6 ms·

I have first hand experience in Xinjiang a decade ago. Based on this report, it's gotten even worse. What I remember most was: 1) nearly hourly MMS messages to

I have first hand experience in Xinjiang a decade ago. Based on this report, it's gotten even worse. What I remember most was: 1) nearly hourly MMS messages to my flip phone from unknown numbers with an unknown attachment. Since my phone was bought outside China, the MMS attachment didn't automatically open the likely spyware. 2) Being followed and monitored by plainclothes policemen 3) Having my hotel room searched while I was away. Having police come to my hotel room to interrogate me but lacking access because I had the only key to the room (very very cheap hotel). 4) Armed convoys of Chinese army soldiers constantly going up and down major streets. The originally intention ten years ago was massive surveillance and intelligence gathering. AI and facial recognition are just making this easier and far less costly for their government. It's clear now that China is moving towards dictatorship, not democracy.

mherrmann 8y ago
"Moving towards dictatorship" is an understatement imho. They're already there.
- notbeevil1 8y ago
  "already there" is an understatement imho. XiBaozi is worse than Hitler.
- graeme 8y ago
  Interpreted charitably, they may have been referencing the idea that growth would gradually move China in the direction of democracy. Instead, they're going in the reverse direction on the scale.
- 3pt14159 8y ago
  Eh. I dunno. There should be a word for it that isn't dictatorship. There is an order-ness and a certain degree of pragmatism and restraint that the Chinese state has that most dictatorships do not. They sort of bend with the wind at times and it vents the outrage. They allow the intelligent to get access to the real internet without letting the bulk of their population talk unhindered. The way they do the Communist party is really smart too. They take the top high school students and successful academics / business people. So it naturally turns into the area that smart people solve problems, instead of turning them against the state. I agree that AI-powered surveillance is worrying, but it's not going to look like Stalin. It's going to look like something completely different.
  - adventured 8y ago
    > I agree that AI-powered surveillance is worrying, but it's not going to look like Stalin. It's going to look like something completely different. China is in the hands of Xi now. So that entirely depends on what he's willing to do to try to retain power, and what he regards as necessary to pursue his vision. Dictators get increasingly paranoid and erratic with time, with few exceptions in the last several hundred years. Erdogan is the latest example of a dictator losing his mind and running a country into the ground to preserve his power and pursue his vision. That's in part because the people get tired of a leader over time, even in the best of circumstances. The only choice to maintain the position Xi has is to crack down more and more on the population, restrict them further and further. Eventually every squeak is perceived as a threat. The real question is whether Xi leads them back to more Mao-like hyper authoritarian policies, to ensure his dictatorship and his vision for China. I'm skeptical it can end any other way, the path seems to have already been decided. The people that say China is different, are ignoring that this is no longer Deng's China, there has been a fundamental recent change in where they're going. China had to either continue liberalizing, or had to turn back, you can only float inbetween for so long. They chose (both Xi and the party that has handed him the reins).
    - lazerpants 8y ago
      It's difficult to tell, given that China is a dictatorship, but there are some in the party and state that are perhaps opposed to Xi seizing so much power. Good article on this: https://www.economist.com/china/2018/08/11/how-to-read-summer-grumbles-about-chinas-swaggering-leader https://www.economist.com/china/2018/08/11/how-to-read-summe...
      - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
        China is more of an authoritarian aristocracy at this point ruled by a few really powerful red families. Xi’s is only one such family, the others have power and will often duke it out in various factions. I still don’t think Xi is as powerful as even Jiang Zemin was, he definitely isn’t at Deng’s level yet.
Fuxy 8y ago
They were never moving towards democracy they were always moving towards "democracy with Chinese characteristics". All they ever wanted was to get all the benefits of democracy while staying a communist dictatorship which given the results so far they have succeeded in brilliantly. In many ways they are now out competing other countries because they have way more power and leverage on where Chinese companies move or what they do based on they outcome of their political negotiations with other countries. Not to mention they will never allow foreign companies to make money in China and instead they will favour the local "home grown" alternative or if there isn't one they will just steal it. There is a reason every foreign company is required to have local to be a part of the operations for them to be able to operate in China. Some of the time the corporate investment doesn't even need to be profitable financially for the company just as long as it is profitable politically for China. It's amazing how well China plays the game and frankly other Countries just can't compare at the moment. As an evil super villain I have to give kudos to how well they strip every freedom of their citizens even though I don't like any of it. How do you even go about defending yourself from such mass surveillance beside giving up technology and when necessary encrypting and deleting everything you do while wearing a mask every time you leave the house?
- fossuser 8y ago
  Wearing a mask isn't enough because they're also working on gait recognition, you'd have to change up how you walk every time you leave too.
  - panarky 8y ago
    gait
  - felix_nagaand 8y ago
    Pebbles in one or both shoes, plus a thick insole, and some sort of tourniquet on a leg just loose to allow blood to flow will be sufficient to trick these for sometime so long as one can carefully conceal any other uniquely identifying factors.
    - 8y ago
seanmcdirmid 8y ago
Was that in Urumqi or somewhere out near the border in 北疆? I went in 2006, so it wasn’t that bad yet.
- assblaster 8y ago
  Urumqi was the absolute worst as far as overt surveillance and military intimidation. Kashgar was surprisingly not as bad. Smaller cities around Kashgar such as Yarkant or Karglik were also not bad. I think China is approaching Xinjiang as a slow but persistent conquerer would: get a foothold in a major city, transform it in your image (Han), then move out to surrounding communities until all are pacified.
  - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
    North Xinjiang is much more Han than south Xinjiang, which is much more Uighur. The cities are obviously more Ham, especially around Urumqi, but even the countryside is more diverse in north Xinjiang with kazaks and Tajiks. I’m surprised the PLA isn’t being harsher near kashgar, they have more problems there than in Urumqi.
    - assblaster 8y ago
      I think that since the South and West are so much more Uyghur, if the PLA stressed the population too much they'd have a full blown revolt on their hands. What's happening in Tibet is also a good indication of what the PLA intends to do with ethnic dilution.
      - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
        ....which is a bit ironic since the Qing brought the Uighurs into north xinjiang in the first place because the Dhunzgars killed off most of the Han living there (well, after they then used the Uighurs to kill the Dhunzgar...).

mherrmann 8y ago

"Moving towards dictatorship" is an understatement imho. They're already there.

notbeevil1 8y ago
"already there" is an understatement imho. XiBaozi is worse than Hitler.
graeme 8y ago
Interpreted charitably, they may have been referencing the idea that growth would gradually move China in the direction of democracy. Instead, they're going in the reverse direction on the scale.
3pt14159 8y ago
Eh. I dunno. There should be a word for it that isn't dictatorship. There is an order-ness and a certain degree of pragmatism and restraint that the Chinese state has that most dictatorships do not. They sort of bend with the wind at times and it vents the outrage. They allow the intelligent to get access to the real internet without letting the bulk of their population talk unhindered. The way they do the Communist party is really smart too. They take the top high school students and successful academics / business people. So it naturally turns into the area that smart people solve problems, instead of turning them against the state. I agree that AI-powered surveillance is worrying, but it's not going to look like Stalin. It's going to look like something completely different.
- adventured 8y ago
  > I agree that AI-powered surveillance is worrying, but it's not going to look like Stalin. It's going to look like something completely different. China is in the hands of Xi now. So that entirely depends on what he's willing to do to try to retain power, and what he regards as necessary to pursue his vision. Dictators get increasingly paranoid and erratic with time, with few exceptions in the last several hundred years. Erdogan is the latest example of a dictator losing his mind and running a country into the ground to preserve his power and pursue his vision. That's in part because the people get tired of a leader over time, even in the best of circumstances. The only choice to maintain the position Xi has is to crack down more and more on the population, restrict them further and further. Eventually every squeak is perceived as a threat. The real question is whether Xi leads them back to more Mao-like hyper authoritarian policies, to ensure his dictatorship and his vision for China. I'm skeptical it can end any other way, the path seems to have already been decided. The people that say China is different, are ignoring that this is no longer Deng's China, there has been a fundamental recent change in where they're going. China had to either continue liberalizing, or had to turn back, you can only float inbetween for so long. They chose (both Xi and the party that has handed him the reins).
  - lazerpants 8y ago
    It's difficult to tell, given that China is a dictatorship, but there are some in the party and state that are perhaps opposed to Xi seizing so much power. Good article on this: https://www.economist.com/china/2018/08/11/how-to-read-summer-grumbles-about-chinas-swaggering-leader https://www.economist.com/china/2018/08/11/how-to-read-summe...
    - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
      China is more of an authoritarian aristocracy at this point ruled by a few really powerful red families. Xi’s is only one such family, the others have power and will often duke it out in various factions. I still don’t think Xi is as powerful as even Jiang Zemin was, he definitely isn’t at Deng’s level yet.

Fuxy 8y ago

They were never moving towards democracy they were always moving towards "democracy with Chinese characteristics". All they ever wanted was to get all the benefits of democracy while staying a communist dictatorship which given the results so far they have succeeded in brilliantly. In many ways they are now out competing other countries because they have way more power and leverage on where Chinese companies move or what they do based on they outcome of their political negotiations with other countries. Not to mention they will never allow foreign companies to make money in China and instead they will favour the local "home grown" alternative or if there isn't one they will just steal it. There is a reason every foreign company is required to have local to be a part of the operations for them to be able to operate in China. Some of the time the corporate investment doesn't even need to be profitable financially for the company just as long as it is profitable politically for China. It's amazing how well China plays the game and frankly other Countries just can't compare at the moment. As an evil super villain I have to give kudos to how well they strip every freedom of their citizens even though I don't like any of it. How do you even go about defending yourself from such mass surveillance beside giving up technology and when necessary encrypting and deleting everything you do while wearing a mask every time you leave the house?

fossuser 8y ago
Wearing a mask isn't enough because they're also working on gait recognition, you'd have to change up how you walk every time you leave too.
- panarky 8y ago
  gait
- felix_nagaand 8y ago
  Pebbles in one or both shoes, plus a thick insole, and some sort of tourniquet on a leg just loose to allow blood to flow will be sufficient to trick these for sometime so long as one can carefully conceal any other uniquely identifying factors.
  - 8y ago

seanmcdirmid 8y ago

Was that in Urumqi or somewhere out near the border in 北疆? I went in 2006, so it wasn’t that bad yet.

assblaster 8y ago
Urumqi was the absolute worst as far as overt surveillance and military intimidation. Kashgar was surprisingly not as bad. Smaller cities around Kashgar such as Yarkant or Karglik were also not bad. I think China is approaching Xinjiang as a slow but persistent conquerer would: get a foothold in a major city, transform it in your image (Han), then move out to surrounding communities until all are pacified.
- seanmcdirmid 8y ago
  North Xinjiang is much more Han than south Xinjiang, which is much more Uighur. The cities are obviously more Ham, especially around Urumqi, but even the countryside is more diverse in north Xinjiang with kazaks and Tajiks. I’m surprised the PLA isn’t being harsher near kashgar, they have more problems there than in Urumqi.
  - assblaster 8y ago
    I think that since the South and West are so much more Uyghur, if the PLA stressed the population too much they'd have a full blown revolt on their hands. What's happening in Tibet is also a good indication of what the PLA intends to do with ethnic dilution.
    - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
      ....which is a bit ironic since the Qing brought the Uighurs into north xinjiang in the first place because the Dhunzgars killed off most of the Han living there (well, after they then used the Uighurs to kill the Dhunzgar...).