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Most people invoking a moral imperative to not make hackintoshes are coming from the angle that it’s stealing from Apple. I look at it another way. Apple, as a

Most people invoking a moral imperative to not make hackintoshes are coming from the angle that it’s stealing from Apple. I look at it another way. Apple, as a company is failing to meet the needs of some of its users: - You can’t get an upgradable pro machine - you can’t get a good keyboard (for some definitions of good) - macOS gets more iOS-ified with each release and some people don’t like that Every Hackintosh continues to add momentum to that platform ecosystem, enriching it so that Apple can continue on more or less as they want. I use Linux (and OpenBSD occasionally) these days, and I do so in part so that I can sometimes be the guy who sands off a rough corner or two. Even by using the platform and occasionally submitting bug reports, you’re enriching a platform that may be the last un-nerfed general purpose computing platform standing. If we lose general purpose computing to a world of app-store enabled iPad Pros and Windows Store-locked Surfaces, we will have lost something important I think.

tokenizerrr 8y ago
I really don't get why I would want to run an operating system where the vendor refuses to support my hardware. Also, the font color on this blog is absolutely horrible.
- suprfnk 8y ago
  > the font color on this blog is absolutely horrible. Yeah, I've noticed more sites do this. Super annoying. I made this bookmark for those cases: javascript:(()=>{document.querySelectorAll("p,div,article,section,ul,ol,li").forEach(x=>{x.style["color"]="black";});})();
  - MisterTea 8y ago
    Thank you for that. Nothing worse than shitty web design.
- pmiller2 8y ago
  I think this is the real reason not to build a hackintosh. I don’t find the “theft” argument compelling, because Apple doesn’t even sell OSX anymore. They’re a hardware company.
- pixel_fcker 8y ago
  There’s not really a vendor here since macOS is free. Linux isn’t exactly free from the need to choose well-supported hardware either, particularly of you need to run a more stable distro
  - dylan604 8y ago
    macOS isn’t really free. It just “comes with” the hardware you just bought. You’re not supposed to download the OS unless you have qualifying hardware. A hackintosh rig does not qualify.
wodenokoto 8y ago
> - you can’t get a good keyboard (for some definitions of good) You mean like, a PS/2 keyboard or what are you on about? Any bluetooth or usb keyboard works on any regular mac. > - macOS gets more iOS-ified with each release and some people don’t like that Again, what are you on about? A hackintosh is running a just as ios-ivied macOS as a regular mac.
- detaro 8y ago
  You are arguing against a point the parent doesn't make, they are arguing against using Hackintoshes at all. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17709707 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17709707
- neon_electro 8y ago
  I think he's implying that you would run an older, less iOS-ified version of MacOS on the Hackintosh.
  - eanzenberg 8y ago
    You can still do the same on mac hardware though.
  - zargon 8y ago
    No, peatmoss's argument is to not use macOS because (among other reasons) Apple is making it less desirable (iOS-ifying it). Don't use it on Apple hardware, don't use it on hackintosh hardware.
- mschuster91 8y ago
  > You mean like, a PS/2 keyboard or what are you on about? I believe GP refers to the crapboards in the recent MacBook Pro lineup, which are amazingly bad. Also, IIRC Apple doesn't offer a real wired keyboard anymore.
  - peatmoss 8y ago
    Correct. That was my intent.
e12e 8y ago
> Most people invoking a moral imperative to not make hackintoshes are coming from the angle that it’s stealing from Apple. I don't feel a moral obligation not to steal from Apple. I'm not sure I could steal (and use) an amount from them that would impact them at all. I mean even if I stole a classroom full of MacBook pro's in order to give free programming classes - it's not like it would affect Apple in any meaningful way. But I don't quite get why anyone would go out of their way to get hw they'll never be able to run legally licensed os on. For fun and learning, sure. Turn your linux/bsd box into a hackintosh by dual booting. But you can never do any work on it without risk. So what's the point? Sure you can "buy" a copy of os x - but you only get install media and a license to run on Apple hw.
- hellisothers 8y ago
  What does “never be able to run a legally licensed os” mean in this context? I am an iOS engineer and avid photographer: I work on a Hackintosh, I develop my photos on my Hackintosh. I’ve had 0 problems with this setup and it cost me 1/10th as much as a similarly specced Mac. And my “similar” I’m being generous to the Mac because my machine is faster
  - bobwaycott 8y ago
    I’m guessing they’re referring to the fact that Apple’s EULA prohibits—or prohibited at one time, I believe it still does—running macOS on anything other than Apple hardware. Hence, a Hackintosh violates the EULA. Not saying it’s bad or not. I despise EULAs. I think that’s what the parent means, though.
    - deong 8y ago
      I don't think he's at all concerned about the license. He's just saying most people won't and shouldn't do "real work" on a machine that could break at any point with no possibility for support.
      - e12e 8y ago
wilsonnb3 8y ago
>Most people invoking a moral imperative to not make hackintoshes are coming from the angle that it’s stealing from Apple. >I look at it another way. Apple, as a company is failing to meet the needs of some of its users: I don't see how the two perspectives are related, unless you think a company failing to meet your needs as a consumer is a valid reason to steal from said company.
- detaro 8y ago
  They aren't saying they are related except that they are both arguments against using Hackintoshes?
  - wilsonnb3 8y ago
    By saying that they don't look at it as stealing and then saying that they look at it another way, there is an implication that the way they look at it somehow relates to the perspective that it's stealing. In other words, there has to be some reason that they don't see it as stealing but do see it as a failure by Apple to meet the needs of it's consumers. That reason is the relationship between the two concepts and I don't understand what that relationship is.
    - detaro 8y ago
      No, they just see the their argument as a better one against making a Hackintosh. No need to even consider the "stealing" angle if you think a Hackintosh would be bad anyways.
      - wilsonnb3 8y ago
        I didn't read their argument as being anti-hackintosh. I read their argument as "some people say it's immoral to run a hackintosh, but I think it's not immoral because Apple isn't providing their consumers with a valid alternative".
        detaro 8y ago
AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
> I use Linux (and OpenBSD occasionally) these days [...] may be the last un-nerfed general purpose computing platform standing. I really hope you're not right about this, but unfortunately it seems all too likely. Linux will finally win on the desktop not because it finally starts listening to potential users and making things better, but because everyone else just stops making desktops.
- peatmoss 8y ago
  > it finally starts listening to potential users and making things better, but because everyone else just stops making desktops. Of course those of us on this site are members of the Hacker Class. Putting our own house in order might involve writing code, but meaninful contributions can come in the form of bug reports or even just using software and occasionally writing something about how you use it.
- pokemongoaway 8y ago
  All we need for it to start winning is one great proaudio app (like Ableton) and one great provideo suite (like Adobe). Once we get some high spenders running hardware with Linux, that money will transform competition and make Macs better too.
21 8y ago
If anyone remembers the long discussions at the start of 2000s in relation to music/video pirating, this is not "stealing", it's "intellectual property something something". The content companies had giant advertising campaigns trying to brand this as "theft" or "stealing". Of course, when they sued someone they used the proper term: "IP violation" I'm not arguing if it's acceptable or not, but it's not the same as theft which leaves the owner without the item.
- dogma1138 8y ago
  It’s on the same level as IP theft of any kind since you cause some loss of revenue and investment, now what portion of piracy results in a financial loss is a different story but it’s not 0. Look at it this way if I steal your trade secrets and clone your product after you spent R&D money on it I’ve essentially “stolen” both a part of your revenue and your investment. Music, film and games cost money to develop and produce pirating them does incur a financial penalty and that does fall under the common definition of theft. However as far as Apple goes if you buy a copy of their OS you can easily consider that acceptable since EULA restrictions on the usage can be ethically counter argued.
  - kimdotcom 8y ago
    Infringement != theft
    - dogma1138 8y ago
      IP infringement and theft are different things, infringement is often done in regards to IP that is in the open, if I hack and steal your trade secrets which are by definition secrets and not protected by a patent what is that then? And in any case you are arguing about semantics, "theft" is also technically not a singular legal definition but an amalgamation of different civil and criminal legal statues. In most jurisdictions intangible property also does fall under the broader definition of theft: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theft
      - 8y ago
Gys 8y ago
My main (additional) consideration: to develop for any Apple platform its required to use MacOS. There is no alternative way for developing and publishing in Apple App Stores.
- jasonkostempski 8y ago
  There was a single year where my primary machine was a Mac because I had to do some iOS work. Since I did't want the hassle of dealing with multiple machines every day, I went with a MacBook. As soon as I realized this was exactly what Apple wanted (to force developers to user their machines if they have to develop for their platform, even if they primarily develop for other platforms), I started my migration away from iOS development forever. In that year, I also learned the hard way that it's a terrible idea to have a business model that relies on an iOS presence as Apple will reject your app and/or it's mission critical updates without a care in the world.
- redial 8y ago
  Only for iOS, tvOS and watchOS, because ironically, you don't really need a Mac to develop for macOS.
  - jhasse 8y ago
    How can I develop for macOS without a Mac?
JadeNB 8y ago
> - macOS gets more iOS-ified with each release and some people don’t like that How does running the same software on a different machine do anything to address this?
- genericid 8y ago
  It means you don't give Apple money.
  - JadeNB 8y ago
    > It means you don't give Apple money. Well, sure, but where's the victory in using something you don't like (the situation that peatmoss (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17709084 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17709084) describes) for free? Sure, it's better than using something you don't like and paying for it, but (1) you're still investing time and effort, if not money, and (2) it seems better still just not to use the thing you don't like.
    - genericid 8y ago
      - You oppose the direction Mac OS is heading but still like the current version, or - You like Mac OS after modifying it to counter its Iosification but don't want to support a company that makes you jump to those hoops, or - You actually like Mac OS but oppose Apple's tendency to restrict their user's freedom on principle. Using a hackintosh just because you don't like Apple would be pointless, of course.
alexktz 8y ago
> If we lose general purpose computing to a world of app-store enabled iPad Pros and Windows Store-locked Surfaces, we will have lost something important I think. Absolutely. Here, here.

tokenizerrr 8y ago

I really don't get why I would want to run an operating system where the vendor refuses to support my hardware. Also, the font color on this blog is absolutely horrible.

suprfnk 8y ago
> the font color on this blog is absolutely horrible. Yeah, I've noticed more sites do this. Super annoying. I made this bookmark for those cases: javascript:(()=>{document.querySelectorAll("p,div,article,section,ul,ol,li").forEach(x=>{x.style["color"]="black";});})();
- MisterTea 8y ago
  Thank you for that. Nothing worse than shitty web design.
pmiller2 8y ago
I think this is the real reason not to build a hackintosh. I don’t find the “theft” argument compelling, because Apple doesn’t even sell OSX anymore. They’re a hardware company.
pixel_fcker 8y ago
There’s not really a vendor here since macOS is free. Linux isn’t exactly free from the need to choose well-supported hardware either, particularly of you need to run a more stable distro
- dylan604 8y ago
  macOS isn’t really free. It just “comes with” the hardware you just bought. You’re not supposed to download the OS unless you have qualifying hardware. A hackintosh rig does not qualify.

wodenokoto 8y ago

> - you can’t get a good keyboard (for some definitions of good) You mean like, a PS/2 keyboard or what are you on about? Any bluetooth or usb keyboard works on any regular mac. > - macOS gets more iOS-ified with each release and some people don’t like that Again, what are you on about? A hackintosh is running a just as ios-ivied macOS as a regular mac.

detaro 8y ago
You are arguing against a point the parent doesn't make, they are arguing against using Hackintoshes at all. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17709707 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17709707
neon_electro 8y ago
I think he's implying that you would run an older, less iOS-ified version of MacOS on the Hackintosh.
- eanzenberg 8y ago
  You can still do the same on mac hardware though.
- zargon 8y ago
  No, peatmoss's argument is to not use macOS because (among other reasons) Apple is making it less desirable (iOS-ifying it). Don't use it on Apple hardware, don't use it on hackintosh hardware.
mschuster91 8y ago
> You mean like, a PS/2 keyboard or what are you on about? I believe GP refers to the crapboards in the recent MacBook Pro lineup, which are amazingly bad. Also, IIRC Apple doesn't offer a real wired keyboard anymore.
- peatmoss 8y ago
  Correct. That was my intent.

e12e 8y ago

> Most people invoking a moral imperative to not make hackintoshes are coming from the angle that it’s stealing from Apple. I don't feel a moral obligation not to steal from Apple. I'm not sure I could steal (and use) an amount from them that would impact them at all. I mean even if I stole a classroom full of MacBook pro's in order to give free programming classes - it's not like it would affect Apple in any meaningful way. But I don't quite get why anyone would go out of their way to get hw they'll never be able to run legally licensed os on. For fun and learning, sure. Turn your linux/bsd box into a hackintosh by dual booting. But you can never do any work on it without risk. So what's the point? Sure you can "buy" a copy of os x - but you only get install media and a license to run on Apple hw.

hellisothers 8y ago
What does “never be able to run a legally licensed os” mean in this context? I am an iOS engineer and avid photographer: I work on a Hackintosh, I develop my photos on my Hackintosh. I’ve had 0 problems with this setup and it cost me 1/10th as much as a similarly specced Mac. And my “similar” I’m being generous to the Mac because my machine is faster
- bobwaycott 8y ago
  I’m guessing they’re referring to the fact that Apple’s EULA prohibits—or prohibited at one time, I believe it still does—running macOS on anything other than Apple hardware. Hence, a Hackintosh violates the EULA. Not saying it’s bad or not. I despise EULAs. I think that’s what the parent means, though.
  - deong 8y ago
    I don't think he's at all concerned about the license. He's just saying most people won't and shouldn't do "real work" on a machine that could break at any point with no possibility for support.
    - e12e 8y ago

wilsonnb3 8y ago

>Most people invoking a moral imperative to not make hackintoshes are coming from the angle that it’s stealing from Apple. >I look at it another way. Apple, as a company is failing to meet the needs of some of its users: I don't see how the two perspectives are related, unless you think a company failing to meet your needs as a consumer is a valid reason to steal from said company.

detaro 8y ago
They aren't saying they are related except that they are both arguments against using Hackintoshes?
- wilsonnb3 8y ago
  By saying that they don't look at it as stealing and then saying that they look at it another way, there is an implication that the way they look at it somehow relates to the perspective that it's stealing. In other words, there has to be some reason that they don't see it as stealing but do see it as a failure by Apple to meet the needs of it's consumers. That reason is the relationship between the two concepts and I don't understand what that relationship is.
  - detaro 8y ago
    No, they just see the their argument as a better one against making a Hackintosh. No need to even consider the "stealing" angle if you think a Hackintosh would be bad anyways.
    - wilsonnb3 8y ago
      I didn't read their argument as being anti-hackintosh. I read their argument as "some people say it's immoral to run a hackintosh, but I think it's not immoral because Apple isn't providing their consumers with a valid alternative".
      - detaro 8y ago

AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago

> I use Linux (and OpenBSD occasionally) these days [...] may be the last un-nerfed general purpose computing platform standing. I really hope you're not right about this, but unfortunately it seems all too likely. Linux will finally win on the desktop not because it finally starts listening to potential users and making things better, but because everyone else just stops making desktops.

peatmoss 8y ago
> it finally starts listening to potential users and making things better, but because everyone else just stops making desktops. Of course those of us on this site are members of the Hacker Class. Putting our own house in order might involve writing code, but meaninful contributions can come in the form of bug reports or even just using software and occasionally writing something about how you use it.
pokemongoaway 8y ago
All we need for it to start winning is one great proaudio app (like Ableton) and one great provideo suite (like Adobe). Once we get some high spenders running hardware with Linux, that money will transform competition and make Macs better too.

21 8y ago

If anyone remembers the long discussions at the start of 2000s in relation to music/video pirating, this is not "stealing", it's "intellectual property something something". The content companies had giant advertising campaigns trying to brand this as "theft" or "stealing". Of course, when they sued someone they used the proper term: "IP violation" I'm not arguing if it's acceptable or not, but it's not the same as theft which leaves the owner without the item.

dogma1138 8y ago
It’s on the same level as IP theft of any kind since you cause some loss of revenue and investment, now what portion of piracy results in a financial loss is a different story but it’s not 0. Look at it this way if I steal your trade secrets and clone your product after you spent R&D money on it I’ve essentially “stolen” both a part of your revenue and your investment. Music, film and games cost money to develop and produce pirating them does incur a financial penalty and that does fall under the common definition of theft. However as far as Apple goes if you buy a copy of their OS you can easily consider that acceptable since EULA restrictions on the usage can be ethically counter argued.
- kimdotcom 8y ago
  Infringement != theft
  - dogma1138 8y ago
    IP infringement and theft are different things, infringement is often done in regards to IP that is in the open, if I hack and steal your trade secrets which are by definition secrets and not protected by a patent what is that then? And in any case you are arguing about semantics, "theft" is also technically not a singular legal definition but an amalgamation of different civil and criminal legal statues. In most jurisdictions intangible property also does fall under the broader definition of theft: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theft
    - 8y ago

Gys 8y ago

My main (additional) consideration: to develop for any Apple platform its required to use MacOS. There is no alternative way for developing and publishing in Apple App Stores.

jasonkostempski 8y ago
There was a single year where my primary machine was a Mac because I had to do some iOS work. Since I did't want the hassle of dealing with multiple machines every day, I went with a MacBook. As soon as I realized this was exactly what Apple wanted (to force developers to user their machines if they have to develop for their platform, even if they primarily develop for other platforms), I started my migration away from iOS development forever. In that year, I also learned the hard way that it's a terrible idea to have a business model that relies on an iOS presence as Apple will reject your app and/or it's mission critical updates without a care in the world.
redial 8y ago
Only for iOS, tvOS and watchOS, because ironically, you don't really need a Mac to develop for macOS.
- jhasse 8y ago
  How can I develop for macOS without a Mac?

JadeNB 8y ago

> - macOS gets more iOS-ified with each release and some people don’t like that How does running the same software on a different machine do anything to address this?

genericid 8y ago
It means you don't give Apple money.
- JadeNB 8y ago
  > It means you don't give Apple money. Well, sure, but where's the victory in using something you don't like (the situation that peatmoss (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17709084 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17709084) describes) for free? Sure, it's better than using something you don't like and paying for it, but (1) you're still investing time and effort, if not money, and (2) it seems better still just not to use the thing you don't like.
  - genericid 8y ago
    - You oppose the direction Mac OS is heading but still like the current version, or - You like Mac OS after modifying it to counter its Iosification but don't want to support a company that makes you jump to those hoops, or - You actually like Mac OS but oppose Apple's tendency to restrict their user's freedom on principle. Using a hackintosh just because you don't like Apple would be pointless, of course.

alexktz 8y ago

> If we lose general purpose computing to a world of app-store enabled iPad Pros and Windows Store-locked Surfaces, we will have lost something important I think. Absolutely. Here, here.