12 ms·

Starbucks Bans Plastic Straws, Winds Up Using More Plastic

141 points by swamp40 8y ago

JTbane 8y ago
>Cups for cold drinks still entirely made of plastic >Bans a straw Bravo, SBUX
- ethagnawl 8y ago
  The cups/lids are recyclable and the straws weren't/aren't.
  - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
    But if they actually cared they do something like use a cornstarch cup and make sure they're composted. Or they would guarantee to recycle all their own plastics left in their bins.
  - SamReidHughes 8y ago
    I certainly don't recycle them at home. The recycling bin at any Starbucks gets dumped straight into the trash.
    - pwagland 8y ago
      Do you have a reference for that claim? Starbucks seem to claim that this is true for some stores[1], however that same document also implies that some stores _do_ recycle. [1] https://www.starbucks.com/responsibility/environment/recycling https://www.starbucks.com/responsibility/environment/recycli...
      - SamReidHughes 8y ago
        A Starbucks employee who takes the trash out, who I was jokingly asking if she was going to dump the recycling in the recycling bin. Since people throw just as much trash in there, obviously not.
    - ethagnawl 8y ago
      > I certainly don't recycle them at home. Well, that isn't Starbucks' fault. If the cups _were_ made of bioplastic (or similar), I don't think your "approach" would be any better than it is. As far as I understand it, bioplastics need to be exposed to light/air in order to decompose. If they're sealed in a landfill, there's no benefit to be had -- until the landfill is breached.
      - SamReidHughes 8y ago
        There's nothing wrong with an inert substance in a landfill.
        ethagnawl 8y ago
        Future generations will probably disagree with that statement.
        SamReidHughes 8y ago
        Um, no, they'll be quite happy that the garbage has been centralized in one place.
TheIronYuppie 8y ago
Just FYI, this is a link to a Reason article, which has a very specific partisan leaning. The mistake in this article is that the tops are recyclable plastic, and straws are not. While straws are 0.2-0.5g lighter, the plastic is worse.
- ihuman 8y ago
  How come straws aren't recyclable? Is that type of plastic unusable unusable in straws?
  - ceejayoz 8y ago
    My understanding is they're too small for most recycling facilities - they get sorted as contamination/debris.
- hartator 8y ago
  Cititation needed for myself, but most of current plastic straws, even if they don’t look it, are recyclable.
  - ctrl-j 8y ago
    They absolutely are not recyclable[0] [1]. Almost all curbside programs and most commercial programs will treat straws as "contaminants". Plus they have additional problem of causing significant wildlife impact. [0] - https://livegreen.recyclebank.com/because-you-asked-what-s-so-bad-about-plastic-straws https://livegreen.recyclebank.com/because-you-asked-what-s-s... [1] - https://earth911.com/home/food-beverage/recycling-mystery-plastic-straws/ https://earth911.com/home/food-beverage/recycling-mystery-pl...
  - ceejayoz 8y ago
    Waste Management doesn't accept them, at least not here in Rochester NY. I checked.
- sp332 8y ago
  It also doesn't cite a source for its claim that most plastic in the oceans is microplastics, especially in the Garbage Patches. According to https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2018/03/great-pacific-garbage-patch-plastics-environment/ https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2018/03/great-pacific-ga... a majority of it is abandoned fishing gear. On the other hand, straws do pollute beaches. https://web.archive.org/web/20130813151717/http://www.oceanconservancy.org/our-work/international-coastal-cleanup/top-10-items-found-1.html https://web.archive.org/web/20130813151717/http://www.oceanc... There are a couple of decent points in the article though they are buried at the end. Disabled people are going to be at even more of a disadvantage if straws are not available. And a real cleanup might depend more on helping other countries with their waste disposal systems than on anything we can do ourselves.
vhodges 8y ago
It's my understanding that the new 'sippy' lids are recyclable where as the straws are not. In the Lower Mainland (ie the Vancouver BC area including the Fraser Valley), the elimination of straws at most restaurants has been very quick and it's a bit strange to not get one! I have somewhat sensitive teeth and kind of miss them, but I'll bring my own, probably reusable, if I start to feel strongly about it and right now you can get a straw if you ask for it (though I expect that will go away at some point). Note also paper straws are a thing.
- darkstar999 8y ago
  The article addressed it. Even if they get recycled, they mostly end up in the dump.
  - lern_too_spel 8y ago
    The article "addressed" it with a misleading statement. It said that much of what Californian residents put in the recycle bin isn't recycled. That's because they throw nonrecyclables (like used pizza boxes) into the bin along with their recyclables, and most waste management companies won't separate these items, choosing instead to discard the batch. This is the wrong evidence to give for two reasons: 1. Commercial waste management is different from residential waste management. 2. By removing nonrecyclable plastic straws, Starbucks removed a source of contamination for their plastic recyclables. Thus, the percentage of their plastic that is recycled would have gone up even more under the assumption that their commercial waste management company wasn't already filtering out straws. This is no small error. The author should have known to delve into this more because increasing recyclability was the whole reason Starbucks removed straws with a big hullabaloo. This is par for the course for the poorly named "Reason," which pushes a wishful thinking philosophy that unregulated markets solve all problems. https://reason.com/blog/2016/11/18/is-climate-change-already-solved https://reason.com/blog/2016/11/18/is-climate-change-already...
    - hajile 8y ago
      Even if everything you say is true, the vast majority of starbucks customers either use the drive-through or leave the building with their cups. At that point, it's likely going in that residential recycling that you say is often thrown out wholesale. Instead of ditching the straw, they should switch to a cardboard straw that is biodegradable.
mgbmtl 8y ago
This article is rather cranky and make two assumptions: 1) that plastic is often trashed, not recycled, and it assumes that we will never fix that. 2) exemptions will not be made for people with disabilities. Also, would compostable straws be an option? (assuming they do not end up in the landfill, and only distributed on demand to reduce waste). Fast food better fix itself, or we will end up demonizing the entire industry, for its abundance of litter all over the place and subsidizing the cleanup.
- ravenstine 8y ago
  Even if they are trashed, does it even matter unless they make it into the ocean? It's not like any continent has a shortage on wasteland to build more landfills in.
  - Shivetya 8y ago
    to be honest, I would prefer we find more ways to reduce what is going to the land fill. I have to make a trip with my father soon and it is amazing what we have no alternative other than just dumping it all. the chemical cocktail we are burying as a world is just amazing, all those cleaning chemicals, used oils, paints, and more. I know some regions tried incineration and I would like to think it is more environmentally friendly than simply burying it.
    - justinator 8y ago
      I mean, burning something can remove the problem locally, but then anyone that relies on air to breathe has to deal with whatever chemicals have been released. I'm not trying to side on, "let's just bury everything", but as a thought experiment: Would you rather be in a room where there's a plastic line trash can filled with a variety of trash, or in that same room, where that trash is currently on fire? Think about it this way: If CO2 had a color and producing it by driving a car would lead to purple billowing smoke, cars wouldn't exist, I don't believe. But because it's invisible, we also think the problem is invisible. Sort of like burning trash. At least with a landfill, we see, "Guh, that's just a big pile of trash! That's gross!"
ravenstine 8y ago
Did they "ban" plastic straws, or did they simply stop using them? Maybe my idea of that word is too strict or not with the times. I know, it doesn't make for an exciting headline. Though I would have liked the sound of "Starbucks doesn't want you to know about this technique for drinking your coffee."
- pwagland 8y ago
  You can ban something without being a government. However Starbucks actually said[1] "Starbucks to Eliminate Plastic Straws Globally by 2020". You could argue that Starbucks have banned the sale of plastic straws in their shops, but they are probably not banning the use of them, should a customer bring one in from outside. [1] https://news.starbucks.com/press-releases/starbucks-to-eliminate-plastic-straws-globally-by-2020 https://news.starbucks.com/press-releases/starbucks-to-elimi...
pdq 8y ago
If Starbucks really cared about plastic in the environment, they would offer and encourage patrons to use glass cups when drinking inside the cafe, which can be washed. Maybe even offer a 10 cent discount for using the glasses.
- dawnerd 8y ago
  I thought they already do. Edit: yep. https://www.starbucks.com/responsibility/global-report/environmental-stewardship/reusable-cups https://www.starbucks.com/responsibility/global-report/envir...
  - justinator 8y ago
    Yeah, they sell reusable containers (as you have found). They could go the way of the plastic bags in supermarkets and frame it as a "cup tax" like cities do. Or, erm, I guess that would be the city that does that. Boulder has the Sugar Sweetened Beverage Tax, but I don't think a Frappuccino is taxed, even though it's calories come from mostly sugar.
    - dawnerd 8y ago
      They could use paper cups or even Bioplastics, although those have some pretty negative findings in a few reports.
      - justinator 8y ago
        They do use paper cups in hot drinks; only cold drinks use plastic - although both use plastic tops, and cold drinks use straws. I'm sure there's some sort of coating on the paper cup. I'm not sure why cold coffee served in plastic... but it may be a flipped problem - you probably don't want to serve hot coffee in plastic, as the chemicals will leach out of the plastic itself (yum)
        DanBC 8y ago
        The paper cups have plastic linings which makes them hard to recycle at most places.
eterpstra 8y ago
It may have 0 environmental impact, but at least it's a step in the right direction for reversing our 'disposable society'. Really, though, if you're that concerned about the environment and you JUST HAVE TO HAVE STARBUCKS... bring your own re-usable mug. That's a thing, too. Also, the paper straw claim is pretty dubious. The nearest pizza place to my office has been using paper straws for months. Never had one "collapse" mid drink, even after an hour or more. The author is resorting the the pseudo-journalistic "people are saying" technique to make a BS argument. I'm a person, and I'm saying paper straws are just fine! Why not "quote" me in the article?!?
- kingofhdds 8y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17523329 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17523329
- ibejoeb 8y ago
  You mind sending over the brand name of these non-collapsing paper straws? I've tried dozens and have yet to find a suitable alternative to plastic. And I love that when you order samples, the box of 12 straws comes in plastic packaging that is also shrink-wrapped. There are some pretty robust bamboo straws, but they have the same displeasing mouthfeel.
kokey 8y ago
I can't tell if it's mass insanity or a deliberate distraction campaign to focus on plastic drinking straws. If you look at what percentage these make up in single stream recycling or general waste it is really tiny. This is different from plastic carrier bags, which despite their tiny proportion of the mass and volume of waste it is still a bigger proportion than drinking straws, but more importantly it can escape waste management systems and pollute widely due to being so light and the impact is higher because of the effects from the material's large surface area. I think drinking straws is just an easy target for environmental PR signalling.
- maccard 8y ago
  Articles like this - https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/08/150817-sea-turtles-olive-ridley-marine-debris-ocean-animals-science/ https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/08/150817-sea-turtl... On one hand, yes, it is silly to put so much focus on disposable straws. On the other hand, it's such a low hanging fruit and should be so easy to get rid of. There's just no need for them in 99.9% of cases, and they're simply thrown in a pile to sit for 10000 years after spending 15 minutes in a drink.
jly 8y ago
Recycling of some plastics may be more of a 'feel good' activity, at this point, then of real utility. There is no guarantee that these will be recycled, either. Consumers are used to dumping disposable, one-use cups in the trash. Even plastics that are recycled often find their way to the landfill. Plastics that are recycled can usually not be reused for the same purpose, and eventually do end up in the landfill. The new sippy cup lid is made of polypropylene, which is recyclable but expensive to do as it requires separating. Not all cities accept PP plastics for recyling. It typically needs to be combined with mostly virgin plastic to make new products, which are often less recyclable. Is this better than the straws? Seems like it. But it would be a whole lot better to actually reduce the quantity of plastic.
nwatson 8y ago
Obligatory Penn & Teller recycling-is-bullshit episode: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0771119/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0771119/ As long as plastic disposables actually are disposed of we're in no danger of running out of landfill room. Plastic saved from omitting straws in negligible, this is greenwashing at its silliest. The energy and labor spent separating and recycling most plastics has worse environmental impact than the benefit from plastic saved and re-used.
- lern_too_spel 8y ago
  Obligatory Penn is a fundamentalist libertarian hack who irrationally doesn't believe in climate science. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Penn_%26_Teller:_Bullshit!#Recycling https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Penn_%26_Teller:_Bullshit!#Rec...
kevin_b_er 8y ago
They're recyclable, but consumers don't always recycle. The 3 Rs start with Reduce, but we cannot as long as so much junk plastic continues to be manufactured. Plastics make it possible.
- ceejayoz 8y ago
  They are not recyclable in my area (served by Waste Management).
MattyRad 8y ago
To me it seems like a lot of people are more interested in absolving themselves from guilt than actually coming up with legitimate solutions to plastic waste. Like the article says, straw waste is negligible, it's even fairly obvious that straw waste is negligible, but banning straws will give faux-environmentalists an "easy win" in their minds. There's a dozen better ideas (all listed here on HN recently), ranging from taxing corporate plastic generation, to better recycling filters, to charging extra for plastic products (like some states do with plastic bags). It's unfortunate that this non-solution has gained traction, but "Ban Straws!" acheives a simple-minded satisfaction versus "0.5% tax penalty for large scale corporations exceeding x tonnes of consumption grade plastic!"
- phobosdeimos 8y ago
  Well you could change culture. In my country straws aren't used much. You don't need a straw to drink. In fact I only see expats drink coffee with a straw.
  - smn1234 8y ago
    protecting those pearly whites ;) it helps, whether good dental care or not, to find ways to prevent staining your teeth as part of regular, daily routine
    - myWindoonn 8y ago
      Okay, I'll help you out. Quit caffeine. No more soda, no more coffee, no more stains, no more jitters. Detox is unpleasant but only takes a couple days. The cravings never go away though.
      - toomuchtodo 8y ago
        Coffee is protective of the cardiovascular system, and reduces mortality. https://www.bbc.com/news/health-42081278 https://www.bbc.com/news/health-42081278
bayesian_horse 8y ago
That has to be the straw on the camel's back.
mattnewport 8y ago
The paper straws really are terrible. They've started popping up here in Vancouver even though I'm not sure the ban has fully taken effect yet (I still see plastic straws some of the time). They're bad enough that my response is just to stop ordering drinks that need a straw (anything with a lot of ice in and other cocktail type ingredients like fruit). The idea of reusable straws is so laughably bad I wonder how anyone can seriously propose it as an alternative.
- ibejoeb 8y ago
  I agree with you on paper straws. Reusable stainless steel straws for on-premises consumption is very feasible. Bars have been doing it for many years. The only real problem is that they're very popular and get stolen as a matter of course and they don't wash well when run through ordinary dish. These seem to be reasonably easy problems to solve through incentive and simple equipment.
  - mattnewport 8y ago
    Reusable straws for a bar could work where they provide them and clean them. I was criticizing the idea of "bring your own" reusable straws which people offer up as an alternative. Hygiene is a major concern there, as you say they're hard to clean without special equipment. On premises reusable straws also doesn't solve the Starbucks problem for to-go drinks.
am_i_legal 8y ago
thin bamboo straws may be the answer (and a nice startup idea) ...oh never mind a google search shows someone else is doing that :(
ravenstine 8y ago
I have an idea for an alternative to plastic straws. Maybe someone can create a startup based on it? If you do, don't remember to throw me a bone in terms of money and stock. There's a plant called "horsetail", which is one of the earliest plants that still happens to exist to this day. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equisetum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equisetum Horsetails are very simplistic; basically, they're mostly hollow shoots. Very thin, but rigid and fairly durable. They can vary in size depending on species, but the ones I've seen growing in California happen to be straw-sized. I imagine they can be easily reamed, dried on rods so that they keep their shape, and then cut and packaged. Of course this is hypothetical, so I don't know if it would really work, but I also don't know if this has been tried.
- klipt 8y ago
  They already have compostable "plastic" cups, I assume straws aren't that much harder to make.
snowwolf 8y ago
A few of my local coffee shops are now using compostable cups and lids [1]. The problem is that there is nowhere to dispose of them. Quite a few of the rubbish bins now have general waste and recyclable waste sections, but it would be great if compostable waste bins became more common. Someone like Starbucks getting behind this would help increase the adoption. [1] https://www.vegware.com/ https://www.vegware.com/
kyleblarson 8y ago
Seems like it would be better to incentivize people to use their own mugs. At my local coffee shop if you use your own mug when you purchase a drink they give you a little wooden 'nickel'. They have a series of jars on the counter, each representing a local charity. You drop your wooden nickel into the jar of your choice and they donate a nickel to that charity.
refurb 8y ago
This reminds me of the big push for biodegradable plastics made from corn. Should be better for the environment, right? Well it turned out that the energy requirements were so high to create the plastic that it actually used more oil than regular plastic.[1] It's not until we reach a much higher rate of renewable energy does it actually make sense. [1]https://www.mcdb.ucla.edu/Research/Goldberg/HC70A_W03/pdf/Green_plastics.pdf https://www.mcdb.ucla.edu/Research/Goldberg/HC70A_W03/pdf/Gr...
- driverdan 8y ago
  It's similar to paper vs plastic bags. Paper bags require more energy and fresh water making them worse for the environment.
  - sauwan 8y ago
    That claim probably depends on where they're made...
- rch 8y ago
  The push for compostable plastics is a reasonable response to the insane amount of plastic waste that ends up in the oceans and elsewhere, despite the prevalence of recycling programs. Using more energy is a fair trade even if it's sourced from hydrocarbons initially. It wouldn't be much of a stretch for a compostable plastics company to use "made with 100% renewable energy" as a selling point.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
squozzer 8y ago
I have a co-worker who is Chinese. He has his own set of stainless steel chopsticks. Could we not apply a similar logic to straws, i.e. buy and bring your own? The straws they sell at head shops are a bit too short IMHO. Designer straws, the official fad of 2019.
BurningFrog 8y ago
So if straw bans are not about saving the environment, what are they really about? Perhaps they reflect the relative power of the class that eats in restaurants that serve drinks in regular glasses vs those that gets their drinks in paper mugs with a straw?
gregwebs 8y ago
I like the big picture thinking in this article. There is an aspect not covered in it or in the conversations: littered straws. For litter its better to have a larger lid than a smaller one and a straw. I pick up litter at a nearby creek. Most straws tend to very quickly break down in a brittle way into smaller pieces that become increasingly much more difficult to see and pick up. If I see a glass bottle or a straw, that is an immediate pick up to avoid it getting broken down further.
matco11 8y ago
So they should make new lids from paper (not plastic), like they did for the straws
oliwarner 8y ago
It's not a controversial viewpoint that single-use plastics are killing the planet, both in using up a very limited resource and flooding our oceans and foodchains with plastic debris. Why are they single use? Because they're commercially cheaper to throw away and replace. So straight away, if we're going to legislate anything, it should not be that you cannot use plastics, or a centrally collected tax... It has to a requirement that you pay for the collection and recycling of any plastic your business uses. Start requiring that and you'll see many of the single-use plastic bullshit packaging vanish overnight. Starbucks are making these new lids out of polypropylene. Unlike a straw a lid is very easy to wash and PP suits this just fine. A clear PP is also a lot more valuable to recycling as it is purer, and easier to use than a dark green PP (or polystyrene, I'm not sure what Starbucks are currently using). Should also add that the ~"omg think of the disabled children" comment is ridiculous. People who need straws to drink will a) carry reusable straws with them and b) still be able to get alternative material straws from Starbucks. I've used both wax paper and cellulose straws. They're both fine in cool drinks.
kilo_bravo_3 8y ago
Why is reason.com criticising the rational actions of a rationally-acting rational actor that is voluntarily associating with and responding to the free Market? Because the editors of reason.com believe in neither free markets nor free minds. They exist only to react negatively to anything, no matter what, that can be spun into a nanny-state ghost story in an attempt to drive clicks to their website.
- blang 8y ago
  It gets pretty easy to lose your political compass when groups that you don't like start gaining momentum on a cause. In this case reason.com (free market will solve everything) is very opposed environmentalists (we need government to regulate what big business does to protect the environment). Now environmentalists were able to kick start a movement, hey look straw is in this turtle's nose, and the desired result is to get some big legislation passed to further their cause that would even go beyond the scope of banning straws. Now if this happens reason.com could clearly argue against the causes without compromising their thesis; however, in the meantime a free market solution happened quickly that is in line with the group that they don't like, so instead of arguing their thesis (see we don't need legislation, the free market decides)they are arguing against the groups they oppose. You can see this happen often from both the left and the right.
jacknews 8y ago
In other news: banning plutonium in bombs results in increased overall metal usage, as more shells are required. But, just like shopping bags, bring your own, surely. I spy a whole new market in fashionable re-usable straws.
ggg9990 8y ago
Nothing says virtue signaling harder than forgoing plastic straws while selling your drinks in plastic cups with 20x the plastic.
blank123 8y ago
https://news.starbucks.com/news/starbucks-announces-environmental-milestone https://news.starbucks.com/news/starbucks-announces-environm... Perhaps using more or less plastic is not the point. The point is whether the waste would be recyclable or not. The title seems like a click bait. “By nature, the straw isn’t recyclable and the lid is, so we feel this decision is more sustainable and more socially responsible,” said Chris Milne, director of packaging sourcing for Starbucks.
thatthatis 8y ago
Why not just switch to compostable plastics - CLA and PLA are virtually indistinguishable to customers and not that much more expensive.
creeklover 8y ago
Good lord, you sound like bunch of babies. Grow up. International Coastal Cleanup volunteers have picked up more than half a million straws and stirrers, making straws one of the top ten items on their annual list. Straws pose a real danger to aquatic animals and shorebirds, ending up in their gullets and killing them. As a clean river volunteer, I'm sick of picking up after people too. Living without straws.....waa, waa, waa....if whining about straws is macho, no wonder women are disillusioned with men.

141 points by swamp40 8y ago

JTbane 8y ago

>Cups for cold drinks still entirely made of plastic >Bans a straw Bravo, SBUX

ethagnawl 8y ago
The cups/lids are recyclable and the straws weren't/aren't.
- pbhjpbhj 8y ago
  But if they actually cared they do something like use a cornstarch cup and make sure they're composted. Or they would guarantee to recycle all their own plastics left in their bins.
- SamReidHughes 8y ago
  I certainly don't recycle them at home. The recycling bin at any Starbucks gets dumped straight into the trash.
  - pwagland 8y ago
    Do you have a reference for that claim? Starbucks seem to claim that this is true for some stores[1], however that same document also implies that some stores _do_ recycle. [1] https://www.starbucks.com/responsibility/environment/recycling https://www.starbucks.com/responsibility/environment/recycli...
    - SamReidHughes 8y ago
      A Starbucks employee who takes the trash out, who I was jokingly asking if she was going to dump the recycling in the recycling bin. Since people throw just as much trash in there, obviously not.
  - ethagnawl 8y ago
    > I certainly don't recycle them at home. Well, that isn't Starbucks' fault. If the cups _were_ made of bioplastic (or similar), I don't think your "approach" would be any better than it is. As far as I understand it, bioplastics need to be exposed to light/air in order to decompose. If they're sealed in a landfill, there's no benefit to be had -- until the landfill is breached.
    - SamReidHughes 8y ago
      There's nothing wrong with an inert substance in a landfill.
      - ethagnawl 8y ago
        Future generations will probably disagree with that statement.
        SamReidHughes 8y ago
        Um, no, they'll be quite happy that the garbage has been centralized in one place.

TheIronYuppie 8y ago

Just FYI, this is a link to a Reason article, which has a very specific partisan leaning. The mistake in this article is that the tops are recyclable plastic, and straws are not. While straws are 0.2-0.5g lighter, the plastic is worse.

ihuman 8y ago
How come straws aren't recyclable? Is that type of plastic unusable unusable in straws?
- ceejayoz 8y ago
  My understanding is they're too small for most recycling facilities - they get sorted as contamination/debris.
hartator 8y ago
Cititation needed for myself, but most of current plastic straws, even if they don’t look it, are recyclable.
- ctrl-j 8y ago
  They absolutely are not recyclable[0] [1]. Almost all curbside programs and most commercial programs will treat straws as "contaminants". Plus they have additional problem of causing significant wildlife impact. [0] - https://livegreen.recyclebank.com/because-you-asked-what-s-so-bad-about-plastic-straws https://livegreen.recyclebank.com/because-you-asked-what-s-s... [1] - https://earth911.com/home/food-beverage/recycling-mystery-plastic-straws/ https://earth911.com/home/food-beverage/recycling-mystery-pl...
- ceejayoz 8y ago
  Waste Management doesn't accept them, at least not here in Rochester NY. I checked.
sp332 8y ago
It also doesn't cite a source for its claim that most plastic in the oceans is microplastics, especially in the Garbage Patches. According to https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2018/03/great-pacific-garbage-patch-plastics-environment/ https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2018/03/great-pacific-ga... a majority of it is abandoned fishing gear. On the other hand, straws do pollute beaches. https://web.archive.org/web/20130813151717/http://www.oceanconservancy.org/our-work/international-coastal-cleanup/top-10-items-found-1.html https://web.archive.org/web/20130813151717/http://www.oceanc... There are a couple of decent points in the article though they are buried at the end. Disabled people are going to be at even more of a disadvantage if straws are not available. And a real cleanup might depend more on helping other countries with their waste disposal systems than on anything we can do ourselves.

vhodges 8y ago

It's my understanding that the new 'sippy' lids are recyclable where as the straws are not. In the Lower Mainland (ie the Vancouver BC area including the Fraser Valley), the elimination of straws at most restaurants has been very quick and it's a bit strange to not get one! I have somewhat sensitive teeth and kind of miss them, but I'll bring my own, probably reusable, if I start to feel strongly about it and right now you can get a straw if you ask for it (though I expect that will go away at some point). Note also paper straws are a thing.

darkstar999 8y ago
The article addressed it. Even if they get recycled, they mostly end up in the dump.
- lern_too_spel 8y ago
  The article "addressed" it with a misleading statement. It said that much of what Californian residents put in the recycle bin isn't recycled. That's because they throw nonrecyclables (like used pizza boxes) into the bin along with their recyclables, and most waste management companies won't separate these items, choosing instead to discard the batch. This is the wrong evidence to give for two reasons: 1. Commercial waste management is different from residential waste management. 2. By removing nonrecyclable plastic straws, Starbucks removed a source of contamination for their plastic recyclables. Thus, the percentage of their plastic that is recycled would have gone up even more under the assumption that their commercial waste management company wasn't already filtering out straws. This is no small error. The author should have known to delve into this more because increasing recyclability was the whole reason Starbucks removed straws with a big hullabaloo. This is par for the course for the poorly named "Reason," which pushes a wishful thinking philosophy that unregulated markets solve all problems. https://reason.com/blog/2016/11/18/is-climate-change-already-solved https://reason.com/blog/2016/11/18/is-climate-change-already...
  - hajile 8y ago
    Even if everything you say is true, the vast majority of starbucks customers either use the drive-through or leave the building with their cups. At that point, it's likely going in that residential recycling that you say is often thrown out wholesale. Instead of ditching the straw, they should switch to a cardboard straw that is biodegradable.

mgbmtl 8y ago

This article is rather cranky and make two assumptions: 1) that plastic is often trashed, not recycled, and it assumes that we will never fix that. 2) exemptions will not be made for people with disabilities. Also, would compostable straws be an option? (assuming they do not end up in the landfill, and only distributed on demand to reduce waste). Fast food better fix itself, or we will end up demonizing the entire industry, for its abundance of litter all over the place and subsidizing the cleanup.

ravenstine 8y ago
Even if they are trashed, does it even matter unless they make it into the ocean? It's not like any continent has a shortage on wasteland to build more landfills in.
- Shivetya 8y ago
  to be honest, I would prefer we find more ways to reduce what is going to the land fill. I have to make a trip with my father soon and it is amazing what we have no alternative other than just dumping it all. the chemical cocktail we are burying as a world is just amazing, all those cleaning chemicals, used oils, paints, and more. I know some regions tried incineration and I would like to think it is more environmentally friendly than simply burying it.
  - justinator 8y ago
    I mean, burning something can remove the problem locally, but then anyone that relies on air to breathe has to deal with whatever chemicals have been released. I'm not trying to side on, "let's just bury everything", but as a thought experiment: Would you rather be in a room where there's a plastic line trash can filled with a variety of trash, or in that same room, where that trash is currently on fire? Think about it this way: If CO2 had a color and producing it by driving a car would lead to purple billowing smoke, cars wouldn't exist, I don't believe. But because it's invisible, we also think the problem is invisible. Sort of like burning trash. At least with a landfill, we see, "Guh, that's just a big pile of trash! That's gross!"

ravenstine 8y ago

Did they "ban" plastic straws, or did they simply stop using them? Maybe my idea of that word is too strict or not with the times. I know, it doesn't make for an exciting headline. Though I would have liked the sound of "Starbucks doesn't want you to know about this technique for drinking your coffee."

pwagland 8y ago
You can ban something without being a government. However Starbucks actually said[1] "Starbucks to Eliminate Plastic Straws Globally by 2020". You could argue that Starbucks have banned the sale of plastic straws in their shops, but they are probably not banning the use of them, should a customer bring one in from outside. [1] https://news.starbucks.com/press-releases/starbucks-to-eliminate-plastic-straws-globally-by-2020 https://news.starbucks.com/press-releases/starbucks-to-elimi...

pdq 8y ago

If Starbucks really cared about plastic in the environment, they would offer and encourage patrons to use glass cups when drinking inside the cafe, which can be washed. Maybe even offer a 10 cent discount for using the glasses.

dawnerd 8y ago
I thought they already do. Edit: yep. https://www.starbucks.com/responsibility/global-report/environmental-stewardship/reusable-cups https://www.starbucks.com/responsibility/global-report/envir...
- justinator 8y ago
  Yeah, they sell reusable containers (as you have found). They could go the way of the plastic bags in supermarkets and frame it as a "cup tax" like cities do. Or, erm, I guess that would be the city that does that. Boulder has the Sugar Sweetened Beverage Tax, but I don't think a Frappuccino is taxed, even though it's calories come from mostly sugar.
  - dawnerd 8y ago
    They could use paper cups or even Bioplastics, although those have some pretty negative findings in a few reports.
    - justinator 8y ago
      They do use paper cups in hot drinks; only cold drinks use plastic - although both use plastic tops, and cold drinks use straws. I'm sure there's some sort of coating on the paper cup. I'm not sure why cold coffee served in plastic... but it may be a flipped problem - you probably don't want to serve hot coffee in plastic, as the chemicals will leach out of the plastic itself (yum)
      - DanBC 8y ago
        The paper cups have plastic linings which makes them hard to recycle at most places.

eterpstra 8y ago

It may have 0 environmental impact, but at least it's a step in the right direction for reversing our 'disposable society'. Really, though, if you're that concerned about the environment and you JUST HAVE TO HAVE STARBUCKS... bring your own re-usable mug. That's a thing, too. Also, the paper straw claim is pretty dubious. The nearest pizza place to my office has been using paper straws for months. Never had one "collapse" mid drink, even after an hour or more. The author is resorting the the pseudo-journalistic "people are saying" technique to make a BS argument. I'm a person, and I'm saying paper straws are just fine! Why not "quote" me in the article?!?

kingofhdds 8y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17523329 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17523329
ibejoeb 8y ago
You mind sending over the brand name of these non-collapsing paper straws? I've tried dozens and have yet to find a suitable alternative to plastic. And I love that when you order samples, the box of 12 straws comes in plastic packaging that is also shrink-wrapped. There are some pretty robust bamboo straws, but they have the same displeasing mouthfeel.

kokey 8y ago

I can't tell if it's mass insanity or a deliberate distraction campaign to focus on plastic drinking straws. If you look at what percentage these make up in single stream recycling or general waste it is really tiny. This is different from plastic carrier bags, which despite their tiny proportion of the mass and volume of waste it is still a bigger proportion than drinking straws, but more importantly it can escape waste management systems and pollute widely due to being so light and the impact is higher because of the effects from the material's large surface area. I think drinking straws is just an easy target for environmental PR signalling.

maccard 8y ago
Articles like this - https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/08/150817-sea-turtles-olive-ridley-marine-debris-ocean-animals-science/ https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/08/150817-sea-turtl... On one hand, yes, it is silly to put so much focus on disposable straws. On the other hand, it's such a low hanging fruit and should be so easy to get rid of. There's just no need for them in 99.9% of cases, and they're simply thrown in a pile to sit for 10000 years after spending 15 minutes in a drink.

jly 8y ago

Recycling of some plastics may be more of a 'feel good' activity, at this point, then of real utility. There is no guarantee that these will be recycled, either. Consumers are used to dumping disposable, one-use cups in the trash. Even plastics that are recycled often find their way to the landfill. Plastics that are recycled can usually not be reused for the same purpose, and eventually do end up in the landfill. The new sippy cup lid is made of polypropylene, which is recyclable but expensive to do as it requires separating. Not all cities accept PP plastics for recyling. It typically needs to be combined with mostly virgin plastic to make new products, which are often less recyclable. Is this better than the straws? Seems like it. But it would be a whole lot better to actually reduce the quantity of plastic.

nwatson 8y ago

Obligatory Penn & Teller recycling-is-bullshit episode: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0771119/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0771119/ As long as plastic disposables actually are disposed of we're in no danger of running out of landfill room. Plastic saved from omitting straws in negligible, this is greenwashing at its silliest. The energy and labor spent separating and recycling most plastics has worse environmental impact than the benefit from plastic saved and re-used.

lern_too_spel 8y ago
Obligatory Penn is a fundamentalist libertarian hack who irrationally doesn't believe in climate science. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Penn_%26_Teller:_Bullshit!#Recycling https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Penn_%26_Teller:_Bullshit!#Rec...

kevin_b_er 8y ago

They're recyclable, but consumers don't always recycle. The 3 Rs start with Reduce, but we cannot as long as so much junk plastic continues to be manufactured. Plastics make it possible.

ceejayoz 8y ago
They are not recyclable in my area (served by Waste Management).

MattyRad 8y ago

To me it seems like a lot of people are more interested in absolving themselves from guilt than actually coming up with legitimate solutions to plastic waste. Like the article says, straw waste is negligible, it's even fairly obvious that straw waste is negligible, but banning straws will give faux-environmentalists an "easy win" in their minds. There's a dozen better ideas (all listed here on HN recently), ranging from taxing corporate plastic generation, to better recycling filters, to charging extra for plastic products (like some states do with plastic bags). It's unfortunate that this non-solution has gained traction, but "Ban Straws!" acheives a simple-minded satisfaction versus "0.5% tax penalty for large scale corporations exceeding x tonnes of consumption grade plastic!"

phobosdeimos 8y ago
Well you could change culture. In my country straws aren't used much. You don't need a straw to drink. In fact I only see expats drink coffee with a straw.
- smn1234 8y ago
  protecting those pearly whites ;) it helps, whether good dental care or not, to find ways to prevent staining your teeth as part of regular, daily routine
  - myWindoonn 8y ago
    Okay, I'll help you out. Quit caffeine. No more soda, no more coffee, no more stains, no more jitters. Detox is unpleasant but only takes a couple days. The cravings never go away though.
    - toomuchtodo 8y ago
      Coffee is protective of the cardiovascular system, and reduces mortality. https://www.bbc.com/news/health-42081278 https://www.bbc.com/news/health-42081278

bayesian_horse 8y ago

That has to be the straw on the camel's back.

mattnewport 8y ago

The paper straws really are terrible. They've started popping up here in Vancouver even though I'm not sure the ban has fully taken effect yet (I still see plastic straws some of the time). They're bad enough that my response is just to stop ordering drinks that need a straw (anything with a lot of ice in and other cocktail type ingredients like fruit). The idea of reusable straws is so laughably bad I wonder how anyone can seriously propose it as an alternative.

ibejoeb 8y ago
I agree with you on paper straws. Reusable stainless steel straws for on-premises consumption is very feasible. Bars have been doing it for many years. The only real problem is that they're very popular and get stolen as a matter of course and they don't wash well when run through ordinary dish. These seem to be reasonably easy problems to solve through incentive and simple equipment.
- mattnewport 8y ago
  Reusable straws for a bar could work where they provide them and clean them. I was criticizing the idea of "bring your own" reusable straws which people offer up as an alternative. Hygiene is a major concern there, as you say they're hard to clean without special equipment. On premises reusable straws also doesn't solve the Starbucks problem for to-go drinks.

am_i_legal 8y ago

thin bamboo straws may be the answer (and a nice startup idea) ...oh never mind a google search shows someone else is doing that :(

ravenstine 8y ago

I have an idea for an alternative to plastic straws. Maybe someone can create a startup based on it? If you do, don't remember to throw me a bone in terms of money and stock. There's a plant called "horsetail", which is one of the earliest plants that still happens to exist to this day. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equisetum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equisetum Horsetails are very simplistic; basically, they're mostly hollow shoots. Very thin, but rigid and fairly durable. They can vary in size depending on species, but the ones I've seen growing in California happen to be straw-sized. I imagine they can be easily reamed, dried on rods so that they keep their shape, and then cut and packaged. Of course this is hypothetical, so I don't know if it would really work, but I also don't know if this has been tried.

klipt 8y ago
They already have compostable "plastic" cups, I assume straws aren't that much harder to make.

snowwolf 8y ago

A few of my local coffee shops are now using compostable cups and lids [1]. The problem is that there is nowhere to dispose of them. Quite a few of the rubbish bins now have general waste and recyclable waste sections, but it would be great if compostable waste bins became more common. Someone like Starbucks getting behind this would help increase the adoption. [1] https://www.vegware.com/ https://www.vegware.com/

kyleblarson 8y ago

Seems like it would be better to incentivize people to use their own mugs. At my local coffee shop if you use your own mug when you purchase a drink they give you a little wooden 'nickel'. They have a series of jars on the counter, each representing a local charity. You drop your wooden nickel into the jar of your choice and they donate a nickel to that charity.

refurb 8y ago

This reminds me of the big push for biodegradable plastics made from corn. Should be better for the environment, right? Well it turned out that the energy requirements were so high to create the plastic that it actually used more oil than regular plastic.[1] It's not until we reach a much higher rate of renewable energy does it actually make sense. [1]https://www.mcdb.ucla.edu/Research/Goldberg/HC70A_W03/pdf/Green_plastics.pdf https://www.mcdb.ucla.edu/Research/Goldberg/HC70A_W03/pdf/Gr...

driverdan 8y ago
It's similar to paper vs plastic bags. Paper bags require more energy and fresh water making them worse for the environment.
- sauwan 8y ago
  That claim probably depends on where they're made...
rch 8y ago
The push for compostable plastics is a reasonable response to the insane amount of plastic waste that ends up in the oceans and elsewhere, despite the prevalence of recycling programs. Using more energy is a fair trade even if it's sourced from hydrocarbons initially. It wouldn't be much of a stretch for a compostable plastics company to use "made with 100% renewable energy" as a selling point.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

squozzer 8y ago

I have a co-worker who is Chinese. He has his own set of stainless steel chopsticks. Could we not apply a similar logic to straws, i.e. buy and bring your own? The straws they sell at head shops are a bit too short IMHO. Designer straws, the official fad of 2019.

BurningFrog 8y ago

So if straw bans are not about saving the environment, what are they really about? Perhaps they reflect the relative power of the class that eats in restaurants that serve drinks in regular glasses vs those that gets their drinks in paper mugs with a straw?

gregwebs 8y ago

I like the big picture thinking in this article. There is an aspect not covered in it or in the conversations: littered straws. For litter its better to have a larger lid than a smaller one and a straw. I pick up litter at a nearby creek. Most straws tend to very quickly break down in a brittle way into smaller pieces that become increasingly much more difficult to see and pick up. If I see a glass bottle or a straw, that is an immediate pick up to avoid it getting broken down further.

matco11 8y ago

So they should make new lids from paper (not plastic), like they did for the straws

oliwarner 8y ago

It's not a controversial viewpoint that single-use plastics are killing the planet, both in using up a very limited resource and flooding our oceans and foodchains with plastic debris. Why are they single use? Because they're commercially cheaper to throw away and replace. So straight away, if we're going to legislate anything, it should not be that you cannot use plastics, or a centrally collected tax... It has to a requirement that you pay for the collection and recycling of any plastic your business uses. Start requiring that and you'll see many of the single-use plastic bullshit packaging vanish overnight. Starbucks are making these new lids out of polypropylene. Unlike a straw a lid is very easy to wash and PP suits this just fine. A clear PP is also a lot more valuable to recycling as it is purer, and easier to use than a dark green PP (or polystyrene, I'm not sure what Starbucks are currently using). Should also add that the ~"omg think of the disabled children" comment is ridiculous. People who need straws to drink will a) carry reusable straws with them and b) still be able to get alternative material straws from Starbucks. I've used both wax paper and cellulose straws. They're both fine in cool drinks.

kilo_bravo_3 8y ago

Why is reason.com criticising the rational actions of a rationally-acting rational actor that is voluntarily associating with and responding to the free Market? Because the editors of reason.com believe in neither free markets nor free minds. They exist only to react negatively to anything, no matter what, that can be spun into a nanny-state ghost story in an attempt to drive clicks to their website.

blang 8y ago
It gets pretty easy to lose your political compass when groups that you don't like start gaining momentum on a cause. In this case reason.com (free market will solve everything) is very opposed environmentalists (we need government to regulate what big business does to protect the environment). Now environmentalists were able to kick start a movement, hey look straw is in this turtle's nose, and the desired result is to get some big legislation passed to further their cause that would even go beyond the scope of banning straws. Now if this happens reason.com could clearly argue against the causes without compromising their thesis; however, in the meantime a free market solution happened quickly that is in line with the group that they don't like, so instead of arguing their thesis (see we don't need legislation, the free market decides)they are arguing against the groups they oppose. You can see this happen often from both the left and the right.

jacknews 8y ago

In other news: banning plutonium in bombs results in increased overall metal usage, as more shells are required. But, just like shopping bags, bring your own, surely. I spy a whole new market in fashionable re-usable straws.

ggg9990 8y ago

Nothing says virtue signaling harder than forgoing plastic straws while selling your drinks in plastic cups with 20x the plastic.

blank123 8y ago

https://news.starbucks.com/news/starbucks-announces-environmental-milestone https://news.starbucks.com/news/starbucks-announces-environm... Perhaps using more or less plastic is not the point. The point is whether the waste would be recyclable or not. The title seems like a click bait. “By nature, the straw isn’t recyclable and the lid is, so we feel this decision is more sustainable and more socially responsible,” said Chris Milne, director of packaging sourcing for Starbucks.

thatthatis 8y ago

Why not just switch to compostable plastics - CLA and PLA are virtually indistinguishable to customers and not that much more expensive.

creeklover 8y ago

Good lord, you sound like bunch of babies. Grow up. International Coastal Cleanup volunteers have picked up more than half a million straws and stirrers, making straws one of the top ten items on their annual list. Straws pose a real danger to aquatic animals and shorebirds, ending up in their gullets and killing them. As a clean river volunteer, I'm sick of picking up after people too. Living without straws.....waa, waa, waa....if whining about straws is macho, no wonder women are disillusioned with men.