4 ms·

Ammonia is toxic, though, we will have to convert it back to hydrogen way before it reaches the car or most gas stations, just to be on a safe side.

by maga 8y ago

_Codemonkeyism 8y ago
Petrol is also toxic, that said I have no clue about the relative toxicity.
- semi-extrinsic 8y ago
  Petrol is safe enough that you can let untrained people pour it from one tank to another. Spill a little, no problem. Ammonia is a gas at standard temperature, and will be transported and used as a liquid under pressure. If you expose liquid ammonia to the atmosphere, all of it boils off rapidly. The IDLH (immediate danger to life and health) limit for ammonia is 300 parts per million. If you release 15 grams of ammonia inside a typical garage, you have exceeded the IDLH threshold. If you spill just 1 gram, the smell is so strong the average person is running away in fear.
  - Dylan16807 8y ago
    > If you spill just 1 gram, the smell is so strong the average person is running away in fear. That's a safety feature.
    - marcosdumay 8y ago
      Yes. With natural gas we have to add it, in ammonia it's there for free.
- jacobush 8y ago
  Spill some gas/petrol, wait a couple of minutes, and most of the toxicity is gone and no harm done to you except that you have increased your chance, very slightly, of getting cancer during your lifespan. Spill ammonia? https://www.vyperlook.com/extreme-things/policeman-killed-instantly-by-an-ammonia-gas-tank/ https://www.vyperlook.com/extreme-things/policeman-killed-in...
- marcosdumay 8y ago
  Ammonia being a gas, it's better compared to natural gas than liquid hydrocarbons. You don't want common people handling it directly, you want safeguards every few inches on ducts that transport them and you will still have deaths caused by them every so often.
Balero 8y ago
I don't think we would have to do it way before. Gasoline is toxic, and flammable. Hydrogen is flammable. Cars pump out Carbon Monoxide which is toxic. We are well past the "safe side" currently and it seems to be going ok.
- maga 8y ago
  Ammonia is gaseous under normal conditions, meaning that any leak would result in presence of gaseous ammonia in air. 500 mg of ammonia per m3 of air can damages eyes, a short exposure to 3g can have overall toxic effects, at 7 g and higher it damages the skin. Gasoline, hydrogen, or monoxide don't come close to this level of toxicity.
jessaustin 8y ago
There is an entire industrial infrastructure in many agricultural nations that manufactures, distributes, and fertilizes with liquid anhydrous ammonia. All the necessary tech to get this into a vehicle without killing anyone already exists.
- maga 8y ago
  And it's regulated way more than the fuel industry. In many of those developing nations, opening a gas station is as simple as burying a few containers and paying off fire-safety inspectors. I'm not at all eager to see them handling ammonia that way.
  - jessaustin 8y ago
    From what I've seen of "developing nations", a "gas station" is a roadside hut with a shelf of liter-size glass bottles and a skinny dude to pour the bottles into the tank of your motorcycle. Obviously no one would handle pressurized liquid ammonia in that fashion, because it isn't physically possible. One wouldn't imagine that developing nations are the target market for this anyway. The point is that lots of people know how to handle ammonia, and if the market expanded lots more people could learn. If we're serious about reducing carbon emissions (frankly that's an open question), what would be so terrible about bringing back filling station attendants?
    - maga 8y ago
      And then there is BRICS--countries that have the means to use the modern tech, but the governments are too weak or too corrupt to enforce regulations. This tech has its merits, if done right it can increase the overall efficiency of hydrogen tech, however carrying kgs of ammonia in consumers' cars or tons of it in local gas stations when mere grams can kill you is pushing it too far.

Ammonia is toxic, though, we will have to convert it back to hydrogen way before it reaches the car or most gas stations, just to be on a safe side.

by maga 8y ago

Ammonia is toxic, though, we will have to convert it back to hydrogen way before it reaches the car or most gas stations, just to be on a safe side.

_Codemonkeyism 8y ago

Petrol is also toxic, that said I have no clue about the relative toxicity.

semi-extrinsic 8y ago
Petrol is safe enough that you can let untrained people pour it from one tank to another. Spill a little, no problem. Ammonia is a gas at standard temperature, and will be transported and used as a liquid under pressure. If you expose liquid ammonia to the atmosphere, all of it boils off rapidly. The IDLH (immediate danger to life and health) limit for ammonia is 300 parts per million. If you release 15 grams of ammonia inside a typical garage, you have exceeded the IDLH threshold. If you spill just 1 gram, the smell is so strong the average person is running away in fear.
- Dylan16807 8y ago
  > If you spill just 1 gram, the smell is so strong the average person is running away in fear. That's a safety feature.
  - marcosdumay 8y ago
    Yes. With natural gas we have to add it, in ammonia it's there for free.
jacobush 8y ago
Spill some gas/petrol, wait a couple of minutes, and most of the toxicity is gone and no harm done to you except that you have increased your chance, very slightly, of getting cancer during your lifespan. Spill ammonia? https://www.vyperlook.com/extreme-things/policeman-killed-instantly-by-an-ammonia-gas-tank/ https://www.vyperlook.com/extreme-things/policeman-killed-in...
marcosdumay 8y ago
Ammonia being a gas, it's better compared to natural gas than liquid hydrocarbons. You don't want common people handling it directly, you want safeguards every few inches on ducts that transport them and you will still have deaths caused by them every so often.

Balero 8y ago

I don't think we would have to do it way before. Gasoline is toxic, and flammable. Hydrogen is flammable. Cars pump out Carbon Monoxide which is toxic. We are well past the "safe side" currently and it seems to be going ok.

maga 8y ago
Ammonia is gaseous under normal conditions, meaning that any leak would result in presence of gaseous ammonia in air. 500 mg of ammonia per m3 of air can damages eyes, a short exposure to 3g can have overall toxic effects, at 7 g and higher it damages the skin. Gasoline, hydrogen, or monoxide don't come close to this level of toxicity.

jessaustin 8y ago

There is an entire industrial infrastructure in many agricultural nations that manufactures, distributes, and fertilizes with liquid anhydrous ammonia. All the necessary tech to get this into a vehicle without killing anyone already exists.

maga 8y ago
And it's regulated way more than the fuel industry. In many of those developing nations, opening a gas station is as simple as burying a few containers and paying off fire-safety inspectors. I'm not at all eager to see them handling ammonia that way.
- jessaustin 8y ago
  From what I've seen of "developing nations", a "gas station" is a roadside hut with a shelf of liter-size glass bottles and a skinny dude to pour the bottles into the tank of your motorcycle. Obviously no one would handle pressurized liquid ammonia in that fashion, because it isn't physically possible. One wouldn't imagine that developing nations are the target market for this anyway. The point is that lots of people know how to handle ammonia, and if the market expanded lots more people could learn. If we're serious about reducing carbon emissions (frankly that's an open question), what would be so terrible about bringing back filling station attendants?
  - maga 8y ago
    And then there is BRICS--countries that have the means to use the modern tech, but the governments are too weak or too corrupt to enforce regulations. This tech has its merits, if done right it can increase the overall efficiency of hydrogen tech, however carrying kgs of ammonia in consumers' cars or tons of it in local gas stations when mere grams can kill you is pushing it too far.