27 ms·

The Great Apple Keyboard Cover-Up

406 points by shritesh 8y ago

tcoff91 8y ago
I’m curious to know if the membrane improves the feel of the keys. I hate how the butterfly switches feel.
- pier25 8y ago
  Some articles say it feels a bit softer, but I doubt it will make much of a difference.
sillysaurus3 8y ago
My too-expensive 2015 MBP has a nonfunctional keyboard. I have to type using external keyboards, which is quite "fun". Apple wants $500. Dragging an old $10 USB keyboard around with you makes you look like you really like mechanical keyboards. It's been about a year and a half now. I guess you get used to it.
- princekolt 8y ago
  There is a service program to replace these keyboards for free. They are even refunding people who paid to get their keyboards fixed before the program launched. This is almost a non-issue at this point if you can use a replacement computer while they fix yours.
  - protomyth 8y ago
    So, if I send in my computer, does the replacement keyboard have a fix to keep it from breaking again?
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
  - fzzzy 8y ago
    Not the 2015, only the butterfly keyboards.
  - wild_preference 8y ago
    They don’t fix the keyboard. They only “reset” it which means you’ll have to bring it in again once it accumulates enough issues to make it worthwhile. My first key failed within one month. Eventually seven keys came off with ny fingers as I typed. “Non-issue” is comical word choice.
    - iamaelephant 8y ago
      Uhhh this is not a symptom of apple's keyboard issue.
      - mrep 8y ago
        I haven't had a single issue with my late 2013 MBP since I bought it and never had a key stop working with any other keyboard I have ever used. It is 100% an issue with the new keyboard design.
    - gnicholas 8y ago
      In my case, they are sending out to have the top case replaced. Can’t speak for others, but they’re not just kicking the can down the road. The Apple genius also told me that the replacement part won’t be identical to the original keyboard. We’ll see if it’s the new 3rd generation butterfly or just a tweaked 2nd gen.
      - protomyth 8y ago
        That's my big problem with the whole "free" repair. If I send in my computer, what do I get back? Will it have some fix that prevents future problems or will I be SOL in a couple of weeks when one of the keys fails again? > In my case, they are sending out to have the top case replaced. Can’t speak for others, but they’re not just kicking the can down the road. They built the thing so they have no real option other the replacing the whole top case. The in store repair is blowing air into the keyboard and hoping it fixes it.
- alfalfasprout 8y ago
  They switched to the butterfly keyboard in 2016. Apple fixed my 2016 MBP Touchbar for free. If you're having issues w/ a 2015 model that's unrelated to the issue the author and most others recently have referenced.
- mleiphamellis 8y ago
  Does Apple not still offer a $310 USD mail in flat rate for any repair not related to damage?
- bootlooped 8y ago
  Have you considered buying the keyboard module on eBay and doing it yourself?
- fouc 8y ago
  Why are you trying to feed the 'too expensive' meme?
- nicolas_t 8y ago
  There's a way to pay a lot less. Ask apple to replace the battery, it costs $219 and because they have to replace the topcase when replacing the battery, you will get a new keyboard. I was in the same situation and Apple also quoted me $500 until I asked to replace the battery.
  - akvadrako 8y ago
    He's talking about an older model.
    - okanesen 8y ago
      Doesn't make his point invalid though. My battery on my older rMBP was almost dying and I went to the Apple Store to let them replace the battery and they also completely changed the top including the keyboard, because the battery is attached to it. So if you need to get your keyboard replaced, just ask for a new battery instead.
    - nicolas_t 8y ago
      I have a mbp 2015 retina so same as he has I think, Apple quoted me $500 to change the keyboard but $219 to change the battery which included the topcase. For newer models, no need to do this since keyboard repairs are free.
  - sillysaurus3 8y ago
    This is an awesome tip. Thanks for the ray of hope. I'll look into it.
- lou1306 8y ago
  My early 2015 13'' MBP had the same problem, which is quite well-documented online. Have you tried replacing the keyboard cable? It's a ~€10 fix (say 20, if you don't have a pentalobe screwdriver) and there are lots of tutorials floating around on the web. I agree that too-expensive machines shouldn't fail so badly, but so it goes.
phlyingpenguin 8y ago
I’m confused. Are we supposed to be bandwagon mad that Apple took steps to fix their busted keyboard?
- paxys 8y ago
  No, we're supposed to be mad because they still refuse to acknowledge that it was a real problem to begin with.
  - zaroth 8y ago
    They did announced a repair program, is that not acknowledging the issue?
    - mrep 8y ago
      Is their keyboard replacement program valid for the new laptops and how long does it last? I ask how long because my late 2013 MBP (granted, maxed out top of the line 15 inch) is still running like a complete champ and with how slow cpu/ram is increasing in power these days (mine has 4 cores/16GB ram and now 5 years later, you can only get 6 cores and 32GB of ram) I would expect a top of the line laptop to last a decade before recycling. Laptop keyboards are not something you can easily/cheaply replace because if they fail, it totally screws over the "laptop" feature since now you need to pay to replace the entire keyboard or get an external one. So no, laptop keyboards should have even higher standards for reliability these days and I haven't seen any commitment for these new ones.
      - Nullabillity 8y ago
        > Laptop keyboards are not something you can easily/cheaply replace because if they fail, it totally screws over the "laptop" feature since now you need to pay to replace the entire keyboard or get an external one. There are many laptops with easily replaceable keyboards, this is just typical Apple being Apple.
  - tbrock 8y ago
lancewiggs 8y ago
They fixed the keyboard, increased the max memory to 32GB and stuck to their guns on the touch bar - and that all seems reasonable to me. (I’m far more annoyed by Microsoft removing ESC as the dbox cancel key for errors in Excel than the disappearance of the ESC key)
- handbanana 8y ago
  They didn't really fix it though, did they?
  - saagarjha 8y ago
    That’s the question raised here: Apple has said that they’ve made the keyboard “quieter”. The jury’s out on whether that was codewords for fixing the issue.
    - handbanana 8y ago
      I don’t dispute that. My point is they half-assed the fix
      - saagarjha 8y ago
        How do you know that? Have you had one of the new keyboards fail on you already?
  - skygazer 8y ago
    This [0] from this morning was interesting. Apparently AppleInsider has been monitoring a number of Genius Bar and authorized service centers for warranty repairs of 2014 thru 2017 laptops. It seems 2016 MBPs had the most keyboard issues, and the 2017 version brought the claims back down to (and below) 2014/15 levels. So, it might be reasonable to say they fixed it last year, in terms of prevalence of issues, although absurd cost to repair issue remains; combined with PR, probably explains this year's mod. [0] https://appleinsider.com/articles/18/07/13/the-2018-macbook-pro-keyboard-doesnt-seem-to-improve-reliability-and-thats-not-great https://appleinsider.com/articles/18/07/13/the-2018-macbook-...
dingo_bat 8y ago
Reading the comment under TFA it seems macbook keyboards have no water resistance? Seems a bit weird for such an expensive device.
- 1996 8y ago
  This reminds me about the drain conduits (aqueducts?) in the thinkpads: liquids poured on the keyboard are diverted away from the electronics
  - jcloud_dev 8y ago
    Spill drains? I once spilled an entire cup of tea on my T440 - almost half a liter. Didn't even need to power down the laptop to continue working.
- BugsJustFindMe 8y ago
  Oh god. Forget about keyboards. I once watched a droplet of water so small that it had to have been affected more by subtle air currents than by gravity hit the edge of the trackpad on a pre-force-touch model and then vanish inside the gap, say around 2011, at which point the trackpad promptly stopped working properly for several days (phantom touches, cursor jumping, dead zones). Be careful out there with the expensive toys, eh?
  - stefanfisk 8y ago
    OMG, this reminds me of when I wrecked my MBA after getting out of the shower! A drop of water managed to break the power button such that is was constantly being pressed if no other key was pressed, causing hard shutdowns. BUT - if I used a tooth pick to stick one of the unused F-keys I could continue using the computer, with the downside that certain key combinations stopped working (mostly shift combos). Until I figured out the toothpick fix coding was like a Lost episode in high speed, where all was lost if I forgot to press the button within the allotted timespan.
madeofpalk 8y ago
This is in-line with the the 'under promise and over deliver" mantra I was taught at Apple Retail. Don't make any promises you can't keep, and silently start to fix issues like this. Apple having a hardware fix for their keyboard disasters in this revision is also inline with their repair program they just issued.
- NeedMoreTea 8y ago
  > Don't make any promises you can't keep What, like delivering a keyboard that actually works reliably? It seems very much the opposite of under-promise, over-deliver in that they promised it and the touch bar would be better. The most that can be said is both are proving hugely subjective and controversial. Now, had they managed to get Thinkpad feel in 2mm travel...
  - coldtea 8y ago
    >What, like delivering a keyboard that actually works reliably? Under all other constraints you have. Which is not just simple "put any old working keyboard in there and call it a day".
- garmaine 8y ago
  > Apple having a hardware fix for their keyboard disasters in this revision is also inline with their repair program they just issued. Yes, they just issued a repair program. Until precisely 3 weeks ago Apple refused to acknowledge the issue and forced customers to pay for costly repairs on their own dime. This patent was filed in September 2016. Apple was fucking lying through their teeth for a full 22 months and have been caught in that lie. Frankly I'm amazed there isn't more outrage at this. How could anyone trust them going forward?
  - coldtea 8y ago
    >Yes, they just issued a repair program. Until precisely 3 weeks ago Apple refused to acknowledge the issue and forced customers to pay for costly repairs on their own dime. This patent was filed in September 2016. Apple was fucking lying through their teeth for a full 22 months and have been caught in that lie. Do you expect companies to immediately jump to full repair programs the minute the first few users complain? Especially when people will complain about anything. Of course they'd wait to see if it's a widespread issue.
phil248 8y ago
I'm sorry, but are people actually more concerned with the sound of the keyboard than the arrow keys? It took me a week to get used to the sound. Six months in and I still can't reliably hit the arrow keys. It's as if they're designed to be as difficult as possible.
- BugsJustFindMe 8y ago
  I guess one kinda important difference is that you can see how bad the up/down arrows are going to be before you buy it. Nobody predicted the failure rate.
- saagarjha 8y ago
  Ooh, yes, I hate the new arrow keys. The inverted-T arrangement was great for positioning your fingers without looking down, since you could use the empty space to orient yourself.
  - bsimpson 8y ago
    I haven't used the new keyboard. Can't you still detect the arrow keys by feeling for the split between up/down?
    - keehun 8y ago
      It really is not the same. Also, the up/down being squished to half their normal height makes things more difficult. In other words, there is just a lot less room for error, now..
      - saagarjha 8y ago
        The up/down arrow keys are sized as they were before. It's the left/right arrow keys that have grown to be twice their normal height.
        ld00d 8y ago
        On the magic keyboard, the whole bottom row of keys is shorter than they used to be. Not by a lot, but they're shorter. They're now the same height as the keys above.
userbinator 8y ago
The fact that the membrane is still vented (labeled 321 in the diagram) suggests that this will only delay, and not fix the dust ingress problem. Indeed, it could make things worse by creating a tiny pump[1] that draws particles in on each keystroke. I don't know why they didn't vent from the bottom instead, but that's how completely sealed (i.e. waterproof) keypads are vented. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diaphragm_pump https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diaphragm_pump Edit: wow, downvotes? Care to explain...?
- npunt 8y ago
  Interesting point! Patent is suggesting its a pump but won't cause ingress due to small size. Per the full patent: > [0058] For example, FIG. 3D depicts a third alternative example of the key assembly of FIG. 3A. In this example, the membrane 213 or gasket defines a vent 320, aperture, or other hole in one of the sides 318A. When the key cap 103 is moved towards a depressed position, the membrane 213 compresses gas inside the internal area 319, forcing the gas through the vent 320. This allows the embossed area of the membrane 213 to act as a bellows mechanism, forcing gas in a direction 321. This may force contaminants away from the internal area 319 and/or out of the aperture 210. This may also reduce compression of the membrane 213, reduc- ing how much the membrane 213 affects the force curve response. The specific point about sizing is this next section: > In various implementations, the vent 320 may be configured with sufficiently small dimensions that gas can be forced through the vent 320 without easily allowing liquids, dust, and/or other particles to enter the internal area 319 from the aperture 210. Also here's the Patently Apple analysis [0], which points out that this patent covers three different designs (the vented one being the third). I'm not sure the third design we're discussing is the one implemented in the 2018 models though. [0] http://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/2018/03/a-new-apple-invention-declares-war-on-crumby-keyboards.html http://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/2018/03/a-new-ap...
- tinus_hn 8y ago
  >> Edit: wow, downvotes? Care to explain...? > Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading. Don’t worry about downvotes, even if you care about the karma points you can at most get to -4 anyway.
basicplus2 8y ago
<Apple has a patent for this exact tech designed to “prevent and/or alleviate contaminant ingress.”> This is a pretty sad day that sonething like this can be patented.. Anything wrapped in a cover can “prevent and/or alleviate contaminant ingress” Does any patent office in the world really think nobody has thought of this before?
- skygazer 8y ago
  The patent [0] does seem a bit more extensive than just wrap it in a membrane. It discusses using venting/gas pressure (from depressing the key) to expel debris, for instance. [0] http://pdfaiw.uspto.gov/.aiw?PageNum=0&docid=20180068808&IDKey=&HomeUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fpdfaiw.uspto.gov%2F http://pdfaiw.uspto.gov/.aiw?PageNum=0&docid=20180068808&IDK...
- JustSomeNobody 8y ago
  Sad because the patent wouldn't have been needed in the first place if they didn't feel the need to go so thin.
calimac 8y ago
This is SOP for apple across their product lines.
corey_moncure 8y ago
Was the old keyboard engineering so bad? I feel like Apple has been fixing what wasn't broken since about 2010, regarding the MBP at least. Literally all they needed to do was retina screen, upgrade the internals, and add a few USB-C ports. Was anyone ever legitimately inconvenienced by the thickness of the 2010 MBP? I know I was directly inconvenienced by the loss of MagSafe, ethernet, SD card and USB-A, the loss of the FN key row, and loss of serviceability. So much so that my 2010 MBP will very likely be my last Apple purchase ever.
- designcode 8y ago
  After using my 2016 MBP for two years, going back to my 2014 MBP just feels wrong. The keyboard is so much better on the modern ones, so I’d recommend giving it a chance !
  - saagarjha 8y ago
    Wow, your comment was killed within seconds. I’d suggest expanding on your opinion.
    - SirHound 8y ago
      The 2016 keyboard feels, IMO, way better to type of. In comparison the old MBP feels like a much sloppier machine. It’s size was also the only thing putting me off a personal purchase. Reliability issues aside (I haven’t been affected but I assume it’s a matter of time) it is a nicer machine.
  - ksec 8y ago
    It felt wrong because it is not as "stable", but the depth of new keyboard is still "wrong".
  - smsm42 8y ago
    I switched to 2016 and recently back to 2013 (due to 2016's keyboard being broken) and feel exactly the opposite. I am seriously considering whether migrating back is an option (despite them apparently being binary incompatible so I had to rebuild half of my homebrew to avoid those "illegal instruction" errors). I think Apple is fixing what's not broken, and most likely my next notebook won't be an MBP unless they get their act together quickly (which I don't think is very likely, but I keep an open mind until the time comes).
OnlyRepliesToBS 8y ago
How much was this ad?
bogomipz 8y ago
I wonder if the keyboard replacement program Apple announced recently[1] for affected keyboards is replacing them with this newer design? [1] https://www.apple.com/support/keyboard-service-program-for-macbook-and-macbook-pro/ https://www.apple.com/support/keyboard-service-program-for-m...
darth_mastah 8y ago
Apple cast away Steve Jobs and then came begging for him to come back. He did and steered the company from the verge of collapse to a massive worldwide success. Since SJ passed away, Apple is getting worse each year. I guess this might be Jobs' spirit fading away and people thinking they could do better than him. Clearly, they fall short.
smsm42 8y ago
I am not sure what they did, but not only on my new 2016 laptop keyboard felt worse, it also broke around half a year in service (shift key just refused to work. Good think there's two of them, but majorly annoying still). I temporarily went back to a 2013 one and my first thought was "man, the old keyboard feels so much nicer"...

406 points by shritesh 8y ago

tcoff91 8y ago

I’m curious to know if the membrane improves the feel of the keys. I hate how the butterfly switches feel.

pier25 8y ago
Some articles say it feels a bit softer, but I doubt it will make much of a difference.

sillysaurus3 8y ago

My too-expensive 2015 MBP has a nonfunctional keyboard. I have to type using external keyboards, which is quite "fun". Apple wants $500. Dragging an old $10 USB keyboard around with you makes you look like you really like mechanical keyboards. It's been about a year and a half now. I guess you get used to it.

princekolt 8y ago
There is a service program to replace these keyboards for free. They are even refunding people who paid to get their keyboards fixed before the program launched. This is almost a non-issue at this point if you can use a replacement computer while they fix yours.
- protomyth 8y ago
  So, if I send in my computer, does the replacement keyboard have a fix to keep it from breaking again?
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- fzzzy 8y ago
  Not the 2015, only the butterfly keyboards.
- wild_preference 8y ago
  They don’t fix the keyboard. They only “reset” it which means you’ll have to bring it in again once it accumulates enough issues to make it worthwhile. My first key failed within one month. Eventually seven keys came off with ny fingers as I typed. “Non-issue” is comical word choice.
  - iamaelephant 8y ago
    Uhhh this is not a symptom of apple's keyboard issue.
    - mrep 8y ago
      I haven't had a single issue with my late 2013 MBP since I bought it and never had a key stop working with any other keyboard I have ever used. It is 100% an issue with the new keyboard design.
  - gnicholas 8y ago
    In my case, they are sending out to have the top case replaced. Can’t speak for others, but they’re not just kicking the can down the road. The Apple genius also told me that the replacement part won’t be identical to the original keyboard. We’ll see if it’s the new 3rd generation butterfly or just a tweaked 2nd gen.
    - protomyth 8y ago
      That's my big problem with the whole "free" repair. If I send in my computer, what do I get back? Will it have some fix that prevents future problems or will I be SOL in a couple of weeks when one of the keys fails again? > In my case, they are sending out to have the top case replaced. Can’t speak for others, but they’re not just kicking the can down the road. They built the thing so they have no real option other the replacing the whole top case. The in store repair is blowing air into the keyboard and hoping it fixes it.
alfalfasprout 8y ago
They switched to the butterfly keyboard in 2016. Apple fixed my 2016 MBP Touchbar for free. If you're having issues w/ a 2015 model that's unrelated to the issue the author and most others recently have referenced.
mleiphamellis 8y ago
Does Apple not still offer a $310 USD mail in flat rate for any repair not related to damage?
bootlooped 8y ago
Have you considered buying the keyboard module on eBay and doing it yourself?
fouc 8y ago
Why are you trying to feed the 'too expensive' meme?
nicolas_t 8y ago
There's a way to pay a lot less. Ask apple to replace the battery, it costs $219 and because they have to replace the topcase when replacing the battery, you will get a new keyboard. I was in the same situation and Apple also quoted me $500 until I asked to replace the battery.
- akvadrako 8y ago
  He's talking about an older model.
  - okanesen 8y ago
    Doesn't make his point invalid though. My battery on my older rMBP was almost dying and I went to the Apple Store to let them replace the battery and they also completely changed the top including the keyboard, because the battery is attached to it. So if you need to get your keyboard replaced, just ask for a new battery instead.
  - nicolas_t 8y ago
    I have a mbp 2015 retina so same as he has I think, Apple quoted me $500 to change the keyboard but $219 to change the battery which included the topcase. For newer models, no need to do this since keyboard repairs are free.
- sillysaurus3 8y ago
  This is an awesome tip. Thanks for the ray of hope. I'll look into it.
lou1306 8y ago
My early 2015 13'' MBP had the same problem, which is quite well-documented online. Have you tried replacing the keyboard cable? It's a ~€10 fix (say 20, if you don't have a pentalobe screwdriver) and there are lots of tutorials floating around on the web. I agree that too-expensive machines shouldn't fail so badly, but so it goes.

phlyingpenguin 8y ago

I’m confused. Are we supposed to be bandwagon mad that Apple took steps to fix their busted keyboard?

paxys 8y ago
No, we're supposed to be mad because they still refuse to acknowledge that it was a real problem to begin with.
- zaroth 8y ago
  They did announced a repair program, is that not acknowledging the issue?
  - mrep 8y ago
    Is their keyboard replacement program valid for the new laptops and how long does it last? I ask how long because my late 2013 MBP (granted, maxed out top of the line 15 inch) is still running like a complete champ and with how slow cpu/ram is increasing in power these days (mine has 4 cores/16GB ram and now 5 years later, you can only get 6 cores and 32GB of ram) I would expect a top of the line laptop to last a decade before recycling. Laptop keyboards are not something you can easily/cheaply replace because if they fail, it totally screws over the "laptop" feature since now you need to pay to replace the entire keyboard or get an external one. So no, laptop keyboards should have even higher standards for reliability these days and I haven't seen any commitment for these new ones.
    - Nullabillity 8y ago
      > Laptop keyboards are not something you can easily/cheaply replace because if they fail, it totally screws over the "laptop" feature since now you need to pay to replace the entire keyboard or get an external one. There are many laptops with easily replaceable keyboards, this is just typical Apple being Apple.
- tbrock 8y ago

lancewiggs 8y ago

They fixed the keyboard, increased the max memory to 32GB and stuck to their guns on the touch bar - and that all seems reasonable to me. (I’m far more annoyed by Microsoft removing ESC as the dbox cancel key for errors in Excel than the disappearance of the ESC key)

handbanana 8y ago
They didn't really fix it though, did they?
- saagarjha 8y ago
  That’s the question raised here: Apple has said that they’ve made the keyboard “quieter”. The jury’s out on whether that was codewords for fixing the issue.
  - handbanana 8y ago
    I don’t dispute that. My point is they half-assed the fix
    - saagarjha 8y ago
      How do you know that? Have you had one of the new keyboards fail on you already?
- skygazer 8y ago
  This [0] from this morning was interesting. Apparently AppleInsider has been monitoring a number of Genius Bar and authorized service centers for warranty repairs of 2014 thru 2017 laptops. It seems 2016 MBPs had the most keyboard issues, and the 2017 version brought the claims back down to (and below) 2014/15 levels. So, it might be reasonable to say they fixed it last year, in terms of prevalence of issues, although absurd cost to repair issue remains; combined with PR, probably explains this year's mod. [0] https://appleinsider.com/articles/18/07/13/the-2018-macbook-pro-keyboard-doesnt-seem-to-improve-reliability-and-thats-not-great https://appleinsider.com/articles/18/07/13/the-2018-macbook-...

dingo_bat 8y ago

Reading the comment under TFA it seems macbook keyboards have no water resistance? Seems a bit weird for such an expensive device.

1996 8y ago
This reminds me about the drain conduits (aqueducts?) in the thinkpads: liquids poured on the keyboard are diverted away from the electronics
- jcloud_dev 8y ago
  Spill drains? I once spilled an entire cup of tea on my T440 - almost half a liter. Didn't even need to power down the laptop to continue working.
BugsJustFindMe 8y ago
Oh god. Forget about keyboards. I once watched a droplet of water so small that it had to have been affected more by subtle air currents than by gravity hit the edge of the trackpad on a pre-force-touch model and then vanish inside the gap, say around 2011, at which point the trackpad promptly stopped working properly for several days (phantom touches, cursor jumping, dead zones). Be careful out there with the expensive toys, eh?
- stefanfisk 8y ago
  OMG, this reminds me of when I wrecked my MBA after getting out of the shower! A drop of water managed to break the power button such that is was constantly being pressed if no other key was pressed, causing hard shutdowns. BUT - if I used a tooth pick to stick one of the unused F-keys I could continue using the computer, with the downside that certain key combinations stopped working (mostly shift combos). Until I figured out the toothpick fix coding was like a Lost episode in high speed, where all was lost if I forgot to press the button within the allotted timespan.

madeofpalk 8y ago

This is in-line with the the 'under promise and over deliver" mantra I was taught at Apple Retail. Don't make any promises you can't keep, and silently start to fix issues like this. Apple having a hardware fix for their keyboard disasters in this revision is also inline with their repair program they just issued.

NeedMoreTea 8y ago
> Don't make any promises you can't keep What, like delivering a keyboard that actually works reliably? It seems very much the opposite of under-promise, over-deliver in that they promised it and the touch bar would be better. The most that can be said is both are proving hugely subjective and controversial. Now, had they managed to get Thinkpad feel in 2mm travel...
- coldtea 8y ago
  >What, like delivering a keyboard that actually works reliably? Under all other constraints you have. Which is not just simple "put any old working keyboard in there and call it a day".
garmaine 8y ago
> Apple having a hardware fix for their keyboard disasters in this revision is also inline with their repair program they just issued. Yes, they just issued a repair program. Until precisely 3 weeks ago Apple refused to acknowledge the issue and forced customers to pay for costly repairs on their own dime. This patent was filed in September 2016. Apple was fucking lying through their teeth for a full 22 months and have been caught in that lie. Frankly I'm amazed there isn't more outrage at this. How could anyone trust them going forward?
- coldtea 8y ago
  >Yes, they just issued a repair program. Until precisely 3 weeks ago Apple refused to acknowledge the issue and forced customers to pay for costly repairs on their own dime. This patent was filed in September 2016. Apple was fucking lying through their teeth for a full 22 months and have been caught in that lie. Do you expect companies to immediately jump to full repair programs the minute the first few users complain? Especially when people will complain about anything. Of course they'd wait to see if it's a widespread issue.

phil248 8y ago

I'm sorry, but are people actually more concerned with the sound of the keyboard than the arrow keys? It took me a week to get used to the sound. Six months in and I still can't reliably hit the arrow keys. It's as if they're designed to be as difficult as possible.

BugsJustFindMe 8y ago
I guess one kinda important difference is that you can see how bad the up/down arrows are going to be before you buy it. Nobody predicted the failure rate.
saagarjha 8y ago
Ooh, yes, I hate the new arrow keys. The inverted-T arrangement was great for positioning your fingers without looking down, since you could use the empty space to orient yourself.
- bsimpson 8y ago
  I haven't used the new keyboard. Can't you still detect the arrow keys by feeling for the split between up/down?
  - keehun 8y ago
    It really is not the same. Also, the up/down being squished to half their normal height makes things more difficult. In other words, there is just a lot less room for error, now..
    - saagarjha 8y ago
      The up/down arrow keys are sized as they were before. It's the left/right arrow keys that have grown to be twice their normal height.
      - ld00d 8y ago
        On the magic keyboard, the whole bottom row of keys is shorter than they used to be. Not by a lot, but they're shorter. They're now the same height as the keys above.

userbinator 8y ago

The fact that the membrane is still vented (labeled 321 in the diagram) suggests that this will only delay, and not fix the dust ingress problem. Indeed, it could make things worse by creating a tiny pump[1] that draws particles in on each keystroke. I don't know why they didn't vent from the bottom instead, but that's how completely sealed (i.e. waterproof) keypads are vented. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diaphragm_pump https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diaphragm_pump Edit: wow, downvotes? Care to explain...?

npunt 8y ago
Interesting point! Patent is suggesting its a pump but won't cause ingress due to small size. Per the full patent: > [0058] For example, FIG. 3D depicts a third alternative example of the key assembly of FIG. 3A. In this example, the membrane 213 or gasket defines a vent 320, aperture, or other hole in one of the sides 318A. When the key cap 103 is moved towards a depressed position, the membrane 213 compresses gas inside the internal area 319, forcing the gas through the vent 320. This allows the embossed area of the membrane 213 to act as a bellows mechanism, forcing gas in a direction 321. This may force contaminants away from the internal area 319 and/or out of the aperture 210. This may also reduce compression of the membrane 213, reduc- ing how much the membrane 213 affects the force curve response. The specific point about sizing is this next section: > In various implementations, the vent 320 may be configured with sufficiently small dimensions that gas can be forced through the vent 320 without easily allowing liquids, dust, and/or other particles to enter the internal area 319 from the aperture 210. Also here's the Patently Apple analysis [0], which points out that this patent covers three different designs (the vented one being the third). I'm not sure the third design we're discussing is the one implemented in the 2018 models though. [0] http://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/2018/03/a-new-apple-invention-declares-war-on-crumby-keyboards.html http://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/2018/03/a-new-ap...
tinus_hn 8y ago
>> Edit: wow, downvotes? Care to explain...? > Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading. Don’t worry about downvotes, even if you care about the karma points you can at most get to -4 anyway.

basicplus2 8y ago

<Apple has a patent for this exact tech designed to “prevent and/or alleviate contaminant ingress.”> This is a pretty sad day that sonething like this can be patented.. Anything wrapped in a cover can “prevent and/or alleviate contaminant ingress” Does any patent office in the world really think nobody has thought of this before?

skygazer 8y ago
The patent [0] does seem a bit more extensive than just wrap it in a membrane. It discusses using venting/gas pressure (from depressing the key) to expel debris, for instance. [0] http://pdfaiw.uspto.gov/.aiw?PageNum=0&docid=20180068808&IDKey=&HomeUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fpdfaiw.uspto.gov%2F http://pdfaiw.uspto.gov/.aiw?PageNum=0&docid=20180068808&IDK...
JustSomeNobody 8y ago
Sad because the patent wouldn't have been needed in the first place if they didn't feel the need to go so thin.

calimac 8y ago

This is SOP for apple across their product lines.

corey_moncure 8y ago

Was the old keyboard engineering so bad? I feel like Apple has been fixing what wasn't broken since about 2010, regarding the MBP at least. Literally all they needed to do was retina screen, upgrade the internals, and add a few USB-C ports. Was anyone ever legitimately inconvenienced by the thickness of the 2010 MBP? I know I was directly inconvenienced by the loss of MagSafe, ethernet, SD card and USB-A, the loss of the FN key row, and loss of serviceability. So much so that my 2010 MBP will very likely be my last Apple purchase ever.

designcode 8y ago
After using my 2016 MBP for two years, going back to my 2014 MBP just feels wrong. The keyboard is so much better on the modern ones, so I’d recommend giving it a chance !
- saagarjha 8y ago
  Wow, your comment was killed within seconds. I’d suggest expanding on your opinion.
  - SirHound 8y ago
    The 2016 keyboard feels, IMO, way better to type of. In comparison the old MBP feels like a much sloppier machine. It’s size was also the only thing putting me off a personal purchase. Reliability issues aside (I haven’t been affected but I assume it’s a matter of time) it is a nicer machine.
- ksec 8y ago
  It felt wrong because it is not as "stable", but the depth of new keyboard is still "wrong".
- smsm42 8y ago
  I switched to 2016 and recently back to 2013 (due to 2016's keyboard being broken) and feel exactly the opposite. I am seriously considering whether migrating back is an option (despite them apparently being binary incompatible so I had to rebuild half of my homebrew to avoid those "illegal instruction" errors). I think Apple is fixing what's not broken, and most likely my next notebook won't be an MBP unless they get their act together quickly (which I don't think is very likely, but I keep an open mind until the time comes).

OnlyRepliesToBS 8y ago

How much was this ad?

bogomipz 8y ago

I wonder if the keyboard replacement program Apple announced recently[1] for affected keyboards is replacing them with this newer design? [1] https://www.apple.com/support/keyboard-service-program-for-macbook-and-macbook-pro/ https://www.apple.com/support/keyboard-service-program-for-m...

darth_mastah 8y ago

Apple cast away Steve Jobs and then came begging for him to come back. He did and steered the company from the verge of collapse to a massive worldwide success. Since SJ passed away, Apple is getting worse each year. I guess this might be Jobs' spirit fading away and people thinking they could do better than him. Clearly, they fall short.

smsm42 8y ago

I am not sure what they did, but not only on my new 2016 laptop keyboard felt worse, it also broke around half a year in service (shift key just refused to work. Good think there's two of them, but majorly annoying still). I temporarily went back to a 2013 one and my first thought was "man, the old keyboard feels so much nicer"...