8 ms·

Krita in the Windows Store: an update

139 points by iamcreasy 8y ago

wernsey 8y ago
This is outrageous. I also read those rules as 10.8.5 would only apply if you have in-app purchases and so on. I agree with other posters that it is probably a low level employee that made a poor judgement call, but what always irks me about cases like this is that appealing the decision can feel like such a futile fight.
jarfil 8y ago
IIRC your "app" is not just the executable, but everything related to your application in the store. That includes all assets, metadata, listings, etc. Also the "transactions" includes selling the app in the store, so unless you make it available free of charge, you can't promote alternate download sites for the same content you're selling in the store. You can however link to the "app's website", and if you just happen to have a download link there, for a version somewhat different from the one in the store... they might have a much harder time finding something wrong with that.
- OnlyRepliesToBS 8y ago
  "might"
seren 8y ago
Interesting dilemna for FOSS : you can use a store to generate some revenue, but you have to comply with byzantine store owner regulations.
- zanny 8y ago
  Any store worth caring about is already too big for your one program to influence its success. That's the only reason a Foss advocate would want to avoid such platforms in the first place. The potential visibility and revenue from using these corporate mouthpieces is probably always worth it so long as you can assure you won't become dependent on them.
iamcreasy 8y ago
> Now Microsoft was certainly aware that Krita is open source software published in the GNU Public License, and Krita would be distributed outside the Windows Store. They actually helped us get Krita in the Windows Store to begin with... > In any case, since we’re absolutely powerless, we’ve had to change the Store listing… This is outrageous! MS reached out[1] to Krita team to get the app on their store, and now forcing the devs to delete link to the Krita website! [1] https://krita.org/en/item/krita-available-from-the-windows-store/ https://krita.org/en/item/krita-available-from-the-windows-s...
- nilsocket 8y ago
  Yeah, they could have mentioned the same and got some exception.
- executesorder66 8y ago
  I'm loving the "new" microsoft.
  - std_throwaway 8y ago
    I see many arguments incoming defending Microsoft and getting more or less visibility depending on the audience at the time. Something along the lines of: "Let's compare it to some competitor who also does it wrong. See they are not doing any better but they are not criticized as much. How can you complain about this company then? You can't. We must be glad for what they give us. See how much good they do and how little you have achieved compared to an international giant. If you really want to do better go make your own store. You can't? Obviously you can't. Then you can't criticize." But the bottom line is that all these companies are ruled by money first and foremost. Sure, there are differences in detail and the approach they take but in the end the logic of money trumps all morals. For the "new" Microsoft this means that they have changed their approach because of money. Whatever good they do for us is because they think it will make them money in the long run. I think of it as a long running PR action and a medium change of company culture. If it suits them, they will change it back over night. WE must keep them under pressure to do the right thing by not letting us be held hostage by monopolies and always having a way out. So support your open source software because in the long run it will dominate in most places.
titanix2 8y ago
> In any case, since we’re absolutely powerless, we’ve had to change the Store listing… No, you could also pull your software out of the store. The numbers show it doesn’t really matter and Microsoft need more apps than you need their store. Beggars can't be choosers.
- antoinealb 8y ago
  > By far the majority of users get Krita from this website: about 30,000 downloads a week. Store downloads are only about 125 a week. Still, the income generated makes it possible for the Krita maintainer to work on Krita full-time, which would not have been possible otherwise. So while the download count itself does not matter, it is clear that the project is really helped by its presence on the store.
- jjcm 8y ago
  "Store downloads are only about 125 a week" If that's the case, then with the 15% MS cut they're pulling in ~$4500 from the MS store per month - far more than their donations.
  - zaarn 8y ago
    That probably counts the same account installing on multiple devices or reinstalling it. So in reality probably bit less.
- m_t 8y ago
  That's not what they say: > Still, the income generated makes it possible for the Krita maintainer to work on Krita full-time, which would not have been possible otherwise. They need the revenue generated by the small sales on the store.
- vetinari 8y ago
  Yes, they could, and should, if they can afford that. However, 125 dl/week * 9,79 usd/dl * 4 weeks in month * 0,85 of what they get to keep from the price = 4160,75 usd/month. That might be a pretty big chunk of their income. As you said, beggars can't be choosers.
classics2 8y ago
Dumb employee running amok here, but who cares he probably shows up on time for his shift. Reminds me of people being banned for life from PayPal because their product names contained the word “emulator”, or for signing up before they were 18.. 20 years ago.
- iamcreasy 8y ago
  I sincerely hope that's the case.
w1nt3rmu4e 8y ago
And Apple is no better in this regard. Both companies obviously want to prevent sales outside of their walled gardens -- soft deprecating independent software with warnings and 'on by default' blocks. Of course they do, why not take 30% of everyone's work and keep control? Maybe I misread Krita's situation but I'm not sure why they don't just pull out of the store and sell independently. Plenty of payment processors would be happy to take them on. Pricing is always difficult, but for a product that well known there's almost certainly a tiered system they could set up that generates enough income to keep the lights on (or better).
- iamcreasy 8y ago
  Several misconceptions. > And Apple is no better in this regard. Microsoft approached[1] them to get Krita(and also Inkscape) on the store. Microsoft knew the who and what these software stand for. Comparing it with Apple just doesn't make sense. > Maybe I misread Krita's situation but I'm not sure why they don't just pull out of the store and sell independently. Plenty of payment processors would be happy to take them on....Pricing is always difficult, but for a product that well known there's almost certainly a tiered system they could set up that generates enough income to keep the lights on (or better). It's a FOSS product. On the blog, the devs said that Krita is on the MS store because it brings in extra revenue which helps them to continue working on it full-time. They already have payment system setup on their website to take donations. But at its core Krita will always be a FOSS. [1] https://krita.org/en/item/krita-available-from-the-windows-store/ https://krita.org/en/item/krita-available-from-the-windows-s...
skocznymroczny 8y ago
Does anyone even use the Windows Store on their desktops? I've never installed a single application from there. I like my next-next-next-next wizards.
- BuckRogers 8y ago
  I go to it first, for the auto updates without additional software. It also updates apps seamlessly, unless you check the logs you won't even know it happened. I use it for Spotify, Netflix and a few other things. It needs improvement but I like it.
  - crankylinuxuser 8y ago
    The only time I use Windows is on our AWS instance. On there, we run WSUS and do automatic updates to a subset, and upon good update, approve the rest of the machines. I'd never trust MS's own idea for "updates".
- pjmlp 8y ago
  I do. I like to take advantage of all sandbox mechanism that I can enable of my systems. All switches up and white list on as needed basis.
- megaman22 8y ago
  No. I run LTSB, so there's no store, although I do sideload some free apps that discontinued their earlier, better desktop apps.
  - russdpale 8y ago
    I do the same thing, no store, telemetry, cordana.. Just windows the way it should be. Besides, windows store is bullshit and its going to end up as the same crappy experience as Google and apples app "stores". LTSB for life.
- AdmiralAsshat 8y ago
  I have Kodi installed from the Windows Store on my HTPC because I like the automatic updates. That's about it.
nihil75 8y ago
I see more and more mentions of abusive behaviour by corporations. Google blocking AdWords / Compute accounts, Facebook rejecting ads, and now this. It seems innovators must navigate around automated systems and/or non-technical employees whenever their product is slightly outside the norm - Usually unsuccessfully. So what's the alternative to entrusting our fates to faceless corps? Distributed apps perhaps?
- oblio 8y ago
  Normally? Web apps. But people are missing the forest for the trees: yes, the tech is crappy, because it's committee driven tech, but we're using it not for technical reasons, instead we're using it for political reasons. And it's worth doing and stopping promoting the proprietary variants (native apps, basically).
  - protomyth 8y ago
    The same companies who run the stores own the browsers that web apps run on.
  - yoz-y 8y ago
    Is it worth wasting energy on apps that are technically worse just for political reasons? For some, maybe. Still, on PCs you can always distribute the native applications outside of the stores.
    - EamonnMR 8y ago
      That may not be the case for whatever replaces the PC though.
cptskippy 8y ago
That's dumb, and I really like having apps like in the Store so that I'm always running the latest version.
- russdpale 8y ago
  Why though? Dont you want that control? What id your favorite app turns into spyware?
  - cptskippy 8y ago
    > Why though? There are certain pieces of software like Putty, 7-Zip, Arduino Studio, Inkscape, Plex, and Notepad++ where I'd like to always have the latest version. A few of those are in the store and keep themselves up to date. > Dont you want that control? Not really. There's quite a few pieces of software I want to run the latest versions of for security reasons (e.g. 7-Zip and Putty), some where finding the latest Windows installer is tedious (e.g. Gimp) others updated so infrequently that I forget to check (e.g. Inkscape), and others that are updated so frequently that it feels like I'm always running installers (e.g. Notepad++). Plus I use no less than 4 different computers with that software and it is a paint to make sure they're all updated. I'd rather just let them get managed in the background. > What id your favorite app turns into spyware? I don't know what you're asking.
    - russdpale 8y ago
      > I don't know what you're asking. I can understand your reasoning with all of those computers. My question is specifically referring to something like uTorrent, that was so great for so long then jumped the shark. It actually became much less secure, and there are many examples of this happening all over the web.
      - cptskippy 8y ago
        That's a valid point and I do not recall doing the same with uTorrent. However I eventually grew to not trust the older version I was running after a number of security notices about the App. I eventually just gave up on it entirely because I couldn't trust the old one and didn't want the new one. I'm not advocating that Apps be available exclusively in the store, just that I enjoy the convenience of the store for maintaining updates and would like them to be there. To your point I would also like to be able to install them outside of the store. I think the reality is that doing autoupdates the way Firefox and Chrome handle them is hard. Most small projects can't be bothered to even implement it. That's where the store shines because it can implement and manage the autoupdate functionality independently.
garganzol 8y ago
I told you so. Never ever put yourselves into totalitarian traps of Big Brother Stores. It will kill you eventually.
AdmiralAsshat 8y ago
It's a pity that as soon as an app tries to monetize (even optionally), it's suddenly at the mercy of the megacorps. Now you need a storefront, a payment processor, a refund infrastructure, etc. Better to just let the tech giants who already have the infrastructure handle the billing, in exchange for taking a monumental cut of your revenue and imposing binding, arbitrary rules at a moment's notice. This incident would be a poster child for the widespread need for something like the AppCenter being developed by the ElementaryOS team, where the apps can have a "suggested" price tag but be free to download: https://medium.com/elementaryos/appcenter-the-future-of-the-universe-1d34f04d1c85 https://medium.com/elementaryos/appcenter-the-future-of-the-... Regrettably it's Linux only at the moment. It would be interesting to see what kind of landscape of FOSS apps we might get if it got ported to Windows.
- ttoinou 8y ago
  it's suddenly at the mercy of the megacorps You don't need Windows Store to sell Windows software Now you need a storefront That's how you make people come to your product in an easy way a payment processor How are you supposed to do otherwise if you want to exchange units of bank accounts ? a refund infrastructure Yeah some people want their money back sometimes, this is not donations
corysama 8y ago
Unpopular opinion: Everyone is talking about abusive corporations, but it’s clear to me this rule exists to prevent abusive customers. Without it the store would be full of listings to the effect of “See how awesome my app is! But, don’t be stupid enough to buy it here! Go to my website and use coupon code ‘LOLTHXMS’ to get it there for 5% off!” effectively turning the store into a cost-free advertising platform. You might think Krita is special and deserves an exception. But, you know what happens when you make a very visible exception to one free customer among ten thousand free customers...
- EamonnMR 8y ago
  Using the rules of your app store to drive other distribution methods out still seems abusive.
  - amf12 8y ago
    No, the terms do not say that you can't sell or provide your app for free anywhere else. They say that you can't link to other distribution methods on the Microsoft app listing page. It would be similar to compare it to a product being sold on Amazon that says go to our website and get it for 10% discount. I'm sure Amazon won't allow that.
- iamcreasy 8y ago
  >effectively turning the store into a cost-free advertising platform. Sigh. It happened the other way around. Microsoft wanted Krita and Inkscape on the Windows Store. They approached the developers to make it happen. You can read more about it here: https://krita.org/en/item/krita-available-from-the-windows-store/ https://krita.org/en/item/krita-available-from-the-windows-s...
h4b4n3r0 8y ago
To be fair to MS I’m pretty sure a physical store also would not allow you to circumvent their main profit making mechanism: markup. Ie if something is selling at WalMart they probably won’t like if the package says “go to our website and cut out the middleman”, seeing that their business model is, well, being a middleman.
- iamcreasy 8y ago
  I wish I could reply you in details, but the concern you have raised is not correct, and it has been discussed already in the thread. I suggest you read the thread of its entirety.
kup0 8y ago
To me the policy is worded so that clearly 10.8.5 should not apply in this situation. The fact that they can just choose to apply policy that is opposite their published policy is ridiculous.
ndh2 8y ago
Why not go with Shopify or any other platform if you happen to be unhappy with this one?

139 points by iamcreasy 8y ago

This is outrageous. I also read those rules as 10.8.5 would only apply if you have in-app purchases and so on. I agree with other posters that it is probably a low level employee that made a poor judgement call, but what always irks me about cases like this is that appealing the decision can feel like such a futile fight.

jarfil 8y ago

IIRC your "app" is not just the executable, but everything related to your application in the store. That includes all assets, metadata, listings, etc. Also the "transactions" includes selling the app in the store, so unless you make it available free of charge, you can't promote alternate download sites for the same content you're selling in the store. You can however link to the "app's website", and if you just happen to have a download link there, for a version somewhat different from the one in the store... they might have a much harder time finding something wrong with that.

OnlyRepliesToBS 8y ago
"might"

seren 8y ago

Interesting dilemna for FOSS : you can use a store to generate some revenue, but you have to comply with byzantine store owner regulations.

zanny 8y ago
Any store worth caring about is already too big for your one program to influence its success. That's the only reason a Foss advocate would want to avoid such platforms in the first place. The potential visibility and revenue from using these corporate mouthpieces is probably always worth it so long as you can assure you won't become dependent on them.

iamcreasy 8y ago

> Now Microsoft was certainly aware that Krita is open source software published in the GNU Public License, and Krita would be distributed outside the Windows Store. They actually helped us get Krita in the Windows Store to begin with... > In any case, since we’re absolutely powerless, we’ve had to change the Store listing… This is outrageous! MS reached out[1] to Krita team to get the app on their store, and now forcing the devs to delete link to the Krita website! [1] https://krita.org/en/item/krita-available-from-the-windows-store/ https://krita.org/en/item/krita-available-from-the-windows-s...

nilsocket 8y ago
Yeah, they could have mentioned the same and got some exception.
executesorder66 8y ago
I'm loving the "new" microsoft.
- std_throwaway 8y ago
  I see many arguments incoming defending Microsoft and getting more or less visibility depending on the audience at the time. Something along the lines of: "Let's compare it to some competitor who also does it wrong. See they are not doing any better but they are not criticized as much. How can you complain about this company then? You can't. We must be glad for what they give us. See how much good they do and how little you have achieved compared to an international giant. If you really want to do better go make your own store. You can't? Obviously you can't. Then you can't criticize." But the bottom line is that all these companies are ruled by money first and foremost. Sure, there are differences in detail and the approach they take but in the end the logic of money trumps all morals. For the "new" Microsoft this means that they have changed their approach because of money. Whatever good they do for us is because they think it will make them money in the long run. I think of it as a long running PR action and a medium change of company culture. If it suits them, they will change it back over night. WE must keep them under pressure to do the right thing by not letting us be held hostage by monopolies and always having a way out. So support your open source software because in the long run it will dominate in most places.

titanix2 8y ago

> In any case, since we’re absolutely powerless, we’ve had to change the Store listing… No, you could also pull your software out of the store. The numbers show it doesn’t really matter and Microsoft need more apps than you need their store. Beggars can't be choosers.

antoinealb 8y ago
> By far the majority of users get Krita from this website: about 30,000 downloads a week. Store downloads are only about 125 a week. Still, the income generated makes it possible for the Krita maintainer to work on Krita full-time, which would not have been possible otherwise. So while the download count itself does not matter, it is clear that the project is really helped by its presence on the store.
jjcm 8y ago
"Store downloads are only about 125 a week" If that's the case, then with the 15% MS cut they're pulling in ~$4500 from the MS store per month - far more than their donations.
- zaarn 8y ago
  That probably counts the same account installing on multiple devices or reinstalling it. So in reality probably bit less.
m_t 8y ago
That's not what they say: > Still, the income generated makes it possible for the Krita maintainer to work on Krita full-time, which would not have been possible otherwise. They need the revenue generated by the small sales on the store.
vetinari 8y ago
Yes, they could, and should, if they can afford that. However, 125 dl/week * 9,79 usd/dl * 4 weeks in month * 0,85 of what they get to keep from the price = 4160,75 usd/month. That might be a pretty big chunk of their income. As you said, beggars can't be choosers.

classics2 8y ago

Dumb employee running amok here, but who cares he probably shows up on time for his shift. Reminds me of people being banned for life from PayPal because their product names contained the word “emulator”, or for signing up before they were 18.. 20 years ago.

iamcreasy 8y ago
I sincerely hope that's the case.

w1nt3rmu4e 8y ago

And Apple is no better in this regard. Both companies obviously want to prevent sales outside of their walled gardens -- soft deprecating independent software with warnings and 'on by default' blocks. Of course they do, why not take 30% of everyone's work and keep control? Maybe I misread Krita's situation but I'm not sure why they don't just pull out of the store and sell independently. Plenty of payment processors would be happy to take them on. Pricing is always difficult, but for a product that well known there's almost certainly a tiered system they could set up that generates enough income to keep the lights on (or better).

iamcreasy 8y ago
Several misconceptions. > And Apple is no better in this regard. Microsoft approached[1] them to get Krita(and also Inkscape) on the store. Microsoft knew the who and what these software stand for. Comparing it with Apple just doesn't make sense. > Maybe I misread Krita's situation but I'm not sure why they don't just pull out of the store and sell independently. Plenty of payment processors would be happy to take them on....Pricing is always difficult, but for a product that well known there's almost certainly a tiered system they could set up that generates enough income to keep the lights on (or better). It's a FOSS product. On the blog, the devs said that Krita is on the MS store because it brings in extra revenue which helps them to continue working on it full-time. They already have payment system setup on their website to take donations. But at its core Krita will always be a FOSS. [1] https://krita.org/en/item/krita-available-from-the-windows-store/ https://krita.org/en/item/krita-available-from-the-windows-s...

skocznymroczny 8y ago

Does anyone even use the Windows Store on their desktops? I've never installed a single application from there. I like my next-next-next-next wizards.

BuckRogers 8y ago
I go to it first, for the auto updates without additional software. It also updates apps seamlessly, unless you check the logs you won't even know it happened. I use it for Spotify, Netflix and a few other things. It needs improvement but I like it.
- crankylinuxuser 8y ago
  The only time I use Windows is on our AWS instance. On there, we run WSUS and do automatic updates to a subset, and upon good update, approve the rest of the machines. I'd never trust MS's own idea for "updates".
pjmlp 8y ago
I do. I like to take advantage of all sandbox mechanism that I can enable of my systems. All switches up and white list on as needed basis.
megaman22 8y ago
No. I run LTSB, so there's no store, although I do sideload some free apps that discontinued their earlier, better desktop apps.
- russdpale 8y ago
  I do the same thing, no store, telemetry, cordana.. Just windows the way it should be. Besides, windows store is bullshit and its going to end up as the same crappy experience as Google and apples app "stores". LTSB for life.
AdmiralAsshat 8y ago
I have Kodi installed from the Windows Store on my HTPC because I like the automatic updates. That's about it.

nihil75 8y ago

I see more and more mentions of abusive behaviour by corporations. Google blocking AdWords / Compute accounts, Facebook rejecting ads, and now this. It seems innovators must navigate around automated systems and/or non-technical employees whenever their product is slightly outside the norm - Usually unsuccessfully. So what's the alternative to entrusting our fates to faceless corps? Distributed apps perhaps?

oblio 8y ago
Normally? Web apps. But people are missing the forest for the trees: yes, the tech is crappy, because it's committee driven tech, but we're using it not for technical reasons, instead we're using it for political reasons. And it's worth doing and stopping promoting the proprietary variants (native apps, basically).
- protomyth 8y ago
  The same companies who run the stores own the browsers that web apps run on.
- yoz-y 8y ago
  Is it worth wasting energy on apps that are technically worse just for political reasons? For some, maybe. Still, on PCs you can always distribute the native applications outside of the stores.
  - EamonnMR 8y ago
    That may not be the case for whatever replaces the PC though.

cptskippy 8y ago

That's dumb, and I really like having apps like in the Store so that I'm always running the latest version.

russdpale 8y ago
Why though? Dont you want that control? What id your favorite app turns into spyware?
- cptskippy 8y ago
  > Why though? There are certain pieces of software like Putty, 7-Zip, Arduino Studio, Inkscape, Plex, and Notepad++ where I'd like to always have the latest version. A few of those are in the store and keep themselves up to date. > Dont you want that control? Not really. There's quite a few pieces of software I want to run the latest versions of for security reasons (e.g. 7-Zip and Putty), some where finding the latest Windows installer is tedious (e.g. Gimp) others updated so infrequently that I forget to check (e.g. Inkscape), and others that are updated so frequently that it feels like I'm always running installers (e.g. Notepad++). Plus I use no less than 4 different computers with that software and it is a paint to make sure they're all updated. I'd rather just let them get managed in the background. > What id your favorite app turns into spyware? I don't know what you're asking.
  - russdpale 8y ago
    > I don't know what you're asking. I can understand your reasoning with all of those computers. My question is specifically referring to something like uTorrent, that was so great for so long then jumped the shark. It actually became much less secure, and there are many examples of this happening all over the web.
    - cptskippy 8y ago
      That's a valid point and I do not recall doing the same with uTorrent. However I eventually grew to not trust the older version I was running after a number of security notices about the App. I eventually just gave up on it entirely because I couldn't trust the old one and didn't want the new one. I'm not advocating that Apps be available exclusively in the store, just that I enjoy the convenience of the store for maintaining updates and would like them to be there. To your point I would also like to be able to install them outside of the store. I think the reality is that doing autoupdates the way Firefox and Chrome handle them is hard. Most small projects can't be bothered to even implement it. That's where the store shines because it can implement and manage the autoupdate functionality independently.

garganzol 8y ago

I told you so. Never ever put yourselves into totalitarian traps of Big Brother Stores. It will kill you eventually.

AdmiralAsshat 8y ago

It's a pity that as soon as an app tries to monetize (even optionally), it's suddenly at the mercy of the megacorps. Now you need a storefront, a payment processor, a refund infrastructure, etc. Better to just let the tech giants who already have the infrastructure handle the billing, in exchange for taking a monumental cut of your revenue and imposing binding, arbitrary rules at a moment's notice. This incident would be a poster child for the widespread need for something like the AppCenter being developed by the ElementaryOS team, where the apps can have a "suggested" price tag but be free to download: https://medium.com/elementaryos/appcenter-the-future-of-the-universe-1d34f04d1c85 https://medium.com/elementaryos/appcenter-the-future-of-the-... Regrettably it's Linux only at the moment. It would be interesting to see what kind of landscape of FOSS apps we might get if it got ported to Windows.

ttoinou 8y ago
it's suddenly at the mercy of the megacorps You don't need Windows Store to sell Windows software Now you need a storefront That's how you make people come to your product in an easy way a payment processor How are you supposed to do otherwise if you want to exchange units of bank accounts ? a refund infrastructure Yeah some people want their money back sometimes, this is not donations

corysama 8y ago

Unpopular opinion: Everyone is talking about abusive corporations, but it’s clear to me this rule exists to prevent abusive customers. Without it the store would be full of listings to the effect of “See how awesome my app is! But, don’t be stupid enough to buy it here! Go to my website and use coupon code ‘LOLTHXMS’ to get it there for 5% off!” effectively turning the store into a cost-free advertising platform. You might think Krita is special and deserves an exception. But, you know what happens when you make a very visible exception to one free customer among ten thousand free customers...

EamonnMR 8y ago
Using the rules of your app store to drive other distribution methods out still seems abusive.
- amf12 8y ago
  No, the terms do not say that you can't sell or provide your app for free anywhere else. They say that you can't link to other distribution methods on the Microsoft app listing page. It would be similar to compare it to a product being sold on Amazon that says go to our website and get it for 10% discount. I'm sure Amazon won't allow that.
iamcreasy 8y ago
>effectively turning the store into a cost-free advertising platform. Sigh. It happened the other way around. Microsoft wanted Krita and Inkscape on the Windows Store. They approached the developers to make it happen. You can read more about it here: https://krita.org/en/item/krita-available-from-the-windows-store/ https://krita.org/en/item/krita-available-from-the-windows-s...

h4b4n3r0 8y ago

To be fair to MS I’m pretty sure a physical store also would not allow you to circumvent their main profit making mechanism: markup. Ie if something is selling at WalMart they probably won’t like if the package says “go to our website and cut out the middleman”, seeing that their business model is, well, being a middleman.

iamcreasy 8y ago
I wish I could reply you in details, but the concern you have raised is not correct, and it has been discussed already in the thread. I suggest you read the thread of its entirety.

kup0 8y ago

To me the policy is worded so that clearly 10.8.5 should not apply in this situation. The fact that they can just choose to apply policy that is opposite their published policy is ridiculous.

ndh2 8y ago

Why not go with Shopify or any other platform if you happen to be unhappy with this one?