8 ms·

As a teacher of ages 4 up until 14, I think parents and people in general need to be concious toward what constitutes "over" parenting. Too often we as teachers

As a teacher of ages 4 up until 14, I think parents and people in general need to be concious toward what constitutes "over" parenting. Too often we as teachers see students that are behaving poorly, or having more trouble in school, because they do not have enough help or consistency at home. Parents reading articles like this might take them too literally and step too far from their child's life. Parenting should be a balance. You should know, as a parent, what is happening with your child's schooling, and be there to help. But you should not micromanage the child. Parent involvement leads to more academic confidence and success[1], and more behavioural[2] success. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3020099/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3020099/ [2] https://steinhardt.nyu.edu/scmsAdmin/media/users/sm6/McCormick_2013_parent_involvement.pdf https://steinhardt.nyu.edu/scmsAdmin/media/users/sm6/McCormi...

burfog 8y ago
There is a slightly different way to interpret that. Some students, despite being in your classroom, are really being homeschooled. For example, my wife and I both got extra assignments from our parents. The parents aren't just helping. The parents are teaching. You aren't trusted to teach. Other students have parents that trust you to teach. Your job is to teach, and these parents expect you to do it. In theory, they are correct.
- fosco 8y ago
  I find this perspective interesting and I think this discussion needs to be taken further as I think it is unclear on both sides what the final expectations are to be upon completion of class/grade. that being said, I am concerned that some parents expect that teachers are also doing the 'parenting' side of things which may be unrealistic. I think that in most public schools (the one I went to) some parenting needs to be executed by teachers otherwise a small handful of kids could derail any teaching getting done in the first place.
  - ergothus 8y ago
    The "teachers shouldn't parent; parents stopped parenting" lesson is one I've heard from more than a few. What if teachers ALWAYS "parented", and as societies grow more tolerant and diverse this obviously doesn't scale (parents disagree with teachers on what should be taught). Thus we decide on this image of teachers giving knowledge and means of learning, while parents give morals and social structures. But has this image every existed in practice? How do we know it is even achievable? A child is learning from EVERYTHING. Is it truly reasonable to expect that teachers aren't "parenting"? Even if they expressly attempt to focus on intellectual pursuits only, that is just showing a different set of parenting lessons (potentially about lack of accountability, or the division of social mores from everything else). Likewise, if the teachers have turned to this absent form of parenting, are we correct in assuming that other parents aren't doing their "jobs"? (After all, it's never MY kid that isn't getting parenting, it's everyone else's). I don't have solutions or suggestions, but I want to raise the idea that maybe it's not "who" is or is not parenting, because everyone is, all the time, even if trying NOT to "parent". If so, then simply trying harder to ensuring parenting only happens from parents, and DOES happen from them, is doomed to failure, incompatible with the operating of developing minds?
    - fosco 8y ago
      this is an interesting point and I think is more valid than many teachers (and adults of all flavors) want to admit due to not wanting to accept the enormous responsibility, thanks for sharing!
    - fatnoah 8y ago
      >A child is learning from EVERYTHING. Is it truly reasonable to expect that teachers aren't "parenting"? This is precisely why, as a non-religious parent, I actually appreciated attending a Catholic school and sent my son to a non-denominational Christian school. It wasn't about religion, but it was about being in an environment where elements of characters were also emphasized.
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    > I am concerned that some parents expect that teachers are also doing the 'parenting' side of things which may be unrealistic. If you are an adult (or even the responsible older child), and you are supervising one or more children when their parents aren't present, you have to do the parenting side of things. It's not optional. Like, literally not optional, not merely morally not optional—if you are in that position you are standing in the place of a parent, whether you intend to be or not, and whether you do it well or not.
- privacypoller 8y ago
  Not sure what jurisdiction you're in, but I'm in Canada where we generally have good teachers. The problem we're experiencing is a curriculum that we feel is becoming easier over time and shifting away from core fundamentals. Teachers are powerless to oppose or address this, regardless of how they personally feel or want to teach. Should my 10-yr-old learn coping strategies for anxiety? absolutely, but she should also be learning some Canadian and World geography, be able to multiply numbers beyond 8x8, practice word and logic problems and understand that computers are not just cell phones and ipad applications. If we relied solely on the public education system it would be questionable if any of these were covered.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - afarrell 8y ago
    I notice that The things you list are things that can learn online from youtube and video games. - Geography Now: https://youtu.be/DxxZOsfsIUM https://youtu.be/DxxZOsfsIUM - Crash Course Computer Science: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8dPuuaLjXtNlUrzyH5r6jN9ulIgZBpdo https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8dPuuaLjXtNlUrzyH5r6... - 6.004 EdX: https://www.edx.org/course/computation-structures-part-1-digital-mitx-6-004-1x-0 https://www.edx.org/course/computation-structures-part-1-dig... - Hearts of Iron, Europa Universalis, Sid Meyer’s Pirates, Railroad Tycoon, bunches of kids games teach geography or arithmetic Whereas there isn’t really a good digital experience you can build to teach brain-management skills... or is there?
    - indigochill 8y ago
      One of Coursera's top courses is a course on learning how to learn, which is really about learning the balance of self-discipline (both how to do it and why it works). It works not just for learning, but also for time management and other things: https://www.coursera.org/learn/learning-how-to-learn https://www.coursera.org/learn/learning-how-to-learn Don't know about online courses for things like emotional health, but I see no reason there couldn't be.
- loco5niner 8y ago
  I wouldn't trust every teacher to teach well. The simple fact is, there are good teachers and there are bad teachers. Ultimately, it's the parents job to make sure kids are brought up well. That means helping teach during some years and stepping back more in some years. Parent involvement is a must.
  - gowld 8y ago
    Sometimes parents are unable or unwilling to bring up their kids well. What should happen to those kids?
    - loco5niner 8y ago
      I don't see how parents failing to do their job changes what I said. But to answer your unrelated question: Of course, responsible adults, which includes teachers, should help them as well as they can. Unfortunately, try as they might, only parents can do a parents job. Really, it comes down to providing a good family to as many kids as possible. Divorce, broken families, single parent homes, foster care, etc... They all fall short of what a good solid Mom/Dad home (with a good relationship between Mom and Dad) can provide a kid. That's where we should be focusing. Oh, and while I'm at it: World Peace. *edit - Unfortunately, we can't do anything about people dying or getting sick. But short of that, people really need to be responsible about the situation they are in when they bring kids into the world. And then they need to take care of those kids.
kbuchanan 8y ago
Although I agree, it's not the neglectful parents who are reading books like this...
btilly 8y ago
Let me turn this around. As a parent, I think that teachers should pay attention to research on homework that says there is on average no academic benefit, but there is a huge cost in family conflict. You have enough time in the classroom to teach and provide practice time. Free family time up for what parents see best.
- seanmcdirmid 8y ago
  As a semi-academic, practice supervision sounds like a horrible use of limited teacher/classroom time. But I guess that is true at the high end (in universities and higher performing kids) but not at the lower end where professional practice supervision is much more necessary.
  - georgeecollins 8y ago
    My child goes to a very good school and they often teach math "upside down". In this method, the homework is to watch the teacher give a recorded lecture. Then, in class they work on the homework (math problems) while the teacher goes around watching them work and helping them with the parts they don't understand. He loves that method and seems to lean a lot from it.
    - emiliobumachar 8y ago
      That's great! FYI, it's called a Flipped Classroom: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flipped_classroom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flipped_classroom
      - romwell 8y ago
        I tried it when I was teaching Calculus... Turns out, recording video lectures so that they are lively and watchable is hard. The students loved the couple of videos I posted, but then I burned out making them - since doing that was in addition to actually being in class, grading, and working on my thesis. So I went back to the more traditional (and ineffective setting) - one thing I regret about that semester. However, looking back, I'd need an entire semester just to develop the materials. Of course, that was not an option.
hannob 8y ago
> Parent involvement leads to more academic confidence and success[1],[...] > [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3020099/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3020099/ Half-OT, but you're making a textbook logical error in interpreting the science you're citing. This is an observational study, making claims about associations, yet you clearly indicate a causal effect in your words.
notduncansmith 8y ago
It’s because behavior is an emergent property of a dynamical system, and that means that if you want a particular behavior, you have to know when to provide input and when to let the system process. If you want a plant to bear fruit, you have to nurture it for a while, and you will never be able to browbeat it into producing fruit before it has developed the facilities for doing so. Part of effective parenting is resolving the dependency tree for healthy attitude/behavior in your child.

burfog 8y ago

There is a slightly different way to interpret that. Some students, despite being in your classroom, are really being homeschooled. For example, my wife and I both got extra assignments from our parents. The parents aren't just helping. The parents are teaching. You aren't trusted to teach. Other students have parents that trust you to teach. Your job is to teach, and these parents expect you to do it. In theory, they are correct.

fosco 8y ago
I find this perspective interesting and I think this discussion needs to be taken further as I think it is unclear on both sides what the final expectations are to be upon completion of class/grade. that being said, I am concerned that some parents expect that teachers are also doing the 'parenting' side of things which may be unrealistic. I think that in most public schools (the one I went to) some parenting needs to be executed by teachers otherwise a small handful of kids could derail any teaching getting done in the first place.
- ergothus 8y ago
  The "teachers shouldn't parent; parents stopped parenting" lesson is one I've heard from more than a few. What if teachers ALWAYS "parented", and as societies grow more tolerant and diverse this obviously doesn't scale (parents disagree with teachers on what should be taught). Thus we decide on this image of teachers giving knowledge and means of learning, while parents give morals and social structures. But has this image every existed in practice? How do we know it is even achievable? A child is learning from EVERYTHING. Is it truly reasonable to expect that teachers aren't "parenting"? Even if they expressly attempt to focus on intellectual pursuits only, that is just showing a different set of parenting lessons (potentially about lack of accountability, or the division of social mores from everything else). Likewise, if the teachers have turned to this absent form of parenting, are we correct in assuming that other parents aren't doing their "jobs"? (After all, it's never MY kid that isn't getting parenting, it's everyone else's). I don't have solutions or suggestions, but I want to raise the idea that maybe it's not "who" is or is not parenting, because everyone is, all the time, even if trying NOT to "parent". If so, then simply trying harder to ensuring parenting only happens from parents, and DOES happen from them, is doomed to failure, incompatible with the operating of developing minds?
  - fosco 8y ago
    this is an interesting point and I think is more valid than many teachers (and adults of all flavors) want to admit due to not wanting to accept the enormous responsibility, thanks for sharing!
  - fatnoah 8y ago
    >A child is learning from EVERYTHING. Is it truly reasonable to expect that teachers aren't "parenting"? This is precisely why, as a non-religious parent, I actually appreciated attending a Catholic school and sent my son to a non-denominational Christian school. It wasn't about religion, but it was about being in an environment where elements of characters were also emphasized.
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > I am concerned that some parents expect that teachers are also doing the 'parenting' side of things which may be unrealistic. If you are an adult (or even the responsible older child), and you are supervising one or more children when their parents aren't present, you have to do the parenting side of things. It's not optional. Like, literally not optional, not merely morally not optional—if you are in that position you are standing in the place of a parent, whether you intend to be or not, and whether you do it well or not.
privacypoller 8y ago
Not sure what jurisdiction you're in, but I'm in Canada where we generally have good teachers. The problem we're experiencing is a curriculum that we feel is becoming easier over time and shifting away from core fundamentals. Teachers are powerless to oppose or address this, regardless of how they personally feel or want to teach. Should my 10-yr-old learn coping strategies for anxiety? absolutely, but she should also be learning some Canadian and World geography, be able to multiply numbers beyond 8x8, practice word and logic problems and understand that computers are not just cell phones and ipad applications. If we relied solely on the public education system it would be questionable if any of these were covered.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- afarrell 8y ago
  I notice that The things you list are things that can learn online from youtube and video games. - Geography Now: https://youtu.be/DxxZOsfsIUM https://youtu.be/DxxZOsfsIUM - Crash Course Computer Science: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8dPuuaLjXtNlUrzyH5r6jN9ulIgZBpdo https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8dPuuaLjXtNlUrzyH5r6... - 6.004 EdX: https://www.edx.org/course/computation-structures-part-1-digital-mitx-6-004-1x-0 https://www.edx.org/course/computation-structures-part-1-dig... - Hearts of Iron, Europa Universalis, Sid Meyer’s Pirates, Railroad Tycoon, bunches of kids games teach geography or arithmetic Whereas there isn’t really a good digital experience you can build to teach brain-management skills... or is there?
  - indigochill 8y ago
    One of Coursera's top courses is a course on learning how to learn, which is really about learning the balance of self-discipline (both how to do it and why it works). It works not just for learning, but also for time management and other things: https://www.coursera.org/learn/learning-how-to-learn https://www.coursera.org/learn/learning-how-to-learn Don't know about online courses for things like emotional health, but I see no reason there couldn't be.
loco5niner 8y ago
I wouldn't trust every teacher to teach well. The simple fact is, there are good teachers and there are bad teachers. Ultimately, it's the parents job to make sure kids are brought up well. That means helping teach during some years and stepping back more in some years. Parent involvement is a must.
- gowld 8y ago
  Sometimes parents are unable or unwilling to bring up their kids well. What should happen to those kids?
  - loco5niner 8y ago
    I don't see how parents failing to do their job changes what I said. But to answer your unrelated question: Of course, responsible adults, which includes teachers, should help them as well as they can. Unfortunately, try as they might, only parents can do a parents job. Really, it comes down to providing a good family to as many kids as possible. Divorce, broken families, single parent homes, foster care, etc... They all fall short of what a good solid Mom/Dad home (with a good relationship between Mom and Dad) can provide a kid. That's where we should be focusing. Oh, and while I'm at it: World Peace. *edit - Unfortunately, we can't do anything about people dying or getting sick. But short of that, people really need to be responsible about the situation they are in when they bring kids into the world. And then they need to take care of those kids.

kbuchanan 8y ago

Although I agree, it's not the neglectful parents who are reading books like this...

btilly 8y ago

Let me turn this around. As a parent, I think that teachers should pay attention to research on homework that says there is on average no academic benefit, but there is a huge cost in family conflict. You have enough time in the classroom to teach and provide practice time. Free family time up for what parents see best.

seanmcdirmid 8y ago
As a semi-academic, practice supervision sounds like a horrible use of limited teacher/classroom time. But I guess that is true at the high end (in universities and higher performing kids) but not at the lower end where professional practice supervision is much more necessary.
- georgeecollins 8y ago
  My child goes to a very good school and they often teach math "upside down". In this method, the homework is to watch the teacher give a recorded lecture. Then, in class they work on the homework (math problems) while the teacher goes around watching them work and helping them with the parts they don't understand. He loves that method and seems to lean a lot from it.
  - emiliobumachar 8y ago
    That's great! FYI, it's called a Flipped Classroom: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flipped_classroom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flipped_classroom
    - romwell 8y ago
      I tried it when I was teaching Calculus... Turns out, recording video lectures so that they are lively and watchable is hard. The students loved the couple of videos I posted, but then I burned out making them - since doing that was in addition to actually being in class, grading, and working on my thesis. So I went back to the more traditional (and ineffective setting) - one thing I regret about that semester. However, looking back, I'd need an entire semester just to develop the materials. Of course, that was not an option.

hannob 8y ago

> Parent involvement leads to more academic confidence and success[1],[...] > [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3020099/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3020099/ Half-OT, but you're making a textbook logical error in interpreting the science you're citing. This is an observational study, making claims about associations, yet you clearly indicate a causal effect in your words.

notduncansmith 8y ago

It’s because behavior is an emergent property of a dynamical system, and that means that if you want a particular behavior, you have to know when to provide input and when to let the system process. If you want a plant to bear fruit, you have to nurture it for a while, and you will never be able to browbeat it into producing fruit before it has developed the facilities for doing so. Part of effective parenting is resolving the dependency tree for healthy attitude/behavior in your child.