6 ms·

Hahaha people talking about ethics are silly ... This is business in a market, potentially, at least 3x bigger than the current biggest market! Are you nuts? Ev

by gdsdfe 8y ago

Hahaha people talking about ethics are silly ... This is business in a market, potentially, at least 3x bigger than the current biggest market! Are you nuts? Everybody's gonna do business in China! Everybody! In some form or shape.

jumelles 8y ago
Caring about human rights is silly?
- shard972 8y ago
  If you want to make it in China then yea, you probably shouldn't be too hung up on human rights. It's not some universal concept that has applied throughout the world for our existence so it's quite rude to pretend like China has to bow to these systems of human rights we developed without china's input.
  - IntelMiner 8y ago
    The Chinese government is not the Chinese people I don't think the Chinese people approve of many of the things their government does. Though censorship makes dissent harder to "prove"
    - shard972 8y ago
      A lot of americans don't approve of many things the government does but we don't call them a dictatorship oppressing the people. Plenty of western countries are involved in censorship on a smaller scale but that's not considered evil and suppressing the true views of the public. One easy example being mega projects, here in the west we seem to wax poetic constantly about returning to the good old days where a nation could undertake mega-projects and yet china just keeps doing them faster than we can keep track. I'm sure many westerners and chinese both want to see these things happen and yet they are doing it and we aren't? Is that some proof that we are suppressed citizens? Or maybe its a bit more nuanced.
      - adventured 8y ago
        > but we don't call them a dictatorship oppressing the people. That's because there's an actual definition of dictatorship. China is a dictatorship, the US is not. > Plenty of western countries are involved in censorship on a smaller scale but that's not considered evil and suppressing the true views of the public. Yes it is.
      - hueving 8y ago
        >A lot of americans don't approve of many things the government does but we don't call them a dictatorship oppressing the people. Because the government doesn't block you from saying those things. It's concerning to me that you don't appear to know what the definition of 'oppression' or 'dictatorship' is. >One easy example being mega projects, here in the west we seem to wax poetic constantly about returning to the good old days where a nation could undertake mega-projects and yet china just keeps doing them faster than we can keep track. When you throw enough suffering and death at a project, you can build quickly. Nobody with a brain is suggesting we do projects the same way we did the hoover dam that resulted in silicosis.
  - jumelles 8y ago
    The very idea of a right is that it is universal.
  - wggl 8y ago
    > It’s not some universal concept > it’s quite rude > we developed without china’s input It is hard to argue that detaining 1 million people for their beliefs[0] and then torturing them[1] is justifiable by cultural relativism. Or massacring people for that matter[2]. At that point you could argue for any atrocity. It’s not rude it’s basic humanity. It’s not just completely reasonable to ask a government in charge of more than a billion people to please exercise basic humane standards, it’s morally atrocious to suggest otherwise. The Chinese government deserves all they criticism they get for what they have done and continue to do, and it’s arguable that we in the west deserve criticism for enabling them. [0] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-45147972 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-45147972 [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/former-inmates-of-chinas-muslim-re-education-camps-tell-of-brainwashing-torture/2018/05/16/32b330e8-5850-11e8-8b92-45fdd7aaef3c_story.html?utm_term=.4a132a1c28f1 https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/former-inm... [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_protests_of_1989 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_protests_of...
    - enwa 8y ago
      Most Americans just don't care. In a few years it will be as unpopular to talk about China's exploits as it is talking about Israel-Palestine. You can argue that Europeans don't care either, but at least the work culture and society is different enough from China to make the latter unappealing. Much less so for Americans.
  - hueving 8y ago
    You don't need input to realize that the government oppression of millions of individuals is wrong.
  - nl 8y ago
    It's not some universal concept that has applied throughout the world for our existence so it's quite rude to pretend like China has to bow to these systems of human rights we developed without china's input. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights[1] was signed by China and Dr. Peng-chun Chang (who was Chinese) took part in its drafting[2]. Which part of it do you think China doesn't officially agree with? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human_Rights https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human... [2] http://www.un.org/en/sections/universal-declaration/drafters-universal-declaration-human-rights/index.html http://www.un.org/en/sections/universal-declaration/drafters...
  - tim333 8y ago
    Maybe it's rude to the Chinese leadership but the ordinary people there probably quite like having rights.
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  Caring about human rights is not silly. Expecting capitalists (the economic class, not the ideological faction) to put human rights over returns on capital is, if not silly, at least naively optimistic.
  - jumelles 8y ago
    That's why we speak out (like this!) and force them to do the right thing. As I've said elsewhere, there are things more important than profit. Companies that disagree ought to be boycotted. Maybe that's naive. It's still the right thing to do. No amount of money can shift what's right and wrong.
    - remir 8y ago
      there are things more important than profit I don't think our civilization has suffered enough to really understand that. The current state of the environment is a good example.
    - taobility 8y ago
      You can work for fun or charity, but you can't and shouldn't force anyone else do the same thing. That's called moral abduction.
- gdsdfe 8y ago
  That's not what I am saying ... It's silly to think that 'investors' will ignore such a giant opportunity just because there's human rights issues. It's just naive!
  - nojvek 8y ago
    Yes but this is not just some random investor. This taints the brand that is YC. The statement they are making is “we don’t care about oppressive governments and ethics. As long as we’re churning out billion dollar unicorns, we’ll invest in anything”. I have a lot of respect for China, I also know China may be the most likely to use AI against their citizens to suppress them. Do YC funded companies really want to enable that? What does YC really stand for?
    - gdsdfe 8y ago
      Yeah this is YC as you're saying ... They're not gonna be left behind. Hurting their brand might be a risk that they can mitigate but not investing in China is not going to bring it democracy.
- europeanperson 8y ago
  It is if you apply it to China and not to the U.S.
seanmcdirmid 8y ago
> Everybody's gonna do business in China! Everybody! In some form or shape. Well, if China lets them.
- gdsdfe 8y ago
  It will with time, once they have a stronger middle class with a better purchasing power.
Grue3 8y ago
People probably said the same about Nazi Germany at some point. Not even Godwining, they have actual concentration camps over there.
kryptiskt 8y ago
The rest of the world is big enough for me.
- xhinker 8y ago
  the rest of the world don't have a unified market as big as China, that is root cause. the same law, the same government, 0 tariff between provinces, and the same language, all of these properties lead to one thing. extremely low cost of products which is Competitiveness.

by gdsdfe 8y ago

jumelles 8y ago

Caring about human rights is silly?

shard972 8y ago
If you want to make it in China then yea, you probably shouldn't be too hung up on human rights. It's not some universal concept that has applied throughout the world for our existence so it's quite rude to pretend like China has to bow to these systems of human rights we developed without china's input.
- IntelMiner 8y ago
  The Chinese government is not the Chinese people I don't think the Chinese people approve of many of the things their government does. Though censorship makes dissent harder to "prove"
  - shard972 8y ago
    A lot of americans don't approve of many things the government does but we don't call them a dictatorship oppressing the people. Plenty of western countries are involved in censorship on a smaller scale but that's not considered evil and suppressing the true views of the public. One easy example being mega projects, here in the west we seem to wax poetic constantly about returning to the good old days where a nation could undertake mega-projects and yet china just keeps doing them faster than we can keep track. I'm sure many westerners and chinese both want to see these things happen and yet they are doing it and we aren't? Is that some proof that we are suppressed citizens? Or maybe its a bit more nuanced.
    - adventured 8y ago
      > but we don't call them a dictatorship oppressing the people. That's because there's an actual definition of dictatorship. China is a dictatorship, the US is not. > Plenty of western countries are involved in censorship on a smaller scale but that's not considered evil and suppressing the true views of the public. Yes it is.
    - hueving 8y ago
      >A lot of americans don't approve of many things the government does but we don't call them a dictatorship oppressing the people. Because the government doesn't block you from saying those things. It's concerning to me that you don't appear to know what the definition of 'oppression' or 'dictatorship' is. >One easy example being mega projects, here in the west we seem to wax poetic constantly about returning to the good old days where a nation could undertake mega-projects and yet china just keeps doing them faster than we can keep track. When you throw enough suffering and death at a project, you can build quickly. Nobody with a brain is suggesting we do projects the same way we did the hoover dam that resulted in silicosis.
- jumelles 8y ago
  The very idea of a right is that it is universal.
- wggl 8y ago
  > It’s not some universal concept > it’s quite rude > we developed without china’s input It is hard to argue that detaining 1 million people for their beliefs[0] and then torturing them[1] is justifiable by cultural relativism. Or massacring people for that matter[2]. At that point you could argue for any atrocity. It’s not rude it’s basic humanity. It’s not just completely reasonable to ask a government in charge of more than a billion people to please exercise basic humane standards, it’s morally atrocious to suggest otherwise. The Chinese government deserves all they criticism they get for what they have done and continue to do, and it’s arguable that we in the west deserve criticism for enabling them. [0] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-45147972 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-45147972 [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/former-inmates-of-chinas-muslim-re-education-camps-tell-of-brainwashing-torture/2018/05/16/32b330e8-5850-11e8-8b92-45fdd7aaef3c_story.html?utm_term=.4a132a1c28f1 https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/former-inm... [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_protests_of_1989 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_protests_of...
  - enwa 8y ago
    Most Americans just don't care. In a few years it will be as unpopular to talk about China's exploits as it is talking about Israel-Palestine. You can argue that Europeans don't care either, but at least the work culture and society is different enough from China to make the latter unappealing. Much less so for Americans.
- hueving 8y ago
  You don't need input to realize that the government oppression of millions of individuals is wrong.
- nl 8y ago
  It's not some universal concept that has applied throughout the world for our existence so it's quite rude to pretend like China has to bow to these systems of human rights we developed without china's input. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights[1] was signed by China and Dr. Peng-chun Chang (who was Chinese) took part in its drafting[2]. Which part of it do you think China doesn't officially agree with? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human_Rights https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human... [2] http://www.un.org/en/sections/universal-declaration/drafters-universal-declaration-human-rights/index.html http://www.un.org/en/sections/universal-declaration/drafters...
- tim333 8y ago
  Maybe it's rude to the Chinese leadership but the ordinary people there probably quite like having rights.
dragonwriter 8y ago
Caring about human rights is not silly. Expecting capitalists (the economic class, not the ideological faction) to put human rights over returns on capital is, if not silly, at least naively optimistic.
- jumelles 8y ago
  That's why we speak out (like this!) and force them to do the right thing. As I've said elsewhere, there are things more important than profit. Companies that disagree ought to be boycotted. Maybe that's naive. It's still the right thing to do. No amount of money can shift what's right and wrong.
  - remir 8y ago
    there are things more important than profit I don't think our civilization has suffered enough to really understand that. The current state of the environment is a good example.
  - taobility 8y ago
    You can work for fun or charity, but you can't and shouldn't force anyone else do the same thing. That's called moral abduction.
gdsdfe 8y ago
That's not what I am saying ... It's silly to think that 'investors' will ignore such a giant opportunity just because there's human rights issues. It's just naive!
- nojvek 8y ago
  Yes but this is not just some random investor. This taints the brand that is YC. The statement they are making is “we don’t care about oppressive governments and ethics. As long as we’re churning out billion dollar unicorns, we’ll invest in anything”. I have a lot of respect for China, I also know China may be the most likely to use AI against their citizens to suppress them. Do YC funded companies really want to enable that? What does YC really stand for?
  - gdsdfe 8y ago
    Yeah this is YC as you're saying ... They're not gonna be left behind. Hurting their brand might be a risk that they can mitigate but not investing in China is not going to bring it democracy.
europeanperson 8y ago
It is if you apply it to China and not to the U.S.

seanmcdirmid 8y ago

> Everybody's gonna do business in China! Everybody! In some form or shape. Well, if China lets them.

gdsdfe 8y ago
It will with time, once they have a stronger middle class with a better purchasing power.

Grue3 8y ago

People probably said the same about Nazi Germany at some point. Not even Godwining, they have actual concentration camps over there.

kryptiskt 8y ago

The rest of the world is big enough for me.

xhinker 8y ago
the rest of the world don't have a unified market as big as China, that is root cause. the same law, the same government, 0 tariff between provinces, and the same language, all of these properties lead to one thing. extremely low cost of products which is Competitiveness.