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St Louis Uber driver has been streaming his passengers online. Most have no idea
- Scoundreller 8y agoThis would never happen in Canada... our data rates are too outrageous to make this viable.
- bdcravens 8y agoRing doorbell cameras record without consent, and can be shared via their neighborhood feature. Uber vehicles, like homes with Ring cameras, are private property. Aside from Uber serving as a middleman between private citizens and private property, what's the difference?
- PhasmaFelis 8y agoFor one thing, doorbell cameras aren't generally streamed to the entire world.
- dnautics 8y agowould it make a difference if they were?
- r00fus 8y agoYeah I think so. Also if someone is clearly profiting from my privacy breach I'm going to be further upset. Mind you I often, when going to people's houses ask them to turn off their Alexa or whatever and they're pretty happy to. Hidden trigger phrases or targeted spying are a real hard to discover possibility.
- codedokode 8y agoYes, it would. It is normal that if you come to someone's door the owner can see you.
- Trump2020MAGA 8y ago> Missouri is a one-party consent state There you have it- and a private car with a stranger driving is not a place with a reasonable expectation of privacy. This is a non-story. Uber drivers near me have cameras, not for twitch, but just to protect themselves against unruly/lying passengers.
- bagacrap 8y ago"without their consent" is a big difference from those "smile, you're on TV" security signs.
- walrus01 8y agoI think we can do without obvious troll usernames here, no matter how noteworthy your comments may be.
- Trump2020MAGA 8y agoExcuse me, it's not a troll username. If you have something to add to the discussion, please do. Otherwise, is my username on topic?
- orastor 8y agoSome videos are still up: https://www.twitch.tv/justsmurf/videos/all https://www.twitch.tv/justsmurf/videos/all Creepy as fuck to be honest
- dbg31415 8y agoMost taxis have videos... just a matter of who watches it. Is it less creepy if it's just some guy watching old surveillance videos if he works for a security company? Or the NSA? Because... well, look, if you find this creepy you'll just make yourself sad reading about what our government does.
- matthewmacleod 8y agoYes, that is less creepy.
- freehunter 8y agoI think “creepy” is one of the least interesting arguments someone can have. Plenty of things are creepy, and the word “creepy” itself falls into the same category as “offensive” or other very subjective accusations. “Creepy” is not a good argument. What’s offensive to you is normal to me, what’s creepy to me is normal to you.
- codedokode 8y agoIt is a violation of rights of people captured in the video. What is creepy for you is not very relevant here.
- bb88 8y agoI want to understand why you think it's a violation of rights of people in the video. Because to me, it doesn't seem clear cut at all. Is it a policy violation of Uber/Lyft? That doesn't seem like the case because there are other drivers that livestream uber rides. Is it a violation of reasonable expectation to privacy when you're in someone else's vehicle? Because that's not necessarily a given, since you're in someone else's vehicle. Is it because it's being live streamed and recorded on a site like twitch? Because it seems to me that if someone can legally record video, it's their copyright, and they can distribute it however they want to. What am I missing?
- writepub 8y agoThis guy is a veteran?!! What a shame, that someone sworn to protect Americans now cowers behind semantics and loopholes to exploit their trust!! Clearly ridership dropped on notifying them of the streaming, no excuse can hide the truth here - he wants to exploit their trust! For shame! And unlike the proud, honest veterans who actually care for Americans! Edit: any lawyers here? Can this become a federal wiretapping case, as twitch streams across state lines? Like gambling online relies on meaningless semantics of being within a state that allows for such?
- zajd 8y ago> someone sworn to protect Americans now cowers behind semantics and loopholes to exploit their trust This is pretty American if you ask me
- jdavis703 8y agoI'm not a veteran, but I did take the oath of office. To me, the oath that I swore to uphold is to defend American government institutions (and particularly the agency I worked for) against foreign and domestic enemies. My oath doesn't mean I have any special commitments to individual American citizens acting in an individual capacity.
- writepub 8y agoIndeed, semantics. Wherever Americans specifically call out their gratitude for veteran's service, they're not thanking them for their allegiance to government institutions that may or may not be on their side. They specifically perceive veterans to be selflessly protecting 'the people'
- UncleEntity 8y agoI think, perhaps, you didn't interpret the oath as was intended... It's supposed to be to The People through the agency of the Constitution and not pledging allegiance to whomever cuts your paycheck.
- DoreenMichele 8y agohttp://nchv.org/index.php/news/media/background_and_statistics/ http://nchv.org/index.php/news/media/background_and_statisti... About 11% of the adult homeless population are veterans. Perhaps if we want veterans to act honorably, we should treat them respectfully. Veterans are often kind of thrown away by the country after it has maimed them for its benefit.
- jrgaston 8y agoRemind me, why do people favor Uber over a taxi?
- Scoundreller 8y agoCheaper. Easier ordering. You know when it will arrive. You can land in a country where people speak != your language, and still get around without having to learn the "local way". Reviews of rider and driver provide some metrics to act upon by vendor.
- fooker 8y agoIs there any reason this could not happen in a taxi?
- efficax 8y agoIn NYC, I'll take a cab. Just about everywhere else in America I get a Lyft. Why? Because taxi dispatch sucks. The cabs never come, or they come very late. The dispatch operators are rude if you ask where the cab you called is. In some places, like Albany, NY, the cabs will take detours to pick up other passengers without asking you or telling you that's what will happen. Etc. If you live in most of America, and want to get somewhere, and the public transit sucks, Lyft gets you there. Taxis just don't.
- PhasmaFelis 8y agoSpeed and convenience. People who get snarky about Uber/Facebook/etc. users don't seem to realize that these things have very real utility for millions of people. We don't just use them because we're too stupid to know better. If you want to address their (very real, glaring) problems, you'll need to offer an equally-useful alternative, not just smug moralizing.
- dnautics 8y agoin the US, there was a problem with taxis not picking up some minorities. If you were LGBT, there was a high likelihood of harassment or abuse by the driver. These are far less likely in lyft/uber s
- stevenwliao 8y ago
- walrus01 8y agoI do not agree with streaming but there are a LOT of uber and lyft drivers that now use cameras which record the interior of the car. If you pick up a lot of drunk people inevitably a bunch of them are going to be assholes, pick fights, claim sexual harassment when there was none, vomit in the back of the car and then deny the cleaning charge, etc. I do not envy the "dealing with the random public" part that full time uber/lyft drivers have to handle.
- r00fus 8y agoYeah it's the profit that pushes this right into unethical territory.
- codedokode 8y agoIf you warn them that they are recorded then it would be ok. But, as the article states, many people refuse to ride in this case.
- DoreenMichele 8y agoGargac’s videos fit into the newer “IRL,” or “In Real Life,” section that encourages users to stream their life outside of games. Gargac says he’s earned about $3,500 off Twitch users so far, including subscriptions, donations and tips called “bits.” That’s on top of about $150 to $300 he earns from fares on an average night. He typically drives on weekend nights because, he says, the bar crowd makes for the most entertaining rides. So, the Gig Economy, where so many workers are underpaid and have no benefits, etc, mated with the Internet version of Reality TV and this is their bastard child. I find it disturbing, but I think the conversation here should really be about "What can the average person realistically do who doesn't want to be a wage slave anymore?" I mean, if we want people to not whore out their passengers' lives in a grotesque modern version of Candid Camera for cash, maybe we should, like, create jobs with adequate pay and benefits. Bizarre concept, I know, that treating all your citizens like they deserve a living wage, medical care and basic, decent housing might promote ethical behavior. But I'm putting it out there anyway.
- writepub 8y agoNo. You cannot rationalize someone's malicious intent to exploit and profit off of trust people place in you by getting into your cab on the gig economy, or anything else. That's a slippery slope where bad actors place blame on non causal issues for their actions
- DoreenMichele 8y agoI am neither rationalizing it, nor justifying it. However, having spent several years homeless and found that classism, sexism and other societal crap were huge barriers to me getting my life back, I think it is unrealistic and cruel to not criticize the sick system that helps foster such bad choices. If you make it hard enough to make good choices that you approve of, don't be shocked when some people's moral fiber fails the test and they get on with meeting survival needs instead of ethically and high-mindedly starving.
- jeffdavis 8y agoI don't see how any of what you said applies to the current story. We don't know whether the driver has financial problems or not. On the surface, it seems likely that the driver is simply an unethical person who is abusing his customers' trust for money and/or fame.
- WalterGR 8y agoWhat is the expectation of privacy in a vehicle in a public place, according to the law? I’m not weighing in on what it should be - not being a lawyer I’m curious what the law or precedent dictates.
- dnautics 8y agoit's not even that, it's a question of the expectation of privacy in someone else's vehicle.
- _rpd 8y agoI think the fact that he is making money from the videos puts the situation into a different category, so that publicity rights come into play ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_rights https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_rights
- jMyles 8y agoAm I the only one who has no problem with this? You're in someone else's car. Of course that person has a right to record you. And freedom of the press is a crucial cornerstone of a democratic state. Of course this person has a right to publish anything they please. This is just journalism paired with a new and novel social and technological configuration. Nothing more. Meanwhile, actual eavesdropping-style surveillance is ongoing via state institutions. Are we perhaps bothered by our conscience a bit here?
- jobigoud 8y agoIt's basic decency to let the people know they are being filmed.
- PhasmaFelis 8y ago> Am I the only one who has no problem with this? You're in someone else's car. Of course that person has a right to record you. And freedom of the press is a crucial cornerstone of a democratic state. Of course this person has a right to publish anything they please. Is there a name for the fallacy that says "anything not actually illegal must therefore be morally correct"?
- jMyles 8y agoI wasn't making the case that it's merely legal and therefore OK - it's actually novel and interesting IMO. What's so wrong with it?
- DanBC 8y agoIt's neither novel nor interesting, and other countries have already regulated this. For example, in England you're allowed to use CCTV but you need to register with ICO and you can only use that video for law enforcement purposes - eg if someone vomits in your car you could use the video when you sue that person.
- entwife 8y agoI, too, don't have a problem with this. Overall, video would increase safety of passenger and driver. My problem is with the comments on the video stream. For safety of passenger, I hope he obscures their names and addresses.
- Symbiote 8y agoDoes anyone have a feeling for what the GDPR fine would be, if this had taken place in Europe? The number of people affected is fairly small, but this isn't the usual negligence or incompetence. (Ironically, the site is geoblocked for the EU.)
- number6 8y agoI guess $1000 per case of filming plus his earnings
- protomyth 8y agoI guess it would really depend if they go after the driver or Uber itself.
- DanBC 8y agoIn England it'd be a letter ("Information notice") from the regulator explaining that this use needs to be registered. After that it'd be fine of about a few thousand pounds. Here's the ICO page for enforcement action: https://ico.org.uk/action-weve-taken/enforcement/ https://ico.org.uk/action-weve-taken/enforcement/ Here's a CCTV case (without further publishing): https://ico.org.uk/action-weve-taken/enforcement/noble-design-and-build-of-telford/ https://ico.org.uk/action-weve-taken/enforcement/noble-desig...
- underwater 8y agoCowardly behaviour to hide behind the “it’s legal” line. If the majority of your passengers, who don’t know they’re on camera, think this is creepy then ethically you’re in the wrong.
- benmarks 8y agoReminds me of the Ryan Is Driving YouTube channel from Charleston: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKhK5Ysw9DpHNNEVSAu0yIA https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKhK5Ysw9DpHNNEVSAu0yIA He tends to blur out faces, except for extraordinary circumstances.
- benmarks 8y agoThis guy is one indecent exposure instance away from potentially serious legal issues.
- MangezBien 8y agoOf course this dude is trying to be a cop.
- Simulacra 8y agoThis is seriously not OK. I guess I’m going to have to carry around a hat or something and keep my head down whenever I get into a Lyft. It might be legal, but it’s truly not OK especially when people don’t know they are being streamed live. I hope Uber wises up and does something about this guy.
- fatjokes 8y agoIf a passenger who is a minor exposed themself to the camera, would the driver the liable for producing (and distributing) child pornography, if they somehow didn't notice and let it be posted?
- joshlittle 8y agoTechnically, it is against policy to transport minors under 18; that’s up to the driver.
- codedokode 8y agoWhat surprised me most is not the poor culture of the driver or the viewers but rather poor legislation in USA. They have the right to bear arms, but have no sane protection for privacy. For comparison. on Japanese TV when they take an interview in the street, they hide the faces of unrelated people passing by. That's the example of sane legislation.
- nojvek 8y agoThe US Govt surprisingly has very lax laws towards privacy. I guess you can’t build a govt for the people when corporate money runs the system.
- machinesmachine 8y agoYou know this episode of Black Mirror with Hamm...? Nevermind
- rmason 8y agoUpdate - When first asked to comment on the story Uber said the following: "Recording passengers without their consent is illegal in some states, but not Missouri.” Then around 7 pm they suspended the drivers access to the app pending investigation. They just affirmed what he's doing is not illegal. So is the investigation time being used so their lawyers can find a valid excuse to terminate him?
- codedokode 8y agoBy the way an adequate response would be to publish driver's full name, photo and address and tell the story on the local news. So that everyone around knows who he is and he can better understand how victims felt.
- joshlittle 8y agoI drive for Uber as a mental and emotional health break between contracts. Uber partners do not have to accept every request. In fact, I don’t accept any passenger with a low score. As it turns out, there’s no shortage of passengers in San Francisco. Be nice to your driver! Most passengers appear to be completely unaware that it is a “privilege” for a passenger to ride in my car, (not a “right”) Resultingly, a very small group of terrible passengers feel that their abusive behavior towards others or my property is justified. With informed consent, I do indeed record all activity in and out of the car. If it starts to get abusive I will simply end the ride when and where it is safe to do so. When one enters my car, they’re inside my privately owned vehicle. If they don’t like being recorded - They can probably easily find a ride with a different driver. Of course, everybody I drive seems to be OK with this arrangement, as my driver score is 4.99 stars. This is what I have written / posted: —————————— First, welcome to my car! If you’re reasonable, decent, empathetic human who understands how painful it is for me to have to write the following informed consent disclaimer, thanks. You are appreciated, friend. • This car is equipped with video capture and broadcast devices. • This equipment protects you (the passenger), Joshua (the driver), and the vehicle from a "He Said - She Said" scenario in the event of accident or an incident. • In California, video recording does not require two party consent; only “informed consent” I.e me informing you - which this just did. • There is no audio recording - that would require your consent. • In addition, an abbreviated notice of active filming has been posted on all exterior passenger windows. • If at any time you feel uncomfortable with video being captured, please inform me as soon as possible. We will work together to find a agreeable safe place to promptly end this trip. You will only be charged for the partial trip. Note that video capture and recording will continue in the event of a rapid escalation of hostilities. Thanks for understanding!
- joshlittle 8y agoI forgot add- I only keep recordings for me.
- masonic 8y agoI doubt that will qualify as "informed consent" for those not literate in English or the vision-impaired.
- allard 8y agoHe's been suspended from Twitch and Uber — https://www.riverfronttimes.com/newsblog/2018/07/21/creepy-st-louis-uber-driver-who-livestreams-his-passengers-suspended-on-twitch https://www.riverfronttimes.com/newsblog/2018/07/21/creepy-s....
- annaleelady 8y agoInsane! The driver wants his privacy respected by not having reporters include his full name in the stories...