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My partner worked for various solar companies (But not Solar City) as a canvasser hoping to get some sales experience. As a result we got to see first hand how

by foxyv 8y ago

My partner worked for various solar companies (But not Solar City) as a canvasser hoping to get some sales experience. As a result we got to see first hand how corrupt and underhanded their sales departments could be. Canvassers were exploited mercilessly and commissions never appeared as new requirements were added to the payouts. Paychecks bounced periodically. Canvassers would be told to go door to door in areas where solicitation was illegal even though the company knew it was illegal and risked getting their employees arrested. Managers would hire friends and use fake leads to make them look good. I kind of hoped that Solar City would be an exception but I'm not surprised. It seems like the entire solar industry is focused more on extracting government subsidies than on creating long term revenue streams. I don't think management is very confident of the long term prospects of residential solar. Especially considering pushback from utility companies.

api 8y ago
Such things are common in sales in general. It's absolutely cutthroat. Salespeople, managers, everyone is in a Hobbesian all-against-all fight to the death for commissions. Crime and fraud are abundant. Personal attacks are not even that uncommon. Anyone who doesn't play this game tends to get muscled out. It's obviously worse in some organizations than others, but it's probably harder to create a non-toxic sales org than to create a toxic one. Some organizations encourage toxic sales organizations because unfortunately it works, at least in the short term. It can do damage later but that's long after commissions have been earned.
- christophilus 8y ago
  I work at Elastic, and can honestly say, this is the second company I’ve ever worked for whose sales team is respectable. They’re a bunch of highly technical consultants, and their goal is to solve customer problems even if the solution doesn’t earn Elastic a dime. It’s refreshing.
linuxftw 8y ago
> It seems like the entire solar industry is focused more on extracting government subsidies than on creating long term revenue streams. Some might argue this is the exact nature of government subsidies. People are always going to make choices in their economic self-interest. Either solar needs to be the most cost effective solution for their energy needs, or the government needs to artificially inflate the cost of other energy (or reduce any subsidies to other energy to make solar more competitive). Every time a hurricane knocks out a town's electric grid and federal funds are used to repair it, that's a subsidy. When government authority to exercise eminent domain acquires easements or land to erect power distribution, that's a subsidy. Not to mention utilities being absolved from responsibility for the pollution they create.
- Fricken 8y ago
  China threw massive subsidies at solar, and they readily admit there was a great deal of waste and graft, but now that the dust has settled China is the industry leader.
  - rufusroflpunch 8y ago
    But there's no telling what the opportunity cost was. Likely far more massive than whatever short-term benefits from being an industry leader.
    - KirinDave 8y ago
      If there is no telling, then it's kind of pointless to speculate on its inefficiency.
- krageon 8y ago
  I don't think you've sufficiently proven the argument which the rest of your statements hinge on: "People are always going to make choices in their economic self-interest". It's an attractive (if somewhat cynical) point, but it's no more reasonable than any other generalisation. Not very.
  - watwat1 8y ago
    It’s patently obvious. No sane individual will systematically go against his economic self interest.
  - notfromhere 8y ago
    If anything, voting patterns in the US prove this wrong.
    - zaroth 8y ago
      Tax reform means my organically growing startup gets to keep 33% more of our profit to reinvest back into the company, which has meaningfully impacted our annual budget and growth trajectory. VC funded startups get the advantage of growing ahead of profit, and booking tax losses which they can carry forward. Bootstrapping means growth driven by profit, which necessitates paying income taxes on the ever growing cash balance which flows from growing revenues & expenses (e.g. always having 3 months operating expenses in the bank)
eulerss__number 8y ago
thats why we need to abolish the government and let anarcho-capitalism flourish and take its place
gameswithgo 8y ago
> It seems like the entire solar industry is focused more on extracting government subsidies You made a long, correct rant about aggressive sales tactics, then shifted at the end to government subsidies. That is weird. I think more generally in businesses where you are selling a commodity, aggressive sketchy sales and marketing come to the fore, since you can't really differentiate any other way. And certainly, as well, you seek out the best subsidies available, as do the Koch Brothers or any other good capitalist trying to survive. Sales people are gross everywhere, and certainly it is something we should try to fix but its been like that for thousands of years.
- foxyv 8y ago
  Unfortunately, government subsidies were the focus of the entire sales process. When they signed a contract they would usually finance the cost of the installation with a third party then pocket the subsidy and use it for payroll and operating costs. A lot of the missed paychecks were because they didn't have the money until they received the subsidy checks. The entire business model was sketchy as heck. I don't know if it's the same across all the solar companies, but that seemed to be the case with the two he worked with.
samstave 8y ago
> It seems like the entire solar industry is focused more on extracting government subsidies than on creating long term revenue streams. Maybe you have heard of Solyndra, who took $500 million dollars from the DOE http://fortune.com/2015/08/27/remember-solyndra-mistake/ http://fortune.com/2015/08/27/remember-solyndra-mistake/ Google them for a ton of other articles. Of note: some people I had known had gone there, and after looking at the SEC filings during the collapse of Solyndra, saw that they were handing out massive bonuses to employees and C-suite staff just prior to literally locking their employees out. They had their IT lead shut down all accounts/remote access and email, then locked the front doors. Employees showed up to the office the next morning and the doors were locked, this is how they informed them that they were out of a job.
PeterMikhailov 8y ago
Where in the US do you get arrested for working as a door to door sale person ?
sebastianavina 8y ago
Here in Mexico we had something called "Reforma Energetica", basically a constitutional reform of how the electricity is billed in Mexico, one of the few and unknown rule of said bill is that now all the industry has to generate at least 5% of its energy from renewable resources, so almost every major company is installing solar panels... I am on the metal working industry I have a 150 kVa transformer and 20kVa of solar panels installed... There is no subsidies from the government, but if you dont comply you will be fined starting on December 01. I had to invest heavily on my electrical installation, and there is a boom on renewable energies on mexico because of this... Also, I had to change my capacitor bank to a newer one, an active one. So maybe its just the US that is lagging on renewable energies...

by foxyv 8y ago

api 8y ago

Such things are common in sales in general. It's absolutely cutthroat. Salespeople, managers, everyone is in a Hobbesian all-against-all fight to the death for commissions. Crime and fraud are abundant. Personal attacks are not even that uncommon. Anyone who doesn't play this game tends to get muscled out. It's obviously worse in some organizations than others, but it's probably harder to create a non-toxic sales org than to create a toxic one. Some organizations encourage toxic sales organizations because unfortunately it works, at least in the short term. It can do damage later but that's long after commissions have been earned.

christophilus 8y ago
I work at Elastic, and can honestly say, this is the second company I’ve ever worked for whose sales team is respectable. They’re a bunch of highly technical consultants, and their goal is to solve customer problems even if the solution doesn’t earn Elastic a dime. It’s refreshing.

linuxftw 8y ago

> It seems like the entire solar industry is focused more on extracting government subsidies than on creating long term revenue streams. Some might argue this is the exact nature of government subsidies. People are always going to make choices in their economic self-interest. Either solar needs to be the most cost effective solution for their energy needs, or the government needs to artificially inflate the cost of other energy (or reduce any subsidies to other energy to make solar more competitive). Every time a hurricane knocks out a town's electric grid and federal funds are used to repair it, that's a subsidy. When government authority to exercise eminent domain acquires easements or land to erect power distribution, that's a subsidy. Not to mention utilities being absolved from responsibility for the pollution they create.

Fricken 8y ago
China threw massive subsidies at solar, and they readily admit there was a great deal of waste and graft, but now that the dust has settled China is the industry leader.
- rufusroflpunch 8y ago
  But there's no telling what the opportunity cost was. Likely far more massive than whatever short-term benefits from being an industry leader.
  - KirinDave 8y ago
    If there is no telling, then it's kind of pointless to speculate on its inefficiency.
krageon 8y ago
I don't think you've sufficiently proven the argument which the rest of your statements hinge on: "People are always going to make choices in their economic self-interest". It's an attractive (if somewhat cynical) point, but it's no more reasonable than any other generalisation. Not very.
- watwat1 8y ago
  It’s patently obvious. No sane individual will systematically go against his economic self interest.
- notfromhere 8y ago
  If anything, voting patterns in the US prove this wrong.
  - zaroth 8y ago
    Tax reform means my organically growing startup gets to keep 33% more of our profit to reinvest back into the company, which has meaningfully impacted our annual budget and growth trajectory. VC funded startups get the advantage of growing ahead of profit, and booking tax losses which they can carry forward. Bootstrapping means growth driven by profit, which necessitates paying income taxes on the ever growing cash balance which flows from growing revenues & expenses (e.g. always having 3 months operating expenses in the bank)

eulerss__number 8y ago

thats why we need to abolish the government and let anarcho-capitalism flourish and take its place

gameswithgo 8y ago

> It seems like the entire solar industry is focused more on extracting government subsidies You made a long, correct rant about aggressive sales tactics, then shifted at the end to government subsidies. That is weird. I think more generally in businesses where you are selling a commodity, aggressive sketchy sales and marketing come to the fore, since you can't really differentiate any other way. And certainly, as well, you seek out the best subsidies available, as do the Koch Brothers or any other good capitalist trying to survive. Sales people are gross everywhere, and certainly it is something we should try to fix but its been like that for thousands of years.

foxyv 8y ago
Unfortunately, government subsidies were the focus of the entire sales process. When they signed a contract they would usually finance the cost of the installation with a third party then pocket the subsidy and use it for payroll and operating costs. A lot of the missed paychecks were because they didn't have the money until they received the subsidy checks. The entire business model was sketchy as heck. I don't know if it's the same across all the solar companies, but that seemed to be the case with the two he worked with.

samstave 8y ago

> It seems like the entire solar industry is focused more on extracting government subsidies than on creating long term revenue streams. Maybe you have heard of Solyndra, who took $500 million dollars from the DOE http://fortune.com/2015/08/27/remember-solyndra-mistake/ http://fortune.com/2015/08/27/remember-solyndra-mistake/ Google them for a ton of other articles. Of note: some people I had known had gone there, and after looking at the SEC filings during the collapse of Solyndra, saw that they were handing out massive bonuses to employees and C-suite staff just prior to literally locking their employees out. They had their IT lead shut down all accounts/remote access and email, then locked the front doors. Employees showed up to the office the next morning and the doors were locked, this is how they informed them that they were out of a job.

PeterMikhailov 8y ago

Where in the US do you get arrested for working as a door to door sale person ?

sebastianavina 8y ago

Here in Mexico we had something called "Reforma Energetica", basically a constitutional reform of how the electricity is billed in Mexico, one of the few and unknown rule of said bill is that now all the industry has to generate at least 5% of its energy from renewable resources, so almost every major company is installing solar panels... I am on the metal working industry I have a 150 kVa transformer and 20kVa of solar panels installed... There is no subsidies from the government, but if you dont comply you will be fined starting on December 01. I had to invest heavily on my electrical installation, and there is a boom on renewable energies on mexico because of this... Also, I had to change my capacitor bank to a newer one, an active one. So maybe its just the US that is lagging on renewable energies...