20 ms·

YC China and Qi Lu

351 points by sama 8y ago

vorg 8y ago
> YC has been very successful in the world by believing that hackers – not businesspeople – can build the biggest companies. Virtually every non-technologist businessperson who becomes a manager in the IT industry will present themselves as a technologist. They will usually have some real technical people at their beck and call to help with the stuff they can't fake.
joshu 8y ago
Congrats Qi!
jn1234 8y ago
What will be the Code of Ethics? https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-monitoring-insight/from-laboratory-in-far-west-chinas-surveillance-state-spreads-quietly-idUSKBN1KZ0R3 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-monitoring-insight/...
- Leary 8y ago
  Given the sensitive nature of this topic, I propose HackerNews be given the authority of drafting the Code of Ethics for YC China in order to ensure democratic accountability. Posters could nominate particular statues/principles they like and the community at large can vote on them.
  - jbigelow76 8y ago
    The HackerNews crowd isn't even allowed to make comments on YC seeded company job postings, I wouldn't hold your breath on being able to craft a sister company's code of ethics.
- est 8y ago
  Since when Code of Ethics equals to McCarthyism?
  - friedman23 8y ago
    Doing business in China is unethical.
    - toomuchtodo 8y ago
      Doing business with the Chinese government is unethical. Doing business with Chinese entrepreneurs and providing services to the Chinese people is a humanitarian imperative. Without going to far into the political weeds, the US has never delivered freedom effectively at the end of a gun, but rather through McDonalds and Coca Cola.
      - friedman23 8y ago
        All Chinese businesses are subordinate to the PRC. It is my personal opinion that we have reached a point of technological progress where totalitarian control of massive states such as China is simply possible when it wasn't a few decades prior to the advent of modern computing. I do not have any faith that any amount of trade with China will cause the government to reform in any meaningful way and I'm confident that China will remain a dictatorship a thousand years from now.
      - jumelles 8y ago
        > Doing business with Chinese entrepreneurs and providing services to the Chinese people is a humanitarian imperative. There is literally no way to do this without the cooperation of the Chinese government.
        toomuchtodo 8y ago
        Than you be pragmatic and make concessions.
        jumelles 8y ago
        We should never, ever make concessions when it comes to human rights.
helloguys021 8y ago
I'm currently living in Shanghai and I want to work for YC China. Will YC China or Qi Lu post any job openings somewhere?
- client4 8y ago
  Hey! I'm in Shanghai a lot and love meeting up with other tech people if you're interested in a drink.
tomglynch 8y ago
Very exciting to have such a huge presence opening YC China. Keen to see what comes out of this!
- dmix 8y ago
  A response to the press is not legalese.
mattigames 8y ago
I assume companies with websites censored by the great firewall won't have access to YC China funding?
kazinator 8y ago
> Hand-held devices allow police to quickly check the content of phones on the street. That's amazing to anyone who has struggled to connect an Android device to Windows via USB just to access a file or two.
seanmcdirmid 8y ago
Ah, this is the same Qi Lu who was basically responsible for the creation of Bing, then got Office and AI in a reorg, and then somehow got pushed out by Satya and went on to be CTO of Baidu for awhile. The YCR connection makes sense, since he has a lot of experience in AI where much of YCR is now at, but it will be interesting to see how he will interact with Bret Victor's group. Are they going to start a YC-like incubator in China? It will be interesting to see how this compares to Kai Fu's Innovation Works.
- curiousDog 8y ago
  Bing really is a pile of garbage though (perhaps a little better these days but no where near as good as Google). I'm surprised he wasn't fired sooner. Was he friends with Ballmer?
  - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
    Qi was actually one of the better SVPs at Microsoft, I think he was even on the list for the CEO spot that Satya got. He was given an almost impossible task in competing with Google basically from scratch. Ya, he didn't completely succeed, but that isn't very surprising. What happened at the end, I'm not really sure. I was pretty surprised when I heard he was gone with Harry Shum taking over most of what he was in charge of.
    - Analemma_ 8y ago
      (I worked at Bing when this all went down.) It was a strange departure. He apparently got in some kind of cycling accident and took medical leave from Microsoft for recovery, but then just a few months later he was a senior executive at Baidu. Not sure what was up with that. But contra the GP, the general opinion both during and after Lu's tenure was that he did a good job. It took a while, but Bing is profitable now, and he did a lot to get that in motion. I imagine it can't be psychologically easy to run an unprofitable department for years with the eye on long-term strategy, especially in the Ballmer era, but he pulled it off. Bing is not the disaster money pit that a lot of HN assumes it to be.
vadym909 8y ago
Nice move YC. I know Qi is highly regarded by Chinese students. He seems like a corporate vs startup guy though, so while I trust he has great access to talent and connections in industry and Govt, I'm not sure he's the best person to mentor a scrappy startup. Hope he has a good support cast.
- rqs 8y ago
  Given the previous information, he's a capable person [0], and more importantly, "honest and dedicated to work" (Originally: 自去年一月陆奇加入百度以来，公司发生了很多积极向上的变化。我和广大同学一样，都对他正直的人品、忘我的工作精神和在技术及商业领域的敏锐洞察力印象深刻……) [1]. So I guess I'm not join the team of doubt this time for now. (Before you click, grab yourself a translator first) [0] https://www.zhihu.com/question/277693647/answer/396254674 https://www.zhihu.com/question/277693647/answer/396254674 [1] https://www.pingwest.com/a/167091 https://www.pingwest.com/a/167091
  - pl1234 8y ago
    "honest and dedicated to work" Honest? Has he denounced China's human rights violations?
- erikb 8y ago
  The traditional startup also doesn't really work out in China due to the government wanting to be involved. It's much more suit driven over there and not possible just with t-shirts.
echevil 8y ago
Really excited to see how YC model would work out in China!
- Markoff 8y ago
  it won't, there are close to zero IT companies that cracked Chinese market
contingencies 8y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi_Lu_(computer_scientist) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi_Lu_(computer_scientist)
jumelles 8y ago
YC's got a very, very fine line to tread if they're serious about China - with its limits on human rights and authoritarian tendencies, the Chinese government is absolutely not to be trusted. I worry about what sort of concessions tech companies have made and will make to gain access to the Chinese market.
- throwaway_9575 8y ago
  I don't mean to be blunt, but YC, as an institution, doesn't really care about anything besides money. They're venture capitalists. That the CCP is putting Muslims in high-tech concentration camps is of little concern compared to how much they think they can make in the Chinese market.
  - jumelles 8y ago
    That's why I feel compelled to speak up about this. There are things more important than money.
    - shard972 8y ago
      Not sure why that parent comment was flagged, he was just pointing out the fact that companies value profit, everything else is optional. Is that not allowed to be uttered around here anymore?
      - jumelles 8y ago
        There was also something about "Muslims in concentration camps" - but there's another link in this very thread talking about how Uyghurs are being put in camps by the PRC, so I'm not sure either how speaking truth to power got flagged.
- crb002 8y ago
  https://thediplomat.com/2018/05/uyghurs-victims-of-21st-century-concentration-camps/ https://thediplomat.com/2018/05/uyghurs-victims-of-21st-cent...
echan00 8y ago
Key question: will Chinese startups be required to register as US companies :)
- seanmcdirmid 8y ago
  I'm betting that they will be using Chinese capital for Chinese start-ups, so there won't be any weird foreign registration requirement. It makes more sense because China still has a lot of money sloshing around looking for something to do, and YC China will look appealing in that regard, so no FDI will be needed. But that is just a guess by an amateur, we have to wait to see how this turns out.
- echevil 8y ago
  Nope. There’re tons of Chinese startups already with or without YC. Would US startups be required to register as Chinese companies if they receive Chinese VC money?
  - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
    The US is open to arbitrary FDI so it doesn't matter. China's laws are more...complicated. For example, you can't give stock options to non-Chinese employees if your company is Chinese and not already listed, see https://www.chinalawblog.com/2018/03/china-scam-week-part-4-the-china-stock-option-scam.html https://www.chinalawblog.com/2018/03/china-scam-week-part-4-.... I'm not aware of any foreign funded startups in China currently. I mean, there must be some small players with private foreign funding, but it is so easy to get Chinese funding I'm not sure why anyone would even bother.
    - bgee 8y ago
      Most big tech companies (Baidu, Tencent, Alibaba) in China has received foreign funding when they were "startups". See VIE Structure [0] (in Chinese). [0]: https://www.zhihu.com/question/19634851/answer/13095653 https://www.zhihu.com/question/19634851/answer/13095653
telltruth 8y ago
Sam, this exec BS doesn't look good on you. If Qi Lu is the "one of the most impressive technologiest" you have known then I would say you can be impressed pretty easily. Qi Lu is the guy who couldn't do a squat with Yahoo so he jumped ship to Microsoft. His main achievement there was to rename their product to "Bing". Finally not getting anywhere for almost a decade, he finally got pushed out and so he jumped on the Baidu train to get dip in to Chinese internet boom. Again no special achievements whatsoever at Baidu and virtually everything he touched was half assed and pure PR vaporware. You also have to remember this guy is not technologist. He doesn't write code, do design or understand modern software architecture. He is a suit which big multinationals need for a public face, sales and marketing purposes. So let's be honest here. YC needs to tap in to Chinese market's booming startup scene. You can't do that without having native Chinese guy leading these effort. You ideally need a suit who has network and hopefully also understands the little details, you know, like code. But you got only the suit who has network. You will try to do best with what you got. That we get it.
- sb8244 8y ago
  I'm not going to comment on the rest of your comment, but I found the first 2 sentences to be pretty out of context. "one of the most impressive technologists" is much different than "most impressive technologist". Removing the plural completely changes the meaning of that statement.
  - telltruth 8y ago
    Sure, man. Fixed it.
- lunaru 8y ago
  When it comes to navigating China and your choices are Suit, Network, or Code, you take the Network every time. Alcohol tolerance is a plus.
  - client4 8y ago
    Please tell me more about this drinking game ;)
claydavisss 8y ago
Another me-too move by YC. Does anyone actually expect anything to come of this?
- erikb 8y ago
  Well, they are now an established business, the growth of US startups has dwindled. So what do you expect?
gdsdfe 8y ago
Hahaha people talking about ethics are silly ... This is business in a market, potentially, at least 3x bigger than the current biggest market! Are you nuts? Everybody's gonna do business in China! Everybody! In some form or shape.
- jumelles 8y ago
  Caring about human rights is silly?
  - shard972 8y ago
    If you want to make it in China then yea, you probably shouldn't be too hung up on human rights. It's not some universal concept that has applied throughout the world for our existence so it's quite rude to pretend like China has to bow to these systems of human rights we developed without china's input.
    - IntelMiner 8y ago
      The Chinese government is not the Chinese people I don't think the Chinese people approve of many of the things their government does. Though censorship makes dissent harder to "prove"
      - shard972 8y ago
        A lot of americans don't approve of many things the government does but we don't call them a dictatorship oppressing the people. Plenty of western countries are involved in censorship on a smaller scale but that's not considered evil and suppressing the true views of the public. One easy example being mega projects, here in the west we seem to wax poetic constantly about returning to the good old days where a nation could undertake mega-projects and yet china just keeps doing them faster than we can keep track. I'm sure many westerners and chinese both want to see these things happen and yet they are doing it and we aren't? Is that some proof that we are suppressed citizens? Or maybe its a bit more nuanced.
bing_dai 8y ago
I'm wondering which city will the YC China be based in? Certainly one of Beijing/Shenzhen/Shanghai I would guess.
- seanmcdirmid 8y ago
  Beijing would make sense for political reasons, and it also has a strong software culture. Shenzhen for hardware, and maybe Tencent. Shanghai...would be the dark horse in that race, but it is the NYC of China. I wish they would pick a western city, like Chengdu or Kunming...to become the "san francisco" of China. But there is really not much in those places to work with.
  - Jommi 8y ago
    Chengdu would be quite an interesting pick. There's a lot of startup activity there for sure, and it's really far from Beijing.
    - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
      Well, I would prefer Kunming because of the weather, but less activity than Chengdu or Chongqing.
maxwin 8y ago
Looking forward to YC South East Asia or YC Asia. Don't forget us.
- repsilat 8y ago
  I don't think it'll happen. If you're from New York or Canada or Europe etc, the advice is "Come to SV for the incubator, start an American company, and run it from back home in the long run if you don't/can't move here." That doesn't work so well for China because of capital controls and because the Chinese business environment is so hostile to foreign companies.
ulfw 8y ago
I find it funny how YC is focusing only on places where the majority of the world won’t or can’t easily work (US visa policy is atrocious and getting worse every year + raising xenophobia in recent times) and China isn’t an easy country to navigate if you don’t speak Mandarin, let alone succeed in as a foreigner (for a variety of reasons). Asia and Europe are big places as are Canada and Australia. Time to think broader than just US+China!
- seanmcdirmid 8y ago
  Mandarin isn't strictly necessary to live in China. Plenty of my laowai colleagues only knew a few words and got along just fine in a tier one Beijing, which admittedly is a bit behind Shanghai and Shenzhen. The only thing that really drove us out was the pollution (a huge problem in Beijing that is supposedly finally getting better). Given the US visa policy, as bad as it is, still attracts far more many foreigners than China, at least. More than most countries actually even by per capita measures.
  - telltruth 8y ago
    > Mandarin isn't strictly necessary to live in China Basic question: what do you do in China for browsing, emails and maps? I suppose Google doesn't work there and all the local services would be in Mandarin, no? When I travel I use Google search, emails, maps extensively but I have no clue what would I do in China. Also FB and Twitter also likely won't be accessible. So how do I even keep touch with folks outside China, especially if I don't know Mandarin?
    - lhl 8y ago
      For a long while shadowsocks/shadowsocksr (the latter being more actively developed) has been preferred way to bypass the GFW although what works is constantly changing. This was an interesting write up passed a couple years ago where a dev tries out various methods for bypass on a China trip: http://blog.zorinaq.com/my-experience-with-the-great-firewall-of-china/ http://blog.zorinaq.com/my-experience-with-the-great-firewal...
    - 8y ago
microdrum 8y ago
Will this be located in the independent sovereign nation of Taiwan so as to have the benefit of freedom of thought, religion, the rule of law, and private property?
- cercatrova 8y ago
  Of course not, it will be where the markets are, mainland China
- j16sdiz 8y ago
  Of course not. Since when freedom worth money?
j16sdiz 8y ago
Looking forward to YC North Korea
sealon 8y ago
赞
kaptain 8y ago
The political concerns are real. It's too cynical to say that YC just cares about money, though. There would be better ways to create an incubator than to do it like this, if that were the case. One obvious question that hasn't been raised is: "Why not base it in Taiwan?" It's still "China" (for some definition of China), you can still get access to the talent that you want (you just have to try a little harder), and you could still get access to the market you're targeting. It's not going to be easy, but it would better address the political and humanitarian issues raised.
- tanilama 8y ago
  > and you could still get access to the market you're targeting. This is not true. Taiwanese investment in China is considered 'external'. And Taiwan's talent reserve is no way to be considered as on par against mainland China. But that is not the point either, I think YC just wants an entity in China, not for the talents, but for the market. Under the risk of being downvoted, I have to say China has created some world class startups in the past decade, only second to US.
  - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
    China has startups, they are definitely many high in quality, but they aren’t really world class in terms of talent used (almost completely Chinese) and markets targeted (ditto). China will have trouble getting its tech companies to compete abroad when they have closed off their own market so much. Likewise, until China embraces immigration rather than emigration, talent is unlikely to flock to China in any significant numbers.
    - tanilama 8y ago
      Worldclass valuation maybe? Might be more controversial to say, but when it comes to internet, there is China and the rest of world, those are 2 disconnected system, quite literally. So I don't think YC China is priortized to create companies for the whole world, probably just companies that would operate mainly in China, built and run by the locals.
angersock 8y ago
So, how much money is there in PRC contracts for surveillance and social credit software? For reference, this is the market they're excited about joining: http://time.com/5366225/china-uighurs-detention-report/ http://time.com/5366225/china-uighurs-detention-report/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/02/china-surveillance/552203/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/02/ch... https://techcrunch.com/2017/12/13/china-cctv-bbc-reporter/ https://techcrunch.com/2017/12/13/china-cctv-bbc-reporter/
j8hn 8y ago
Someone told me that a webpage with the following would get your internet access cut off in China: June 4th Tiananmen Square Massacre. Can someone translate to Mandarin please.
- Jommi 8y ago
  Not true
- seanmcdirmid 8y ago
  It used to be that if you searched for some bad things in google.cn or wikipedia you would get put in a penalty box for 5 or so minutes where your internet wouldn't work. Two things stopped this: first, everyone moved over to https so ISPs couldn't tell what you were doing anymore; and google was eventually blocked anyways. Now, China solely relies on blocking entire websites or relying on compliance of services. So Google is blocked, while Bing will actually harmonize their search results in China (the search will still turn things up, but some results might be hidden).
nullifidian 8y ago
>to ensure that the benefits of that are fairly spread throughout humanity. What about Uighur internment camps YC money will finance through taxes?
- hungryhobo 8y ago
  what about the millions of people that have been lifted out of poverty in China? they don't count?
  - ForrestN 8y ago
    This is a false choice—are you saying that internment camps were required to lift millions out of poverty in China?
    - hungryhobo 8y ago
      no, i'm simply stating things that the tax money have gone to for the benefit of chinese citizens, that most people here seem to ignore.
  - Markoff 8y ago
    are you really trying to say they wouldn't be lifted with different government? i tend to believe living standard of Chinese people would be higher if not for CCP, these guys can't manage basic things like overcrowded public transport, health insurance pretty much doesn't exist, schools are inaccessible etc. you would really need to try hard to be worse than them
- est 8y ago
  yeah what about US corporations exploiting cheap Chinese child labor as a manufacturing base.
  - 394549 8y ago
    >>> to ensure that the benefits of that are fairly spread throughout humanity. >> What about Uighur internment camps YC money will finance through taxes? > yeah what about US corporations exploiting cheap Chinese child labor as a manufacturing base. I don't think the grandparent poster is OK with that either.
ForrestN 8y ago
It’s troubling that this statement is so overtly unserious. Has YC and its surrounding culture become so insulated that they cannot see the obviously self-defeating through-line in this statement? “Our mission at YC is to enable more innovation than any other company in the world, and to ensure that the benefits of that are fairly spread throughout humanity.” Do you really think it’s possible to ensure that the benefits of innovation are spread fairly while simultaneously partnering with an oppressive, cruel government in order to create vast pools of wealth controlled by a tiny subset of individuals allied with that government? I can understand why someone would try to get as rich as possible and would turn a blind eye toward obvious moral compromise. I can also understand the utilitarian impulse to “ensure that the benefits of [innovation] are fairly spread throughout humanity.” But I can’t understand ignorance of the wild contradictions between those two “missions.” If you want to spread innovation equally, you should be working to support dissident voices in China and you should be putting 95% of you and your associates’ vast personal wealth behind the political project of reversing Republican-engineered inequality here at home. Helping people in China who you deem most likely to succeed (working in harmony with the government, of course) to become even more successful is not, in fact, helping to make the distribution of benefits among humanity more fair. TL:DR — Choose only one: fairness among humans or the accumulation of vast personal wealth by collaborating with governments that brutally oppress their own citizens.
- justicezyx 8y ago
  There are majority of society and economic activity that are neutral to policitics. Why cannot YC improve invocation by focusing on those areas?! If your dad said harsh words to you, are you going to claim that you are made inferior to normal citizen or you are working with a repressive parent?
  - mattigames 8y ago
    When you help a country get richer and that country has a history of human right violations you are aiding the tyrants running the country even if you declare yourself "neutral to politics" and even if you have the best of intentions.
lawnchair_larry 8y ago
YC China? Why would you even consider this? Sam has lost his mind.
- apta 8y ago
  Why enable them even more? People have to watch out about what China is doing. Unfortunately money speaks.
philip1209 8y ago
What effect does switching from Baidu to YC have on Qi's social credit system rating?
- hungryhobo 8y ago
  honestly i thought HN is better than this.
  - client4 8y ago
    Why? Are you willing to elaborate? This type of comment really doesn't add value to the conversation.
    - hungryhobo 8y ago
      Working with YC wouldn't have much effect on Qi's social ratings. Sorry I thought people had common sense
- est 8y ago
  Does any Chinese internet user ever tell a single story that has a exact score of the so called "social credit system"? Have you ever wondered why?
- nathanyukai 8y ago
  Currently there is no Social credit system implemented by government in use. Alibaba have a system but it's not gonna affect you outside of their products. Even if there is such system by government, It's not going to have any major effect. It's supposed to be used to punish illegal behaviours etc.
jmspring 8y ago
Interesting to see YC embrace someone who went on leave at MSFT due to injuries of a bike accident... or so the news claimed. Yet popped up at Baidu/etc. Next up YC will hire the Amazon Exec that puffed himself up and was fired before he joined Uber?
- jmspring 8y ago
  For reference - https://www.recode.net/2016/9/29/13103352/microsoft-qi-lu-to-exit https://www.recode.net/2016/9/29/13103352/microsoft-qi-lu-to...
deleted 8y ago
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google_censors 8y ago
It's amazing that a company that Paul Graham co-founded is getting into bed with an authoritarian government notorious for its human rights abuses. To succeed in China you can't go against the government. So is he going to be pushing as hard for political change in China as he is in the US, or will he remain silent as his company reaps the profits?
- singularity2001 8y ago
  Believing in his good morals, the underlying hope might be to achieve change through subversion: If YC becomes popular in in China, people might visit news.ycombinator.com and find very sane liberal thinking and many shocking truths about their country.
  - enwa 8y ago
    Much more likely that anything negative about China will be deemed political, like many other subjects have been in the past, and flagged off the site. That is largely how the Chinese Internet works anyways.
  - ebbv 8y ago
    Not gonna happen. This site would be banned or censored.
  - zavi 8y ago
    Ah yes, the superior thinking of top minds that frequent news.ycombinator.com
  - bitcurious 8y ago
    Reddit was blocked by the Chinese firewall this month. The suspected reason is discussion of the Uyghur concentration camps. Shocking truths don’t last on the Chinese internet. When YC is invested in China they won’t last on this website either.
    - pl1234 8y ago
      They already don't last.
fhe 8y ago
this is a very interesting move by YC. I can't wait to see if the "YC methodology" will work in China's startup scene. China's startup culture is notably different from Silicon Valley.
ksec 8y ago
I guess that pretty much leaves out Hong Kong, Macau then? The interview [1] by 36kr does a much better job of introduction and vision he has for YC China. Unfortunately it is in Chinese only. [1] https://36kr.com/p/5148299.html https://36kr.com/p/5148299.html
- vincvinc 8y ago
  Interesting! Unfortunately it doesn't seem to say where YC China would be based. Some interesting snippets (G Translated): Lu Qi: YC China's new business will include 1) business incubation, 2) talent training, 3) research and 4) public welfare. These are all in a way that Lu Qi's plan will operate in an unprecedented way. He wants more than just new technology. Technology is only an ability to change society. He wants to establish a new ecological support for new technology to change the society. That is the correct way to open the new world in his mind. [...] Q: How will YC China start? Lu Qi: Among the four businesses, the first to start is the incubator. Incubation camps are the first attempt at YC localization, but at the same time it draws on the core of YC: 1. The methodology of the incubator process and training content established by Paul Graham; 2. A network of YC alumni with more than 4,000 people. Alumni will help later entrepreneurs, and for Chinese entrepreneurs, alumni networks around the world can set up channels for offshore companies; 3. The YC brand, which is incubated by YC, is equivalent to being recognized and endorsed, and is more likely to be favored by investment institutions. In other respects, YC China may develop its own entrepreneurship curriculum and expect to reverse the influence of American entrepreneurs because I believe that globalization is the best way to innovate. YC China's research institute will be established under the YC Global Research Institute and will establish cooperation with Chinese research institutions. Finally, the charity business is hoping to focus on solving the impact of new technologies on people's employment. However, it is now the first day of the launch of YC China, and everything is still very early. I only have one person now. The most important thing at the moment is recruiting people. [...] Lu Qi: Because we need to build a new innovation ecosystem, so many players with different roles can participate. The first is Chinese investors. Because YC China will be closer to the early projects, it hopes to establish good interaction with Chinese middle and late investors. Also, YC China will also raise funds independently, and I hope to get support from China LP. Second, we and the big companies will also have a lot of cooperation. YC China's investment projects may be acquired, acquired, or serviced by large companies in the later stages. YC China Research Institute will also establish contacts with government or research institutions within the enterprise, and hopes to become China's support for the country to become a big country in innovation. [...] Sam has said on many occasions that 10 companies will reach Google in the next decade, three to four of them will be born in China, and more than 20 years of professional experience tells me that these three or four companies must be Believe in long-term companies.
koolba 8y ago
Is this going to follow the same investment structure as YC “Classic” or will that be changing as well? The amount of cash thrown at a YC company could go a long way in China. Will YC be taking a stand on China’s rampant theft of intellectual property or tacitly encouraging it as part of “being a start up”?
PaulHoule 8y ago
Of all places they could go. China appearing to succeed at a time when democracy is on the ropes is a dangerous trend for democracy. When you import goods from China, you import repression. Short-termed capitalists might think the repression applies just to workers, but China is a country with no human rights, no property rights, no rule of law. The Chinese government reserves the right to take anything you "own" there. Somehow it is a capitalist and communist hell at the same time.
- claydavisss 8y ago
  > When you import goods from China, you import repression can you please tell us where the goods in your home were manufactured? why not start with the ones with the glowing white apple on them? if you won't change, why should anyone else?
  - PaulHoule 8y ago
    I have. I own very little Apple hardware and only because I am a software dev. I certainly buy many things from China because it is hard to never get anything from China, but often you do have a choice. I was at Target, for instance, and I bought a Samsung branded microwave oven from Malaysia which has a 44/100 score from Freedom House as opposed to China which has a 14/100 score. I have also gotten into fixing old toasters and things because I've found that recent models from China are based on inferior technology. When toasters started coming from China they would burn up -- multiple times my mother and law would buy them from Wal*Mart and thought she got a deal but it lastest less than six months. A few years later, Chinese toasters traded toasting speed for safety, then they went from two slots to four slots to make up for lost time. It doesn't help though if you are watching your carbs and want just one or two slices. Old toasters fail in a predictable way and can be repaired easily. It might be true about new toasters but why bother.
    - claydavisss 8y ago
      "very little Apple hardware" still means you own more Apple hardware than 95% of the world's population, including 99% of the people who manufacture it. but it sounds like you have rationalized this somehow, so why shouldn't everyone else?
uRreading2slow 8y ago
That certainly explains the regular silencing of criticism of China on HN. The irony is really something though: http://blog.samaltman.com/e-pur-si-muove http://blog.samaltman.com/e-pur-si-muove > Also, smart people tend to have an allergic reaction to the restriction of ideas, and I’m now seeing many of the smartest people I know move elsewhere. > It is bad for all of us when people can’t say that the world is a sphere, that evolution is real, or that the sun is at the center of the solar system. Or what totalitarianism is, what sociopathy is, what obedience to and identification with abusers is and how it comes about. > This is uncomfortable, but it’s possible we have to allow people to say disparaging things about gay people if we want them to be able to say novel things about physics. But we absolutely cannot quote any of the greats on whose shoulders we stand on -- and mean it, that is, and actually deconstruct the sophistry that is inevitably replied to that. I've had accounts throttled and shadowbanned which had not a single comment below 0, and many upvotes. None of the comments were off-topic or not substantive, it's just the powers that be didn't like them, but could cite no guidelines and refute no points. Come to think of it, it's like all these comments from mods telling people to "not do that here" are really just to give a pretense of transpareny and good faith. From where I'm sitting, it's mostly silent and mostly hypocritical. Maybe we have to allow the KKK to speak their mind. But do NOT talk about moderator action in public. Shedding light on the ways discussion is manipulated would degrade the quality of discussion, you see. So send us an email! Do not talk about votes, don't feel strongly about anything, no matter how solid the argument. Sure, a racist or homophobe might cure cancer, or someone who just uses the word "gay" to mean "lame", or someone with an IQ of 170 but also Tourette's. But you won't hear about it on a site where even a comment starting with something like "this is fucking bullshit!" followed by a detailed explanation of why it is, has to be punished or at least chided a bit. Yes, it would be better without that. But no, that doesn't excuse patting each other on the back for form over content. That's even dumber than swearing. Be that as it may, in the end it'll just eat you whole, spit out nothing, and the people who pretended your shit doesn't stink will turn out to have been your worst enemies all along. Totally apart from being an intelligent or good person, conformity for the sake of conformity and any "hacker spirit" are oil and water, so that really just leaves money and electric toys, with shades of censorship and direct and indirect murder. A little hut of gold on a lot of treacherous sand. The more you sell out, the more you give in, the more good you also can do, the more whistles you can blow, if you should ever grow your spine back. That is the one silver lining, but I won't hold my breath for it. Good luck though, without sarcasm. You do need it, and everybody deserves to come clean. Fuck your fear. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkQEPtOyIHY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkQEPtOyIHY
erdosnew 8y ago
is this the guy that served as former senior VP of Microsoft and later CEO of Baidu?
knuththetruth 8y ago
Is HackerNews accessible from mainland China? There’s been a lot of discussion here recently about Google working with the CCP’s censorship regime, kidnapped dissidents, and the interment of Muslims in Xinjiang. What impact will this move have on the featuring and discussion of these stories?
- justicezyx 8y ago
  Yes. I tried 3 weeks ago, it works. That's the only western site I frequnt and still accessible from inside. My savior!
pnathan 8y ago
This is a recognition that the Chinese world is a rising superpower, both in innovation and in politics. Reminds me to study Mandarin! I wish them all the best, and I hope that the interactions with the great qualities of YC produces an excellent step forward for China and its technologists.
- ProAm 8y ago
  > This is a recognition that the Chinese world is a rising superpower To be fair this has been known since the early 90's maybe even late 80's
  - pnathan 8y ago
    It's a growing recognition - a lot of the 90s commentary around China was, in my recollection, essentially mediated by genteelly stated Yellow Peril racism and fear, much like the 80s fear of Japan. Along with a fair dose of anti-Communism - reading the old Leninist & Stalinist ideas for world revolution into the CCCP. The 2000s have allowed, in my opinion, a more mature understanding of China with less stereotypical hyperbole. I expect part of that is the commercial and cultural interchange, part of that is time, and part of that is the Internet. I also think there's something of an ideas stagflation in the US, against which China might be considered to be a bright spot in the world.
    - ProAm 8y ago
      My perspective and experience was always different. Everyone saw the Chinese manufacturing behemoth starting in the late 80's and early 90's. And as a result we saw a future superpower, at least economically. It did not have anything to do with racism, just money.
- o0-0o 8y ago
  China is 3000 years years old and still considered an emerging market. Why do you think that is?
  - 8y ago
auganov 8y ago
Encourage everyone to boycott YC. I certainly won't be applying again. It's funny to watch YC do this, the one time I was actually invited to interview with YC was when our Chinese co-founder submitted a rather fraudulent[0] application. Angry that we wouldn't participate in his fraud he disappeared and filed a frivolous lawsuit against us (which after many years we won). China's tech growth is built on IP theft and protection by a murderous regime. It's a total antithesis of what made the Valley great. Big numbers put out by some people in China don't change that. If YC plans to invest in local Mainland startups: - ownership is going to tough, likely through dubious trickery - these uncertain legal rights expose YC to strong political pressures, anybody that has vested interest in China knows it - if you want to have a chance at cashing out your better be in good graces with the CCP - unethical behavior of YC pupils is inevitable, a PR nightmare in the making. "it's not the real YC, it's YC China, don't blame us!" You've destroyed your brand, now good luck getting a dollar out of China. And again, a necessary reminder I like to tell everyone: China is actively imprisoning and killing thousands of people for their religious beliefs. Censorship is nothing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Gong_practitioners_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Go... Few people know it, I certainly didn't, I wish I have. Like many I've heard something about the Falun Gong, I've seen the signs but never bothered to looked into it. It's all real, it's big, almost Nazi scale persecution. Please share it with anybody that does business with China. [0] because in China I guess that'd only be normal-fraudulent, right?
- mazerackham 8y ago
  Love when Chinese articles on HN bring out the yellow peril racists!
notbeevil 8y ago
look at the comments. What a fucking greedy world!!!
carapace 8y ago
Not a word, not a breath, of concern in that press release for the ethical aspects of doing business with the Chinese Communists. I think I'm gonna have to close my HN account. I don't even want to be this close to YC anymore. (They practice organlegging over there. Your wait time for a new kidney is so low because there are prisoners kept as involuntary donors. Most of the prisoners are incarcerated due to practicing something called Falun-Gong. They are not violent criminals.)
europeanperson 8y ago
I assume that most of the people that commented on this article live in the U.S. The majority of the world sees the U.S. as the world's biggest threat to world peace, yet I don't see anybody on Hacker News claiming companies shouldn't do business with the U.S. Since the war in Iraq, can we think of something that the Chinese government has done that is worse? I disagree strongly with the notion that the Chinese government's influence on the world is somehow worse than the influence of the U.S. I do think there is something to be said about boycotting governments that abuse human rights, but I think it is hypocritical to think that somehow that doesn't apply to the U.S.
- seanmcdirmid 8y ago
  You really don’t read HN much if you’ve missed all the criticism leveled at the USA.
  - europeanperson 8y ago
    You got me there. It's just that almost all of the current comments talk about how YC shouldn't do business in China, while they're already doing business in the U.S. I just don't see how it is worse, when the U.S. has a far more violent recent past.
    - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
      There are many comments that don’t say that, however. The USA is still a great place to do business if you want to make money. My only arguments against China is that the system is more rigged against foreigners from making money there. The moral arguments are a distraction, though they are mostly true. Yes, China has third world problems, yes the USA has first world problems. Whatever, the world is an imperfect place.
      - europeanperson 8y ago
        I agree.
      - 8y ago
mk926 8y ago
full of keyboard hero
vinceyuan 8y ago
Not sure Qi Lu is the best person for this position. Though Qi was born in China, he almost spent his all career time in the US. Probably the time he worked in China is less than one year. You can't expect this person knows China market, Chinese young people, Chinese companies well, and has connections with people in China gov. And he worked for big companies only (Yahoo, Microsoft, Baidu). He never worked in startups. Can he find and invest good startups? I don't know. Anyway, YC entering China is a good thing. Hope Google search will come back to China soon.

351 points by sama 8y ago

vorg 8y ago

> YC has been very successful in the world by believing that hackers – not businesspeople – can build the biggest companies. Virtually every non-technologist businessperson who becomes a manager in the IT industry will present themselves as a technologist. They will usually have some real technical people at their beck and call to help with the stuff they can't fake.

joshu 8y ago

Congrats Qi!

jn1234 8y ago

What will be the Code of Ethics? https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-monitoring-insight/from-laboratory-in-far-west-chinas-surveillance-state-spreads-quietly-idUSKBN1KZ0R3 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-monitoring-insight/...

Leary 8y ago
Given the sensitive nature of this topic, I propose HackerNews be given the authority of drafting the Code of Ethics for YC China in order to ensure democratic accountability. Posters could nominate particular statues/principles they like and the community at large can vote on them.
- jbigelow76 8y ago
  The HackerNews crowd isn't even allowed to make comments on YC seeded company job postings, I wouldn't hold your breath on being able to craft a sister company's code of ethics.
est 8y ago
Since when Code of Ethics equals to McCarthyism?
- friedman23 8y ago
  Doing business in China is unethical.
  - toomuchtodo 8y ago
    Doing business with the Chinese government is unethical. Doing business with Chinese entrepreneurs and providing services to the Chinese people is a humanitarian imperative. Without going to far into the political weeds, the US has never delivered freedom effectively at the end of a gun, but rather through McDonalds and Coca Cola.
    - friedman23 8y ago
      All Chinese businesses are subordinate to the PRC. It is my personal opinion that we have reached a point of technological progress where totalitarian control of massive states such as China is simply possible when it wasn't a few decades prior to the advent of modern computing. I do not have any faith that any amount of trade with China will cause the government to reform in any meaningful way and I'm confident that China will remain a dictatorship a thousand years from now.
    - jumelles 8y ago
      > Doing business with Chinese entrepreneurs and providing services to the Chinese people is a humanitarian imperative. There is literally no way to do this without the cooperation of the Chinese government.
      - toomuchtodo 8y ago
        Than you be pragmatic and make concessions.
        jumelles 8y ago
        We should never, ever make concessions when it comes to human rights.

helloguys021 8y ago

I'm currently living in Shanghai and I want to work for YC China. Will YC China or Qi Lu post any job openings somewhere?

client4 8y ago
Hey! I'm in Shanghai a lot and love meeting up with other tech people if you're interested in a drink.

tomglynch 8y ago

Very exciting to have such a huge presence opening YC China. Keen to see what comes out of this!

dmix 8y ago
A response to the press is not legalese.

mattigames 8y ago

I assume companies with websites censored by the great firewall won't have access to YC China funding?

kazinator 8y ago

> Hand-held devices allow police to quickly check the content of phones on the street. That's amazing to anyone who has struggled to connect an Android device to Windows via USB just to access a file or two.

seanmcdirmid 8y ago

Ah, this is the same Qi Lu who was basically responsible for the creation of Bing, then got Office and AI in a reorg, and then somehow got pushed out by Satya and went on to be CTO of Baidu for awhile. The YCR connection makes sense, since he has a lot of experience in AI where much of YCR is now at, but it will be interesting to see how he will interact with Bret Victor's group. Are they going to start a YC-like incubator in China? It will be interesting to see how this compares to Kai Fu's Innovation Works.

curiousDog 8y ago
Bing really is a pile of garbage though (perhaps a little better these days but no where near as good as Google). I'm surprised he wasn't fired sooner. Was he friends with Ballmer?
- seanmcdirmid 8y ago
  Qi was actually one of the better SVPs at Microsoft, I think he was even on the list for the CEO spot that Satya got. He was given an almost impossible task in competing with Google basically from scratch. Ya, he didn't completely succeed, but that isn't very surprising. What happened at the end, I'm not really sure. I was pretty surprised when I heard he was gone with Harry Shum taking over most of what he was in charge of.
  - Analemma_ 8y ago
    (I worked at Bing when this all went down.) It was a strange departure. He apparently got in some kind of cycling accident and took medical leave from Microsoft for recovery, but then just a few months later he was a senior executive at Baidu. Not sure what was up with that. But contra the GP, the general opinion both during and after Lu's tenure was that he did a good job. It took a while, but Bing is profitable now, and he did a lot to get that in motion. I imagine it can't be psychologically easy to run an unprofitable department for years with the eye on long-term strategy, especially in the Ballmer era, but he pulled it off. Bing is not the disaster money pit that a lot of HN assumes it to be.

vadym909 8y ago

Nice move YC. I know Qi is highly regarded by Chinese students. He seems like a corporate vs startup guy though, so while I trust he has great access to talent and connections in industry and Govt, I'm not sure he's the best person to mentor a scrappy startup. Hope he has a good support cast.

rqs 8y ago
Given the previous information, he's a capable person [0], and more importantly, "honest and dedicated to work" (Originally: 自去年一月陆奇加入百度以来，公司发生了很多积极向上的变化。我和广大同学一样，都对他正直的人品、忘我的工作精神和在技术及商业领域的敏锐洞察力印象深刻……) [1]. So I guess I'm not join the team of doubt this time for now. (Before you click, grab yourself a translator first) [0] https://www.zhihu.com/question/277693647/answer/396254674 https://www.zhihu.com/question/277693647/answer/396254674 [1] https://www.pingwest.com/a/167091 https://www.pingwest.com/a/167091
- pl1234 8y ago
  "honest and dedicated to work" Honest? Has he denounced China's human rights violations?
erikb 8y ago
The traditional startup also doesn't really work out in China due to the government wanting to be involved. It's much more suit driven over there and not possible just with t-shirts.

echevil 8y ago

Really excited to see how YC model would work out in China!

Markoff 8y ago
it won't, there are close to zero IT companies that cracked Chinese market

contingencies 8y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi_Lu_(computer_scientist) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi_Lu_(computer_scientist)

jumelles 8y ago

YC's got a very, very fine line to tread if they're serious about China - with its limits on human rights and authoritarian tendencies, the Chinese government is absolutely not to be trusted. I worry about what sort of concessions tech companies have made and will make to gain access to the Chinese market.

throwaway_9575 8y ago
I don't mean to be blunt, but YC, as an institution, doesn't really care about anything besides money. They're venture capitalists. That the CCP is putting Muslims in high-tech concentration camps is of little concern compared to how much they think they can make in the Chinese market.
- jumelles 8y ago
  That's why I feel compelled to speak up about this. There are things more important than money.
  - shard972 8y ago
    Not sure why that parent comment was flagged, he was just pointing out the fact that companies value profit, everything else is optional. Is that not allowed to be uttered around here anymore?
    - jumelles 8y ago
      There was also something about "Muslims in concentration camps" - but there's another link in this very thread talking about how Uyghurs are being put in camps by the PRC, so I'm not sure either how speaking truth to power got flagged.
crb002 8y ago
https://thediplomat.com/2018/05/uyghurs-victims-of-21st-century-concentration-camps/ https://thediplomat.com/2018/05/uyghurs-victims-of-21st-cent...

echan00 8y ago

Key question: will Chinese startups be required to register as US companies :)

seanmcdirmid 8y ago
I'm betting that they will be using Chinese capital for Chinese start-ups, so there won't be any weird foreign registration requirement. It makes more sense because China still has a lot of money sloshing around looking for something to do, and YC China will look appealing in that regard, so no FDI will be needed. But that is just a guess by an amateur, we have to wait to see how this turns out.
echevil 8y ago
Nope. There’re tons of Chinese startups already with or without YC. Would US startups be required to register as Chinese companies if they receive Chinese VC money?
- seanmcdirmid 8y ago
  The US is open to arbitrary FDI so it doesn't matter. China's laws are more...complicated. For example, you can't give stock options to non-Chinese employees if your company is Chinese and not already listed, see https://www.chinalawblog.com/2018/03/china-scam-week-part-4-the-china-stock-option-scam.html https://www.chinalawblog.com/2018/03/china-scam-week-part-4-.... I'm not aware of any foreign funded startups in China currently. I mean, there must be some small players with private foreign funding, but it is so easy to get Chinese funding I'm not sure why anyone would even bother.
  - bgee 8y ago
    Most big tech companies (Baidu, Tencent, Alibaba) in China has received foreign funding when they were "startups". See VIE Structure [0] (in Chinese). [0]: https://www.zhihu.com/question/19634851/answer/13095653 https://www.zhihu.com/question/19634851/answer/13095653

telltruth 8y ago

Sam, this exec BS doesn't look good on you. If Qi Lu is the "one of the most impressive technologiest" you have known then I would say you can be impressed pretty easily. Qi Lu is the guy who couldn't do a squat with Yahoo so he jumped ship to Microsoft. His main achievement there was to rename their product to "Bing". Finally not getting anywhere for almost a decade, he finally got pushed out and so he jumped on the Baidu train to get dip in to Chinese internet boom. Again no special achievements whatsoever at Baidu and virtually everything he touched was half assed and pure PR vaporware. You also have to remember this guy is not technologist. He doesn't write code, do design or understand modern software architecture. He is a suit which big multinationals need for a public face, sales and marketing purposes. So let's be honest here. YC needs to tap in to Chinese market's booming startup scene. You can't do that without having native Chinese guy leading these effort. You ideally need a suit who has network and hopefully also understands the little details, you know, like code. But you got only the suit who has network. You will try to do best with what you got. That we get it.

sb8244 8y ago
I'm not going to comment on the rest of your comment, but I found the first 2 sentences to be pretty out of context. "one of the most impressive technologists" is much different than "most impressive technologist". Removing the plural completely changes the meaning of that statement.
- telltruth 8y ago
  Sure, man. Fixed it.
lunaru 8y ago
When it comes to navigating China and your choices are Suit, Network, or Code, you take the Network every time. Alcohol tolerance is a plus.
- client4 8y ago
  Please tell me more about this drinking game ;)

claydavisss 8y ago

Another me-too move by YC. Does anyone actually expect anything to come of this?

erikb 8y ago
Well, they are now an established business, the growth of US startups has dwindled. So what do you expect?

gdsdfe 8y ago

Hahaha people talking about ethics are silly ... This is business in a market, potentially, at least 3x bigger than the current biggest market! Are you nuts? Everybody's gonna do business in China! Everybody! In some form or shape.

jumelles 8y ago
Caring about human rights is silly?
- shard972 8y ago
  If you want to make it in China then yea, you probably shouldn't be too hung up on human rights. It's not some universal concept that has applied throughout the world for our existence so it's quite rude to pretend like China has to bow to these systems of human rights we developed without china's input.
  - IntelMiner 8y ago
    The Chinese government is not the Chinese people I don't think the Chinese people approve of many of the things their government does. Though censorship makes dissent harder to "prove"
    - shard972 8y ago
      A lot of americans don't approve of many things the government does but we don't call them a dictatorship oppressing the people. Plenty of western countries are involved in censorship on a smaller scale but that's not considered evil and suppressing the true views of the public. One easy example being mega projects, here in the west we seem to wax poetic constantly about returning to the good old days where a nation could undertake mega-projects and yet china just keeps doing them faster than we can keep track. I'm sure many westerners and chinese both want to see these things happen and yet they are doing it and we aren't? Is that some proof that we are suppressed citizens? Or maybe its a bit more nuanced.

bing_dai 8y ago

I'm wondering which city will the YC China be based in? Certainly one of Beijing/Shenzhen/Shanghai I would guess.

seanmcdirmid 8y ago
Beijing would make sense for political reasons, and it also has a strong software culture. Shenzhen for hardware, and maybe Tencent. Shanghai...would be the dark horse in that race, but it is the NYC of China. I wish they would pick a western city, like Chengdu or Kunming...to become the "san francisco" of China. But there is really not much in those places to work with.
- Jommi 8y ago
  Chengdu would be quite an interesting pick. There's a lot of startup activity there for sure, and it's really far from Beijing.
  - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
    Well, I would prefer Kunming because of the weather, but less activity than Chengdu or Chongqing.

maxwin 8y ago

Looking forward to YC South East Asia or YC Asia. Don't forget us.

repsilat 8y ago
I don't think it'll happen. If you're from New York or Canada or Europe etc, the advice is "Come to SV for the incubator, start an American company, and run it from back home in the long run if you don't/can't move here." That doesn't work so well for China because of capital controls and because the Chinese business environment is so hostile to foreign companies.

ulfw 8y ago

I find it funny how YC is focusing only on places where the majority of the world won’t or can’t easily work (US visa policy is atrocious and getting worse every year + raising xenophobia in recent times) and China isn’t an easy country to navigate if you don’t speak Mandarin, let alone succeed in as a foreigner (for a variety of reasons). Asia and Europe are big places as are Canada and Australia. Time to think broader than just US+China!

seanmcdirmid 8y ago
Mandarin isn't strictly necessary to live in China. Plenty of my laowai colleagues only knew a few words and got along just fine in a tier one Beijing, which admittedly is a bit behind Shanghai and Shenzhen. The only thing that really drove us out was the pollution (a huge problem in Beijing that is supposedly finally getting better). Given the US visa policy, as bad as it is, still attracts far more many foreigners than China, at least. More than most countries actually even by per capita measures.
- telltruth 8y ago
  > Mandarin isn't strictly necessary to live in China Basic question: what do you do in China for browsing, emails and maps? I suppose Google doesn't work there and all the local services would be in Mandarin, no? When I travel I use Google search, emails, maps extensively but I have no clue what would I do in China. Also FB and Twitter also likely won't be accessible. So how do I even keep touch with folks outside China, especially if I don't know Mandarin?
  - lhl 8y ago
    For a long while shadowsocks/shadowsocksr (the latter being more actively developed) has been preferred way to bypass the GFW although what works is constantly changing. This was an interesting write up passed a couple years ago where a dev tries out various methods for bypass on a China trip: http://blog.zorinaq.com/my-experience-with-the-great-firewall-of-china/ http://blog.zorinaq.com/my-experience-with-the-great-firewal...
  - 8y ago

microdrum 8y ago

Will this be located in the independent sovereign nation of Taiwan so as to have the benefit of freedom of thought, religion, the rule of law, and private property?

cercatrova 8y ago
Of course not, it will be where the markets are, mainland China
j16sdiz 8y ago
Of course not. Since when freedom worth money?

j16sdiz 8y ago

Looking forward to YC North Korea

sealon 8y ago

kaptain 8y ago

The political concerns are real. It's too cynical to say that YC just cares about money, though. There would be better ways to create an incubator than to do it like this, if that were the case. One obvious question that hasn't been raised is: "Why not base it in Taiwan?" It's still "China" (for some definition of China), you can still get access to the talent that you want (you just have to try a little harder), and you could still get access to the market you're targeting. It's not going to be easy, but it would better address the political and humanitarian issues raised.

tanilama 8y ago
> and you could still get access to the market you're targeting. This is not true. Taiwanese investment in China is considered 'external'. And Taiwan's talent reserve is no way to be considered as on par against mainland China. But that is not the point either, I think YC just wants an entity in China, not for the talents, but for the market. Under the risk of being downvoted, I have to say China has created some world class startups in the past decade, only second to US.
- seanmcdirmid 8y ago
  China has startups, they are definitely many high in quality, but they aren’t really world class in terms of talent used (almost completely Chinese) and markets targeted (ditto). China will have trouble getting its tech companies to compete abroad when they have closed off their own market so much. Likewise, until China embraces immigration rather than emigration, talent is unlikely to flock to China in any significant numbers.
  - tanilama 8y ago
    Worldclass valuation maybe? Might be more controversial to say, but when it comes to internet, there is China and the rest of world, those are 2 disconnected system, quite literally. So I don't think YC China is priortized to create companies for the whole world, probably just companies that would operate mainly in China, built and run by the locals.

angersock 8y ago

So, how much money is there in PRC contracts for surveillance and social credit software? For reference, this is the market they're excited about joining: http://time.com/5366225/china-uighurs-detention-report/ http://time.com/5366225/china-uighurs-detention-report/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/02/china-surveillance/552203/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/02/ch... https://techcrunch.com/2017/12/13/china-cctv-bbc-reporter/ https://techcrunch.com/2017/12/13/china-cctv-bbc-reporter/

j8hn 8y ago

Someone told me that a webpage with the following would get your internet access cut off in China: June 4th Tiananmen Square Massacre. Can someone translate to Mandarin please.

Jommi 8y ago
Not true
seanmcdirmid 8y ago
It used to be that if you searched for some bad things in google.cn or wikipedia you would get put in a penalty box for 5 or so minutes where your internet wouldn't work. Two things stopped this: first, everyone moved over to https so ISPs couldn't tell what you were doing anymore; and google was eventually blocked anyways. Now, China solely relies on blocking entire websites or relying on compliance of services. So Google is blocked, while Bing will actually harmonize their search results in China (the search will still turn things up, but some results might be hidden).

nullifidian 8y ago

>to ensure that the benefits of that are fairly spread throughout humanity. What about Uighur internment camps YC money will finance through taxes?

hungryhobo 8y ago
what about the millions of people that have been lifted out of poverty in China? they don't count?
- ForrestN 8y ago
  This is a false choice—are you saying that internment camps were required to lift millions out of poverty in China?
  - hungryhobo 8y ago
    no, i'm simply stating things that the tax money have gone to for the benefit of chinese citizens, that most people here seem to ignore.
- Markoff 8y ago
  are you really trying to say they wouldn't be lifted with different government? i tend to believe living standard of Chinese people would be higher if not for CCP, these guys can't manage basic things like overcrowded public transport, health insurance pretty much doesn't exist, schools are inaccessible etc. you would really need to try hard to be worse than them
est 8y ago
yeah what about US corporations exploiting cheap Chinese child labor as a manufacturing base.
- 394549 8y ago
  >>> to ensure that the benefits of that are fairly spread throughout humanity. >> What about Uighur internment camps YC money will finance through taxes? > yeah what about US corporations exploiting cheap Chinese child labor as a manufacturing base. I don't think the grandparent poster is OK with that either.

ForrestN 8y ago

It’s troubling that this statement is so overtly unserious. Has YC and its surrounding culture become so insulated that they cannot see the obviously self-defeating through-line in this statement? “Our mission at YC is to enable more innovation than any other company in the world, and to ensure that the benefits of that are fairly spread throughout humanity.” Do you really think it’s possible to ensure that the benefits of innovation are spread fairly while simultaneously partnering with an oppressive, cruel government in order to create vast pools of wealth controlled by a tiny subset of individuals allied with that government? I can understand why someone would try to get as rich as possible and would turn a blind eye toward obvious moral compromise. I can also understand the utilitarian impulse to “ensure that the benefits of [innovation] are fairly spread throughout humanity.” But I can’t understand ignorance of the wild contradictions between those two “missions.” If you want to spread innovation equally, you should be working to support dissident voices in China and you should be putting 95% of you and your associates’ vast personal wealth behind the political project of reversing Republican-engineered inequality here at home. Helping people in China who you deem most likely to succeed (working in harmony with the government, of course) to become even more successful is not, in fact, helping to make the distribution of benefits among humanity more fair. TL:DR — Choose only one: fairness among humans or the accumulation of vast personal wealth by collaborating with governments that brutally oppress their own citizens.

justicezyx 8y ago
There are majority of society and economic activity that are neutral to policitics. Why cannot YC improve invocation by focusing on those areas?! If your dad said harsh words to you, are you going to claim that you are made inferior to normal citizen or you are working with a repressive parent?
- mattigames 8y ago
  When you help a country get richer and that country has a history of human right violations you are aiding the tyrants running the country even if you declare yourself "neutral to politics" and even if you have the best of intentions.

lawnchair_larry 8y ago

YC China? Why would you even consider this? Sam has lost his mind.

apta 8y ago
Why enable them even more? People have to watch out about what China is doing. Unfortunately money speaks.

philip1209 8y ago

What effect does switching from Baidu to YC have on Qi's social credit system rating?

hungryhobo 8y ago
honestly i thought HN is better than this.
- client4 8y ago
  Why? Are you willing to elaborate? This type of comment really doesn't add value to the conversation.
  - hungryhobo 8y ago
    Working with YC wouldn't have much effect on Qi's social ratings. Sorry I thought people had common sense
est 8y ago
Does any Chinese internet user ever tell a single story that has a exact score of the so called "social credit system"? Have you ever wondered why?
nathanyukai 8y ago
Currently there is no Social credit system implemented by government in use. Alibaba have a system but it's not gonna affect you outside of their products. Even if there is such system by government, It's not going to have any major effect. It's supposed to be used to punish illegal behaviours etc.

jmspring 8y ago

Interesting to see YC embrace someone who went on leave at MSFT due to injuries of a bike accident... or so the news claimed. Yet popped up at Baidu/etc. Next up YC will hire the Amazon Exec that puffed himself up and was fired before he joined Uber?

jmspring 8y ago
For reference - https://www.recode.net/2016/9/29/13103352/microsoft-qi-lu-to-exit https://www.recode.net/2016/9/29/13103352/microsoft-qi-lu-to...

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

google_censors 8y ago

It's amazing that a company that Paul Graham co-founded is getting into bed with an authoritarian government notorious for its human rights abuses. To succeed in China you can't go against the government. So is he going to be pushing as hard for political change in China as he is in the US, or will he remain silent as his company reaps the profits?

singularity2001 8y ago
Believing in his good morals, the underlying hope might be to achieve change through subversion: If YC becomes popular in in China, people might visit news.ycombinator.com and find very sane liberal thinking and many shocking truths about their country.
- enwa 8y ago
  Much more likely that anything negative about China will be deemed political, like many other subjects have been in the past, and flagged off the site. That is largely how the Chinese Internet works anyways.
- ebbv 8y ago
  Not gonna happen. This site would be banned or censored.
- zavi 8y ago
  Ah yes, the superior thinking of top minds that frequent news.ycombinator.com
- bitcurious 8y ago
  Reddit was blocked by the Chinese firewall this month. The suspected reason is discussion of the Uyghur concentration camps. Shocking truths don’t last on the Chinese internet. When YC is invested in China they won’t last on this website either.
  - pl1234 8y ago
    They already don't last.

fhe 8y ago

this is a very interesting move by YC. I can't wait to see if the "YC methodology" will work in China's startup scene. China's startup culture is notably different from Silicon Valley.

ksec 8y ago

I guess that pretty much leaves out Hong Kong, Macau then? The interview [1] by 36kr does a much better job of introduction and vision he has for YC China. Unfortunately it is in Chinese only. [1] https://36kr.com/p/5148299.html https://36kr.com/p/5148299.html

vincvinc 8y ago
Interesting! Unfortunately it doesn't seem to say where YC China would be based. Some interesting snippets (G Translated): Lu Qi: YC China's new business will include 1) business incubation, 2) talent training, 3) research and 4) public welfare. These are all in a way that Lu Qi's plan will operate in an unprecedented way. He wants more than just new technology. Technology is only an ability to change society. He wants to establish a new ecological support for new technology to change the society. That is the correct way to open the new world in his mind. [...] Q: How will YC China start? Lu Qi: Among the four businesses, the first to start is the incubator. Incubation camps are the first attempt at YC localization, but at the same time it draws on the core of YC: 1. The methodology of the incubator process and training content established by Paul Graham; 2. A network of YC alumni with more than 4,000 people. Alumni will help later entrepreneurs, and for Chinese entrepreneurs, alumni networks around the world can set up channels for offshore companies; 3. The YC brand, which is incubated by YC, is equivalent to being recognized and endorsed, and is more likely to be favored by investment institutions. In other respects, YC China may develop its own entrepreneurship curriculum and expect to reverse the influence of American entrepreneurs because I believe that globalization is the best way to innovate. YC China's research institute will be established under the YC Global Research Institute and will establish cooperation with Chinese research institutions. Finally, the charity business is hoping to focus on solving the impact of new technologies on people's employment. However, it is now the first day of the launch of YC China, and everything is still very early. I only have one person now. The most important thing at the moment is recruiting people. [...] Lu Qi: Because we need to build a new innovation ecosystem, so many players with different roles can participate. The first is Chinese investors. Because YC China will be closer to the early projects, it hopes to establish good interaction with Chinese middle and late investors. Also, YC China will also raise funds independently, and I hope to get support from China LP. Second, we and the big companies will also have a lot of cooperation. YC China's investment projects may be acquired, acquired, or serviced by large companies in the later stages. YC China Research Institute will also establish contacts with government or research institutions within the enterprise, and hopes to become China's support for the country to become a big country in innovation. [...] Sam has said on many occasions that 10 companies will reach Google in the next decade, three to four of them will be born in China, and more than 20 years of professional experience tells me that these three or four companies must be Believe in long-term companies.

koolba 8y ago

Is this going to follow the same investment structure as YC “Classic” or will that be changing as well? The amount of cash thrown at a YC company could go a long way in China. Will YC be taking a stand on China’s rampant theft of intellectual property or tacitly encouraging it as part of “being a start up”?

PaulHoule 8y ago

Of all places they could go. China appearing to succeed at a time when democracy is on the ropes is a dangerous trend for democracy. When you import goods from China, you import repression. Short-termed capitalists might think the repression applies just to workers, but China is a country with no human rights, no property rights, no rule of law. The Chinese government reserves the right to take anything you "own" there. Somehow it is a capitalist and communist hell at the same time.

claydavisss 8y ago
> When you import goods from China, you import repression can you please tell us where the goods in your home were manufactured? why not start with the ones with the glowing white apple on them? if you won't change, why should anyone else?
- PaulHoule 8y ago
  I have. I own very little Apple hardware and only because I am a software dev. I certainly buy many things from China because it is hard to never get anything from China, but often you do have a choice. I was at Target, for instance, and I bought a Samsung branded microwave oven from Malaysia which has a 44/100 score from Freedom House as opposed to China which has a 14/100 score. I have also gotten into fixing old toasters and things because I've found that recent models from China are based on inferior technology. When toasters started coming from China they would burn up -- multiple times my mother and law would buy them from Wal*Mart and thought she got a deal but it lastest less than six months. A few years later, Chinese toasters traded toasting speed for safety, then they went from two slots to four slots to make up for lost time. It doesn't help though if you are watching your carbs and want just one or two slices. Old toasters fail in a predictable way and can be repaired easily. It might be true about new toasters but why bother.
  - claydavisss 8y ago
    "very little Apple hardware" still means you own more Apple hardware than 95% of the world's population, including 99% of the people who manufacture it. but it sounds like you have rationalized this somehow, so why shouldn't everyone else?

uRreading2slow 8y ago

That certainly explains the regular silencing of criticism of China on HN. The irony is really something though: http://blog.samaltman.com/e-pur-si-muove http://blog.samaltman.com/e-pur-si-muove > Also, smart people tend to have an allergic reaction to the restriction of ideas, and I’m now seeing many of the smartest people I know move elsewhere. > It is bad for all of us when people can’t say that the world is a sphere, that evolution is real, or that the sun is at the center of the solar system. Or what totalitarianism is, what sociopathy is, what obedience to and identification with abusers is and how it comes about. > This is uncomfortable, but it’s possible we have to allow people to say disparaging things about gay people if we want them to be able to say novel things about physics. But we absolutely cannot quote any of the greats on whose shoulders we stand on -- and mean it, that is, and actually deconstruct the sophistry that is inevitably replied to that. I've had accounts throttled and shadowbanned which had not a single comment below 0, and many upvotes. None of the comments were off-topic or not substantive, it's just the powers that be didn't like them, but could cite no guidelines and refute no points. Come to think of it, it's like all these comments from mods telling people to "not do that here" are really just to give a pretense of transpareny and good faith. From where I'm sitting, it's mostly silent and mostly hypocritical. Maybe we have to allow the KKK to speak their mind. But do NOT talk about moderator action in public. Shedding light on the ways discussion is manipulated would degrade the quality of discussion, you see. So send us an email! Do not talk about votes, don't feel strongly about anything, no matter how solid the argument. Sure, a racist or homophobe might cure cancer, or someone who just uses the word "gay" to mean "lame", or someone with an IQ of 170 but also Tourette's. But you won't hear about it on a site where even a comment starting with something like "this is fucking bullshit!" followed by a detailed explanation of why it is, has to be punished or at least chided a bit. Yes, it would be better without that. But no, that doesn't excuse patting each other on the back for form over content. That's even dumber than swearing. Be that as it may, in the end it'll just eat you whole, spit out nothing, and the people who pretended your shit doesn't stink will turn out to have been your worst enemies all along. Totally apart from being an intelligent or good person, conformity for the sake of conformity and any "hacker spirit" are oil and water, so that really just leaves money and electric toys, with shades of censorship and direct and indirect murder. A little hut of gold on a lot of treacherous sand. The more you sell out, the more you give in, the more good you also can do, the more whistles you can blow, if you should ever grow your spine back. That is the one silver lining, but I won't hold my breath for it. Good luck though, without sarcasm. You do need it, and everybody deserves to come clean. Fuck your fear. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkQEPtOyIHY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkQEPtOyIHY

erdosnew 8y ago

is this the guy that served as former senior VP of Microsoft and later CEO of Baidu?

knuththetruth 8y ago

Is HackerNews accessible from mainland China? There’s been a lot of discussion here recently about Google working with the CCP’s censorship regime, kidnapped dissidents, and the interment of Muslims in Xinjiang. What impact will this move have on the featuring and discussion of these stories?

justicezyx 8y ago
Yes. I tried 3 weeks ago, it works. That's the only western site I frequnt and still accessible from inside. My savior!

pnathan 8y ago

This is a recognition that the Chinese world is a rising superpower, both in innovation and in politics. Reminds me to study Mandarin! I wish them all the best, and I hope that the interactions with the great qualities of YC produces an excellent step forward for China and its technologists.

ProAm 8y ago
> This is a recognition that the Chinese world is a rising superpower To be fair this has been known since the early 90's maybe even late 80's
- pnathan 8y ago
  It's a growing recognition - a lot of the 90s commentary around China was, in my recollection, essentially mediated by genteelly stated Yellow Peril racism and fear, much like the 80s fear of Japan. Along with a fair dose of anti-Communism - reading the old Leninist & Stalinist ideas for world revolution into the CCCP. The 2000s have allowed, in my opinion, a more mature understanding of China with less stereotypical hyperbole. I expect part of that is the commercial and cultural interchange, part of that is time, and part of that is the Internet. I also think there's something of an ideas stagflation in the US, against which China might be considered to be a bright spot in the world.
  - ProAm 8y ago
    My perspective and experience was always different. Everyone saw the Chinese manufacturing behemoth starting in the late 80's and early 90's. And as a result we saw a future superpower, at least economically. It did not have anything to do with racism, just money.
o0-0o 8y ago
China is 3000 years years old and still considered an emerging market. Why do you think that is?
- 8y ago

auganov 8y ago

Encourage everyone to boycott YC. I certainly won't be applying again. It's funny to watch YC do this, the one time I was actually invited to interview with YC was when our Chinese co-founder submitted a rather fraudulent[0] application. Angry that we wouldn't participate in his fraud he disappeared and filed a frivolous lawsuit against us (which after many years we won). China's tech growth is built on IP theft and protection by a murderous regime. It's a total antithesis of what made the Valley great. Big numbers put out by some people in China don't change that. If YC plans to invest in local Mainland startups: - ownership is going to tough, likely through dubious trickery - these uncertain legal rights expose YC to strong political pressures, anybody that has vested interest in China knows it - if you want to have a chance at cashing out your better be in good graces with the CCP - unethical behavior of YC pupils is inevitable, a PR nightmare in the making. "it's not the real YC, it's YC China, don't blame us!" You've destroyed your brand, now good luck getting a dollar out of China. And again, a necessary reminder I like to tell everyone: China is actively imprisoning and killing thousands of people for their religious beliefs. Censorship is nothing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Gong_practitioners_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Go... Few people know it, I certainly didn't, I wish I have. Like many I've heard something about the Falun Gong, I've seen the signs but never bothered to looked into it. It's all real, it's big, almost Nazi scale persecution. Please share it with anybody that does business with China. [0] because in China I guess that'd only be normal-fraudulent, right?

mazerackham 8y ago
Love when Chinese articles on HN bring out the yellow peril racists!

notbeevil 8y ago

look at the comments. What a fucking greedy world!!!

carapace 8y ago

Not a word, not a breath, of concern in that press release for the ethical aspects of doing business with the Chinese Communists. I think I'm gonna have to close my HN account. I don't even want to be this close to YC anymore. (They practice organlegging over there. Your wait time for a new kidney is so low because there are prisoners kept as involuntary donors. Most of the prisoners are incarcerated due to practicing something called Falun-Gong. They are not violent criminals.)

europeanperson 8y ago

I assume that most of the people that commented on this article live in the U.S. The majority of the world sees the U.S. as the world's biggest threat to world peace, yet I don't see anybody on Hacker News claiming companies shouldn't do business with the U.S. Since the war in Iraq, can we think of something that the Chinese government has done that is worse? I disagree strongly with the notion that the Chinese government's influence on the world is somehow worse than the influence of the U.S. I do think there is something to be said about boycotting governments that abuse human rights, but I think it is hypocritical to think that somehow that doesn't apply to the U.S.

seanmcdirmid 8y ago
You really don’t read HN much if you’ve missed all the criticism leveled at the USA.
- europeanperson 8y ago
  You got me there. It's just that almost all of the current comments talk about how YC shouldn't do business in China, while they're already doing business in the U.S. I just don't see how it is worse, when the U.S. has a far more violent recent past.
  - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
    There are many comments that don’t say that, however. The USA is still a great place to do business if you want to make money. My only arguments against China is that the system is more rigged against foreigners from making money there. The moral arguments are a distraction, though they are mostly true. Yes, China has third world problems, yes the USA has first world problems. Whatever, the world is an imperfect place.
    - europeanperson 8y ago
      I agree.
    - 8y ago

mk926 8y ago

full of keyboard hero

vinceyuan 8y ago

Not sure Qi Lu is the best person for this position. Though Qi was born in China, he almost spent his all career time in the US. Probably the time he worked in China is less than one year. You can't expect this person knows China market, Chinese young people, Chinese companies well, and has connections with people in China gov. And he worked for big companies only (Yahoo, Microsoft, Baidu). He never worked in startups. Can he find and invest good startups? I don't know. Anyway, YC entering China is a good thing. Hope Google search will come back to China soon.