21 ms·

The Allure of Small Towns for Big City Freelancers

274 points by wallflower 8y ago

davidw 8y ago
Very interested in this. I'd love to partner up with some people to find a way to be financially involved in this trend. There are tons of cool little towns out there in some amazing places.
sien 8y ago
Truckee looks pretty great for this sort of thing. It's only 35 minutes drive from Reno too. So getting out and getting fancier food or whatever is very much doable for an evening. It's interesting that more people don't move to places like this. Perhaps the difficulty of obtaining well paid work is the hard part.
- barry-cotter 8y ago
  As more and more skilled work moves online and becomes disintermediated we’ll see more of that. I’m guessing that upwork and similar websites are the start of that though they still have the problem that they’re a market for lemons, people who are good learn relatively quickly they can get better pay outside them. Software is probably the leading edge of the sectors that lots of knowledge work will eventually follow. You have marketplaces like instapainting.com for art work. I’m sure there are others and if there aren’t it’s an opportunity some software entrepreneurs will exploit.
- jmspring 8y ago
  Purchasing a house in Truckee, while not Palo Alto expensive, still isn’t cheap. There are some decent restaurants there. Reno can actually be surprising when it comes to food choices. If one relies on work in the Bay Area, the remoteness can add a bit of anxiety. Driving to the Bay Area can also be a drag.
- stevehawk 8y ago
  For tech people you almost /have/ to find remote work. We moved to a remote part of Indiana for my wife's job and the only local tech job I've found offered 1 week vacation and less money than I made out of college 15 years ago. There are perks like having a 4500sq ft home on almost 2 aces of land for a mortgage much smaller than what I see a studio rent for in SF. On the other hand there's only a couple of truly good restaurants in the area, the rest is low end fast food (McDs and the like). The nearest Chipotle, for instance, is 45 minutes away. And the night scene.. it ends around 10pm.
  - lkCbdBclE 8y ago
    The first town mentioned in the article is Yellow Springs, OH. That's very close to Dayton and Springfield, two decently sized cities. On top of that's it's about an hour away from Columbus and Cincinnati, both of which have tons of nightlife, restaurants and competitive tech jobs.
    - stevehawk 8y ago
      But how many people long for "the small town" just to commute 2+ hours a day?
      - drdrey 8y ago
        Some people commute 2+ hours in the Bay Area too
    - adam_albrecht 8y ago
      Yellow Springs is actually a neat little town on its own, with several good restaurants and coffee shops and stores. It has a reputation as sort of a hippie town. And Dave Chappelle lives there. Probably not a lot of nightlife or jobs, though.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- claydavisss 8y ago
  Truckee is relatively expensive given the demand for second homes for wealthy coastal types. Why not just cross the border? Incline Village is great and you avoid CA taxes
- deedubaya 8y ago
  I live in a ski resort and work remotely in tech. While it has its upsides, which are obvious, there are some downsides. Winters can feel long. Like 9 months long. The “slack” season between spring snow melting and summer can feel never ending. Same with fall; too cold to do much, but no snow. Town is empty, businesses shut down and shorten hours. It’s easy to get feel isolated. It’s easy to not see much sun shine for days or weeks at a time. January and February are generally great, but tourists can get annoying. Same with July and August. 4/12 would recommend.
adam-a 8y ago
I can see the same thing happening over here in the UK. Me and my partner left London to move to a smaller city Scotland, we now pay 60% of the rent for a place that's twice as big. I still freelance for clients in London and can funnel the extra money into side projects and savings. We actually have a realistic chance of buying a house in the next couple of years too! One thing I wonder, having seen a few articles recently about people leaving big cities[1], is whether this is a new trend or simply the same thing that happens every generation as people grow older and their priorities change? [1]: https://www.theguardian.com/money/2018/jun/28/london-property-prices-blamed-for-record-exodus https://www.theguardian.com/money/2018/jun/28/london-propert...
- TomMarius 8y ago
  > One thing I wonder, having seen a few articles recently about people leaving big cities[1], is whether this is a new trend or simply the same thing that happens every generation as people grow older and their priorities change? I don't think so - not in general. I think it largely depends on the economical situation. My grandparents (and with them many others) have done the exact opposite because it made economical sense back then.
- tylerjwilk00 8y ago
  I think on a long enough time scale it is a cycle. Just like the market booms and busts the flow of people oscillates to and fro in the market of places to live.
mrhappyunhappy 8y ago
I lived in Irvine CA, my studio rent was 1650 one of the cheaper ones in the complex. Wife and I made combined 110k a year and all we had enough for was to pay living expenses when figure in everything else. Then I lost my job and had to pick up freelancing as nobody else was hiring - I didn’t have enough experience in the field I wanted to work in. Moved to Vancouver WA and was able to afford more while getting better freelance gigs. Now I live in rural Japan where a 3 br house costs $500 to rent. I still freelance and have grown my career significantly- with ability to pull over 100k if I wanted to, except now I work less since I want to spend more time with family. Even the money I’m making now, while far far less than many people here, goes a long way. Meanwhile this has enabled me to spend 50% of my time to work on side projects. I am hoping some of them pan out for recurring income so I can drop wage slavery forever. Big cities are fun and all when you are younger. Spend all your money on rent - no problem at that age. Then you get to a point when it all sounds too absurd and you want a lawn, a place to watch your kids play somewhere to slow the hell down from life in the fast lane.
- HoochieKoo 8y ago
  Rural Japan? Wow, that must be amazingly different from the U.S. I’ve often thought about offering my services to different countries to experience what it’s like living there.
- ewwhite 8y ago
  I feel like we're missing a lot of detail between Vancouver, WA and how you ended up in rural Japan... Can you fill some of that in? How did you end up there?
  - mrhappyunhappy 8y ago
    My wife is Japanese. We were expecting our first and made a conscious decision to move. Most of my clients now are still from US, although I have and occasionally still work with agencies in other English speaking countries.
austincheney 8y ago
At some point I would like to continue to be a developer but live in some place like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pampa,_Texas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pampa,_Texas It has a feel of utter isolation but the town is big enough that it isn't quite like living in Antarctica.
ozim 8y ago
It is perfectly reasonable. But you still have to have sales or other good contact on the ground in big city. Because if in walking distance you have 100 customers you can maintain connection with people working there. If you will move to small town where you don't have customers and you have to rely on your contacts over the internet then you might get burned when your contacts switch jobs or whatever happens.
jasonkester 8y ago
This idea works really well for remote developers. I live in the tiny, 1,000 person, village of Arbonne-la-Foret, smack dab in the middle of nowhere, France. That is, unless you're a rock climber, in which case it's exactly in the center of the largest concentration of fantastic bouldering on the planet. American companies are happy to pay me the same to work from here as from that little Ohio town in the article, or from the Bay Area. I think the strategy to follow if you're in tech these days is to: 1. figure out the thing you like to do most in life, 2. find the best place in the world to do that thing, 3. move there and, 4. contract remotely for a company based in the San Francisco Bay Area. There is good internet everywhere. I'm finding less and less reason why anybody who could would ever want to work in an office.
- patkai 8y ago
  Sorry to nitpick but that "smack dab in the middle of nowhere" is 40 miles from Paris :) Anyway, it is very surprising that freelancing and remote work are taking off so slowly. At the company where I do remote freelance work I think less than 10% are freelancers and less than half of those are remote, even if the opportunity exists for almost everyone, even employees could switch to a freelance contract.
  - TomK32 8y ago
    France is a central-governed country (in contrast to Germany), so everything outside Paris is a smack dab in the middle of nowhere.
  - kowdermeister 8y ago
    We (jokingly) call everything outside the inner ring of Budapest countryside :)
    - pandler 8y ago
      Just like everything north of New York City is “upstate”.
- abrichr 8y ago
wayanon 8y ago
An unwelcome side effect is that incoming city dwellers can push up prices for people already in these small towns who don’t have the option to relocate.
- claydavisss 8y ago
  This could be said about Sunnyvale, Cupertino, Santa Clara also...
- dahdum 8y ago
  It's a welcome side effect for local business and city services, as well as helping smooth out geographical income inequality. Small towns usually have short commutes, so it's not the same type of issue as places like Denver.
- jseliger 8y ago
  That is typically an issue with zoning, not people moving there: https://www.vox.com/cards/affordable-housing-explained/what-is-zoning-euclidian-form-based-and-other-kinds https://www.vox.com/cards/affordable-housing-explained/what-.... Even most small towns prevent reasonably-priced housing via height minimums, lot setbacks, and parking minimums. The cost of housing is set by supply and demand; allow supply to increase and prices will moderate.
- UncleEntity 8y ago
  Or...people wanting to buy up their homes in "this little dead-end town" allow them the opportunity to fulfil their dreams of Big City Life. Though I think that's mostly a cop-out, people always blame the newcomers for all the problems -- can't count how many times I heard "Californians are driving up housing prices" during the real estate boom in the aughts. Now it's "the Chinese are driving up housing prices" though I often hear it's still the Californians' fault.
claydavisss 8y ago
Remote work is fantastic if you are willing to make some sacrifices. The biggest sacrifice is career advancement. I personally don't care because I am considered an older worker...but as a remote employee, it can be more difficult to advance into management etc. I also tend to let others "win" if I have any sort of workplace conflict. Since I am not in the office, I need to make sure no one has cause to talk negatively about me. Everything else is a positive. I can literally live wherever I want. I have no "commute". I get paid a decent Bay Area wage that is considered very high by local standards. I do not pay CA taxes. Many companies are still hesitant to embrace remote work but that is changing. My guess is in twenty years, the remote worker will have higher life satisfaction: much more likely to own a home, much more likely to be able to start a family etc etc.
- drdrey 8y ago
  I cringe a little when I hear "advance into management". Management is an entirely different job, not something that is an upgrade over an individual contributor role.
  - alexgmcm 8y ago
    I agree but sadly the salary often is an upgrade and there are few alternative routes for advancement.
- irl_zebra 8y ago
  Agree. I have a job and you can either be remote or onsite. I am well on the way to c-suite roles partially because I choose to be on-site, and of course the necessary hard work. We don't typically make someone COO or Director of Engineering if they're remote for many reasons. Another reason to eschew remote is impact. Much easier to have impact and do real, meaningful work from onsite where one can convince people of things and drove companies in certain directions. Imagine Steve Jobs as a remote employee. Maybe this is cynical, but remote is great if all you want from life is to be well paid and code. For many, there's much more.
  - phil21 8y ago
baybal2 8y ago
Anybody ever though about downshifting to 3rd world countries in line of this? I myself work for a SZ based company, moved there from Canada. During production run times I'm in Shenzhen, and the rest of the time I'm stationed in a random "developing country" trying to "play a big man," fraternise with local business and political establishments, trying to win bets. We have few Americans in the company, all of them are from "flyover" states. They all say China is a way better bet in moving up the ladder for them than Silicon Valley.
- notmything 8y ago
  A friend of mine moved to the Philippines with her husband (both Australian) to set up an offshore development shop doing NetSute ERP implementations for Australian NetSuite customers (usually mid-market retailers or manufactures). She’s been there for 4 years now so it must be going well - her house is amazing there too.
- Const-me 8y ago
  > Anybody ever though about downshifting to 3rd world countries in line of this? Many 3rd world countries have issues with government-provided infrastructure: security, healthcare, schools, etc. But there’re quite a lot of 1st & 2nd world countries with reasonable cost of living but good quality of life. Montenegro’s one of them (that’s where I currently live) but there’re more, e.g. most countries in Eastern or Southern Europe have similar qualities.
growlist 8y ago
My partner and I are making this move soon - we should go from a two bedroom terraced house to a good four bedroom with a nice garden, along with quieter roads, less crime, pollution and all the rest of it. In the absence of a decent regional policy I'd say we are doing our bit as two educated professionals to spread the wealth! I hate having to be part of this system and resisted as long as I could, but if you don't own property in the UK you are virtually a non-person in some senses.
- GordonS 8y ago
  > if you don't own property in the UK you are virtually a non-person in some senses I'm a property-owner in the UK. Could you explain a bit about what you mean by this comment? I understand that there is a strong desire to own a property, even if most people can't say exactly why that is, but I don't understand the 'non-person' comment at all.
  - growlist 8y ago
    Landlords can hike the rent unfairly at the end of the rental period, kick you out to sell, and the mandatory term is short. Also, there are plenty of circles where lack of property ownership equals social death. Additionally missing out on rising property values can, due to increasingly inadequate pension provision, leave you far poorer in retirement, and even have a knock on effect on your offspring given the importance of the bank of mum and dad for younger buyers. I'd argue that all in all not owning property can hugely affect your life chances here in the UK. You just have to watch one of the TV shows about high court bailiffs or evictions etc. to see what things are like at the sharp end for renters. Do you think I am exaggerating? In some ways I see the UK as a semi-feudal state. Monarchy, rigid class system, concentration of land ownership in few hands (even worse in Scotland than England), property law that exploits the renter, etc.
    - GordonS 8y ago
      > there are plenty of circles where lack of property ownership equals social death I'm not sure what you mean; I can't imagine any circle where anyone would care either way. > You just have to watch one of the TV shows about high court bailiffs or evictions etc. to see what things are like at the sharp end for renters. Sorry, I make a point of not watching trash on Channel 5 ;) > Do you think I am exaggerating? No, I didn't say or even suggest that - I'm honestly just trying to understand what you mean. Also, you made a good point regarding retirement.
tylerjwilk00 8y ago
Finally - A positive perspective on small town living. When I read the stories of big city lifestyles I'm amazed so many people opt-in to it. Traffic, noise, concrete everywhere. Yuck - but to each their own. I'll take my country life as a remote worker going on 8 years. Trees, forest, wildlife, fresh air, backyards. 5 minutes walk or 1 minute drive to a shop for groceries, hardware, lumber, restaurants, kid parks. Everyone knows each other. Very tight knit community. Don't even get me started on cost of living differences. I'll never leave. Remote work really levels the playing field and unlocks a lot of potential for rural and small towns. All happening at a time when the staple of resource extraction is declining but global connectivity is increasing. There may be a bright future for small towns yet.
- 1337biz 8y ago
  > Everyone knows each other. Very tight knit community. That's my main problem with it. Grew up in a small city and this was exactly the case. In a big city I can pick the people I want to deal with, in a small town this is inpossible without creating tensions.
  - tylerjwilk00 8y ago
    I totally grok the desire for anon when living in a small town especially when I was younger. There is a social pressure that can be suffocating. I can't imagine the pressures of village or tribe life thousands of years ago. As I got older and relaxed this mostly went away. Such is life.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - lotsofpulp 8y ago
      It’s easy to be relaxed when the financial pressures have been lifted. But if you need your community to survive (e.g. LGBT in conservative small towns), that’s not fixable.
- 3pt14159 8y ago
legohead 8y ago
I moved to CA not for work, but family. There was nothing to do in my home state in the south, and I lived in the capital. In CA I have endless opportunities, events, family activities, and access to a huge variety of landscapes. Having both the ocean and mountains within easy reach is a big advantage. Food is also so much better out here. And then the people -- it's nice to live around people who think and feel the same way. I sometimes think through moving back, or somewhere else with low cost of living, but I'm not willing to give everything up.
- noelwelsh 8y ago
  I agree. Having lived in a big cities and little villages I much prefer the big city. However I think the mid-size city offers the best tradeoff between cost-of-living, ease of getting around, and stuff to do. It will have all the common activities and, if you choose the right city, the niche interests as well.
- christophilus 8y ago
  I've lived on the west coast and in the south (where I currently am). The west coast has what you say, but there are spots here in the south that are pretty close, and way less expensive. I'm a 3 hour drive from the ocean, 30 minutes from decent mountain hikes (not as good as the Cascades, but decent). The food here is not as varied as Seattle. To get the same variety, I have to hop in the car and head up to Ashville, down to Atlanta, or 30 minutes into Greenville (whose food scene is improving). That said, I'm currently in walking distance of a great Thai place, a really good microbrewery, a great farm-to-table place, a great Mexican place, a really good seafood place... So, that's good enough for me. Politically, this is a conservative place, but not as much a you'd think, and Ashville, which is ~1 hour away, is as liberal as Seattle, I'd wager. So, you can definitely find a nice group of folks who think the way you do, if you don't feel like hanging out with a more diverse group.
  - mmt 8y ago
    > I'm a 3 hour drive from the ocean I'm going to go out on a limb and say that this would be a dealbreak for anyone for whom ocean access is even moderately important. Even the greater Portland, OR area being 2 hours away (assuming no traffic, which is never a safe assumption for those routes) was a big enough impediment to a friend of mine who is a CA expat there, that he considers casual day trips out of the question. > not as good as the Cascades, but decent > food here is not as varied as Seattle Ultimately, I think this is the big takeaway.. there are places that may be way less expensive, as you say, but many amenities (for lack of a better term) are only kinda-sorta comparable if one squints hard enough. If those amenities are central to ones lifestyle and perception of quality of life, that approximation isn't going to cut it, no matter how cheap it is. Some people may well overestimate the importance of such amenities, but others may underestimate them because they take them for granted, if they've lived in certain West Coast cities long enough.
keiferski 8y ago
I recently asked this very question on HN and got some fantastic answers: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17522160 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17522160
puranjay 8y ago
To people who have or are doing this, does the fact that you're not in the office hamper your career prospects? Do you risk pigeonholing yourself as a "skilled worker" and not "management material" - should you want to move up the ranks?
- mcjiggerlog 8y ago
  Probably, but I am completely fine with that. I don't want to work in management and don't see that as harming my career.
- mooreds 8y ago
  Depends on the kind of company and whether they are remote friendly or remote only.
mirimir 8y ago
That's what I did, some years ago, as a consultant. Once I had enough steady clients, I moved to a small town, where living expenses were much lower. However, I did pick a college town, not very far from interstates, Amtrak and a regional airport. So meeting clients hasn't been a huge hassle. And there are interesting communities, including a maker space. And damn, the vibe is amazing. As much as I come off online as a privacy extremist, I love the intimacy. Neighbors care about each other. There's no need to lock your doors. Neighbors ask about strange vehicles and people. They know you at the post office. I've received mail addressed to just name, city, state and postal code. But of course, I never talk about Mirimir etc there ;)
- jseliger 8y ago
  That's what I did, some years ago, as a consultant. Once I had enough steady clients, I moved to a small town, where living expenses were much lower. I'm living in NYC and looking into something similar. The rent is absurd and the vast majority of the work I do is conducted electronically. I read this article and was like, "Very close to my reaction." I don't want to move to a really small town, but somewhere like Nashville or Columbus, OH is appealing.
  - gk1 8y ago
    I moved from Brooklyn to Baltimore five years ago, without changing my income. It meant an instant boost to my standard of living, as I was able to get a new luxury apartment in a nice neighborhood for the same rent as my infested Brooklyn studio in a "transitioning" neighborhood. There are so many mid-size, low-cost-of-living, vibrant cities to choose from. Baltimore, Pittsburg, Columbus, Cincinnati, Charleston, New Orleans, Nashville, Louisville, ... And these days they all have great co-working spaces.
    - cageface 8y ago
      If I did ever move back to the US I think I'd pick one of these second tier cities too. Small town living is just too provincial for me but I think you get a lot of the upsides of living in NYC or LA or SF without a lot of the downsides when you live in a place like Pittsburg. Not to mention that cities like NYC or LA are so expensive and so gentrified now that artists and other creative people can't afford to live there anymore so they're a lot less interesting than they were 20 years ago anyway. There's a lot of really creative and offbeat electronic music coming out of the American Midwest right now for example.
alkonaut 8y ago
I remote from a location less than 1h commute from a big city. Means I can have a big lawn with a house on it and swim 5 minutes walk from it. But I can also get all the stuff you only find in bigger cities like a large selection of restaurants, concerts etc. The downside is that it’s not small town cheap, but it’s definitely half the cost of living just half as far from the city or in the city proper.
ivm 8y ago
Six years ago our remotely working family was choosing between Canada and Chile (these countries have freelancer-friendly immigration[1]). After looking at the costs of life and real estate in Canada, Chile won and we moved to a small southern city[2]. It is walkable, green, full of various stores and services but still small enough to occasionally run into your friends in the downtown. I feel more at home here than in St. Petersburg where I've spent most of my life. We live very comfortably here for less than $2k/mo for two people and expect to build a house for less than $150k (including half a hectare of land that we have bought already). I think it's quite easy to retire early in these conditions even on a moderate remote income ($50-60k). Also, Chilean personal income taxes are the lowest in the OECD[3]. [1]: https://qotoqot.com/blog/best-countries/ https://qotoqot.com/blog/best-countries/ [2]: https://valdiviaguide.com/ https://valdiviaguide.com/ [3]: http://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/taxing-wages-chile.pdf http://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/taxing-wages-chile.pdf
- davidw 8y ago
  Cool! Chile looks like an interesting country - you can pick a climate that suits your fancy... but in practice, how does that work out? Are there differences (besides the weather) between north and south? Did you speak Spanish when you went? Have you written about your experiences?
  - ivm 8y ago
    When we were moving here, I thought we would stay only for 6-7 years to get a better passport but now I just don't want to leave. The southern Chilean culture suits me perfectly: there's no tension in the air (especially compared to the US or Russia) and most people are a bit reserved but kind to each other. It's somewhat different in the central regions because of the population density and competitiveness but still great in my opinion. Neither of us spoke Spanish and it was tough in the first year because we had little time to practice. Overall Spanish acquisition goes quite slowly because we work from home and have met a lot of English-speaking friends but I got to the conversational level in the third year. It's not a hard language after all. I don't have an immigrant's blog but I made the "Valdivia Guide" site from the previous comment.
SteveGerencser 8y ago
I've always thought that people misunderstood the power of remote working. The power is that it lets you live where you want to live while also letting you do the work that you want to regardless of where either is. We love country life. We live in a village of less than 400 people on 100 acres of land yet I work internationally in marketing and my wife is an engineer with a major aerospace company. Some of my best friends also have jobs that allow them to live in the city they want to live (Tampa area) while working for companies in locations that they have no desire to live in (SF Bay area). I've always felt that remote working was all about making the connection between the desired career and desired lifestyle where in the past if you wanted to work for major firm X you had to live THERE.
- sanderjd 8y ago
  Isn't this exactly what people understand the power of remote work to be? Sadly, most firms still don't think the (real or perceived) loss of productivity is a good deal for them, even if it is for their employees.
  - SteveGerencser 8y ago
    Based on my experience it isn't. Most people full stop at 'work from home' but never take the next step toward live how I want to live while working how I want to work. They have their job, convince their boss to let them work from home, then never actually do anything other than work in their PJs. ;)
    - sanderjd 8y ago
      Maybe staying where they are but working in their PJs is how they want to live!
- cardern 8y ago
  I don't think that most people misunderstand the power of remote working. I work from home 99% of the time, but it is nice having the flexibility to go into the office when necessary. People also develop networks (professional and personal) during the time it might take to turn something into a remote opportunity and it is hard to separate from that.
humanrebar 8y ago
A huge upside for small town living is livability for people with disabilities. It's a major reason, for example, that people like to retire to smaller towns. It's also why it is expensive to rear more than a couple small kids in a major urban area, assuming you can consider babies and toddlers (temporarily) less-than-able human beings. It varies from big city to big city, but older areas of cities are usually grandfathered out of ADA regulations that require wider doors, accessibility ramps, elevators, etc. Parking at all in most cities is atrocious, let alone handicap parking with extra room to unload a wheelchair. Wide aisles are a waste of space in dense urban areas but needed if you need to get a wheelchair to the only open table in the back of the room. Shoving your way on to a crowded train car is distasteful when young and healthy but a deal breaker for many. See also availability of handicap bathroom stalls. The list goes on. I was recently at a museum in a small city and was struck with how many visitors had significant disabilities of various kinds. For all the diversity we come to expect from large cities, this kind of diversity is probably lacking.
- darpa_escapee 8y ago
  I've always been under the impression that small towns aren't accessible from an aging and disabled perspective. Even the smallest tasks require a car and there's little to no public transportation. Whereas in cities, you might only have to go to the corner to grab necessities or get medication from your pharmacy. I've worked with Meals on Wheels in suburban areas. Often, if the elderly didn't live in a senior community/nursing home or didn't have family nearby, they barely left home because they physically, or legally, couldn't drive. That means they don't see doctors when they need to, and lacked food, medication and basic necessities. Taxis exist, but they're relatively expensive if you're retired and living off of Social Security.
rpvnwnkl 8y ago
There’s a perk for the small towns, too: they get “tech money” without having to court a “tech industry”. This brings money into the community that would otherwise be left outside it. I see remote workers as an equalizer / booster for communities that have a small economy with little outside interaction with the larger economy. I’m thinking of small rural towns, groups of 2,000 ppl or fewer that are geographically isolated.
xivzgrev 8y ago
A friens of mine was once working with a developer who charged SF market rates but lived somewhere in Idaho. Part of me wishes for that, how much he must be cash flowing. Also i find it ironic that despite all our advances in technology most tech companies insist on people working in office.
taurath 8y ago
Simple fact is I think many many people would look for better places to live if they could afford the lifestyle they wanted there. That’s why so many of my friends have moved from the Bay Area to Seattle and then to Colorado and sometimes to Portland now. Main downside of moving to a small town if you’re LGBT or queer is that you’re always going to be the odd one out - at the very least you won’t have much of a dating pool.
strooper 8y ago
The idea, "work from anywhere", helped me leave big, dirty, over crowded, complicated city for a small, clean, friendly one about four years ago. From my experience- the upsides are- relaxed lifestyle, friendly environment. The downsides are- very slow people all around makes you significantly slower, significantly less competitive work attitude and very few like minded people around.
newbalance 8y ago
Great to hear about the happy coexistence of creatives and small town communities. A few of the takeaways for me: - General rule, a city can support 1 creative for every 1,000 people - First mover advantage: small towns see creatives as novelty and are willing to assist. - Benefits creatives moving to small town, but with an existing "big city" network - Lowered cost of living means increased budgets for passion projects and less team dedicated to paid, professional work
rainbowmverse 8y ago
Small towns get worse the further you are from the default. For example, dating here is terrible. All the men are assholes or very deep in the closet. The women are super religious. Think bible quotes as Tinder profiles. And I don't mean "their bios have a lot about religion in them." I mean that's their whole profile. A bible quote. And I doubt many gender non-comforming people in my age range are out about it. There is no way I'm taking my queer ass to one of the three dive bars to do it the traditional way. That's not even getting into the lack of entertainment options. This town is at least close enough to Atlanta and Athens for good internet options and reasonable support for LGBT+ people in government. They had updated marriage licenses ready before the SCOTUS ruling. If you're a straight, white, cis dude who doesn't mind traveling to the nearest city for anything fun to do, knock yourself out. At least get a hotel paid monthly and spend some real quality time in a prospective small town first. Even if you are super default, I don't see how you could enjoy it if you're remotely intellectually curious. I'm getting out of here ASAP.
elf25 8y ago
got two houses for sale 'near nothing' but a semi major university, good high speed, and 90 minutes from a major metro with great connections to others. :-)
simonebrunozzi 8y ago
I'd love to live in a small town in Italy (where I'm from), however - to oversimplify a bit - I am afraid that the type of people that I would normally meet is not exciting or interesting as people in bigger cities (I currently live in SF).
- Puer 8y ago
  How do you define interesting or exciting? I spent a summer in Sardinia a few years ago. I didn't meet anyone who was a programmer like myself, but I met plenty of people who taught me about food, literature, philosophy, herding sheep, and how to live simply. I fully understand the appeal of SF and I know that there's more to SF than Silicon Valley, but I'd much rather live somewhere where I'm surrounded by people that I wouldn't normally meet. I feel like those environments give the greatest opportunity for growth and expansion of my personal perspective.
  - simonebrunozzi 8y ago
    I don't disagree with you - what I am trying to say is that perhaps it's difficult to know for sure that you will be happy with the type of people you will meet in a certain place. That's why it's difficult for me to even think about moving back to Italy eventually: I am not sure I will like it there.
gammateam 8y ago
> It’s harder for creative professionals to make a living in big cities. Still more desirable to be the creative in the giant loft in the city doing really interesting or weird stuff that has no discernible market value except that the opaque market valued it for millions anyway. You aren't going to have any of that in Small town, Anywheres. Just a few graphic designers that suddenly have a manageable cost of living, I can admit there is utility in that. I guess.
stared 8y ago
When cost of living is a factor, I recommend Warsaw, Poland. For me it is a sweet spot for a big enough city (collaboration, flights, etc) but neither too overwhelming (as London or New York) nor too expensive (as them or Bay Area). 5x lower rent prices than in SF (https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=Poland&city1=San+Francisco%2C+CA&city2=Warsaw https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...). Thanks to that I an spend most of my time on side projects. It wouldn't be possible in Bay Area.
jimkri 8y ago
This is something that I'm currently debating and have been thinking about a lot lately. NYC is so expensive and makes it insanely hard to save anything. Moving to say Woodstock, NY would be half the price, 2 hours away on a bus, and its beautiful. I also think that people from small towns can give you a different perceptive on ideas and life that you can't get anywhere else.

274 points by wallflower 8y ago

Very interested in this. I'd love to partner up with some people to find a way to be financially involved in this trend. There are tons of cool little towns out there in some amazing places.

sien 8y ago

Truckee looks pretty great for this sort of thing. It's only 35 minutes drive from Reno too. So getting out and getting fancier food or whatever is very much doable for an evening. It's interesting that more people don't move to places like this. Perhaps the difficulty of obtaining well paid work is the hard part.

barry-cotter 8y ago
As more and more skilled work moves online and becomes disintermediated we’ll see more of that. I’m guessing that upwork and similar websites are the start of that though they still have the problem that they’re a market for lemons, people who are good learn relatively quickly they can get better pay outside them. Software is probably the leading edge of the sectors that lots of knowledge work will eventually follow. You have marketplaces like instapainting.com for art work. I’m sure there are others and if there aren’t it’s an opportunity some software entrepreneurs will exploit.
jmspring 8y ago
Purchasing a house in Truckee, while not Palo Alto expensive, still isn’t cheap. There are some decent restaurants there. Reno can actually be surprising when it comes to food choices. If one relies on work in the Bay Area, the remoteness can add a bit of anxiety. Driving to the Bay Area can also be a drag.
stevehawk 8y ago
For tech people you almost /have/ to find remote work. We moved to a remote part of Indiana for my wife's job and the only local tech job I've found offered 1 week vacation and less money than I made out of college 15 years ago. There are perks like having a 4500sq ft home on almost 2 aces of land for a mortgage much smaller than what I see a studio rent for in SF. On the other hand there's only a couple of truly good restaurants in the area, the rest is low end fast food (McDs and the like). The nearest Chipotle, for instance, is 45 minutes away. And the night scene.. it ends around 10pm.
- lkCbdBclE 8y ago
  The first town mentioned in the article is Yellow Springs, OH. That's very close to Dayton and Springfield, two decently sized cities. On top of that's it's about an hour away from Columbus and Cincinnati, both of which have tons of nightlife, restaurants and competitive tech jobs.
  - stevehawk 8y ago
    But how many people long for "the small town" just to commute 2+ hours a day?
    - drdrey 8y ago
      Some people commute 2+ hours in the Bay Area too
  - adam_albrecht 8y ago
    Yellow Springs is actually a neat little town on its own, with several good restaurants and coffee shops and stores. It has a reputation as sort of a hippie town. And Dave Chappelle lives there. Probably not a lot of nightlife or jobs, though.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
claydavisss 8y ago
Truckee is relatively expensive given the demand for second homes for wealthy coastal types. Why not just cross the border? Incline Village is great and you avoid CA taxes
deedubaya 8y ago
I live in a ski resort and work remotely in tech. While it has its upsides, which are obvious, there are some downsides. Winters can feel long. Like 9 months long. The “slack” season between spring snow melting and summer can feel never ending. Same with fall; too cold to do much, but no snow. Town is empty, businesses shut down and shorten hours. It’s easy to get feel isolated. It’s easy to not see much sun shine for days or weeks at a time. January and February are generally great, but tourists can get annoying. Same with July and August. 4/12 would recommend.

adam-a 8y ago

I can see the same thing happening over here in the UK. Me and my partner left London to move to a smaller city Scotland, we now pay 60% of the rent for a place that's twice as big. I still freelance for clients in London and can funnel the extra money into side projects and savings. We actually have a realistic chance of buying a house in the next couple of years too! One thing I wonder, having seen a few articles recently about people leaving big cities[1], is whether this is a new trend or simply the same thing that happens every generation as people grow older and their priorities change? [1]: https://www.theguardian.com/money/2018/jun/28/london-property-prices-blamed-for-record-exodus https://www.theguardian.com/money/2018/jun/28/london-propert...

TomMarius 8y ago
> One thing I wonder, having seen a few articles recently about people leaving big cities[1], is whether this is a new trend or simply the same thing that happens every generation as people grow older and their priorities change? I don't think so - not in general. I think it largely depends on the economical situation. My grandparents (and with them many others) have done the exact opposite because it made economical sense back then.
tylerjwilk00 8y ago
I think on a long enough time scale it is a cycle. Just like the market booms and busts the flow of people oscillates to and fro in the market of places to live.

mrhappyunhappy 8y ago

I lived in Irvine CA, my studio rent was 1650 one of the cheaper ones in the complex. Wife and I made combined 110k a year and all we had enough for was to pay living expenses when figure in everything else. Then I lost my job and had to pick up freelancing as nobody else was hiring - I didn’t have enough experience in the field I wanted to work in. Moved to Vancouver WA and was able to afford more while getting better freelance gigs. Now I live in rural Japan where a 3 br house costs $500 to rent. I still freelance and have grown my career significantly- with ability to pull over 100k if I wanted to, except now I work less since I want to spend more time with family. Even the money I’m making now, while far far less than many people here, goes a long way. Meanwhile this has enabled me to spend 50% of my time to work on side projects. I am hoping some of them pan out for recurring income so I can drop wage slavery forever. Big cities are fun and all when you are younger. Spend all your money on rent - no problem at that age. Then you get to a point when it all sounds too absurd and you want a lawn, a place to watch your kids play somewhere to slow the hell down from life in the fast lane.

HoochieKoo 8y ago
Rural Japan? Wow, that must be amazingly different from the U.S. I’ve often thought about offering my services to different countries to experience what it’s like living there.
ewwhite 8y ago
I feel like we're missing a lot of detail between Vancouver, WA and how you ended up in rural Japan... Can you fill some of that in? How did you end up there?
- mrhappyunhappy 8y ago
  My wife is Japanese. We were expecting our first and made a conscious decision to move. Most of my clients now are still from US, although I have and occasionally still work with agencies in other English speaking countries.

austincheney 8y ago

At some point I would like to continue to be a developer but live in some place like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pampa,_Texas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pampa,_Texas It has a feel of utter isolation but the town is big enough that it isn't quite like living in Antarctica.

ozim 8y ago

It is perfectly reasonable. But you still have to have sales or other good contact on the ground in big city. Because if in walking distance you have 100 customers you can maintain connection with people working there. If you will move to small town where you don't have customers and you have to rely on your contacts over the internet then you might get burned when your contacts switch jobs or whatever happens.

jasonkester 8y ago

This idea works really well for remote developers. I live in the tiny, 1,000 person, village of Arbonne-la-Foret, smack dab in the middle of nowhere, France. That is, unless you're a rock climber, in which case it's exactly in the center of the largest concentration of fantastic bouldering on the planet. American companies are happy to pay me the same to work from here as from that little Ohio town in the article, or from the Bay Area. I think the strategy to follow if you're in tech these days is to: 1. figure out the thing you like to do most in life, 2. find the best place in the world to do that thing, 3. move there and, 4. contract remotely for a company based in the San Francisco Bay Area. There is good internet everywhere. I'm finding less and less reason why anybody who could would ever want to work in an office.

patkai 8y ago
Sorry to nitpick but that "smack dab in the middle of nowhere" is 40 miles from Paris :) Anyway, it is very surprising that freelancing and remote work are taking off so slowly. At the company where I do remote freelance work I think less than 10% are freelancers and less than half of those are remote, even if the opportunity exists for almost everyone, even employees could switch to a freelance contract.
- TomK32 8y ago
  France is a central-governed country (in contrast to Germany), so everything outside Paris is a smack dab in the middle of nowhere.
- kowdermeister 8y ago
  We (jokingly) call everything outside the inner ring of Budapest countryside :)
  - pandler 8y ago
    Just like everything north of New York City is “upstate”.
abrichr 8y ago

wayanon 8y ago

An unwelcome side effect is that incoming city dwellers can push up prices for people already in these small towns who don’t have the option to relocate.

claydavisss 8y ago
This could be said about Sunnyvale, Cupertino, Santa Clara also...
dahdum 8y ago
It's a welcome side effect for local business and city services, as well as helping smooth out geographical income inequality. Small towns usually have short commutes, so it's not the same type of issue as places like Denver.
jseliger 8y ago
That is typically an issue with zoning, not people moving there: https://www.vox.com/cards/affordable-housing-explained/what-is-zoning-euclidian-form-based-and-other-kinds https://www.vox.com/cards/affordable-housing-explained/what-.... Even most small towns prevent reasonably-priced housing via height minimums, lot setbacks, and parking minimums. The cost of housing is set by supply and demand; allow supply to increase and prices will moderate.
UncleEntity 8y ago
Or...people wanting to buy up their homes in "this little dead-end town" allow them the opportunity to fulfil their dreams of Big City Life. Though I think that's mostly a cop-out, people always blame the newcomers for all the problems -- can't count how many times I heard "Californians are driving up housing prices" during the real estate boom in the aughts. Now it's "the Chinese are driving up housing prices" though I often hear it's still the Californians' fault.

claydavisss 8y ago

Remote work is fantastic if you are willing to make some sacrifices. The biggest sacrifice is career advancement. I personally don't care because I am considered an older worker...but as a remote employee, it can be more difficult to advance into management etc. I also tend to let others "win" if I have any sort of workplace conflict. Since I am not in the office, I need to make sure no one has cause to talk negatively about me. Everything else is a positive. I can literally live wherever I want. I have no "commute". I get paid a decent Bay Area wage that is considered very high by local standards. I do not pay CA taxes. Many companies are still hesitant to embrace remote work but that is changing. My guess is in twenty years, the remote worker will have higher life satisfaction: much more likely to own a home, much more likely to be able to start a family etc etc.

drdrey 8y ago
I cringe a little when I hear "advance into management". Management is an entirely different job, not something that is an upgrade over an individual contributor role.
- alexgmcm 8y ago
  I agree but sadly the salary often is an upgrade and there are few alternative routes for advancement.
irl_zebra 8y ago
Agree. I have a job and you can either be remote or onsite. I am well on the way to c-suite roles partially because I choose to be on-site, and of course the necessary hard work. We don't typically make someone COO or Director of Engineering if they're remote for many reasons. Another reason to eschew remote is impact. Much easier to have impact and do real, meaningful work from onsite where one can convince people of things and drove companies in certain directions. Imagine Steve Jobs as a remote employee. Maybe this is cynical, but remote is great if all you want from life is to be well paid and code. For many, there's much more.
- phil21 8y ago

baybal2 8y ago

Anybody ever though about downshifting to 3rd world countries in line of this? I myself work for a SZ based company, moved there from Canada. During production run times I'm in Shenzhen, and the rest of the time I'm stationed in a random "developing country" trying to "play a big man," fraternise with local business and political establishments, trying to win bets. We have few Americans in the company, all of them are from "flyover" states. They all say China is a way better bet in moving up the ladder for them than Silicon Valley.

notmything 8y ago
A friend of mine moved to the Philippines with her husband (both Australian) to set up an offshore development shop doing NetSute ERP implementations for Australian NetSuite customers (usually mid-market retailers or manufactures). She’s been there for 4 years now so it must be going well - her house is amazing there too.
Const-me 8y ago
> Anybody ever though about downshifting to 3rd world countries in line of this? Many 3rd world countries have issues with government-provided infrastructure: security, healthcare, schools, etc. But there’re quite a lot of 1st & 2nd world countries with reasonable cost of living but good quality of life. Montenegro’s one of them (that’s where I currently live) but there’re more, e.g. most countries in Eastern or Southern Europe have similar qualities.

growlist 8y ago

My partner and I are making this move soon - we should go from a two bedroom terraced house to a good four bedroom with a nice garden, along with quieter roads, less crime, pollution and all the rest of it. In the absence of a decent regional policy I'd say we are doing our bit as two educated professionals to spread the wealth! I hate having to be part of this system and resisted as long as I could, but if you don't own property in the UK you are virtually a non-person in some senses.

GordonS 8y ago
> if you don't own property in the UK you are virtually a non-person in some senses I'm a property-owner in the UK. Could you explain a bit about what you mean by this comment? I understand that there is a strong desire to own a property, even if most people can't say exactly why that is, but I don't understand the 'non-person' comment at all.
- growlist 8y ago
  Landlords can hike the rent unfairly at the end of the rental period, kick you out to sell, and the mandatory term is short. Also, there are plenty of circles where lack of property ownership equals social death. Additionally missing out on rising property values can, due to increasingly inadequate pension provision, leave you far poorer in retirement, and even have a knock on effect on your offspring given the importance of the bank of mum and dad for younger buyers. I'd argue that all in all not owning property can hugely affect your life chances here in the UK. You just have to watch one of the TV shows about high court bailiffs or evictions etc. to see what things are like at the sharp end for renters. Do you think I am exaggerating? In some ways I see the UK as a semi-feudal state. Monarchy, rigid class system, concentration of land ownership in few hands (even worse in Scotland than England), property law that exploits the renter, etc.
  - GordonS 8y ago
    > there are plenty of circles where lack of property ownership equals social death I'm not sure what you mean; I can't imagine any circle where anyone would care either way. > You just have to watch one of the TV shows about high court bailiffs or evictions etc. to see what things are like at the sharp end for renters. Sorry, I make a point of not watching trash on Channel 5 ;) > Do you think I am exaggerating? No, I didn't say or even suggest that - I'm honestly just trying to understand what you mean. Also, you made a good point regarding retirement.

tylerjwilk00 8y ago

Finally - A positive perspective on small town living. When I read the stories of big city lifestyles I'm amazed so many people opt-in to it. Traffic, noise, concrete everywhere. Yuck - but to each their own. I'll take my country life as a remote worker going on 8 years. Trees, forest, wildlife, fresh air, backyards. 5 minutes walk or 1 minute drive to a shop for groceries, hardware, lumber, restaurants, kid parks. Everyone knows each other. Very tight knit community. Don't even get me started on cost of living differences. I'll never leave. Remote work really levels the playing field and unlocks a lot of potential for rural and small towns. All happening at a time when the staple of resource extraction is declining but global connectivity is increasing. There may be a bright future for small towns yet.

1337biz 8y ago
> Everyone knows each other. Very tight knit community. That's my main problem with it. Grew up in a small city and this was exactly the case. In a big city I can pick the people I want to deal with, in a small town this is inpossible without creating tensions.
- tylerjwilk00 8y ago
  I totally grok the desire for anon when living in a small town especially when I was younger. There is a social pressure that can be suffocating. I can't imagine the pressures of village or tribe life thousands of years ago. As I got older and relaxed this mostly went away. Such is life.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - lotsofpulp 8y ago
    It’s easy to be relaxed when the financial pressures have been lifted. But if you need your community to survive (e.g. LGBT in conservative small towns), that’s not fixable.
3pt14159 8y ago

legohead 8y ago

I moved to CA not for work, but family. There was nothing to do in my home state in the south, and I lived in the capital. In CA I have endless opportunities, events, family activities, and access to a huge variety of landscapes. Having both the ocean and mountains within easy reach is a big advantage. Food is also so much better out here. And then the people -- it's nice to live around people who think and feel the same way. I sometimes think through moving back, or somewhere else with low cost of living, but I'm not willing to give everything up.

noelwelsh 8y ago
I agree. Having lived in a big cities and little villages I much prefer the big city. However I think the mid-size city offers the best tradeoff between cost-of-living, ease of getting around, and stuff to do. It will have all the common activities and, if you choose the right city, the niche interests as well.
christophilus 8y ago
I've lived on the west coast and in the south (where I currently am). The west coast has what you say, but there are spots here in the south that are pretty close, and way less expensive. I'm a 3 hour drive from the ocean, 30 minutes from decent mountain hikes (not as good as the Cascades, but decent). The food here is not as varied as Seattle. To get the same variety, I have to hop in the car and head up to Ashville, down to Atlanta, or 30 minutes into Greenville (whose food scene is improving). That said, I'm currently in walking distance of a great Thai place, a really good microbrewery, a great farm-to-table place, a great Mexican place, a really good seafood place... So, that's good enough for me. Politically, this is a conservative place, but not as much a you'd think, and Ashville, which is ~1 hour away, is as liberal as Seattle, I'd wager. So, you can definitely find a nice group of folks who think the way you do, if you don't feel like hanging out with a more diverse group.
- mmt 8y ago
  > I'm a 3 hour drive from the ocean I'm going to go out on a limb and say that this would be a dealbreak for anyone for whom ocean access is even moderately important. Even the greater Portland, OR area being 2 hours away (assuming no traffic, which is never a safe assumption for those routes) was a big enough impediment to a friend of mine who is a CA expat there, that he considers casual day trips out of the question. > not as good as the Cascades, but decent > food here is not as varied as Seattle Ultimately, I think this is the big takeaway.. there are places that may be way less expensive, as you say, but many amenities (for lack of a better term) are only kinda-sorta comparable if one squints hard enough. If those amenities are central to ones lifestyle and perception of quality of life, that approximation isn't going to cut it, no matter how cheap it is. Some people may well overestimate the importance of such amenities, but others may underestimate them because they take them for granted, if they've lived in certain West Coast cities long enough.

keiferski 8y ago

I recently asked this very question on HN and got some fantastic answers: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17522160 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17522160

puranjay 8y ago

To people who have or are doing this, does the fact that you're not in the office hamper your career prospects? Do you risk pigeonholing yourself as a "skilled worker" and not "management material" - should you want to move up the ranks?

mcjiggerlog 8y ago
Probably, but I am completely fine with that. I don't want to work in management and don't see that as harming my career.
mooreds 8y ago
Depends on the kind of company and whether they are remote friendly or remote only.

mirimir 8y ago

That's what I did, some years ago, as a consultant. Once I had enough steady clients, I moved to a small town, where living expenses were much lower. However, I did pick a college town, not very far from interstates, Amtrak and a regional airport. So meeting clients hasn't been a huge hassle. And there are interesting communities, including a maker space. And damn, the vibe is amazing. As much as I come off online as a privacy extremist, I love the intimacy. Neighbors care about each other. There's no need to lock your doors. Neighbors ask about strange vehicles and people. They know you at the post office. I've received mail addressed to just name, city, state and postal code. But of course, I never talk about Mirimir etc there ;)

jseliger 8y ago
That's what I did, some years ago, as a consultant. Once I had enough steady clients, I moved to a small town, where living expenses were much lower. I'm living in NYC and looking into something similar. The rent is absurd and the vast majority of the work I do is conducted electronically. I read this article and was like, "Very close to my reaction." I don't want to move to a really small town, but somewhere like Nashville or Columbus, OH is appealing.
- gk1 8y ago
  I moved from Brooklyn to Baltimore five years ago, without changing my income. It meant an instant boost to my standard of living, as I was able to get a new luxury apartment in a nice neighborhood for the same rent as my infested Brooklyn studio in a "transitioning" neighborhood. There are so many mid-size, low-cost-of-living, vibrant cities to choose from. Baltimore, Pittsburg, Columbus, Cincinnati, Charleston, New Orleans, Nashville, Louisville, ... And these days they all have great co-working spaces.
  - cageface 8y ago
    If I did ever move back to the US I think I'd pick one of these second tier cities too. Small town living is just too provincial for me but I think you get a lot of the upsides of living in NYC or LA or SF without a lot of the downsides when you live in a place like Pittsburg. Not to mention that cities like NYC or LA are so expensive and so gentrified now that artists and other creative people can't afford to live there anymore so they're a lot less interesting than they were 20 years ago anyway. There's a lot of really creative and offbeat electronic music coming out of the American Midwest right now for example.

alkonaut 8y ago

I remote from a location less than 1h commute from a big city. Means I can have a big lawn with a house on it and swim 5 minutes walk from it. But I can also get all the stuff you only find in bigger cities like a large selection of restaurants, concerts etc. The downside is that it’s not small town cheap, but it’s definitely half the cost of living just half as far from the city or in the city proper.

ivm 8y ago

Six years ago our remotely working family was choosing between Canada and Chile (these countries have freelancer-friendly immigration[1]). After looking at the costs of life and real estate in Canada, Chile won and we moved to a small southern city[2]. It is walkable, green, full of various stores and services but still small enough to occasionally run into your friends in the downtown. I feel more at home here than in St. Petersburg where I've spent most of my life. We live very comfortably here for less than $2k/mo for two people and expect to build a house for less than $150k (including half a hectare of land that we have bought already). I think it's quite easy to retire early in these conditions even on a moderate remote income ($50-60k). Also, Chilean personal income taxes are the lowest in the OECD[3]. [1]: https://qotoqot.com/blog/best-countries/ https://qotoqot.com/blog/best-countries/ [2]: https://valdiviaguide.com/ https://valdiviaguide.com/ [3]: http://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/taxing-wages-chile.pdf http://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/taxing-wages-chile.pdf

davidw 8y ago
Cool! Chile looks like an interesting country - you can pick a climate that suits your fancy... but in practice, how does that work out? Are there differences (besides the weather) between north and south? Did you speak Spanish when you went? Have you written about your experiences?
- ivm 8y ago
  When we were moving here, I thought we would stay only for 6-7 years to get a better passport but now I just don't want to leave. The southern Chilean culture suits me perfectly: there's no tension in the air (especially compared to the US or Russia) and most people are a bit reserved but kind to each other. It's somewhat different in the central regions because of the population density and competitiveness but still great in my opinion. Neither of us spoke Spanish and it was tough in the first year because we had little time to practice. Overall Spanish acquisition goes quite slowly because we work from home and have met a lot of English-speaking friends but I got to the conversational level in the third year. It's not a hard language after all. I don't have an immigrant's blog but I made the "Valdivia Guide" site from the previous comment.

SteveGerencser 8y ago

I've always thought that people misunderstood the power of remote working. The power is that it lets you live where you want to live while also letting you do the work that you want to regardless of where either is. We love country life. We live in a village of less than 400 people on 100 acres of land yet I work internationally in marketing and my wife is an engineer with a major aerospace company. Some of my best friends also have jobs that allow them to live in the city they want to live (Tampa area) while working for companies in locations that they have no desire to live in (SF Bay area). I've always felt that remote working was all about making the connection between the desired career and desired lifestyle where in the past if you wanted to work for major firm X you had to live THERE.

sanderjd 8y ago
Isn't this exactly what people understand the power of remote work to be? Sadly, most firms still don't think the (real or perceived) loss of productivity is a good deal for them, even if it is for their employees.
- SteveGerencser 8y ago
  Based on my experience it isn't. Most people full stop at 'work from home' but never take the next step toward live how I want to live while working how I want to work. They have their job, convince their boss to let them work from home, then never actually do anything other than work in their PJs. ;)
  - sanderjd 8y ago
    Maybe staying where they are but working in their PJs is how they want to live!
cardern 8y ago
I don't think that most people misunderstand the power of remote working. I work from home 99% of the time, but it is nice having the flexibility to go into the office when necessary. People also develop networks (professional and personal) during the time it might take to turn something into a remote opportunity and it is hard to separate from that.

humanrebar 8y ago

A huge upside for small town living is livability for people with disabilities. It's a major reason, for example, that people like to retire to smaller towns. It's also why it is expensive to rear more than a couple small kids in a major urban area, assuming you can consider babies and toddlers (temporarily) less-than-able human beings. It varies from big city to big city, but older areas of cities are usually grandfathered out of ADA regulations that require wider doors, accessibility ramps, elevators, etc. Parking at all in most cities is atrocious, let alone handicap parking with extra room to unload a wheelchair. Wide aisles are a waste of space in dense urban areas but needed if you need to get a wheelchair to the only open table in the back of the room. Shoving your way on to a crowded train car is distasteful when young and healthy but a deal breaker for many. See also availability of handicap bathroom stalls. The list goes on. I was recently at a museum in a small city and was struck with how many visitors had significant disabilities of various kinds. For all the diversity we come to expect from large cities, this kind of diversity is probably lacking.

darpa_escapee 8y ago
I've always been under the impression that small towns aren't accessible from an aging and disabled perspective. Even the smallest tasks require a car and there's little to no public transportation. Whereas in cities, you might only have to go to the corner to grab necessities or get medication from your pharmacy. I've worked with Meals on Wheels in suburban areas. Often, if the elderly didn't live in a senior community/nursing home or didn't have family nearby, they barely left home because they physically, or legally, couldn't drive. That means they don't see doctors when they need to, and lacked food, medication and basic necessities. Taxis exist, but they're relatively expensive if you're retired and living off of Social Security.

rpvnwnkl 8y ago

There’s a perk for the small towns, too: they get “tech money” without having to court a “tech industry”. This brings money into the community that would otherwise be left outside it. I see remote workers as an equalizer / booster for communities that have a small economy with little outside interaction with the larger economy. I’m thinking of small rural towns, groups of 2,000 ppl or fewer that are geographically isolated.

xivzgrev 8y ago

A friens of mine was once working with a developer who charged SF market rates but lived somewhere in Idaho. Part of me wishes for that, how much he must be cash flowing. Also i find it ironic that despite all our advances in technology most tech companies insist on people working in office.

taurath 8y ago

Simple fact is I think many many people would look for better places to live if they could afford the lifestyle they wanted there. That’s why so many of my friends have moved from the Bay Area to Seattle and then to Colorado and sometimes to Portland now. Main downside of moving to a small town if you’re LGBT or queer is that you’re always going to be the odd one out - at the very least you won’t have much of a dating pool.

strooper 8y ago

The idea, "work from anywhere", helped me leave big, dirty, over crowded, complicated city for a small, clean, friendly one about four years ago. From my experience- the upsides are- relaxed lifestyle, friendly environment. The downsides are- very slow people all around makes you significantly slower, significantly less competitive work attitude and very few like minded people around.

newbalance 8y ago

Great to hear about the happy coexistence of creatives and small town communities. A few of the takeaways for me: - General rule, a city can support 1 creative for every 1,000 people - First mover advantage: small towns see creatives as novelty and are willing to assist. - Benefits creatives moving to small town, but with an existing "big city" network - Lowered cost of living means increased budgets for passion projects and less team dedicated to paid, professional work

rainbowmverse 8y ago

Small towns get worse the further you are from the default. For example, dating here is terrible. All the men are assholes or very deep in the closet. The women are super religious. Think bible quotes as Tinder profiles. And I don't mean "their bios have a lot about religion in them." I mean that's their whole profile. A bible quote. And I doubt many gender non-comforming people in my age range are out about it. There is no way I'm taking my queer ass to one of the three dive bars to do it the traditional way. That's not even getting into the lack of entertainment options. This town is at least close enough to Atlanta and Athens for good internet options and reasonable support for LGBT+ people in government. They had updated marriage licenses ready before the SCOTUS ruling. If you're a straight, white, cis dude who doesn't mind traveling to the nearest city for anything fun to do, knock yourself out. At least get a hotel paid monthly and spend some real quality time in a prospective small town first. Even if you are super default, I don't see how you could enjoy it if you're remotely intellectually curious. I'm getting out of here ASAP.

elf25 8y ago

got two houses for sale 'near nothing' but a semi major university, good high speed, and 90 minutes from a major metro with great connections to others. :-)

simonebrunozzi 8y ago

I'd love to live in a small town in Italy (where I'm from), however - to oversimplify a bit - I am afraid that the type of people that I would normally meet is not exciting or interesting as people in bigger cities (I currently live in SF).

Puer 8y ago
How do you define interesting or exciting? I spent a summer in Sardinia a few years ago. I didn't meet anyone who was a programmer like myself, but I met plenty of people who taught me about food, literature, philosophy, herding sheep, and how to live simply. I fully understand the appeal of SF and I know that there's more to SF than Silicon Valley, but I'd much rather live somewhere where I'm surrounded by people that I wouldn't normally meet. I feel like those environments give the greatest opportunity for growth and expansion of my personal perspective.
- simonebrunozzi 8y ago
  I don't disagree with you - what I am trying to say is that perhaps it's difficult to know for sure that you will be happy with the type of people you will meet in a certain place. That's why it's difficult for me to even think about moving back to Italy eventually: I am not sure I will like it there.

gammateam 8y ago

> It’s harder for creative professionals to make a living in big cities. Still more desirable to be the creative in the giant loft in the city doing really interesting or weird stuff that has no discernible market value except that the opaque market valued it for millions anyway. You aren't going to have any of that in Small town, Anywheres. Just a few graphic designers that suddenly have a manageable cost of living, I can admit there is utility in that. I guess.

stared 8y ago

When cost of living is a factor, I recommend Warsaw, Poland. For me it is a sweet spot for a big enough city (collaboration, flights, etc) but neither too overwhelming (as London or New York) nor too expensive (as them or Bay Area). 5x lower rent prices than in SF (https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=Poland&city1=San+Francisco%2C+CA&city2=Warsaw https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...). Thanks to that I an spend most of my time on side projects. It wouldn't be possible in Bay Area.

jimkri 8y ago

This is something that I'm currently debating and have been thinking about a lot lately. NYC is so expensive and makes it insanely hard to save anything. Moving to say Woodstock, NY would be half the price, 2 hours away on a bus, and its beautiful. I also think that people from small towns can give you a different perceptive on ideas and life that you can't get anywhere else.