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It’s interesting the categories the author chose, as I had a similar tone with my mother when I finally started making good money. I grew up in a divorced hous

It’s interesting the categories the author chose, as I had a similar tone with my mother when I finally started making good money. I grew up in a divorced household. On one side I had a father and step mother who made large amounts of cash in a relatively inexpensive area. They vacationed regularly to Hawaii and Las Vegas, and prioritized spending money on themselves. My mother and step father combined to earn around $30k, were hyper frugal, and stressed about every expense. Any expense whatsoever was agony, and they made sure my sister and I understood their inability to buy things on a whim. So, as I bounced between houses each week, I yo-yo’d between borderline poverty (although they made it work) and quite high wealth. When I hit my mid to late 20s, my wife and I hit a point where we had no debt. Could go out anytime. Could rent any reasonable home in our area (couldn’t buy because we didn’t have that kind of down payment money), and traveled a few times a year throughout the world. When I contrasted this against how I felt after undergrad, while in grad school, where I was heavy in debt, had no car, and felt constant financial stress, it’s remarkable. As I’ve continued to grow older, I’ve now come to realize it wasn’t the travel, eating out, or the things I could buy that helped me to be less stressed, it was the lack of burden of worrying about how I would pay for X, Y, or Z. I make way less money now as I run my own startup, don’t go out that much as I do all the cooking, don’t travel that much because we can’t afford it, yet I carry the same lack of stress and worry as I did years back. Part of why I’d like to see universal, free at the point of delivery, health care in the United States is for this very reason. I’ve first hand experienced and witnessed the choice of not going to get needed medical care because of the financial burden. UBI is still highly experimental, and many other wealth normalization techniques have severe downsides that potentially outweigh the benefits; however, universal health care has enough clear data points of success in the rest of the world, from my vantage point, that maybe that can be the “level 0” of wealth in the United States.

arethuza 8y ago
Thanks for being careful to say "free at the point of delivery" - that was always one of the core principles of the UK NHS and everyone knows its not "free" - we all pay for it in our taxes - which I'm personally quite happy about.
- thfuran 8y ago
  >we all pay for it in our taxes - which I'm personally quite happy about The problem is that there seem to be entirely too few people in the US willing to pay for some benefit that other people receive, even if it would help them too. There are just so many people hung up on how "unfair" it is to have to pay for someone else's food stamps or health insurance or whatever.
  - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
    Maybe because when we do that we pay a dollar for every cent of benefit delivered. The answer to a corrupt and inefficient system is not to shovel in more money. If we were getting $.050 on the dollar you'd see a lot more people willing to kick in.
    - Daishiman 8y ago
      The solution is to actually care about accountability, not to send less money.
      - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
        Yes but the first is a prerequisite of the second. Reversing the order just makes the problem worse.
  - snikeris 8y ago
    I don't have any problems with paying money for other people's benefit, but I do have a problem when I'm forced to do so. Would it be fair if I took money from you and gave it to someone else who needed it more? Why is it fair when the government does it?
    - snikeris 8y ago
      Curious that I'm downvoted for coming out as one of the "many people hung up on how "unfair" it is". If you disagree with me you could at least answer my questions or try to change my mind.
grasshopperpurp 8y ago
>As I’ve continued to grow older, I’ve now come to realize it wasn’t the travel, eating out, or the things I could buy that helped me to be less stressed, it was the lack of burden of worrying about how I would pay for X, Y, or Z. Excellent post, and I love this observation. Security is the main thing people need to have a chance at happiness.
- nickjj 8y ago
  And that security threshold is much different for everyone. For example I'm not happy unless I have at least 12 months of runway to survive in my current state without dipping into long term savings investments. It just puts my mind at ease to know I don't have to think about rent, food, basic entertainment, etc. for a year at a time. Depending on what you do this could let you experiment without having financial motives. This is coming from someone who is a freelance developer for context.
  - sidlls 8y ago
    That isn't what is meant by security. Security means adequate housing (where "adequate" is clean with sufficient space for each person in the household to provide some privacy for hygiene, sleep, etc. and perhaps communal areas for cooking and laundry), adequate food (providing sufficient quantity and variety for thriving: neither excess nor deficiency, and not bare minimum), and adequate health care regardless of time frame. What you describe as your requirement for happiness is possibly well above or below what is meant here (depending on your lifestyle).
  - heavenlyblue 8y ago
    It’s called paranoia, generally. There’s probably at least 20% of the population of whichever country you live in who can’t have any savings beyond a single week after their payday. Statements like yours downplay the actual needs of someone in need.
- hinkley 8y ago
  When I first knew my mortgage was going to be paid no matter what, it made it a lot easier for me to take certain job offers. I didn't have to take the safe bet all the time. I'm in a safe bet now due to a couple contracts not going great. It's stressful enough that I'm spending money I shouldn't be on stress relief. But my emergency fund is full again, and I can't wait to get back to doing interesting, new, and/or important things.
mrdoops 8y ago
UBI is probably a bit too far in one direction to be a palatable solution. However Healthcare not being a financial concern for an individual or family is a very compelling idea. But can a universal healthcare system resolve many of the emerging rent-seeking behavior costs peripheral to the actual hospital costs? Things like medical supplies that, in the U.S. are significantly more expensive than elsewhere. Would a universal healthcare system only further subsidize that kind of exploitative pricing?
- paulddraper 8y ago
  Healthcare is expensive largely because the decision-maker does not foot most of the bill. If you have a universal healthcare system that would require mandatory prices.
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    > Healthcare is expensive largely because the decision-maker does not foot most of the bill. No, it's not, at least that's not the reason it's uniquely high cost in the US compared to the rest of the developed world, because that's not a differentiating factor.
    - paulddraper 8y ago
      Kindly help me understand my error. Is there anywhere where (1) prices aren't fixed (2) one party decides which healthcare services to receive (3) a different party pays the bills and (4) cost is significantly less than in the US?
- zrail 8y ago
  > can a universal healthcare system resolve many of the emerging rent-seeking behavior costs peripheral to the actual hospital costs? Yes. Universal healthcare systems almost all (with some notable exceptions) can and will negotiate with providers and suppliers to control costs. They are typically the largest buyer, so of course they have a lot of negotiating power. Notable exceptions include Medicare in the US being legally forbidden from negotiating drug prices.
mhneu 8y ago
This is a great comment. the lack of burden of worrying about how I would pay for X, Y, or Z I had the same experience of once worrying about that, and now not really having to. It's incredible. Imagine what it's like raising a family while having to worry every time you buy diapers or milk. And 57% of American adults have less than $1,000 and are in that category of worry. Wealth inequality is the central problem of our time.
ttul 8y ago
I can totally relate. When I was in my early 20s, I was debt free, but was not earning a super high income. I could go for coffee whenever I wanted, ate at restaurants once in a while, but generally didn't stress about money because I was living simply. Those were happy times. Later, I earned much more, but invested to start my business and had to carry a far heavier burden financially - the kind of burden that would wipe me out quickly if I stumbled. It ate away at me and was probably unhealthy. I think economic policy should aim to maximize the number of people who can live in the stress-free bracket. Not super wealthy and able to go to Hawaii every winter; just able to make ends meet and have a bit of reserve for a rainy day. Most western economies are not geared in this way at the moment, and I think that's a huge shame.
vackosar 8y ago
Aren't these systems usually just raising costs for employer, who then lowers paycheck of the employee as the end result?
- mikeash 8y ago
  Yes, but it costs less and is more evenly distributed.
tjr225 8y ago
My wife and I are about 30. We still have ~50k in student loan debt. We make enough that her entire paycheck goes towards our student loans and we should have it paid off in a year and a half or so. However, we want to have children and we don't want our debt to impact their lives. How sad is it that American workers can't afford to have children because of how expensive our education is? Imagine if one of us had medical debt... College education and healthcare /should/ be free for all in this country(USA). They are fundamental to the social mobility and freedom that our founding principles were created for.
- darkerside 8y ago
  Sorry if this is prying, but do you regret the decision to borrow and spend on higher education?
  - tjr225 8y ago
    No, not really. But I understand that I, for the most part, have to participate in a system that I believe is fundamentally broken. There's almost nothing I learned during my 4 year college education that prepared me for any of my (tech) jobs post-graduation. And, due to poor decisions that I made, essentially as a child, I dropped out of high school when I was 16. So, a GED and a college education seemed like the only way out of the hole I dug myself at the time. I guess now that I am 30 and know myself a lot better, what I do regret is not being more creative. I probably could've figured out a way into a job similar to the one I have now if I had been more creative and avoided getting a 4 year degree.
    - jandrese 8y ago
      I wouldn't be quite so quick to dismiss the ability of a college diploma to get you past the first level HR filters at so many companies, especially for tech positions. When there are a ton of candidates for a job it's really easy to circular file the ones that have just a GED and no secondary education.
      - 8y ago
dahdum 8y ago
UBI frightens me (in a dystopian underclass kinda way) but I can't agree more about universal healthcare. Living life knowing you can at any time be bankrupted and homeless from an injury or disease in your household is not the kind of "freedom" we should value.
- maerF0x0 8y ago
  As a relatively healthy someone who has experienced both universal and US healthcare (Kaiser) I can tell you that KP is far superior to any experience I've had in Canada. So whilst Canada has a far better "average" I would say that for proactively healthy people the US system appears to be superior. The main issue in the Canadian system is that even if you can pay cash for something you cannot have it done and must join the long universal wait list. This includes simple things like finding a GP, getting standard lab work... This was the first hit on google that agrees with me: https://www.fraserinstitute.org/studies/waiting-your-turn-wait-times-for-health-care-in-canada-2017 https://www.fraserinstitute.org/studies/waiting-your-turn-wa...
  - showerst 8y ago
    Kinda interesting that your experience with US healthcare is Kaiser, because being a totally integrated healthcare system, they act most like a good universal system might.
    - Kalium 8y ago
      KP is more or less what one could expect from an integrated, universal health care system that is still forced to be competitive and value customer satisfaction..
      - chillacy 8y ago
        Plus they have good incentives to do things like focus on preventative care because they lose money by having to treat vs clinics which will make money treating. On the downside sometimes they try to deny treatments a little to eagerly, when I broke my clavicle, Kaiser suggested I could go without surgery, while a private practitioner said I needed immediate surgery, pronto, right now. Kaiser ultimately had me wait over the weekend 3 days before the surgeon got in on Monday. But the service itself was good.

arethuza 8y ago

Thanks for being careful to say "free at the point of delivery" - that was always one of the core principles of the UK NHS and everyone knows its not "free" - we all pay for it in our taxes - which I'm personally quite happy about.

thfuran 8y ago
>we all pay for it in our taxes - which I'm personally quite happy about The problem is that there seem to be entirely too few people in the US willing to pay for some benefit that other people receive, even if it would help them too. There are just so many people hung up on how "unfair" it is to have to pay for someone else's food stamps or health insurance or whatever.
- dsfyu404ed 8y ago
  Maybe because when we do that we pay a dollar for every cent of benefit delivered. The answer to a corrupt and inefficient system is not to shovel in more money. If we were getting $.050 on the dollar you'd see a lot more people willing to kick in.
  - Daishiman 8y ago
    The solution is to actually care about accountability, not to send less money.
    - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
      Yes but the first is a prerequisite of the second. Reversing the order just makes the problem worse.
- snikeris 8y ago
  I don't have any problems with paying money for other people's benefit, but I do have a problem when I'm forced to do so. Would it be fair if I took money from you and gave it to someone else who needed it more? Why is it fair when the government does it?
  - snikeris 8y ago
    Curious that I'm downvoted for coming out as one of the "many people hung up on how "unfair" it is". If you disagree with me you could at least answer my questions or try to change my mind.

grasshopperpurp 8y ago

>As I’ve continued to grow older, I’ve now come to realize it wasn’t the travel, eating out, or the things I could buy that helped me to be less stressed, it was the lack of burden of worrying about how I would pay for X, Y, or Z. Excellent post, and I love this observation. Security is the main thing people need to have a chance at happiness.

nickjj 8y ago
And that security threshold is much different for everyone. For example I'm not happy unless I have at least 12 months of runway to survive in my current state without dipping into long term savings investments. It just puts my mind at ease to know I don't have to think about rent, food, basic entertainment, etc. for a year at a time. Depending on what you do this could let you experiment without having financial motives. This is coming from someone who is a freelance developer for context.
- sidlls 8y ago
  That isn't what is meant by security. Security means adequate housing (where "adequate" is clean with sufficient space for each person in the household to provide some privacy for hygiene, sleep, etc. and perhaps communal areas for cooking and laundry), adequate food (providing sufficient quantity and variety for thriving: neither excess nor deficiency, and not bare minimum), and adequate health care regardless of time frame. What you describe as your requirement for happiness is possibly well above or below what is meant here (depending on your lifestyle).
- heavenlyblue 8y ago
  It’s called paranoia, generally. There’s probably at least 20% of the population of whichever country you live in who can’t have any savings beyond a single week after their payday. Statements like yours downplay the actual needs of someone in need.
hinkley 8y ago
When I first knew my mortgage was going to be paid no matter what, it made it a lot easier for me to take certain job offers. I didn't have to take the safe bet all the time. I'm in a safe bet now due to a couple contracts not going great. It's stressful enough that I'm spending money I shouldn't be on stress relief. But my emergency fund is full again, and I can't wait to get back to doing interesting, new, and/or important things.

mrdoops 8y ago

UBI is probably a bit too far in one direction to be a palatable solution. However Healthcare not being a financial concern for an individual or family is a very compelling idea. But can a universal healthcare system resolve many of the emerging rent-seeking behavior costs peripheral to the actual hospital costs? Things like medical supplies that, in the U.S. are significantly more expensive than elsewhere. Would a universal healthcare system only further subsidize that kind of exploitative pricing?

paulddraper 8y ago
Healthcare is expensive largely because the decision-maker does not foot most of the bill. If you have a universal healthcare system that would require mandatory prices.
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > Healthcare is expensive largely because the decision-maker does not foot most of the bill. No, it's not, at least that's not the reason it's uniquely high cost in the US compared to the rest of the developed world, because that's not a differentiating factor.
  - paulddraper 8y ago
    Kindly help me understand my error. Is there anywhere where (1) prices aren't fixed (2) one party decides which healthcare services to receive (3) a different party pays the bills and (4) cost is significantly less than in the US?
zrail 8y ago
> can a universal healthcare system resolve many of the emerging rent-seeking behavior costs peripheral to the actual hospital costs? Yes. Universal healthcare systems almost all (with some notable exceptions) can and will negotiate with providers and suppliers to control costs. They are typically the largest buyer, so of course they have a lot of negotiating power. Notable exceptions include Medicare in the US being legally forbidden from negotiating drug prices.

mhneu 8y ago

This is a great comment. the lack of burden of worrying about how I would pay for X, Y, or Z I had the same experience of once worrying about that, and now not really having to. It's incredible. Imagine what it's like raising a family while having to worry every time you buy diapers or milk. And 57% of American adults have less than $1,000 and are in that category of worry. Wealth inequality is the central problem of our time.

ttul 8y ago

I can totally relate. When I was in my early 20s, I was debt free, but was not earning a super high income. I could go for coffee whenever I wanted, ate at restaurants once in a while, but generally didn't stress about money because I was living simply. Those were happy times. Later, I earned much more, but invested to start my business and had to carry a far heavier burden financially - the kind of burden that would wipe me out quickly if I stumbled. It ate away at me and was probably unhealthy. I think economic policy should aim to maximize the number of people who can live in the stress-free bracket. Not super wealthy and able to go to Hawaii every winter; just able to make ends meet and have a bit of reserve for a rainy day. Most western economies are not geared in this way at the moment, and I think that's a huge shame.

vackosar 8y ago

Aren't these systems usually just raising costs for employer, who then lowers paycheck of the employee as the end result?

mikeash 8y ago
Yes, but it costs less and is more evenly distributed.

tjr225 8y ago

My wife and I are about 30. We still have ~50k in student loan debt. We make enough that her entire paycheck goes towards our student loans and we should have it paid off in a year and a half or so. However, we want to have children and we don't want our debt to impact their lives. How sad is it that American workers can't afford to have children because of how expensive our education is? Imagine if one of us had medical debt... College education and healthcare /should/ be free for all in this country(USA). They are fundamental to the social mobility and freedom that our founding principles were created for.

darkerside 8y ago
Sorry if this is prying, but do you regret the decision to borrow and spend on higher education?
- tjr225 8y ago
  No, not really. But I understand that I, for the most part, have to participate in a system that I believe is fundamentally broken. There's almost nothing I learned during my 4 year college education that prepared me for any of my (tech) jobs post-graduation. And, due to poor decisions that I made, essentially as a child, I dropped out of high school when I was 16. So, a GED and a college education seemed like the only way out of the hole I dug myself at the time. I guess now that I am 30 and know myself a lot better, what I do regret is not being more creative. I probably could've figured out a way into a job similar to the one I have now if I had been more creative and avoided getting a 4 year degree.
  - jandrese 8y ago
    I wouldn't be quite so quick to dismiss the ability of a college diploma to get you past the first level HR filters at so many companies, especially for tech positions. When there are a ton of candidates for a job it's really easy to circular file the ones that have just a GED and no secondary education.
    - 8y ago

dahdum 8y ago

UBI frightens me (in a dystopian underclass kinda way) but I can't agree more about universal healthcare. Living life knowing you can at any time be bankrupted and homeless from an injury or disease in your household is not the kind of "freedom" we should value.

maerF0x0 8y ago
As a relatively healthy someone who has experienced both universal and US healthcare (Kaiser) I can tell you that KP is far superior to any experience I've had in Canada. So whilst Canada has a far better "average" I would say that for proactively healthy people the US system appears to be superior. The main issue in the Canadian system is that even if you can pay cash for something you cannot have it done and must join the long universal wait list. This includes simple things like finding a GP, getting standard lab work... This was the first hit on google that agrees with me: https://www.fraserinstitute.org/studies/waiting-your-turn-wait-times-for-health-care-in-canada-2017 https://www.fraserinstitute.org/studies/waiting-your-turn-wa...
- showerst 8y ago
  Kinda interesting that your experience with US healthcare is Kaiser, because being a totally integrated healthcare system, they act most like a good universal system might.
  - Kalium 8y ago
    KP is more or less what one could expect from an integrated, universal health care system that is still forced to be competitive and value customer satisfaction..
    - chillacy 8y ago
      Plus they have good incentives to do things like focus on preventative care because they lose money by having to treat vs clinics which will make money treating. On the downside sometimes they try to deny treatments a little to eagerly, when I broke my clavicle, Kaiser suggested I could go without surgery, while a private practitioner said I needed immediate surgery, pronto, right now. Kaiser ultimately had me wait over the weekend 3 days before the surgeon got in on Monday. But the service itself was good.