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Toronto adds more tech jobs than Silicon Valley in past 5 years
- woahitsraj 8y agoYeah the Toronto tech job market is really hot right now. Moved there from Silicon Valley for almost two years but I wouldn't recommend it. Pay is much lower and cost of living is still relatively high. If you are looking to stay in North America, Seattle, Austin, or LA, seem like much better bets to me
- kolbe 8y agoHow? Why? I mean, it's easy to see the return on investment that SV has yielded from employing more people, and to see the competitive advantage SV has to maintain its growth. But Toronto is everything bad about SV, and nothing good. Its housing is just as unaffordable, yet it doesn't have a large network of talent from decades of innovative companies to draw from.
- rublev 8y ago>Its housing is just as unaffordable What? It's not even remotely close.
- rpeden 8y agoNot in absolute terms, but it's closer when you compare housing cost vs compensation, I think. The cost of rental housing has jumped up quite a bit recently, too. When I was looking for a place to live in 2015, I saw quite a few condos for rent right downtown for $1700-1800 a month. Now I see units in those same buildings renting for $2300 a month and up. Still cheaper than SV, I suppose? And if you don't mind a bit of a commute, you can find more affordable accommodation.
- parthdesai 8y agoYup, all the new building (buildings built after 1992) weren't under rent-control. Since last year, they now are under rent-control which means landlord can only increase rent by 1.7% every year, which is why you saw that jump in rent. Not leaving my condo until i manage to buy my own place, which is going to be very difficult as well.
- mthoms 8y ago> Not in absolute terms Well no-one is saying that Toronto is better than SV "in absolute terms" either. Just that more tech jobs were added.
- sumitgt 8y agoIt's actually a very attractive option for people who are stuck in the EB-2 GC queue in the US. For instance, you could wait in the US for 15 years on a H1-B unable to open your own business, or you could move to Toronto on Express Entry and try and build a company.
- betaby 8y agoSalaries in Toronto are pretty low comparable to COL.
- rublev 8y agoSo what? They still pay crap. I took a 2x pay cut when I worked here again rather than SF. Cost of living constantly rising too.
- zcid 8y agoThis is a garbage article. At least link to the original press release from CBRE: https://www.cbre.us/about/media-center/tech-thirty-2016 https://www.cbre.us/about/media-center/tech-thirty-2016.
- Bartweiss 8y agoThat press release is 2016, and puts San Francisco at the top of the list. The HuffPo article makes its claim using 2012 - 2017 stats, so presumably it's a newer report. Here are the CBRE report summaries for 2017 and 2018: https://www.cbre.com/research-and-reports/Tech-30-2017 https://www.cbre.com/research-and-reports/Tech-30-2017 https://www.cbre.us/about/media-center/tech-talent-2018 https://www.cbre.us/about/media-center/tech-talent-2018 https://www.cbre.us/research-and-reports/Scoring-Tech-Talent-in-North-America-2018 https://www.cbre.us/research-and-reports/Scoring-Tech-Talent... I still appreciate the link, though, because HuffPo didn't source their numbers, which look very strange. CBRE's 2017 data says San Francisco has had the highest percentage growth in tech jobs for 6 years running, and it's ~20 points higher than Toronto in each timeframe listed. The 2018 report does list Toronto growing at 51.5%, and the San Francisco Bay Area growing at 31%. But we need to know what region is being assessed - the 2016 report separates San Francisco and Silicon Valley, so this is a crucial difference. San Francisco proper is 800,000 people, Silicon Valley is ~3,000,000, Toronto ~3,000,000 and the Bay Area is 8,000,000. The CBRE data does break out Silicon Valley separately, at least in pre-2018 reports. The headline here says "Silicon Valley", but the body gives numbers for the "San Francisco Bay Area". Working backwards from the publicly-available CBRE report stats, I get 90,000 new tech jobs in Toronto from 2013-2017. That's noticeably higher than HuffPo's 82,000 from 2012-2017, but plausible given that I'm using CBRE's heavily-rounded numbers. San Francisco apparently had 79,100 tech jobs at the start of 2017, up from 56,800 at the start of 2015. We can back-calculate to 38,600 tech workers in 2013. Calculations from Census Bureau estimates from that time period put the number somewhere very similar in 2013, suggesting that this is correct. CBRE tells us San Francisco also had the highest percentage growth surveyed in 2012, so we can project 2012 growth from the next years. Percentage growth has been slowing, so I used the 2013-2015 rate to get 7,300 new jobs in 2012. Those numbers are for San Francisco itself, population 800,000. If we nevertheless apply the 2017 "San Francisco Bay Area" percentage growth to this number, we get 2013-3017 growth of 65,600, for a 2012-2017 total change of 72,900. > Toronto... beat out the San Francisco Bay Area for the spot by about 4,270 jobs. 82,000-72,900 = 9,100 This is 2x HuffPo's number, but I'm really working the data to make these rounded percentages workout. Fortunately, all of the other differences we're worried about dwarf this. It's not Silicon Valley, that's distinct, and it can't be the whole Bay Area, because that would imply the non-SF Bay Area of 7,200,000 people gained a total of 4,000 tech jobs in five years. It looks like HuffPo used CBRE's San Francisco proper numbers, cited raw counts despite a ~4x population difference, and then reported it as the "San Francisco Bay Area" based on CBRE's 2018 language. That, or they failed to notice that CBRE (and other firms like PwC) have changed their region breakdown this year, and simply conflated Bay Area numbers from one year with San Francisco numbers from other years. It looks like somebody tried for a dramatic-but-misleading story with a useless comparison, confused their subject between headline and body, and ultimately made a numerical statement that's simply false. Failing to link their source was probably a good move given all that. (And I'll bet this article took half as long to write and publish as it took commenters to debunk. The Gish Gallop even works for professional news organizations.)
- fouc 8y agoI think the "senior" web developers with less than 5 years work history seem to be earning $90K/year, which seems low. Any thoughts?
- miguelrochefort 8y agoI don't know any Canadian developer with less than 5 years of experience earning $90k/year. Most developers I know with more than 5 years of experience earn less than $90k/year.
- parthdesai 8y agoReally? Going to through job postings and you can hit $90k/year with 3 years of experience. Of course you start at $90-$100k as a new grad in Amazon and Google.
- c2h5oh 8y agoThere are very few senior developer jobs over 150k Cad, even with a lot of experience. I expect that to change as the hiring crunch continues but right now the ceiling has been slow to budge - much slower than the lower end of the spectrum, which is pressured more with average rent in Toronto going up over 15% year over year
- randomdata 8y agoThe Hired.com annual salary report shows that while Toronto tech incomes have gone up overall in the past year, developer salaries have actually declined. Canada has an exceptionally strong culture of pushing for workplace training, to the point that the OECD calls Canada the most educated nation, so when a career stands out as having good job prospects (which development has been billed that way for several years now) people flood into it, putting downward pressure on incomes unlike you find stateside where the social dynamics don't push people into those jobs the same way. If you're doing something really unique perhaps there is still room for upward growth (although you're probably already well past $150k in that case), but generally it is unlikely that developer incomes will climb further at all.
- dkonieczek 8y agoI'm a Toronto native and have been working as a dev for the past two years. COL is extremely high compared to salaries. This is likely the biggest problem for anyone looking to move here. For example, a small 1 bedroom condo downtown will run you at least CA$2k a month. For a larger 1 bedroom or 1+den your easily looking at $2-3k in today's demanding market. Public transit is usually a hit or miss during rush hour. I'd suggest looking into Kitchener/Waterloo, Markham or Ottawa area if you're considering moving here. COL in these areas compared to Toronto is drastic and many of the bigN companies (Shopify, Google, IBM, etc..) are located here.
- Method-X 8y agoI can definitely second Kitchener/Waterloo. Absolutely fantastic place to live!
- elevenoh 8y agoShhhh.. I'm trying to buy a house in Waterloo. Inventory is already staggeringly low.
- DKnoll 8y agoYou don't need to live downtown. I commute via car from Port Credit where I have an $850/mo bachelor apartment and work at Queen and Bathurst.
- r0fl 8y agoThe rates of $2000+ quoted above are for newly built condos with lots of amenities and are walking distance to lots of places filled with 20-30 year olds You are comparing apples to oranges Even in port credit you cannot rent a brand new bachelor in a new building that’s not in a basement, which has new stainless steel appliances, dishwasher, air conditioning and at least a gym or pool. I’m not knocking the idea of paying low rent to save money to get ahead in life, I think that’s something all young people should do. But comparing port credit bachelor unit life to a new build 1 bedroom in the core is just a bad comparison
- AzzieElbab 8y agoThe article is like it's headline copied and pasted twice. Does "tech jobs" mean jobs at "tech" companies or does it also include tech jobs in finance, telco and government? Most of those are also in Toronto.
- lgleason 8y agoCBRE is an unreliable source for tech talent market news.
- neivin 8y agoAs a Toronto native, who now lives in Silicon Valley (part of the brain drain from Waterloo), there is a reason why everyone leaves Toronto/Canada - the salaries are simply laughable when compared to the bay area. The only reason you would stay in Toronto for a job in tech is if you wanted to stay close to family, or your girlfriend/boyfriend/spouse. Or, you just hate money and being at the center of the tech industry...
- jherdman 8y agoOr, you know, political reasons. This seems to be a motivator for myself and my peers in the Toronto scene.
- rescripting 8y agoNot sure why you're being downvoted; it's not exactly the best time to be an immigrant in America. Maybe if you're not a visible minority and never leave the valley you could stick your thumbs in your ears and just cash the cheques.
- wetpaws 8y agoCanada is not exactly perfect either.
- jonny_eh 8y agoIt's all relative.
- ojbyrne 8y agoIf you're a Canadian its a choice between not being an immigrant and being an immigrant.
- slededit 8y agoI moved back after 10 years. While being an immigrant sucks in ways a lot of people don't imagine - its worth it for the initial education and career boost. It will also teach you to "think like an american" which is important when the majority of capital is controlled by US persons.
- m23khan 8y agoAnother reason is abundance of IT talent in and around Toronto with top-class educational institutions (both Universities and Community Colleges) churning out armies of great IT workers. That and combined with relatively lower salaries...
- AnthonyWnC 8y agoAlso Toronto native; was making just under 100k ~ 3 years ago in SysEng/devops role. Now working in NYC in similar role at ~ 185k (Cdn). Even with CoL (housing) of NYC, my savings is much higher. Personally I much prefer to live in Toronto but the salary is just too low.
- robbrit 8y agoAgreed. I moved from Montreal to SF a few years back and although my rent tripled, so did my income. The net result is much more savings than I would have gotten if I had stayed in Canada. If you're a saver/investor then it makes much more sense to move to the US for a little while, save up a decent sized nest egg, then move back.
- Apocryphon 8y agoOne wonders how difficult is it to work remotely for a US firm while in Canada.
- robbrit 8y agoBased on my anecdotal experience, it would depend entirely on you: your experience, your reputation, and your negotiating ability. If you're a top senior engineer or a celebrity like Tim Bray (https://www.tbray.org/ongoing/ https://www.tbray.org/ongoing/) then you can probably swing something with the BigCos, but for a regular junior/intermediate developer you'll have a tougher time getting a deal like that.
- apercu 8y agoI did it briefly. It was fine, but made easier because I have citizenship in one country and the right to work in the other.
- nasalgoat 8y agoI decided to look for a remote job recently. I went down a list of various job sites specializing in them, and a few days later I had a remote job that pays six figures. I would say it's not difficult at all - there were hundreds of job listings.
- Element_ 8y agoThere are over 350,000 Canadians living and working in Silicon Valley. Canada's total population is only ~35 million. There is good reason for this mass exodus. The rates for tech workers in Toronto are terrible. An enterprising worker can easily triple their income by working for American companies. The fact that this report is sourced from a real estate firm should give you a hint to the rent-seeking nature of the Canadian economy.
- dyarosla 8y agoCould you link your source for the 350k figure? Thank you!
- RandallBrown 8y agoToronto is 75k CAD (57k USD) (https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/toronto-software-engineer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,7_IM976_KO8,25.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/toronto-software-engineer...) San Francisco is 124k USD (https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/san-francisco-software-engineer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,13_IM759_KO14,31.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/san-francisco-software-en...) So, it's not triple, but it's more than double. Also, if you're going from a junior/midlevel role in CA to a senior position in the US, you could pretty easily triple your salary.
- dyarosla 8y agoI think you replied to the wrong parent
- RandallBrown 8y agoNo, it was the right one, I just misread the original post and thought 350k was referring to tripling their salary.
- Element_ 8y agohttps://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/rob-magazine/lessons-from-canadas-silicon-valley-diaspora/article2346666/singlepage/#articlecontent https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/rob-magaz...
- lsiunsuex 8y agoYou all can send some of your tech jobs over here to Buffalo, NY. We're only about 1-2 hour drive from Toronto give or take traffic on the QEW and COL is pretty cheap IMO. When I had a house, it was 1700 sq ft for about $1100 / month mortgage. I'm in an apartment now - 1300 sq ft 3 bedroom / 2 full bath for about $1625 / month. Onsite pool, gym, dog park, attached garage - lots of nice stuff. And plenty of skilled workers surrounded by 4 or 5 private and public colleges. And some of the best pizzerias lol...
- lacker 8y agoSomething doesn't seem right about these stats. From the article: The report by CBRE Group says Toronto added 82,100 technology-related jobs between 2012 and 2017 to beat out the San Francisco Bay Area for the spot by about 4,270 jobs. 82,000 jobs over 5 years, ok. Let's look at some other accounts of Bay Area tech jobs, for example https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2017/02/10/tech-job-growth-slows-in-bay-area/ https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2017/02/10/tech-job-growth-slow... : Tech’s annual job growth throttled back to 3.5 percent, or 26,700 new jobs, in 2016. That’s much slower than the 6 percent annual gain of 42,300 jobs in 2015, or the 6.4 percent gain in 2014. That describes around 110,000 jobs growth in just three years. These numbers just don't match. The first one is based on a survey by a real estate group, the second one is based on official statistics from the California government. What's the reality here? I can't say, but I do know that you can't trust hypey news articles that don't bother to dig around for the most accurate data sources. My guess is that this survey operated by a real estate group is just bad data.
- Bartweiss 8y agoThese stats are bad, but it's much worse than just sloppy data gathering in the survey. See the discussion here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17610221 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17610221 You can get numbers much like HuffPo's if you compare urban San Francisco (population 800,000) to Toronto (population 3,000,000). Which is grossly misleading to begin with, but they then listed it as "Silicon Valley" in the headline and the "San Francisco Bay Area" in the body. Which are, obviously, three fundamentally different regions. The CBRE data probably isn't perfect, but projecting their San Francisco percentage change back to 2013 does match Census Bureau numbers surprisingly well. Things get a bit confusing in 2018 because it looks like CBRE changed their grouping from SV and SF separately to the whole Bay combined. Unfortunately, HuffPo didn't know or care about that distinction, so we got this article instead.
- Tsarbomb 8y agoThat discussion doesn't mention that when people commonly refer to Toronto from abroad they refer to the GTA which is a population 6,300,000 or the broader Golden Horseshoe urban area which can include the other tech hub (Waterloo) which brings the number to over 9,200,000. This just makes it all the more confusing.
- gabriel34 8y agoWhen comparing different locations I find beneficial to look at the local purchasing power. Numeo has a quite accurate comparison of cost of living, salaries and LPP: https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Canada&country2=United+States&city1=Toronto&city2=San+Francisco%2C+CA https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou... Bottom line is, for the basket of goods and services used in their comparison, LPP at San Francisco is 30% higher than Toronto.
- atomic77 8y agoThe only hope the Toronto tech scene has to escape from its mediocrity is, ironically, a renegotiation of Nafta, or a major change in government policy on immigration. As long as the cost for privileged access to the US market is open season to poach the best and brightest of our labour market, and a local tech scene too addicted what amounts to a subsidy in the form of large immigration numbers that prevent wages here from adjusting upwards to US levels, very little will take root here beyond satellite offices and near-shoring, and the brain drain will continue.
- to_bpr 8y agoI'll put it in a mildly hyperbolic manner, to match the quality of the source this article came from: Toronto gets the sloppy seconds of America's tech industry; the Canadian tech grads who couldn't move to the US, the Indian tech migrants who couldn't get US visas, the "startups" who couldn't get US VC funding, tech conferences etc. etc. That some companies are seeking to lower their costs but retain "North American culture" by transferring some functions to Toronto is not an indication of the strength of Toronto, but its weakness. Cheap dollar, far cheaper salaries, cheap(er) office spaces, far cheaper politicians to buy if necessary, etc. When anyone in the North American tech industry can name 5 bustling Canadian startups from the top of their mind, then maybe we can talk about the Canadian tech industry doing well. Until then, it's about as relevant in tech as Bangalore and jobs there are as relevant as any of those located in other outsourced, cost-reducing "tech centres".
- stuxnet79 8y agoAs a developer who has been working and applying for jobs in the Toronto area for the past 3 years I find the tech ecosystem highly dysfunctional and I'm glad I finally moved out.
- brodsky 8y ago> I find the tech ecosystem highly dysfunctional Could you elaborate? curious what you mean.
- motohagiography 8y agoWould propose that a better relative measure of salaries is not against cost of living, but the delta between what it costs per year to hire a contractor vs. hire employee for the same role. This would show whether firms are in fact paying more for employees against the contracting cost, which is the real clearing price for the value of the work in the market - unclouded by promises of "stability." Do we have anecdotes about the delta is between how much it costs to hire a contractor vs. employee for same role in the Bay Area vs. Toronto. In Toronto, anecdotally, per year a contractor costs between %175 and %200 of an employee. Contractor firms take their %15-%50 cut depending on contractor desperation. What's it like in the Bay Area?
- true_tuna 8y agoDid they add enough housing to match? Asking for a friend.
- randomdata 8y agoJobs only come into existence once they are being done, so presumably the people who are doing them them are living somewhere.
- acchow 8y agoDoesn't mean housing is built. San Francisco builds 1 unit of housing for every 1.8 jobs. This means tons of people commute into the city from elsewhere, and lots of living rooms converted into de-facto bedrooms.
- randomdata 8y agoCertainly, but that still describes enough housing. Unless there is an indication that these tech workers are living on the street homeless?
- acchow 8y ago> living rooms converted into de-facto bedrooms > but that still describes enough housing At what point does it not describe enough housing? 3 bunk beds in the living room and 2 bunk beds per bedroom? Someone living in the bathtub?
- randomdata 8y agoGood question. If someone has a tech career, which should provide sufficient income to be able to afford to leave town and head for a place where housing is more abundant, but decides to stay anyway, then presumably they can be considered to have housing. I am not sure it is fair for us to judge how people choose to live within those houses. If sleeping in a living room is your thing, more power to you.
- st3fan 8y agoMozilla is hiring in Toronto. Check out jobs page!
- x1ph0z 8y agoAs some other users have mentioned, salaries could be higher compared to SL or NYC, but it's not like they're shit. Salaries are pretty decent, the only complaint would be the house/condo prices are kinda insane at the moment. Even with all that, Toronto and Canada in general is one of the best places to be in NA, especially if your a visible minority.