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A Vigilante Fighting Engine Exhaust
- nwah1 8y agoEngine exhaust is full of carcinogens. Given this, it is entirely fair to fine polluters in proportion to the level of harm they cause. Outsourcing the enforcement to citizens is a bit strange, but it is important work and someone should be paid to enforce the law.
- bunderbunder 8y agoOutsourcing the enforcement to citizens might be the only practical way to do it. According to the article, in about 18 months, his 25% cut of the fines amounted to roughly $5,000. Assuming you could hire city employees to do it, you'd probably want to cover their salaries with the fines. Let's say city's overhead from prosecuting these cases is 25% (Judges need to get paid, too), so that's $15,000 in 18 months, or $10,000 in 12, if they spend as much time at it as this guy. He's obviously motivated, and keeping an eye out whenever he's on the streets, so let's assume a full timer can only manage about 10x as much vigilant time as him. That's $100,000/yr. Assuming you want to cover both salary and benefits, that might not be enough in NYC. And, assuming the program were at all successful, then you'd expect revenues from it to drop rapidly as every commercial operator in the city starts warning their employees.
- bunderbunder 8y agoAnother thought: Citizen bounties like this might also be less likely to engender corruption.
- pavel_lishin 8y agoAre fines typically calculated to cover the cost of their enforcement? That smells weird to me.
- et2o 8y ago100k/year is definitely well above (~2x) the median salary for someone in public service in a job like this in NYC. Police officers in the NYPD start around 42k/year.
- icebraining 8y agoSalary is just one of the costs. There's pensions, equipment, training, etc.
- dsfyu404ed 8y ago>Outsourcing the enforcement to citizens might be the only practical way to do it. Outsourcing law enforcement has its own negative externalities. Do you want to live in a society where you have to worry that any minor violation of law will be reported by whoever sees it? Sounds a lot like 1984 to me.
- ams6110 8y agoThe polluters would be the owners of the cars. So that idea will go nowhere.
- wffurr 8y agoGitem tiger! I wish we could go past idling and start mandating some serious emissions controls, especially on diesel truck and heavy equipment engines in urban areas, but also on all the rest of the emitters.
- klondike_ 8y agoI suppose he got his wish considering newer cars automatically shut off the engine after idling for a few seconds, and turn it back on when you want to go.
- mjevans 8y agoI really dislike this at stoplights. It would be tolerable if there were a smart traffic grid and the cars could subscribe to get a notice at (45 seconds down to the multiple of shutdown interval duration div 2 and floored to seconds); of course if you did THAT street racing would use it as a starting line signal so it'll never happen. Alternatively electrics only really turn all the way on when accelerating so something with at least an electric drive system is going to be the medium range solution.
- Tomte 8y agoWhy do you dislike it? The latency introduced by an „unnecessary stop“ is absolutely negligible. A second at most. Most people will regularly take longer to realize the traffic light has turned green.
- carry_bit 8y agoA second is huge when you're used to it being instantaneous.
- Tomte 8y agoAs it‘s only relevant a very small fraction of stops, but has clear benefits, I don‘t see the problem.
- sp332 8y agoAdding a second per car in line at a light is going to decrease the number of cars that can make it through quite a lot.
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- subpixel 8y agoThis man is my hero. I've knocked on dozens of car windows at Costco over the last several years, and now I realize I can get paid.
- yardie 8y agoExhaust particulates are the absolute worst as far as city dwelling. I had a balcony overlooking a boulevard in Paris. I would have to clean it every week from the diesel particulates that settled there. One time, after we went on holiday, I came back and tried to clean it and just gave up. It was so thick it filled 3 dust pans. After that I just locked the glass door and never went out there again. Then I thought about how much of that junk is making its way into my lungs. The city of Paris has only recently started to take any action on it. One was to ban trucks of a certain age. But now everyone is requesting waivers because they can't meet deliveries in the city.
- dleslie 8y agoNo need to wonder, as this sort of thing has been studied[0]. You can check your local air quality online[1]. 0: http://berkeleyearth.org/air-pollution-and-cigarette-equivalence/ http://berkeleyearth.org/air-pollution-and-cigarette-equival... 1: http://aqicn.org/here/ http://aqicn.org/here/
- greeneggs 8y agoIn major cities in the US, I've found that PurpleAir is a much better resource for checking local air quality. Air quality varies significantly, and the EPA only has very sparse monitors. PurpleAir San Francisco: https://www.purpleair.com/map?&zoom=12&lat=37.7&lng=-122.4 https://www.purpleair.com/map?&zoom=12&lat=37.7&lng=-122.4
- corv 8y agoThis is a great product, unfortunately it’s quite expensive.
- nitwit005 8y agoI recall this photo from New York: https://viewing.nyc/nyc-building-exterior-cleaning-before-and-after/ https://viewing.nyc/nyc-building-exterior-cleaning-before-an...
- magduf 8y ago
- o_____________o 8y agoThanks, George. Now please get noise violations on the NYC cars that pollute our air with pealing horns. Cab drivers especially seem to spend their entire shift impotently honking.
- chillacy 8y agoWhen I was in Shanghai most recently, I found out that they had solved the issue of honking (which used to be even worse than anything we have in the US) by having these microphones at intersections triangulate honking, capture a photo, and mail the driver a ticket and link to the video. It's definitely on the scale of big brother, but it also works.
- hfdgiutdryg 8y agoI bet a detailed post about how that system works would do well on HN...
- memset 8y agoI'm certain I have friends in neighboring NYC buildings would be willing to cooperate on such a project.
- Reason077 8y agoWe need a system like this to deal with excessive/extreme motorbike noise. Modified "loud pipe" exhausts are illegal where I live, but it seems like the cops are unable (or unwilling) to take enforcement action.
- o_____________o 8y agoDamn, that's amazing. I would imagine that the city could be convinced by forecasting the money they would bring in on fines. How does that system work for honking between intersections?
- chillacy 8y agoGood question, I wasn't able to find details, just some basics: https://radiichina.com/beijing-installs-car-horn-detectors-to-battle-noise-pollution/ https://radiichina.com/beijing-installs-car-horn-detectors-t... https://www.shine.cn/archive/district/jing-an/Crackdown-on-horn-cacophony/shdaily.shtml https://www.shine.cn/archive/district/jing-an/Crackdown-on-h...
- gregwtmtno 8y agoI can't read the article (I really should subscribe) but I think people seriously underestimate the positive effects moving to electric cars will have on city livability and city property values. Because we're all born into a world where engine particulates are ubiquitous, I think we're missing how much of an improvement clean air would be.
- jaggederest 8y agoBlack carbon from diesel, train, and ship exhaust is incredibly toxic. I think it's going to be the equivalent of lead, in the future.
- ams6110 8y agoNot even close. Lead does irreversible brain and organ damage to developing children. Carbon, at worst, may increase your chances for respiratory disease or lung cancer.
- jaggederest 8y agoNanoscale carbon, as present in exhaust, can migrate far beyond the pulmonary system into the heart, liver, brain, and even into developing fetuses and the placenta. There's significant evidence that it causes beta-amyloid accumulation in the brain, as well as macrophage migration and astrocyte inflammation. There's a lot of evidence that it's not just the current generation, it's the future generations after the soot exposure ends that are harmed if there is in-utero exposure.
- hollerith 8y agoNo at worst it increases whole-body inflammation.
- exxr 8y agoThis lecture is quite a good one for the health effects of diesel nanoparticles https://youtu.be/aXEal4YJsOU https://youtu.be/aXEal4YJsOU
- Zanni 8y agoWe don't have that law in Hawaii, unfortunately. I used to love to eat at a local Quiznos which had outdoor seating, but was located next to a supermarket. People would park there cars five feet from where I was eating and let them idle for 20-30 minutes while they sort out their grocery list, or while one person runs inside to shop and the other waits. Made me crazy--the noise, the stink. I stopped eating their, and apparently everyone else did too, as they went out of business.
- grahamburger 8y agoQuiznos have been going out of business everywhere for several years. I think this dead rat commercial was the beginning of the end: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZrks-BPeLQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZrks-BPeLQ (I'm sure the exhaust didn't help though!)
- tomxor 8y agoThis absolutely pisses me off too, especially when it's right outside my home because it's also noise pollution. I don't understand these people... do they go home and just leave taps running while fiddling with their phones? there is no good reason to do this unless you are in an extremely cold environment.
- jimmaswell 8y agoCharging a phone, air conditioning (especially if a dog or kids are in the car), letting people in the car listen to the radio without draining the battery, just wanting to sit in there, lots of good reasons.
- hfdgiutdryg 8y agoletting people in the car listen to the radio without draining the battery Unless you've got a booming system with several large subwoofers, you aren't going to excessively drain your battery by listening to the radio with the ignition in the accessory position. For A/C, take the kids inside. For dogs, park in shade and get an accessory window fan. On all but the hottest days (L.A., Phoenix, and similar places excepted) they'll be quite comfortable.
- nathancahill 8y agoHmm, that's just not true at all. Don't leave your pups in the car. They won't be comfortable, they'll be dead.
- jimmaswell 8y agoIf the windows are open then there's no greenhouse effect going on, so it wouldn't be any worse than if you were walking them. Air conditioning is still a lot better.
- ummonk 8y agoMost cars don’t have windshields and rear windows that open.
- brundolf 8y agoIf only they could enforce against those ridiculous smoke-stacks people install on their trucks. Here in Texas - even in Austin - I probably see one or two a week: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2014/07/rolling_coal_conservatives_who_show_their_annoyance_with_liberals_obama.html http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/201... Every time I see one, I just want to drop a softball-sized lump of silly-putty down there.
- _bxg1 8y agoUpdate: apparently it is more-or-less illegal. Guess I'll start reporting it when I see it.
- cellularmitosis 8y agoAre you complaining about the chrome exhaust stacks, or about modifying the engine to purposefully produce lots of black smoke? At least in Denver, you can report the black smoke: https://denver.cbslocal.com/2017/10/18/sheriffs-office-asks-public-to-report-drivers-rolling-coal/ https://denver.cbslocal.com/2017/10/18/sheriffs-office-asks-...
- _bxg1 8y agoGenerally I assumed they went hand-in-hand, but maybe that's not always the case.
- VectorLock 8y agoWhat if more laws had monetarily incentivized vigilanteism?
- mmirate 8y agoThen more people would correctly point out the parallels with a variety of dystopias, including nonfictional examples.
- jimmaswell 8y agoThis is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. 3 minutes? A $350 fine? Are you kidding me? I spend longer than that idling in a fast food parking lot eating my food. How do any judges sleep at night enforcing this? I'm not going to sit in a hot/freezing car in traffic if I can help it by running the climate control inside for a while first (definitely takes more than 3 minutes, or especially that particularly ridiculous 1 minute in school zones). I guess these people would prefer my dog suffer in the heat instead of sitting in air conditioning for 5 minutes while I get something out of a gas station. More and more reason I never want anything to do with NYC. The goal of protecting the environment is so that it can better serve us in the future. The environment is not an end in itself. Idling regulations are far too great of an inconvenience compared to the tiny benefit. I hope this war on cars is just a fad.
- hfdgiutdryg 8y agoI spend longer than that idling in a fast food parking lot eating my food. That's weird. Why not just go inside to eat? As for the dogs, I'm sure the judges are happy to make exceptions for exceptional circumstances. It sounds like the law is targeted at the largest groups of offenders: commercial vehicles idling unnecessarily, and parents who (bizarrely, IMO) insist on waiting in a long line of cars to pick up their kid after school.
- jimmaswell 8y agoBecause it's easier to just eat in a parking space after the drive thru than to take the food inside. Lots of people do it. McDonalds even has designated spots for this. I also just find it a lot nicer than going inside - I'm in my own space, radio's there, climate control is how I like it, dog's with me in the passenger seat, and when I'm done I can just immediately go.
- alistairSH 8y agoYou know the radio will work with the engine off, right? And the fan too! If the car is already warm/cold, the fan will move enough air to keep the car comfortable on all the but hottest/coldest days.
- neuralRiot 8y agoThis sounds a bit stupid, drivers will wander instead that creates more emissions than idling.
- olliej 8y agoWell I certainly misread that title. I literally thought someone had weaponised (or whatever Batman like thing) exhaust.
- clumsysmurf 8y agoThis dovetails nicely with a new study from Canada, which found 25% cars produce 90% pollution. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/04/150421105344.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/04/150421105344.h... "The study made on-the-spot measurements of 100,000 vehicles as they drove past air-sampling probes of the main laboratory on College Street, one of Toronto's many major roadways." Also interesting was their findings of how pollution from roads permeates the surround areas, and the complex ways pollution from multiple roads produces additive exposure.
- oppositelock 8y agoWhat about refrigerated diesel trucks? When the diesel engine turns off, the cooling turns off. Has this tattletale also considered the horrendous emissions of engines whose catalysts cool down? Idling is sometimes cleaner, sometimes dirtier, this kind of blanket enforcement makes no sense to me. Where I live in CA, people object to diesel idling more due to noise than anything else.
- hollerith 8y agoThe refrigerator is usually powered by a separate engine mounted high on the front of the trailer.
- icebraining 8y agoIt's not a blanket ban; there's an exception if the engine is being used to operate a processing device. A refrigerator probably fits that case.
- nimbius 8y ago+1 for this guy. as an engine mechanic my third most common question is "can you get my car to pass a smog check??" And the answer is usually, "maybe." So many cars are just behind on the maintenance that one expensive checkup is all it takes before they pass and become slightly less noxious on the road. The biggest, most infuriating thing for me however is professional drivers / truckers that insist upon idling because "WELL the sticker says its CALIFORNIA clean idle certified!" That doesnt mean people wont hate you for filling the streets with diesel fumes while you finish your lunch.
- 1996 8y agoFor a programmer, the answer should be "always", because smog check in the US is just self reported car diagnostics.
- function_seven 8y agoVaries by state. In California, we put the car up on a dynonometer and run it through various speeds and engine RPMs, while measuring the tailpipe emissions. Gas cap is checked to ensure good seal, and the MIL (Check Engine light) is tested to make sure it both works, and is off.
- oliveshell 8y ago...except in California, to which the parent comment is clearly referring; there, emissions testing equipment is attached to your vehicle and particulate output measured.
- gtdawg 8y agoThe other responses to this post may be thinking of CA vehicles year 1999 and older which require tailpipe measurements and dyno loading. Newer vehicles usually only require the OBDII review and they will double check codes haven't been cleared recently and all sensors are in spec. No dyno or tailpipe measurements are required in CA on year 2000 and newer. This is why smog shops offer $20-$40 for year 2000 and newer and $70+ for 1999 and older. It's more human time intensive to test year 1999 and older.
- cornellwright 8y agoWhile I agree with the objective - that cars/trucks should shutdown instead of idling, I have to wonder, do we really want to a society where people are paid to report their neighbors? Sure it seems like this guy is doing everything properly (documenting real cases of random idling), but what happens when people start using things like this for harassment/revenge, fabricating idling cases (similar to the Uber vomit cleanup scam), and generally making a living off getting people fined. Compare this to a trained law enforcement officer who doesn't personally make money on every fine who will take the whole situation into account, rather than just trying to make a buck. This make work out fine at this small scale, but we should be cautious when it comes to creating untrained citizen bounty hunters.
- Reason077 8y ago"I have to wonder, do we really want to a society where people are paid to report their neighbors?" It's sad, but I think we need do need this. Too many people are uncaring and ignorant, and will behave badly if they don't think there are consequences. We shouldn't just turn a blind eye to anti-social behavior.
- jimmaswell 8y agoI'd call reporting idling the anti-social behavior. Snitching on someone breaking an unjust law to save a meaningless amount of emissions.
- monochromatic 8y agoUnjust??
- jimmaswell 8y agoYes, it's unjust to not allow people to idle their cars. It's a minuscule portion of total emissions that's not worth the tradeoff of convenience.
- pavel_lishin 8y ago
- air7 8y agoIs a bounty for reporting an offense a common thing in the US (or elsewhere)? I've never heard of it.
- dghughes 8y ago>...showing a video he’d taken with his phone of a concrete truck near the corner of William and Fulton Streets. A truck carrying concrete has to keep the drum rotating to keep the concrete mixed. To do that it has to have its engine running.
- cup-of-tea 8y agoYes but they shouldn't be doing it near people's houses. Concrete mixers are supposed to go directly to the construction site and deposit their load on time.
- YeGoblynQueenne 8y agoI mean, I don't even get why people just idle their cars like that. I've been told it's to keep the air conditioning on, but I see people idling with their windows rolled down, in the summer and winter alike. I've been told it's to play the radio, but most of the time I can't hear any radio and in any case, come on- you got a phone right? There's no good reason that applies in most situations and that makes it even harder to understand. Because it means people just ...don't turn their engine off when they're only stopped for a while. Because. I don't know. It costs action points?
- IshKebab 8y agoLaziness and anxiety about starting it again quickly.
- blattimwind 8y ago> I don't know. The answer is quite simple: They're bad drivers.
- mclehman 8y ago>I've been told it's to play the radio Is it common for the car to need to be running to listen to the radio?
- mwarkentin 8y agoNot sure if sarcasm, but no.
- mnm1 8y agoSounds like a problem that would easily be resolved by federal regulations that would turn an engine off after three minutes automatically unless some other switch, ideally obscured or hidden behind a ui, is pressed (has to be pressed each time the engine is started). Seems like a simple solution, like lights that turn off with the engine but like that advancement, it'll probably take decades to standardize without proper federal regulation.
- exxr 8y agoIf anyone wants to learn more about the health effects of diesel exhaust, beyond the oft publicized "lung cancer" risk, this is a very detailed lecture on the topic from a guy at WWU. https://youtu.be/aXEal4YJsOU https://youtu.be/aXEal4YJsOU