5 ms·

Desalinization isn't a good example for the reasons you say, but theptip writes below that heating water in residential and commercial settings might be better.

by eloff 8y ago

Desalinization isn't a good example for the reasons you say, but theptip writes below that heating water in residential and commercial settings might be better. Since water once heated stays hot for a good while in the insulated storage tank. Also buildings can be heated with hot water instead of forced air, typically through pipes in the floor. Which is nicer because it keeps your feet toasty and doesn't dry out the room so badly. A freezer is possibly another such use case, if it keeps the temperature to within +/- X degrees of the set temperature, it can delay kicking in during periods of expensive electricity, and over-cool during periods of cheap electricity. I could load the washer or dryer and program it to run it when it's cheapest if I'm not in a hurry. Charging an electric car could work the same way. Air conditioners are a huge deal, my single biggest electricity consumer. In a world where things were smarter they would chill coolant/water/ice during times of cheap electricity, and that would be used to cool during the hot evenings. The problem is I have no way to take advantage of any of that. The electric grid isn't giving me feedback on the spot price of electricity (and in many places they don't even break it down on the bill, showing just one value for $/kwH for the entire month - that's what my bill looks like.) Even if that problem is resolved, my appliances are too dumb to take advantage of that information to optimize my costs. The grid needs to convey the realtime pricing information to customers, and then smarter appliances will be developed to take advantage of that information. The market may be able to do a surprisingly effective job of moderating demand itself if both the information and the means to apply it are available.

teachrdan 8y ago
A great example of this is ice bank refrigeration, which literally uses a giant block of ice to cool air in a building. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_storage_air_conditioning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_storage_air_conditioning
frankydp 8y ago
There is a program to provide that feedback. I already own an enabled water heater for example. https://smartgrid.ieee.org/ https://smartgrid.ieee.org/ http://www.whatissmartgrid.org/smart-grid-101 http://www.whatissmartgrid.org/smart-grid-101
Moru 8y ago
Heating a big, isolated water tank was pretty common when I was working in the industry 25 years ago. Power was much cheaper during night so you used that to heat the water tank and daytime you used that water to heat the building. Lately this has been available to private customers also, price by the hour. (Sweden)
- chr4004 8y ago
  Check out https://mixergy.co.uk https://mixergy.co.uk which recently came out with a nice solution.
  - shin_t 8y ago
    Yep and yesterday FullyCharged released a vid about it being on trials - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1Z4JCoPAGc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1Z4JCoPAGc An interesting note from the video is how they said they could detect the grid frequency from the plug to detect times of over supply and (in theory) that would be the right time to absorb some of that excess. Some other interesting benefits (mentioned in the comments) about how it can periodically cycle the heat better than traditional water tanks to kill off bacteria.
    - chr4004 8y ago
      That's where I got it from. Was likewise intrigued by the frequency remark, interesting stuff.
yourapostasy 8y ago
> The problem is I have no way to take advantage of any of that. Some metropolitan areas have residential level demand response programs that address the obverse issue: when there is too little power, participating opt-in residential electricity customers with a qualifying Internet-connected thermostat would see their HVAC systems reduce power consumption through adjustment of the temperature set point. I suspect most of them use OpenADR [1]. If my skim of the OpenADR specification (requires free registration) is off, and we can't use it to pass pricing signals through the EIEvent/Quote/Report/Avail/Opt services, then we can use the OASIS Energy Interoperation parent specification, though that seems much more heavyweight and baroque to work with, and likely a harder sell to utility organizations to adopt. The utilities would need to expose pricing history as well, so longer-term planning by consumers can be performed through predictive trend analysis. The communications and protocol infrastructure is there to convey the information to your residence, but the back-end at the utility side is an open question, and likeliest hardest to hook up. If I had access to near-zero cost electricity when they're trying shed load, then I would use it for drying clothes, chilling a pool (thermal mass) during hot months, heating a pool (thermal mass) during cold months, baking and pressure cooking while running a kitchen A/C at full blast, etc. All of these activities either use capital equipment already paid for, or very cheap to acquire to add to my existing equipment stock (like heat exchanger to thermal mass and even a brine tank). [1] https://openadr.memberclicks.net/ https://openadr.memberclicks.net/
ksolanki 8y ago
This is insightful. The solution is probably to have a spot market for electricity that is accessible via an API so that smart AC or fridge or electric car charger can make use of it. This will encourage market for devices that can utilize the lower spot prices dynamically and keep the things more efficient overall (in steady state).
- eitally 8y ago
  Some electricity utilities offer this as a sort of service to their customers, where they detect high grid utilization days and notify customers they can save $ by reducing consumption on those days. Here's PG&E's page about their version: https://www.pge.com/en_US/residential/rate-plans/rate-plan-options/smart-rate-add-on/smart-rate-add-on.page https://www.pge.com/en_US/residential/rate-plans/rate-plan-o... It's not "smart" or automated, but it's a baby step.
  - kmc059000 8y ago
    This concept is called Demand Response and is quite prevalent. Consumers receive a discount for reducing their load at peak times. This frequently targets very high demand customers rather than residential for the simple fact that it's easier to ask a company to delay starting a single piece of machinery than to reduce the load on an equivalent but large number consumer appliances like refirgerators. Doing this at a residential level will require significant costs to support at a residential scale. Technology is the key in solving this problem.
    - LgWoodenBadger 8y ago
      I've been signed up with PECO for years in Pennsylvania for their SmartSaver program that targets my residential AC during the hottest summer months. I get a bill credit every month for participating. https://www.peco.com/WaysToSave/ForYourHome/Pages/SmartACSaver.aspx https://www.peco.com/WaysToSave/ForYourHome/Pages/SmartACSav...
- bacon_waffle 8y ago
  We've got these in New Zealand - once you have a "smart meter" (which I believe most homes now have), then you can pick an electricity retailer like https://www.flickelectric.co.nz https://www.flickelectric.co.nz that bills you according to the current price. Flick provides an API to allow you to turn on/off loads when you see fit.
undreren 8y ago
> but theptip writes below that heating water in residential and commercial settings might be better. When I worked at Ørsted, we did this all the time. We had a huge electric kettle, which we used to produce district heating water. But there are many more things you can do with surplus energy. You can make methane gas from pure CO2 and hydrogen when you apply electric power as a catalyst. The methane can then be eaten by bacteria to provide protein powder to be used as supplements to feeding livestock. Or, we can yank CO2 out of the atmosphere and store it as ethanol. I think this was discovered last year or so? Ethanol is a really good "battery", and it only discharges as much CO2 as was captured by the surplus energy used to make it, making it a clean fuel that only exhausts CO2 and sterile water.
- hvidgaard 8y ago
  I was at a tour of Skærbækværket many years ago, and as I remember it, when you produce power, you need to be able to control the voltage somehow. If there is a surplus of power and you cannot turn down production, you need to dump it or the voltage will go up, destroying electrical systems. One of the simplest ways to do this is to heat water, and when you have well established district heating it's almost a no brainer what to do.
  - undreren 8y ago
    It's a nobrainer, but the electric kettles are rather expensive and are usually therefore only bought to ensure production capacity in the case that the powerplant's own kettle malfunctions. Besides, district heating produced on power from the grid is taxed as if produced on coal, as the power has no traceability. This makes it really expensive, unless you are directly hooked up to a solar or windfarm. That's the law in Denmark at least. PS: I worked in the administrative building just next door to Skærbækværket! :)
    - hvidgaard 8y ago
      Ahh, it doesn't make much sense to install it away from a powerplant. It captures waste heat and electricity, where as one elsewhere would only be able to capture excess electricity.
mywacaday 8y ago
This is the only valid reason I have heard for having smart household appliances.
- eloff 8y ago
  You made me laugh, but yeah I can't think of another good reason for my refrigerator to be "smart".
ForHackernews 8y ago
Storage heaters are common in many parts of Europe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storage_heater https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storage_heater They already work on this principle, more or less: heat up overnight when electricity is metered cheaper, then discharge during the day. There are several companies working on making "smarter" versions that can switch on and off in response to real time data.

by eloff 8y ago

teachrdan 8y ago

A great example of this is ice bank refrigeration, which literally uses a giant block of ice to cool air in a building. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_storage_air_conditioning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_storage_air_conditioning

frankydp 8y ago

There is a program to provide that feedback. I already own an enabled water heater for example. https://smartgrid.ieee.org/ https://smartgrid.ieee.org/ http://www.whatissmartgrid.org/smart-grid-101 http://www.whatissmartgrid.org/smart-grid-101

Moru 8y ago

Heating a big, isolated water tank was pretty common when I was working in the industry 25 years ago. Power was much cheaper during night so you used that to heat the water tank and daytime you used that water to heat the building. Lately this has been available to private customers also, price by the hour. (Sweden)

chr4004 8y ago
Check out https://mixergy.co.uk https://mixergy.co.uk which recently came out with a nice solution.
- shin_t 8y ago
  Yep and yesterday FullyCharged released a vid about it being on trials - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1Z4JCoPAGc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1Z4JCoPAGc An interesting note from the video is how they said they could detect the grid frequency from the plug to detect times of over supply and (in theory) that would be the right time to absorb some of that excess. Some other interesting benefits (mentioned in the comments) about how it can periodically cycle the heat better than traditional water tanks to kill off bacteria.
  - chr4004 8y ago
    That's where I got it from. Was likewise intrigued by the frequency remark, interesting stuff.

yourapostasy 8y ago

> The problem is I have no way to take advantage of any of that. Some metropolitan areas have residential level demand response programs that address the obverse issue: when there is too little power, participating opt-in residential electricity customers with a qualifying Internet-connected thermostat would see their HVAC systems reduce power consumption through adjustment of the temperature set point. I suspect most of them use OpenADR [1]. If my skim of the OpenADR specification (requires free registration) is off, and we can't use it to pass pricing signals through the EIEvent/Quote/Report/Avail/Opt services, then we can use the OASIS Energy Interoperation parent specification, though that seems much more heavyweight and baroque to work with, and likely a harder sell to utility organizations to adopt. The utilities would need to expose pricing history as well, so longer-term planning by consumers can be performed through predictive trend analysis. The communications and protocol infrastructure is there to convey the information to your residence, but the back-end at the utility side is an open question, and likeliest hardest to hook up. If I had access to near-zero cost electricity when they're trying shed load, then I would use it for drying clothes, chilling a pool (thermal mass) during hot months, heating a pool (thermal mass) during cold months, baking and pressure cooking while running a kitchen A/C at full blast, etc. All of these activities either use capital equipment already paid for, or very cheap to acquire to add to my existing equipment stock (like heat exchanger to thermal mass and even a brine tank). [1] https://openadr.memberclicks.net/ https://openadr.memberclicks.net/

ksolanki 8y ago

This is insightful. The solution is probably to have a spot market for electricity that is accessible via an API so that smart AC or fridge or electric car charger can make use of it. This will encourage market for devices that can utilize the lower spot prices dynamically and keep the things more efficient overall (in steady state).

eitally 8y ago
Some electricity utilities offer this as a sort of service to their customers, where they detect high grid utilization days and notify customers they can save $ by reducing consumption on those days. Here's PG&E's page about their version: https://www.pge.com/en_US/residential/rate-plans/rate-plan-options/smart-rate-add-on/smart-rate-add-on.page https://www.pge.com/en_US/residential/rate-plans/rate-plan-o... It's not "smart" or automated, but it's a baby step.
- kmc059000 8y ago
  This concept is called Demand Response and is quite prevalent. Consumers receive a discount for reducing their load at peak times. This frequently targets very high demand customers rather than residential for the simple fact that it's easier to ask a company to delay starting a single piece of machinery than to reduce the load on an equivalent but large number consumer appliances like refirgerators. Doing this at a residential level will require significant costs to support at a residential scale. Technology is the key in solving this problem.
  - LgWoodenBadger 8y ago
    I've been signed up with PECO for years in Pennsylvania for their SmartSaver program that targets my residential AC during the hottest summer months. I get a bill credit every month for participating. https://www.peco.com/WaysToSave/ForYourHome/Pages/SmartACSaver.aspx https://www.peco.com/WaysToSave/ForYourHome/Pages/SmartACSav...
bacon_waffle 8y ago
We've got these in New Zealand - once you have a "smart meter" (which I believe most homes now have), then you can pick an electricity retailer like https://www.flickelectric.co.nz https://www.flickelectric.co.nz that bills you according to the current price. Flick provides an API to allow you to turn on/off loads when you see fit.

undreren 8y ago

> but theptip writes below that heating water in residential and commercial settings might be better. When I worked at Ørsted, we did this all the time. We had a huge electric kettle, which we used to produce district heating water. But there are many more things you can do with surplus energy. You can make methane gas from pure CO2 and hydrogen when you apply electric power as a catalyst. The methane can then be eaten by bacteria to provide protein powder to be used as supplements to feeding livestock. Or, we can yank CO2 out of the atmosphere and store it as ethanol. I think this was discovered last year or so? Ethanol is a really good "battery", and it only discharges as much CO2 as was captured by the surplus energy used to make it, making it a clean fuel that only exhausts CO2 and sterile water.

hvidgaard 8y ago
I was at a tour of Skærbækværket many years ago, and as I remember it, when you produce power, you need to be able to control the voltage somehow. If there is a surplus of power and you cannot turn down production, you need to dump it or the voltage will go up, destroying electrical systems. One of the simplest ways to do this is to heat water, and when you have well established district heating it's almost a no brainer what to do.
- undreren 8y ago
  It's a nobrainer, but the electric kettles are rather expensive and are usually therefore only bought to ensure production capacity in the case that the powerplant's own kettle malfunctions. Besides, district heating produced on power from the grid is taxed as if produced on coal, as the power has no traceability. This makes it really expensive, unless you are directly hooked up to a solar or windfarm. That's the law in Denmark at least. PS: I worked in the administrative building just next door to Skærbækværket! :)
  - hvidgaard 8y ago
    Ahh, it doesn't make much sense to install it away from a powerplant. It captures waste heat and electricity, where as one elsewhere would only be able to capture excess electricity.

mywacaday 8y ago

This is the only valid reason I have heard for having smart household appliances.

eloff 8y ago
You made me laugh, but yeah I can't think of another good reason for my refrigerator to be "smart".

ForHackernews 8y ago

Storage heaters are common in many parts of Europe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storage_heater https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storage_heater They already work on this principle, more or less: heat up overnight when electricity is metered cheaper, then discharge during the day. There are several companies working on making "smarter" versions that can switch on and off in response to real time data.