14 ms·

An office building in Seattle that doesn't have air conditioning

92 points by dsr12 8y ago

_hardwaregeek 8y ago
I'm kind of amazed that natural temperature management such as geothermal cooling isn't more of a thing. If you were to design a house with the sleeping spaces below ground, wouldn't you save a lot on cooling and heating costs?
- swozey 8y ago
  I was just reading that Bill Gates' house is "Earth-sheltered" -- not sure how common that is, though, I live in the desert.
  - denimnerd 8y ago
    he lives on the side of a cliff overlooking a lake
    - swozey 8y ago
      Right, but his house is built into the cliff specifically to help with thermo/electricity costs. At least according to what I read. Interestingly enough his house is worth something like $150MM and his neighbors are $8M. If you Google map him (boring weekend) the person directly across from him has a fairly normal house with very normal cars (old 4runners, etc.). Evidently he bought that land in 1988. The most interesting part of google mapping it was his curious gate. He's got a really weirdly designed entry gate. Couldn't find any info on it, though. My friends usually have their initials or their "crest" as gates.
      - denimnerd 8y ago
        i went by it in 01 on a boat. there was. an incognito security guard on a wind surf rig out front. he was just sitting on the board with the sail in the water. amusing.
  - jay-anderson 8y ago
    I live in the desert as well. I'd love to have a house with better insulation to spend less on AC. Earth sheltered homes seems like a great way to do that (though there are other problems - e.g. moisture, heavier roof). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0oFJ2jbkDI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0oFJ2jbkDI, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oej6EvxBJkI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oej6EvxBJkI - here's a couple examples (she has visited others as well. Short of that I'd settle for a basement. Someday perhaps.
  - southern_cross 8y ago
    > not sure how common that is, though, I live in the desert. Google "Rockland Ranch".
- inetknght 8y ago
  Look at what London has done to their subways. Geothermal cooling only works so much and eventually your geo becomes a thermal battery saturated with heat and won't take any more.
  - saeranv 8y ago
    Exactly, even if you have closed loop geothermal heat pumps (which more efficiently exchanges heat from the thermal mass of the ground and the refrigerant pumped through a heat exchanger) you are still limited in the amount of heat the refrigerant can exhaust into the ground before you've heated up the ground where it's not possible. And vice-versa in winter where you can freeze t he ground solid by doing the opposite. Still a good idea, but has scale issues especially for high-density areas.
- TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
  Have you heard of the town Cooper Pedy in South Australia? A standard three-bedroom cave home with lounge, kitchen, and bathroom can be excavated out of the rock in the hillside for a similar price to building a house on the surface. However, dugouts remain at a constant temperature, while surface buildings need air conditioning, especially during the summer months, when temperatures often exceed 40 °C (104 °F). There are several motels offering underground accommodation, ranging from a few rooms to the entire motel being a dug-out. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coober_Pedy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coober_Pedy
- syshum 8y ago
  Depends on many factors including soil type, water table height, drainage, etc. In many instances it would cost you many many times more to build underground than any savings in heating and cooling do to the problems with underground building poses In my area basements have continual problems with moisture penetration because we have high annual rain fall, soil that holds water, and high water tables making building under ground very very expensive and over 30+ years a continual maintenance problem for the owner
- TylerE 8y ago
  That would be illegal most places. Bedrooms have to have an opening window, lest people be trapped in a fire.
  - thesimon 8y ago
    Well, you could have a window that leads to a shaft. You probably want some natural light anyways.
aaron695 8y ago
So, you have to leave before 4:30, which means you have to get in dam early, dam dam early if your rushing a project and need a slightly longer day. Do we get the cognitive dissonance of how this flies against the 'other' hacker dogma about some people are late starters? How uneven sleep cycles are unhealthy? Do we get how air pollution kills millions each year? Do we get how we KNOW open plan offices suck but they are everywhere because floor space size is a huge cost driver. These buildings are cool art projects, cool experimental design projects, awesome to have in the world, but they just don't work as a solution. AC is here to stay. It's healthy, it's $ efficient and I'd like to see given the freedoms and efficiencies it gives if it truly does costs us more energy than the alternatives. AC allows us to live tightly in cities, true environmentalism.
dev_dull 8y ago
> It’s 85 degrees outside the Terry Thomas building; inside it’s 78 degrees In other words, no better than working in a shaded outdoor area. That’s too hot to work in my opinion. I think they can do a lot better.
- zavi 8y ago
  > You forget how hardwired humans are to really enjoy the natural environment," she said. People get respite from being connected to nature, she said, "even in an urban environment like a city" Um, no I don't think I'll enjoy working @ 78F much.
  - aurelian15 8y ago
    Why? 25°C is absolutely fine for working inside, at least for me. A little cooler and I need a sweater and long pants. This summer I've mainly worked at home (no AC, Southern Ontario), because I don't want to bring my winter clothes to work. Combine a room cooled to 20°C, the AC breeze, and me sitting at a desk without a scarf and I have a sore throat in under two hours.
    - mindcrime 8y ago
      78°F is at least 10° too hot for me to be comfortable. I'd go nuts if I had to work in that kind of heat all day.
      - colordrops 8y ago
        Even in short clothing?
        dnbgfher 8y ago
        For me, yes. Even at 65 I'm very happy wearing shorts and tshirts.
        mindcrime 8y ago
stuckinarut 8y ago
This building wants to kill old people and inconvenience everyone else during every heat wave. Not as catchy a title I get.
- all_blue_chucks 8y ago
  This is a heat wave by Seattle standards. 78 degrees doesn't kill old people.
  - txcwpalpha 8y ago
    Yea, 78 degrees is considered a comfortable room temperature in many parts of the world. The vast majority of households in Asia, South America, Africa, and AFAIK many parts of Europe do not have A/C at all. It's nowhere near "kill old people" levels. It's kind of offputting how spoiled and fragile the Americans in this thread seem to be responding to the thought of a room without A/C.
    - mrep 8y ago
      Maybe we are used to be comfortable. Also, consider that not everyones body works that same and is perfectly comfortable at the same temperature. There is a reason crime is correlated with temperature: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/data/ct-crime-heat-analysis-htmlstory.html http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/data/ct-crime-heat-analys...
      - txcwpalpha 8y ago
        Nearly every human being on Earth (exceptions being people with certain health conditions) is capable of being perfectly comfortable at 78 degrees, they just have to adjust to it. My comment isn't directed at someone who is saying "I'm used to being colder than 78 degrees and that seems a little hot to me". My comment is directed at the people who act like a room being 78 degrees is a war crime and, as originally quoted, "kills old people". That kind of perspective is narrow-minded and dismisses the billions of humans who don't live spoiled lives inside 65 degree buildings every day (I say this as someone who prefers my apartment to be an icy 68 degrees).
jonhendry18 8y ago
I bet they'll have to install AC within ten years.
- briandear 8y ago
  They’ll have to install it if they ever want to sell the building. People that buy buildings are rarely interested in living someone else’s experiment. I could almost guarantee that given two buildings, the one without proper HVAC is going to be harder to sell.
- godzillabrennus 8y ago
  At great additional cost.
connoredel 8y ago
This is why paperweights exist. Office buildings all used to have ventilator shafts which effectively created lower pressure in the interior of the building. In order to make it work, you needed to have your office window open AND an interior window open (typically above your office door, so you could still keep your door closed). As you can imagine, there was a lot of wind whipping through offices. This is why the paperweight was invented -- and also why no one uses paperweights anymore.
- vortico 8y ago
  No longer using paper is also a factor.
  - kwhitefoot 8y ago
    There is more paper printed now than ever before. I think you are probably right about not using it though.
    - ptaipale 8y ago
      Paper use is in decline in North America and West Europe. In China, it is on the rise.
      - std_throwaway 8y ago
        China invented paper but Germany invented the printing press. Now China exports more printers but Germany exports more paper.
        Pulcinella 8y ago
        The printing press existed before Gutenberg, even in China. Gutenberg’s invention was movable type.
        dorchadas 8y ago
Proven 8y ago
I'd always choose one that have AC (and turn it off then I feel like it) But that's the thing with socialism - it doesn't work without coercion, so as long as you don't have a choice or are heavily taxed to not make a "wrong" one, you'll love our green buildings!
throwaway413 8y ago
I lived in Seattle for 20 years. A/C in apartments is relatively common these days, but definitely still not the norm for houses - unlike CA.
- loeg 8y ago
  I think it's mostly a function of building age. A lot of Seattle housing stock dates to 1920-1940. Apartments tend to be newer; certainly the new large apartment buildings all have it (as well as modern spec insulation).
  - throwaway413 8y ago
    Fair enough. However, the home I lived in for 20 years (on the Eastside) was built in 1990 and had no A/C. Such was the case for most homes I visited. When I moved to Phoenix, the home I lived in, built in 1912, had A/C.
- licyeus 8y ago
  I've been in Seattle the last 5 years, 3 of those in new "luxury" buildings. No apartment building I've lived in or toured has AC in-unit, though newer buildings will have it in common areas only. Further, many places have leases that disallow window-mounted AC units (not that the awning windows would cooperate). It's rough, esp. with windows on only one side for most apartments. I'd imagine developer incentives + LEED certifications are going to maintain the status quo.
- seanmcdirmid 8y ago
  Only in luxury or eco buildings. Most of the places I looked at in downtown Bellevue last year either lacked AC, or lacked windows you could open and had very centralized AC (the green buildings). My current place has a ceiling fan because it is on the top floor. It can get really hot up here, but still no AC unless you buy it yourself. It was built in the early 00s. Even the fairly newish building (< 10 years old) we looked at next to City Center lacked AC.
h4b4n3r0 8y ago
Seattle is hostile to comfort IMO. They deliberately make it hard and expensive to park in the city, even though it’s not really an option for anyone with kids to live without a car. I wish the owner of this building the best of luck in finding businesses willing to lease the space. Political correctness can’t be sustained if you have to sweat profusely to do it.
- loeg 8y ago
  > Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents.
- tangentspace 8y ago
  I have kids, and have a car, but take the bus into downtown Seattle so I don't have to park or deal with traffic. It's an option that works fine for me, so I'd hardly say there's no option other than parking. And while I'd say I'm reasonably open minded, I'm not particularly politically correct or making myself uncomfortable to do this. On the contrary, I enjoy the opportunity to kick back and read on my iPad instead of driving.
  - h4b4n3r0 8y ago
    How do you drop off your kids to school or do massive runs on groceries? How about extracurriculars? How about picking them up from school? Swim team perhaps (have to drive all over the state to participate in competitions), or even soccer, or math tutor. All of this requires a car pretty much. But that is a tangent, as another HN reader pointed out. What’s not a tangent is that I will not work in an office that’s hotter than about 72F. It’s simply out of the question.
    - tangentspace 8y ago
      Simple, I use the park and ride. I still drive to do all these things on the way to and from the P&R, and it's really quite convenient. I totally understand this won't work out for everyone, though. Just like that office, it may not work out for you to work in such temperatures, but you can't necessarily extrapolate to conclude that others will be miserable. I've lived in Seattle since the 80's and having AC everywhere seems to be a pretty new thing here. Until recently most houses and schools didn't have AC since the climate is so mild, and I never thought it was particularly uncomfortable in the summer as long as a fan was running.
kylec 8y ago
Ten years ago, they built their new headquarters in Seattle’s South Lake Union neighborhood — without air conditioning, to prove it could be done. It’s 85 degrees outside the Terry Thomas building; inside it’s 78 degrees. I guess it can't be done. Or if it can, this building is not proof.
paulcole 8y ago
My dad built our home near Jacksonville Florida to take advantage of the direction of prevailing winds. It was essentially all open windows and ceiling fans with no air conditioning. During the summer it would be so hot and humid in the house that you were wet again before you could finish drying off after a shower. During the winter the complete lack of insulation meant that temperatures inside the house would get down into the 40s during cold snaps. On the plus side he was able to brag about us never having an electric bill above $20.
RcouF1uZ4gsC 8y ago
Getting rid of AC is not that helpful in combatting climate change. Unlike, heating which needs fossil fuels to work efficiently, AC runs well on electricity. In addition, the days that are hot are correlated with days where you have good sunlight, so solar should be able to generate a lot of electricity. Finally, unless we are able to deploy cheap, abundant carbon-free electricity throughout the world, we are screwed. You are never going to convince the general population to make themselves more uncomfortable and give up technology for a benefit 30 years in the future.
- userbinator 8y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump are even more efficient than fossil-fuel based heating, and can be used for cooling too.
bradlys 8y ago
Cool - guess no one in that building has pollen allergies or what not. Clearly designed for only one person in mind. Personally, I wouldn't work there.
- mlthoughts2018 8y ago
  Yeah, better to work in a dog-friendly, glass whiteboard panopticon with lots of obligatory-alcohol-focused meeting spaces and management spending more on the coffee station than on sincere productivity tools for professional engineers.
  - yathern 8y ago
    That's a bit of a false dichotomy. There's no reason this place with no AC doesn't also pride itself on being dog friendly or have issues with spending money on the wrong things.
  - bradlys 8y ago
    Not sure where you get that idea. I lived in Seattle for 3.5 years. When I was a software developer there I never encountered literally any of what you said beyond whiteboards and a lot of glass. (Literally surrounded by glass since I worked on the 13th floor of UW Tower) Your reaction is over the top.
piyushpr134 8y ago
I am sorry but this sounds stupid. You do not build non ac buildings with glass exteriors. You build them with bricks. Moreover you have windows for cross ventilation, high roof, shades over windows and thick brick walls elsewhere to keep the sun out. Another, more scientific way could be to pump air through a 20-30 deep well so that it gets naturally cooled and use it to ventilate the building.
- bornabox 8y ago
  Exactly. In Brazil, there are quite a few big buildings build with this methodology (long wells that cool the air). I can think of one hospital in the northeast, one big factory (printing business) near São Paulo, etc. It works exceptionally well, but as OP mentioned, glass exteriors are not a good idea.
- piyushpr134 8y ago
  20-30ft deep
Animats 8y ago
Somebody there has air conditioning. There's a lot less HVAC on their roof than usual, but there is some.[1] [1] https://www.google.com/maps/place/225+Terry+Ave+N+%23200,+Seattle,+WA+98109/@47.6205622,-122.3375243,80a,35y,180h https://www.google.com/maps/place/225+Terry+Ave+N+%23200,+Se...
- a_f 8y ago
  Server room maybe?
- kayfox 8y ago
  I don't see much, just two cage like structures that are probably elevator motor houses. Are you mixing them up with the building next door?
incadenza 8y ago
I think this idea is really interesting. Perhaps Seattle is temperate enough, but a backup AC system may make sense. You’d still get the energy savings for at least some percent of the year.
kleiba 8y ago
I currently live in Germany. From my perspective, a more shocking headline would be: An office building in Germany that HAS air conditioning.
- raverbashing 8y ago
  Yes, deeply annoying. But it is becoming more popular.
- ulfw 8y ago
  Yes. Germany is incredibly cheap that way, claiming it's "not worth it due to short summers". Doesn't matter. If you need it only 2-3 months a year, that's still a NEED right there. Especially during 38C days.
  - Scoundreller 8y ago
    At least Germany does windows right. I have been impressed staying at hostels that had, what I would call, “suicide windows”. In Toronto apartments, you have to take invasive action to let the window open more than 10cm.
    - SneakerXZ 8y ago
      Does windows right? In our office (Berlin) we are not even allowed to open them. It is funny people discuss 25°C. We had last week 36°C inside of our office, and a solution from the company? Work from home.
      - namibj 8y ago
        Actually the solution is paid leave as it's not possible to do office work at these temperatures. Read up on it, for next time.
        s_trumpet 8y ago
        Can I get a source on this? 36C isn't that uncommon a temperature where I'm at - it'll even hit 36+ on a hot winter's day.
ivansmf 8y ago
Yes! I still can work on my open floor plan. Let's open the windows and connect to the awesome traffic jam outside.
bumholio 8y ago
I think a much more practical avenue is to chill the building using the absorbtion solar cycle. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absorption_refrigerator https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absorption_refrigerator When the sun is directly overhead you get maximum solar power and that's when you need the most chilling.
- cimmanom 8y ago
  Except for 2 factors: 1) in many places, heat peaks around 4pm rather than noon in the summer because heat from the sun accumulates throughout the day 2) days when it’s 85+F with 90% humidity and overcast (such as the last week or two here in NYC)
mnm1 8y ago
Seems un-American to me. Seattle is only about two hours north of me so the weather is similar and it's hot as hell some days during the summer with temperatures around 100 degrees. The inside would probably be 90 during those days. I worked at a place that was 85 during the winter, got extremely sick and quit. I couldn't imagine working in this place in the summer. The greatest thing about America is air conditioning. I guess no one told these guys. It sure would be a huge reason to avoid being employed there. Luckily it's just one building. No wonder no one else wants to do this.
pieterr 8y ago
It remains funny for a non-US-resident to read about office temperatures of 78 degrees. :-) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fahrenheit#Usage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fahrenheit#Usage
lighttower 8y ago
Why don't they put solar reflectors or awning on the windows to prevent sun from getting into the office?
ForFreedom 8y ago
Don't their computers get hot?
blumomo 8y ago
Our WeWork offices in Berlin also have no air conditioning.
expertentipp 8y ago
This reminds me the office environment in Germany. The landlords and office management will go over the top with the most sophisticated and absurd fans, installations, and running water cooled radiators, but will never, never, install the bloody AC. Probably because the AC industry (whatever that would mean) is not big there, while all the other industries are. Have a merry >37 C this week:)
tomohawk 8y ago
Love the concept, but would totally not work in the mid-atlantic. Summer days of 95 degrees with 95 percent humidity are not uncommon. Even worse, there are times it just doesn't cool down at night. In such conditions the building would become an oven where all surfaces are at around 85 degrees plus. If you're in an area where it cools down at night and the temperature is more moderate, being able to open the windows in a building designed this way would be really nice.
- rovr138 8y ago
  Agreed. I’ve lived in San Francisco, Oakland and I can see it working there. I’ve lived in Indiana and if it has heat, I can see it working there when it’s warmer. I’ve lived in Puerto Rico. I can’t see this working there.
upofadown 8y ago
Here is an example of a large office building that is passively heated/cooled. It uses a dedicated solar chimney for air circulation. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manitoba_Hydro_Place https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manitoba_Hydro_Place * https://www.hydro.mb.ca/corporate/history/mh_place_design_and_construction.shtml https://www.hydro.mb.ca/corporate/history/mh_place_design_an...
rubyn00bie 8y ago
78 degrees Fahrenheit inside (85 outside) is way too damn hot to work comfortably for me. There is literally no way I could work somewhere like that. What happens when it’s 95 outside? A cold office with a/c helps keep me awake and functioning. Being too hot staring at a lightbulb all day seems oppressive.
csomar 8y ago
I was in Cairo in the summer. The city centre was literally burning. Temperatures over 40C. No green spaces. Tight buildings. Around 2-3PM we arrived to the Historical Islamic City and sitting at the entrance of the mosque I noticed a strong fresh air flow. Despite the boiling temperatures, sitting there was actually enjoyable. And this is despite the massive mosques buildings surrounding us. The interior was also pretty cool. I think it had to do with these things: 1. The way the massive walls were engineered to allow the creation of strong airflows. 2. The material used to build the walls provides good insulation. 3. The disposition of the walls provides shelter from the sun. That being said, I have my doubts that the building in the picture will provide the necessary cool.

92 points by dsr12 8y ago

I'm kind of amazed that natural temperature management such as geothermal cooling isn't more of a thing. If you were to design a house with the sleeping spaces below ground, wouldn't you save a lot on cooling and heating costs?

swozey 8y ago
I was just reading that Bill Gates' house is "Earth-sheltered" -- not sure how common that is, though, I live in the desert.
- denimnerd 8y ago
  he lives on the side of a cliff overlooking a lake
  - swozey 8y ago
    Right, but his house is built into the cliff specifically to help with thermo/electricity costs. At least according to what I read. Interestingly enough his house is worth something like $150MM and his neighbors are $8M. If you Google map him (boring weekend) the person directly across from him has a fairly normal house with very normal cars (old 4runners, etc.). Evidently he bought that land in 1988. The most interesting part of google mapping it was his curious gate. He's got a really weirdly designed entry gate. Couldn't find any info on it, though. My friends usually have their initials or their "crest" as gates.
    - denimnerd 8y ago
      i went by it in 01 on a boat. there was. an incognito security guard on a wind surf rig out front. he was just sitting on the board with the sail in the water. amusing.
- jay-anderson 8y ago
  I live in the desert as well. I'd love to have a house with better insulation to spend less on AC. Earth sheltered homes seems like a great way to do that (though there are other problems - e.g. moisture, heavier roof). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0oFJ2jbkDI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0oFJ2jbkDI, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oej6EvxBJkI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oej6EvxBJkI - here's a couple examples (she has visited others as well. Short of that I'd settle for a basement. Someday perhaps.
- southern_cross 8y ago
  > not sure how common that is, though, I live in the desert. Google "Rockland Ranch".
inetknght 8y ago
Look at what London has done to their subways. Geothermal cooling only works so much and eventually your geo becomes a thermal battery saturated with heat and won't take any more.
- saeranv 8y ago
  Exactly, even if you have closed loop geothermal heat pumps (which more efficiently exchanges heat from the thermal mass of the ground and the refrigerant pumped through a heat exchanger) you are still limited in the amount of heat the refrigerant can exhaust into the ground before you've heated up the ground where it's not possible. And vice-versa in winter where you can freeze t he ground solid by doing the opposite. Still a good idea, but has scale issues especially for high-density areas.
TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
Have you heard of the town Cooper Pedy in South Australia? A standard three-bedroom cave home with lounge, kitchen, and bathroom can be excavated out of the rock in the hillside for a similar price to building a house on the surface. However, dugouts remain at a constant temperature, while surface buildings need air conditioning, especially during the summer months, when temperatures often exceed 40 °C (104 °F). There are several motels offering underground accommodation, ranging from a few rooms to the entire motel being a dug-out. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coober_Pedy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coober_Pedy
syshum 8y ago
Depends on many factors including soil type, water table height, drainage, etc. In many instances it would cost you many many times more to build underground than any savings in heating and cooling do to the problems with underground building poses In my area basements have continual problems with moisture penetration because we have high annual rain fall, soil that holds water, and high water tables making building under ground very very expensive and over 30+ years a continual maintenance problem for the owner
TylerE 8y ago
That would be illegal most places. Bedrooms have to have an opening window, lest people be trapped in a fire.
- thesimon 8y ago
  Well, you could have a window that leads to a shaft. You probably want some natural light anyways.

aaron695 8y ago

So, you have to leave before 4:30, which means you have to get in dam early, dam dam early if your rushing a project and need a slightly longer day. Do we get the cognitive dissonance of how this flies against the 'other' hacker dogma about some people are late starters? How uneven sleep cycles are unhealthy? Do we get how air pollution kills millions each year? Do we get how we KNOW open plan offices suck but they are everywhere because floor space size is a huge cost driver. These buildings are cool art projects, cool experimental design projects, awesome to have in the world, but they just don't work as a solution. AC is here to stay. It's healthy, it's $ efficient and I'd like to see given the freedoms and efficiencies it gives if it truly does costs us more energy than the alternatives. AC allows us to live tightly in cities, true environmentalism.

dev_dull 8y ago

> It’s 85 degrees outside the Terry Thomas building; inside it’s 78 degrees In other words, no better than working in a shaded outdoor area. That’s too hot to work in my opinion. I think they can do a lot better.

zavi 8y ago
> You forget how hardwired humans are to really enjoy the natural environment," she said. People get respite from being connected to nature, she said, "even in an urban environment like a city" Um, no I don't think I'll enjoy working @ 78F much.
- aurelian15 8y ago
  Why? 25°C is absolutely fine for working inside, at least for me. A little cooler and I need a sweater and long pants. This summer I've mainly worked at home (no AC, Southern Ontario), because I don't want to bring my winter clothes to work. Combine a room cooled to 20°C, the AC breeze, and me sitting at a desk without a scarf and I have a sore throat in under two hours.
  - mindcrime 8y ago
    78°F is at least 10° too hot for me to be comfortable. I'd go nuts if I had to work in that kind of heat all day.
    - colordrops 8y ago
      Even in short clothing?
      - dnbgfher 8y ago
        For me, yes. Even at 65 I'm very happy wearing shorts and tshirts.
      - mindcrime 8y ago

stuckinarut 8y ago

This building wants to kill old people and inconvenience everyone else during every heat wave. Not as catchy a title I get.

all_blue_chucks 8y ago
This is a heat wave by Seattle standards. 78 degrees doesn't kill old people.
- txcwpalpha 8y ago
  Yea, 78 degrees is considered a comfortable room temperature in many parts of the world. The vast majority of households in Asia, South America, Africa, and AFAIK many parts of Europe do not have A/C at all. It's nowhere near "kill old people" levels. It's kind of offputting how spoiled and fragile the Americans in this thread seem to be responding to the thought of a room without A/C.
  - mrep 8y ago
    Maybe we are used to be comfortable. Also, consider that not everyones body works that same and is perfectly comfortable at the same temperature. There is a reason crime is correlated with temperature: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/data/ct-crime-heat-analysis-htmlstory.html http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/data/ct-crime-heat-analys...
    - txcwpalpha 8y ago
      Nearly every human being on Earth (exceptions being people with certain health conditions) is capable of being perfectly comfortable at 78 degrees, they just have to adjust to it. My comment isn't directed at someone who is saying "I'm used to being colder than 78 degrees and that seems a little hot to me". My comment is directed at the people who act like a room being 78 degrees is a war crime and, as originally quoted, "kills old people". That kind of perspective is narrow-minded and dismisses the billions of humans who don't live spoiled lives inside 65 degree buildings every day (I say this as someone who prefers my apartment to be an icy 68 degrees).

jonhendry18 8y ago

I bet they'll have to install AC within ten years.

briandear 8y ago
They’ll have to install it if they ever want to sell the building. People that buy buildings are rarely interested in living someone else’s experiment. I could almost guarantee that given two buildings, the one without proper HVAC is going to be harder to sell.
godzillabrennus 8y ago
At great additional cost.

connoredel 8y ago

This is why paperweights exist. Office buildings all used to have ventilator shafts which effectively created lower pressure in the interior of the building. In order to make it work, you needed to have your office window open AND an interior window open (typically above your office door, so you could still keep your door closed). As you can imagine, there was a lot of wind whipping through offices. This is why the paperweight was invented -- and also why no one uses paperweights anymore.

vortico 8y ago
No longer using paper is also a factor.
- kwhitefoot 8y ago
  There is more paper printed now than ever before. I think you are probably right about not using it though.
  - ptaipale 8y ago
    Paper use is in decline in North America and West Europe. In China, it is on the rise.
    - std_throwaway 8y ago
      China invented paper but Germany invented the printing press. Now China exports more printers but Germany exports more paper.
      - Pulcinella 8y ago
        The printing press existed before Gutenberg, even in China. Gutenberg’s invention was movable type.
        dorchadas 8y ago

Proven 8y ago

I'd always choose one that have AC (and turn it off then I feel like it) But that's the thing with socialism - it doesn't work without coercion, so as long as you don't have a choice or are heavily taxed to not make a "wrong" one, you'll love our green buildings!

throwaway413 8y ago

I lived in Seattle for 20 years. A/C in apartments is relatively common these days, but definitely still not the norm for houses - unlike CA.

loeg 8y ago
I think it's mostly a function of building age. A lot of Seattle housing stock dates to 1920-1940. Apartments tend to be newer; certainly the new large apartment buildings all have it (as well as modern spec insulation).
- throwaway413 8y ago
  Fair enough. However, the home I lived in for 20 years (on the Eastside) was built in 1990 and had no A/C. Such was the case for most homes I visited. When I moved to Phoenix, the home I lived in, built in 1912, had A/C.
licyeus 8y ago
I've been in Seattle the last 5 years, 3 of those in new "luxury" buildings. No apartment building I've lived in or toured has AC in-unit, though newer buildings will have it in common areas only. Further, many places have leases that disallow window-mounted AC units (not that the awning windows would cooperate). It's rough, esp. with windows on only one side for most apartments. I'd imagine developer incentives + LEED certifications are going to maintain the status quo.
seanmcdirmid 8y ago
Only in luxury or eco buildings. Most of the places I looked at in downtown Bellevue last year either lacked AC, or lacked windows you could open and had very centralized AC (the green buildings). My current place has a ceiling fan because it is on the top floor. It can get really hot up here, but still no AC unless you buy it yourself. It was built in the early 00s. Even the fairly newish building (< 10 years old) we looked at next to City Center lacked AC.

h4b4n3r0 8y ago

Seattle is hostile to comfort IMO. They deliberately make it hard and expensive to park in the city, even though it’s not really an option for anyone with kids to live without a car. I wish the owner of this building the best of luck in finding businesses willing to lease the space. Political correctness can’t be sustained if you have to sweat profusely to do it.

loeg 8y ago
> Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents.
tangentspace 8y ago
I have kids, and have a car, but take the bus into downtown Seattle so I don't have to park or deal with traffic. It's an option that works fine for me, so I'd hardly say there's no option other than parking. And while I'd say I'm reasonably open minded, I'm not particularly politically correct or making myself uncomfortable to do this. On the contrary, I enjoy the opportunity to kick back and read on my iPad instead of driving.
- h4b4n3r0 8y ago
  How do you drop off your kids to school or do massive runs on groceries? How about extracurriculars? How about picking them up from school? Swim team perhaps (have to drive all over the state to participate in competitions), or even soccer, or math tutor. All of this requires a car pretty much. But that is a tangent, as another HN reader pointed out. What’s not a tangent is that I will not work in an office that’s hotter than about 72F. It’s simply out of the question.
  - tangentspace 8y ago
    Simple, I use the park and ride. I still drive to do all these things on the way to and from the P&R, and it's really quite convenient. I totally understand this won't work out for everyone, though. Just like that office, it may not work out for you to work in such temperatures, but you can't necessarily extrapolate to conclude that others will be miserable. I've lived in Seattle since the 80's and having AC everywhere seems to be a pretty new thing here. Until recently most houses and schools didn't have AC since the climate is so mild, and I never thought it was particularly uncomfortable in the summer as long as a fan was running.

kylec 8y ago

Ten years ago, they built their new headquarters in Seattle’s South Lake Union neighborhood — without air conditioning, to prove it could be done. It’s 85 degrees outside the Terry Thomas building; inside it’s 78 degrees. I guess it can't be done. Or if it can, this building is not proof.

paulcole 8y ago

My dad built our home near Jacksonville Florida to take advantage of the direction of prevailing winds. It was essentially all open windows and ceiling fans with no air conditioning. During the summer it would be so hot and humid in the house that you were wet again before you could finish drying off after a shower. During the winter the complete lack of insulation meant that temperatures inside the house would get down into the 40s during cold snaps. On the plus side he was able to brag about us never having an electric bill above $20.

RcouF1uZ4gsC 8y ago

Getting rid of AC is not that helpful in combatting climate change. Unlike, heating which needs fossil fuels to work efficiently, AC runs well on electricity. In addition, the days that are hot are correlated with days where you have good sunlight, so solar should be able to generate a lot of electricity. Finally, unless we are able to deploy cheap, abundant carbon-free electricity throughout the world, we are screwed. You are never going to convince the general population to make themselves more uncomfortable and give up technology for a benefit 30 years in the future.

userbinator 8y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump are even more efficient than fossil-fuel based heating, and can be used for cooling too.

bradlys 8y ago

Cool - guess no one in that building has pollen allergies or what not. Clearly designed for only one person in mind. Personally, I wouldn't work there.

mlthoughts2018 8y ago
Yeah, better to work in a dog-friendly, glass whiteboard panopticon with lots of obligatory-alcohol-focused meeting spaces and management spending more on the coffee station than on sincere productivity tools for professional engineers.
- yathern 8y ago
  That's a bit of a false dichotomy. There's no reason this place with no AC doesn't also pride itself on being dog friendly or have issues with spending money on the wrong things.
- bradlys 8y ago
  Not sure where you get that idea. I lived in Seattle for 3.5 years. When I was a software developer there I never encountered literally any of what you said beyond whiteboards and a lot of glass. (Literally surrounded by glass since I worked on the 13th floor of UW Tower) Your reaction is over the top.

piyushpr134 8y ago

I am sorry but this sounds stupid. You do not build non ac buildings with glass exteriors. You build them with bricks. Moreover you have windows for cross ventilation, high roof, shades over windows and thick brick walls elsewhere to keep the sun out. Another, more scientific way could be to pump air through a 20-30 deep well so that it gets naturally cooled and use it to ventilate the building.

bornabox 8y ago
Exactly. In Brazil, there are quite a few big buildings build with this methodology (long wells that cool the air). I can think of one hospital in the northeast, one big factory (printing business) near São Paulo, etc. It works exceptionally well, but as OP mentioned, glass exteriors are not a good idea.
piyushpr134 8y ago
20-30ft deep

Animats 8y ago

Somebody there has air conditioning. There's a lot less HVAC on their roof than usual, but there is some.[1] [1] https://www.google.com/maps/place/225+Terry+Ave+N+%23200,+Seattle,+WA+98109/@47.6205622,-122.3375243,80a,35y,180h https://www.google.com/maps/place/225+Terry+Ave+N+%23200,+Se...

a_f 8y ago
Server room maybe?
kayfox 8y ago
I don't see much, just two cage like structures that are probably elevator motor houses. Are you mixing them up with the building next door?

incadenza 8y ago

I think this idea is really interesting. Perhaps Seattle is temperate enough, but a backup AC system may make sense. You’d still get the energy savings for at least some percent of the year.

kleiba 8y ago

I currently live in Germany. From my perspective, a more shocking headline would be: An office building in Germany that HAS air conditioning.

raverbashing 8y ago
Yes, deeply annoying. But it is becoming more popular.
ulfw 8y ago
Yes. Germany is incredibly cheap that way, claiming it's "not worth it due to short summers". Doesn't matter. If you need it only 2-3 months a year, that's still a NEED right there. Especially during 38C days.
- Scoundreller 8y ago
  At least Germany does windows right. I have been impressed staying at hostels that had, what I would call, “suicide windows”. In Toronto apartments, you have to take invasive action to let the window open more than 10cm.
  - SneakerXZ 8y ago
    Does windows right? In our office (Berlin) we are not even allowed to open them. It is funny people discuss 25°C. We had last week 36°C inside of our office, and a solution from the company? Work from home.
    - namibj 8y ago
      Actually the solution is paid leave as it's not possible to do office work at these temperatures. Read up on it, for next time.
      - s_trumpet 8y ago
        Can I get a source on this? 36C isn't that uncommon a temperature where I'm at - it'll even hit 36+ on a hot winter's day.

ivansmf 8y ago

Yes! I still can work on my open floor plan. Let's open the windows and connect to the awesome traffic jam outside.

bumholio 8y ago

I think a much more practical avenue is to chill the building using the absorbtion solar cycle. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absorption_refrigerator https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absorption_refrigerator When the sun is directly overhead you get maximum solar power and that's when you need the most chilling.

cimmanom 8y ago
Except for 2 factors: 1) in many places, heat peaks around 4pm rather than noon in the summer because heat from the sun accumulates throughout the day 2) days when it’s 85+F with 90% humidity and overcast (such as the last week or two here in NYC)

mnm1 8y ago

Seems un-American to me. Seattle is only about two hours north of me so the weather is similar and it's hot as hell some days during the summer with temperatures around 100 degrees. The inside would probably be 90 during those days. I worked at a place that was 85 during the winter, got extremely sick and quit. I couldn't imagine working in this place in the summer. The greatest thing about America is air conditioning. I guess no one told these guys. It sure would be a huge reason to avoid being employed there. Luckily it's just one building. No wonder no one else wants to do this.

pieterr 8y ago

It remains funny for a non-US-resident to read about office temperatures of 78 degrees. :-) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fahrenheit#Usage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fahrenheit#Usage

lighttower 8y ago

Why don't they put solar reflectors or awning on the windows to prevent sun from getting into the office?

ForFreedom 8y ago

Don't their computers get hot?

blumomo 8y ago

Our WeWork offices in Berlin also have no air conditioning.

expertentipp 8y ago

This reminds me the office environment in Germany. The landlords and office management will go over the top with the most sophisticated and absurd fans, installations, and running water cooled radiators, but will never, never, install the bloody AC. Probably because the AC industry (whatever that would mean) is not big there, while all the other industries are. Have a merry >37 C this week:)

tomohawk 8y ago

Love the concept, but would totally not work in the mid-atlantic. Summer days of 95 degrees with 95 percent humidity are not uncommon. Even worse, there are times it just doesn't cool down at night. In such conditions the building would become an oven where all surfaces are at around 85 degrees plus. If you're in an area where it cools down at night and the temperature is more moderate, being able to open the windows in a building designed this way would be really nice.

rovr138 8y ago
Agreed. I’ve lived in San Francisco, Oakland and I can see it working there. I’ve lived in Indiana and if it has heat, I can see it working there when it’s warmer. I’ve lived in Puerto Rico. I can’t see this working there.

upofadown 8y ago

Here is an example of a large office building that is passively heated/cooled. It uses a dedicated solar chimney for air circulation. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manitoba_Hydro_Place https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manitoba_Hydro_Place * https://www.hydro.mb.ca/corporate/history/mh_place_design_and_construction.shtml https://www.hydro.mb.ca/corporate/history/mh_place_design_an...

rubyn00bie 8y ago

78 degrees Fahrenheit inside (85 outside) is way too damn hot to work comfortably for me. There is literally no way I could work somewhere like that. What happens when it’s 95 outside? A cold office with a/c helps keep me awake and functioning. Being too hot staring at a lightbulb all day seems oppressive.

csomar 8y ago

I was in Cairo in the summer. The city centre was literally burning. Temperatures over 40C. No green spaces. Tight buildings. Around 2-3PM we arrived to the Historical Islamic City and sitting at the entrance of the mosque I noticed a strong fresh air flow. Despite the boiling temperatures, sitting there was actually enjoyable. And this is despite the massive mosques buildings surrounding us. The interior was also pretty cool. I think it had to do with these things: 1. The way the massive walls were engineered to allow the creation of strong airflows. 2. The material used to build the walls provides good insulation. 3. The disposition of the walls provides shelter from the sun. That being said, I have my doubts that the building in the picture will provide the necessary cool.