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Some US financial institutions are incorporating cybersecurity disclaimers. Case in point: ETRADE. Just received an update to the customer agreement. The defin

Some US financial institutions are incorporating cybersecurity disclaimers. Case in point: ETRADE. Just received an update to the customer agreement. The definition of “Force Majeure Event” (unforeseeable circumstances) was updated to include cybersecurity incidents. Also this: ETRADE ... makes no representation or warranty of any kind ... with respect to security.

tantalor 8y ago
Er, what about FDIC? The actual deposits are insured, right?
- jsoc815 8y ago
  In the event of failures: FDIC insures deposits in U.S. branches up to $250k per account, IIRC; SIPC covers securities held by brokerages, (forget the amount).
- solotronics 8y ago
  Bitcoin! nobody holds it but you and you can always transfer it no questions asked
  - freeone3000 8y ago
    No depositor lost any money in this case. The bank had trouble getting its insurance to pay up. If this was bitcoin, the money would be gone, because bitcoin does not have the same restrictive regulation scheme as united states dollars held in a united states bank.
    - krageon 8y ago
      If you store it in a long-term storage solution that makes sense (cold storage), it would not be "gone" because this wouldn't have happened.
      - freeone3000 8y ago
        Similarly, if people kept money in their mattresses instead of in banks, it couldn't be robbed from banks!
grouseway 8y ago
Jesus. The whole point of a bank is security. Otherwise we'd all keep it under the mattress. This boggles the mind.
- mod 8y ago
  As someone who does both, the bank, to me, is mainly a convenience. It makes it easy to pay people. I don't really trust them to keep my money safe (nor do I trust myself, exactly, but I'm in a remote location and an unlikely target).
  - astura 8y ago
    What about fire or other disaster? Also, don't you care about interest or capital gains?
    - reaperducer 8y ago
      What about fire or other disaster? Easy. Don't keep it all in one place. Also, don't you care about interest or capital gains? The interest rate on savings is under 3%. It's like paying that amount on an insurance policy to guarantee that your money isn't stolen by the bank or through the bank's negligence. And considering how banks behave these days, that's not a crazy investment.
      - mrb 8y ago
        «Don't keep it all in one place» It's shocking how many people make this error. Walter White buries millions of dollars in only one spot in Breaking Bad. People make only one copy of their cryptocurrency wallet seed. People have only 1 bank account. Etc.
        lovich 8y ago
        A lot of that is dependent. Do you keep multiple copies of passwords around, which increases the chance that someone can get access to your account. Do you open multiple bank accounts and spend extra money when you have less than 400 dollars in it at any one time?
kevin_b_er 8y ago
Then these financial institutions are openly declaring themselves insecure. But, of course, clickwrap contracts declare them not responsible for anything ever.
ballenf 8y ago
For anyone else interested, here's the old: https://us.etrade.com/e/t/estation/help?id=1209031000 https://us.etrade.com/e/t/estation/help?id=1209031000 and the new: https://content.etrade.com/etrade/estation/pdf/10118customeragreement.pdf https://content.etrade.com/etrade/estation/pdf/10118customer... Here's the new force majeure definiton: > “Force Majeure Event” shall mean any act beyond E-TRADE’s control, including any earthquake, flood, severe or extraordinary weather conditions, natural disasters or other act of God, fire, acts of war, acts of foreign or domestic terrorism, insurrection, riot, strikes, labor disputes or similar problems, accident, action of government, government restriction, exchange or market regulation, suspension of trading, communications, system or power failures, cybersecurity incident, and equipment or software malfunction. Here's the new force majeure clause: > No Liability for Indirect, Consequential, Exemplary, or Punitive Damages; Force Majeure In no event shall any E-TRADE Indemnified Parties be held liable for (i) indirect, consequential, exemplary, or punitive damages or (ii) any loss of any kind caused, directly or indirectly, by any Force Majeure Event, and the Account Holder unconditionally waives any right it may have to claim or recover such damages (even if the Account Holder has informed an E-TRADE Indemnified Party of the possibility or likelihood of such damages). Wow. First they define acts beyond their control to include things clearly within their control. Then they say they're not liable for "any loss of any kind" resulting therefrom. These contracts are maddening because they won't be enforced as written until they are. Until a loss due to an avoidable issue costs them more to cover than it does in reputational damage. So it doesn't get reported because it doesn't feel like a real policy. New York law applies here. If you sue them and lose, you pay their attorney fees. You've waived the right to a trial by jury and have likely agreed to forced arbitration unless you've explicitly opted out (see last page).
- jsoc815 8y ago
  > New York law applies here. While the contract states that, that part should actually be unenforceable unless a certain set of conditions is in place. As I noted in another post, it's important for people to review the rules of governing arbitration forum.[1] That said, law is more an art than a science and weird determinations are often made when major $$ and entrenched interests are involved. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17566966 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17566966 edit: speaking only in regards to arbitration
ISL 8y ago
Did you switch trading institutions?
- interlocutor 8y ago
  I am planning to move my stocks from ETRADE to Vanguard. Vanguard's user agreement says this: Data security is, of course, a top priority. To mitigate computer virus attacks and other acts of cyberterrorism, We have implemented controls monitored by a dedicated team of information security specialists. We also maintain a network of redundant systems, off-site data storage, and off-site tape vaults to ensure that all source data are recoverable in a disaster.

tantalor 8y ago

Er, what about FDIC? The actual deposits are insured, right?

jsoc815 8y ago
In the event of failures: FDIC insures deposits in U.S. branches up to $250k per account, IIRC; SIPC covers securities held by brokerages, (forget the amount).
solotronics 8y ago
Bitcoin! nobody holds it but you and you can always transfer it no questions asked
- freeone3000 8y ago
  No depositor lost any money in this case. The bank had trouble getting its insurance to pay up. If this was bitcoin, the money would be gone, because bitcoin does not have the same restrictive regulation scheme as united states dollars held in a united states bank.
  - krageon 8y ago
    If you store it in a long-term storage solution that makes sense (cold storage), it would not be "gone" because this wouldn't have happened.
    - freeone3000 8y ago
      Similarly, if people kept money in their mattresses instead of in banks, it couldn't be robbed from banks!

grouseway 8y ago

Jesus. The whole point of a bank is security. Otherwise we'd all keep it under the mattress. This boggles the mind.

mod 8y ago
As someone who does both, the bank, to me, is mainly a convenience. It makes it easy to pay people. I don't really trust them to keep my money safe (nor do I trust myself, exactly, but I'm in a remote location and an unlikely target).
- astura 8y ago
  What about fire or other disaster? Also, don't you care about interest or capital gains?
  - reaperducer 8y ago
    What about fire or other disaster? Easy. Don't keep it all in one place. Also, don't you care about interest or capital gains? The interest rate on savings is under 3%. It's like paying that amount on an insurance policy to guarantee that your money isn't stolen by the bank or through the bank's negligence. And considering how banks behave these days, that's not a crazy investment.
    - mrb 8y ago
      «Don't keep it all in one place» It's shocking how many people make this error. Walter White buries millions of dollars in only one spot in Breaking Bad. People make only one copy of their cryptocurrency wallet seed. People have only 1 bank account. Etc.
      - lovich 8y ago
        A lot of that is dependent. Do you keep multiple copies of passwords around, which increases the chance that someone can get access to your account. Do you open multiple bank accounts and spend extra money when you have less than 400 dollars in it at any one time?

kevin_b_er 8y ago

Then these financial institutions are openly declaring themselves insecure. But, of course, clickwrap contracts declare them not responsible for anything ever.

ballenf 8y ago

For anyone else interested, here's the old: https://us.etrade.com/e/t/estation/help?id=1209031000 https://us.etrade.com/e/t/estation/help?id=1209031000 and the new: https://content.etrade.com/etrade/estation/pdf/10118customeragreement.pdf https://content.etrade.com/etrade/estation/pdf/10118customer... Here's the new force majeure definiton: > “Force Majeure Event” shall mean any act beyond E-TRADE’s control, including any earthquake, flood, severe or extraordinary weather conditions, natural disasters or other act of God, fire, acts of war, acts of foreign or domestic terrorism, insurrection, riot, strikes, labor disputes or similar problems, accident, action of government, government restriction, exchange or market regulation, suspension of trading, communications, system or power failures, cybersecurity incident, and equipment or software malfunction. Here's the new force majeure clause: > No Liability for Indirect, Consequential, Exemplary, or Punitive Damages; Force Majeure In no event shall any E-TRADE Indemnified Parties be held liable for (i) indirect, consequential, exemplary, or punitive damages or (ii) any loss of any kind caused, directly or indirectly, by any Force Majeure Event, and the Account Holder unconditionally waives any right it may have to claim or recover such damages (even if the Account Holder has informed an E-TRADE Indemnified Party of the possibility or likelihood of such damages). Wow. First they define acts beyond their control to include things clearly within their control. Then they say they're not liable for "any loss of any kind" resulting therefrom. These contracts are maddening because they won't be enforced as written until they are. Until a loss due to an avoidable issue costs them more to cover than it does in reputational damage. So it doesn't get reported because it doesn't feel like a real policy. New York law applies here. If you sue them and lose, you pay their attorney fees. You've waived the right to a trial by jury and have likely agreed to forced arbitration unless you've explicitly opted out (see last page).

jsoc815 8y ago
> New York law applies here. While the contract states that, that part should actually be unenforceable unless a certain set of conditions is in place. As I noted in another post, it's important for people to review the rules of governing arbitration forum.[1] That said, law is more an art than a science and weird determinations are often made when major $$ and entrenched interests are involved. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17566966 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17566966 edit: speaking only in regards to arbitration

ISL 8y ago

Did you switch trading institutions?

interlocutor 8y ago
I am planning to move my stocks from ETRADE to Vanguard. Vanguard's user agreement says this: Data security is, of course, a top priority. To mitigate computer virus attacks and other acts of cyberterrorism, We have implemented controls monitored by a dedicated team of information security specialists. We also maintain a network of redundant systems, off-site data storage, and off-site tape vaults to ensure that all source data are recoverable in a disaster.