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US breaks up IRS phone scam operation
- microcolonel 8y agoGood work, it's heartening to see that these institutions eventually work together. Hopefully this success can be replicated with scammers who have targets less directly interesting to the state.
- mintplant 8y agoA friend lost a significant amount of money to what could have been this scam. The MO fits (posing as the IRS, threatening with arrest/deportation, collecting payments via gift cards). The article mentions restitution. Does anyone know how he could find out if he's eligible?
- jasongill 8y agoThis response is going to sound like a joke but it isn't: be sure to tell him that they won't call him to discuss restitution. It's extremely common for scammers to sell the list of their successful "buyers". Marks on the IRS scam lists will now be called by people saying "we are from the IRS scam restitution department, just need your bank details so we can return your money..."
- supertrope 8y agoThis is so sad. It's kind of like how charities heavily target those who have given before. And spear-phishing.
- duxup 8y agoNice to see some great cooperation with all those groups. >“hundreds of millions” of dollars I guess I'm not scamming anyone out of anything but if I was and got a million.... I like to think I'd be smart enough to burn everything and enjoy...
- torbjorn 8y agoGreed is a complex and consuming emotion, don't underestimate it's ability to ensare people.
- toomanybeersies 8y agoIt's not just greed, or criminals. I hear people all the time saying "if I made a startup and sold if for millions of dollars, I'd retire and never work again", when most people who do make millions on their startup continue to work. It's that work ethic that is what made them that multi-million dollar startup. Whether criminal or not, there's a particular work ethic that keeps people like this making more money when they could retire happily.
- duxup 8y agoI feel like that is a bit different. The dude who sold their startup doesn't have much to lose at that point to take another shot. The criminal though who goes for that extra million can lose it all. Very different risks and stuff to weigh.
- duxup 8y agoI'm amazed how often that is what gets folks who could have gotten away with it but go too far. Thank goodness criminals are dumb!
- TeMPOraL 8y ago> Thank goodness criminals are dumb! Are they all dumb, or is it that only dumb ones get caught and you end up reading about them, while the smart ones carry on undetected?
- iamshs 8y agoIndian press reported the crime netted single crime ring >$300 Million. Guy fled to an East European country. Haven’t followed the news since about what happened later.
- exabrial 8y agoDang, I liked wasting these guys time. My technique was to pause as long as possible while obviously stuffing my face with Cheetos and telling them hang on
- praneshp 8y agoThere is no way this was all the scammers. Don't worry about it!
- supertrope 8y agoI conferenced in a bot called Lenny: sip:13475147296@in.callcentric.com or plain old 1-347-514-7296 A lot of spam callers hang up once I say I'm transferring them, but sometimes they talk to Lenny until the whole script loops!
- crb002 8y agoFinally. I've been harassed by those idiots for almost a year. How did it take so long?
- JumpCrisscross 8y ago> How did it take so long? Collective action problem [1]. Namely, our system requires people to document and report such problems. Few people do. As a result, certain problems get disproportionate interest compared to others. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_action https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_action
- supertrope 8y agoThe inherent difficulty in catching criminals who act from a distance, international police cooperation is required, following due process and using extradition treaties. Even extradition between USA states can convince local police to shelve less severe crime cases until the suspect visits the jurisdiction again. If a scammer is located in Russia, it will take a literal FBI trap to bring them to justice.
- shawn 8y agoTwo other conspirators in Illinois were sentenced in February to between two years to just over four years for conspiracy, and a third person in Arizona was given probation in a plea agreement, it said. Sounds like the Prisoner’s Dilemma paid off for that third person.
- torbjorn 8y agoGood work, now go after those "extended warranty" people.
- JumpCrisscross 8y ago> 2 contractors in India involving five call centers in Ahmedabad, a city in western India, have been indicted on wire fraud, money laundering and other conspiracy charges as part of the operation, the department said. They have yet to be arraigned, it said. Is there any realistic chance of Indian law enforcement catching up with these guys?
- iamshs 8y agoNone. Especially from that state, Gujarat. Home of corporate and financial crime. Sagar Thakkar fled to East Europe last year after netting $300 MM. It is upto FBI too pull its weight.
- duxup 8y ago>Home of corporate and financial crime. Man I didn't know corporate and financal crime put up a home office. That's pretty brazen.
- iamshs 8y agoGujarat indeed is the home office for corporate and financial crime. Denying it will be a travesty. Gujarat is where biggest bitcoin swindling happened in India, to the tune of $1 Billion. With active police involvement too.
- kamaal 8y agoPolice in India plays a game on both sides of good and bad, they only take sides after its clear who is winning. Its a standard tactic among police in India with regards to any crime/criminal. Its very common for them to work for the the criminals. I remember a few years back there was an anti-corruption raid on a police inspectors home(in Koramangala, Bangalore) and in the gold jewelry recovered many residents complained it was the same jewelry stolen from their home a few years back. In short, the police helped the thieves to steal(provide information, logistical support and guard the home while the thief is stealing) and shared the spoils :) :) Here is one more such case: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/bengaluru/police-helped-me-rob-houses-says-thief-with-50-robbery-cases/articleshow/63717317.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/bengaluru/police-he... Recently there was a journalist whose scooter was stolen by the cops and was caught on CCTV. In these cases the cops would have been paid off, its only when the crime becomes intolerable and larger media attention catches on do they act per law. Some times they even pay off the judges in lower courts.
- randomdrake 8y agoKitboga, over on Twitch[1], frequently livestreams the experience of talking to people executing IRS scams. Among other types of computer scams like "unlock your computer for X dollars," it's fascinating to listen in on the tactics used to prey on unassuming victims. [1] - https://www.twitch.tv/kitboga https://www.twitch.tv/kitboga
- fallat 8y agoSuch a legend. I hope he gets some sort of "Good guy of the year" award. It inspires me to make sure my own abilities contribute to the greater good.
- klaustopher 8y agoI think having around 10.000 viewers at a time and the donations and subs coming in is helping ;)
- MatthiasP 8y agoI wonder if the information he got from his calls helped in this case.
- walrus01 8y agoA lot of the Indian scammers have moved on to pretending to be the CRA (Canada revenue agency), the Canuck version of the IRS. Toronto and Vancouver area codes are plagued by robodialers connecting to fake cra scam call centers. Canada has a lot less resources than the US to spend manpower investigating and building cases with the Indian law enforcement agencies.
- jonathanmayer 8y agoI worked on countering phone scams and robocalls at the Federal Communications Commission for over a year. This operation was a big win and an impressive international collaboration. That said, the robocall problem is getting worse, not better. Robocall volume is at an all-time high: https://robocallindex.com/ https://robocallindex.com/ In many respects, the problem of telephone spam today is similar to the problem of email spam in the early 2000s. Litigating against spammers had limited efficacy, so the community developed blacklists, better filtering, and stronger authentication (SPF, DKIM, and DMARC). Until the major carriers get serious about similar steps, especially filtering and authentication (i.e. SHAKEN and STIR), these fraudulent calls won't stop. And, in the interim, vulnerable populations will continue to be disproportionately victimized.
- sureaboutthis 8y agoHow about the FCC get serious about the problem and force the telcos to stop it. Obviously, as you say, they have no interest in doing it themselves.
- viraptor 8y agoPretty much this. With the current tech stack in telcos, the only way anything can change is if they're put in a "you're responsible for this call, unless you can point to who sent this call" situation. While the receiving / forwarding party can't validate the originating number, they can always point at the telco that sent the call in. Repeat until you find a company / person to fine.
- supertrope 8y agoJust like airlines get fined for carrying passengers who violate immigration policy. Thus they are effectively deputized to enforce the rules. That would root out domestic telcos who enable bad behavior. What happens when the origin telco is in another jurisdiction?
- viraptor 8y ago
- nerflad 8y agoI am so happy to see some of these predators get caught. A former coworker, a very smart but also very naive network engineer from the middle east, was hooked by these people shortly after immigrating. They said they were the US government and that he would be immediately deported if he didn't cooperate. He ending up sending them $30,000 if I recall correctly. :(
- Scoundreller 8y agoThe reality is that the world is complicated. Some calls asking for money are completely legitimate, and if you don't act, bad things will happen. Others are total scams. If you're new here, they both sound the same because they are: People asking money for stupid reasons. E.g. mis-applied payments, a "1st-world" banking system where payments take several days, lack of chip-and-PIN resulting in overdrafts and failed bill payments. In some places, if a reporter stops by your work to ask you questions, you'll lose your job if you don't answer them, because the newspaper is the government. In the USA, it's usually the opposite. It takes a while to sort it all out.
- viraptor 8y ago> Some calls asking for money are completely legitimate, and if you don't act, bad things will happen. Have you got some examples? I don't think I ever got a call asking me for money. Or at least not one that I needed to act on immediately - a call from letting agency to check my rent payment would be the closest, but it was both verified and done outside of the call.
- JumpCrisscross 8y ago> I don't think I ever got a call asking me for money I have gotten fraud alert calls from my bank or card issuer. When I got those, I would thank them, hang up and dial the number on the back of my card. Usually legit, but once it was not.
- viraptor 8y ago
- _bxg1 8y agoDon't know if this is the same group, but it's pretty cathartic to watch https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EzedMdx6QG4 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EzedMdx6QG4
- Scoundreller 8y agoWhat all these bots need are phrases/scripts that the public can feed to them. The phrases that keep them on the line the longest get played in the pool more frequently. Long recordings get automatically posted to youtube. They're so internet 1.0, we need to get to 2.0!
- wizardofmysore 8y agoDo they ask for direct bank transfer? US government should educate citizens about the only accepted ways of payment to US gov.
- gangstead 8y agoFrom what I've read the victim is asked to go buy itunes gift cards and read the numbers to the scammers. They are looking for only the most vulnerable of people.
- paradroid 8y agoA fake IRS phone scam? So it's a real IRS phone scam, and not a fake one?
- cwkoss 8y agoBusiness idea: shared phone assistants. Whenever someone calls your number, the assistant answers only "hello?", they have to speak to your assistant and ask for you by name and/or passphrase to be connected to you. You can add some prestige to calling someone (having a human answering and screening your calls for you) at a pretty low cost (1 minute per call? 2-3 cheap workers could cover the whole biz, could share lines between ~ 50-100 people with distinct sounding names). eliminate all unsolicited calls for the customer.
- inteleng 8y agoThis exists, and it's called a secretary.
- supertrope 8y agoToo expensive to scale. Recorded greetings and directories have been around for a long time. Just having "Welcome to XYZ Co. For sales press 1, for support press 2, for a staff directory press 3" etc. is fairly effective in rebuffing robocalls as only human spammers bother pressing digits.
- partycoder 8y ago- Call your phone provider, ask them to block all incoming international calls. - Ask international callers to use an app instead. I used to get calls every day and after doing this it stopped.
- rdtsc 8y agoMost calls from scammers I get come from my area code. Well it makes it easy for me, since I don't live in the area code my cell phone is from, so I know not to pickup. But in general blocking international calls might be easily circumvented.
- partycoder 8y agoThey don't come from your area code, that's just part of the spoofing.
- rdtsc 8y agoI meant to say the caller ID shows numbers from the local area code often. So blocking international numbers might not work.
- aparks517 8y agoThe signaling data includes the real origin. CID is convenience data provided by the originator. The telcos wouldn’t use it for anything important, like billing.
- foepys 8y agoI wonder why this isn't a problem in Europe, at least I haven't heard of anything like it. Is it because Indians don't speak German/French/Spanish/etc.? Or is the American phone system somehow worse than the European?
- simias 8y agoI have the same question, the situation seems pretty dire in the USA but as far as I'm aware we don't have nearly the same problem over here. And while most Indians probably don't speak French many African countries do (after all, that's where we put our call centers) and I'm sure if it was possible to make millions that way somebody would've tried.
- realusername 8y agoYou have this issue in France as well but it's mostly concentrated on landlines, not mobile phones (no idea why).
- thisone 8y agoNot an English problem, we don't have the problem to the level of the US in the UK either. (have you been in an accident bots are around, but you don't get calls every day or multiple calls per day as a normal thing)
- toasterlovin 8y agoProbably because it’s easier to find Indian/Filipino call center operators who speak English and the US is such a large market that there’s no need to expand into smaller European markets.
- WalterBright 8y agoYeah, well, I got one of those calls just last Friday.
- WalterBright 8y agoI've been pestered several times a day with the "last chance to lower your credit card rates" phone scam. I finally hit on a solution. I press 1 to speak to a representative, I get a human, then I follow their script until it gets to the "what's your credit card number" question. I say I have to go look for it. So I randomly make noises like opening doors, closing drawers, shuffling papers. I had one on the line for 10 minutes before he gave up. After a couple doses of "the treatment", they stop calling. Blessed relief! This method works because it costs them human time. Just hanging up on their robot, or their human, doesn't work. They just call again.
- jacobr 8y ago> They chose their victims through information obtained from “data brokers” or from other sources, the department said. Would be interesting to know more about this. In the legit call center business the phone numbers of people who have previously bought something are more valuable. The ability to target specific demographics is probably a prerequisite for a scam like this, calling randomly would be really expensive.
- supertrope 8y agoIt could be either way. Obviously targeted to specific demographics is the most effective, but phone calls especially robocalls are very cheap. Even ratios as low as 10^-6 are profitable when you make millions of robocalls. The USA Do Not Call list is a de facto live number list. Illegal telemarketers (redundant?) can directly use it as their target list. Another method is to randomly call numbers and mark "Hello?" responses as live.
- tonyquart 8y agoI have just read some recent reports and complaints filed by people at http://www.whycall.me/631-318-6350.html http://www.whycall.me/631-318-6350.html about these IRS scams. I think people should have been really aware of such scams, because they have been around harassing us for years. We also need to keep spreading the words to everyone about this.
- workshop_leads 8y agoSomething not talked about. Big uptick in robo calls since sites started texting me security codes to sign in.
- supertrope 8y agoMight be a coincidence. I'm sure some companies blatantly sell your contact information. It only takes one.
- TeMPOraL 8y agoSell, or just (pretend to) don't notice it being taken away. The story I've heard several times from different people about how it's handled in Poland - your operator usually subcontracts their support & telemarketing to a third party; some spammer will pay an employee of that third party to "liberate" their customer database as they end their employment.
- nasredin 8y agoAhhh, maybe don't give out your phone number to Google and their ilk? Bonus: a FU to warrantless NSA metadata spying.
- cmurf 8y agoI had an old landline number ported to Google Voice about 10 years ago. Now, 90% of the calls on that number are spam. Anything marked as spam in Google Voice still passes through to the Hangouts app. Google has done the most supremely crap job with Hangouts and Google Voice integration. Hey let's passthrough spam to the app and have no search function! Hilariously quite a lot of calls are "Google SEO" related, scammy sounding credit offers, and political donation solicitations.
- mr_overalls 8y agoCan anyone recommend an app to block these robocalls?
- advertising 8y agoLiterally got an fake IRS robocall threatening litigation yesterday and my brother received the same call the day before that.
- joejerryronnie 8y agoYou know, this scam probably wouldn't have been as successful if the real IRS didn't behave like a bunch of shady scam artists themselves. Twice over the years, I've been sent very intimidating letters by the IRS claiming I owe back taxes on clearly erronous assumptions by them. These have both been cleared up by submitting documentation but I've had to spend a good chunk of time in doing so. I also cannot phone them directly, I must fax reams of personal info to some random fax number with no confirmation they even received it. By the time I received the IRS letters, I typically had to respond within a matter of days or face additional penalties (what if I was on vacation). Even the most basic of cross checking my tax forms would have clearly shown everything was legit. And these were by no means unusual or complex tax situations, just very basic things that millions of Americans report on their taxes every year. But even though I knew everything was above board, the tax laws are so convoluted that I was in constant fear the IRS would still find some BS reason I owed them more money.
- unsignedint 8y agoI rarely receive calls these days and when I receive, they are mostly scams or telemarketers, so I basically accept call from a small set of whitelist and drop the rest. Most people who need to speak to me attempt to contact me via different means anyways. I don't have much faith they will ever fix PSTN that I'm dreaming for the day I can start ignoring all calls.