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Biggest new feature they could add would be to not have an additional screen taking up battery life and shining in my face, unable to be dimmed with f.lux. May

Biggest new feature they could add would be to not have an additional screen taking up battery life and shining in my face, unable to be dimmed with f.lux. Maybe instead we could have a row of keys that provide some sort of function, and maybe a key that allows the user to escape. That would be a pretty useful feature that I can guarantee I would use dozens or hundreds of times a day. I'm considering replacing my MacBook Pro soon, and I might have to drop macOS from my 3 OS lineup. I can't justify an expensive but locked down desktop machine, so if the laptops aren't meeting my needs either then goodbye Apple.

tjohns 8y ago
I know it's trendy to hate on the touchbar... but for what it's worth, I personally find it more useful than the old function keys. Most mac apps don't use function keys as shortcuts, so the old keyboard ended up being used for media keys (volume, brightness, play/pause, etc.). The touch bar gives me a better version of that (I actually get a volume slider), plus more apps actually make use of that space to provide useful shortcuts now. And the scrub bar for media playback is really great when you have audio playing in the background. Yes, you lose tactile feedback. But battery life doesn't seem to be a big problem. At least for me, it's been net positive.
- symfoniq 8y ago
  I noticed a big regression in battery life (25-35%) between my 2013 and 2017 MacBook Pro. I don't know how much the Touch Bar had to do with it, but the 2017 was definitely worse.
  - jclardy 8y ago
    From 2015 to 2016 models the battery capacity dropped from 74 watt hours to 49 watt hours in the new 13" design. The gap was made up for by efficiency gains of the CPU and possibly the display. But the display can also be cranked way brighter now, running it at the full 500 nits will hurt your battery performance for sure. Also if you are running demanding loads it will be worse off as well. The Touch Bar likely sips power, but the real issue with it is the lost battery capacity beneath it (The non-touchbar models have larger batteries at 54 watt hours)
- aquamo 8y ago
  IMHO the touchbar requires more effort and distraction to control the brightness and volume. What previously was one key-press to dim/brighten or mute/volume - all without me having to take my focus from the screen now requires a multi-stages process with no tactile feedback. No thanks. Plus the keyboard will likely have the same issues my 2016 version has. I’ve had keys replaced 4 times already.
  - wild_preference 8y ago
    Also the loss of global prev/pause/next keys was a regression that ensured I ordered the non-touchbar version.
  - modfodder 8y ago
    Muting is still one key press. I especially like the way the toucher handles dual screen brightness, 1 press and it brings up a brightness control for each screen.
  - jclardy 8y ago
    Just to note because it is non-obvious and not documented - both volume and brightness buttons are one touch. You can just tap and drag up/down to immediately adjust, and you don't have to tap, move over to the slider, tap again, then drag.
    - cytzol 8y ago
      Your tip only works for _decreasing_ the volume. If it’s turned all the way down, and you want to turn it up, you can’t tap-and-drag it because the fingerprint sensor gets in the way.
      - 1123581321 8y ago
        You’re right. It’s just two quick drags to maximize the volume. Or one drag to get about 80% there, which covers most situations. The slider stays open when you lift your finger.
      - 8y ago
- wwweston 8y ago
  > I know it's trendy to hate on the touchbar The touchbar hate is not trendy. It's based in specific complaints. If, on the balance of how you evaluate the problems and benefits of the touchbar, it's useful for you, great. That doesn't mean the primary reason people express a distaste for the touchbar is essentially a social fashion.
  - tjohns 8y ago
    I didn't mean to imply that the concerns were unfounded. I know there are real, legitimate complaints with the touchbar. At the same time, I just wanted to point out that there are at least some developers who do prefer it, and that the dislike isn't universal.
    - munk-a 8y ago
      So maybe a nice compromise would be having both... having a touchbar that can be customized in addition to a standard set of function keys.
      - inferiorhuman 8y ago
        Or one model with and one model without. I don't like the touchbar (keys move around and change size depending on context, escape can be triggered by touching areas outside of the escape key, touch bar locks up / crashes) but I'm largely indifferent to it. My primary complaint is the awful butterfly keyboard itself. There's too little travel, the keyboard itself is far too delicate (only took a few weeks for the spacebar to start crapping out on my 2016), and the layout is subpar. My mid-2012 MPB is in need of a replacement, but the butterfly keyboard is a dealbreaker. I'm not thrilled with the touch bar, generally supportive of USB-C (although I miss magsafe), will tolerate the glossy screen and oversized trackpad, and don't give two hoots about the fingerprint reader. If Apple could see fit to provide a current gen MBP with a proper keyboard I'd buy one in a heartbeat. As it is, when my MBP dies for good I'm almost certainly moving to a Linux laptop.
      - mrkstu 8y ago
        That's what I don't understand- there is plenty of room for both, especially on the 15". Just add the Touch Bar strip above the function keys and call it a day...
- reificator 8y ago
  My pie-in-the-sky idealized computer experience is a color e-ink display with a decent framerate. Replacing tactile buttons with a second blinding photon emitter is not progress as far as I'm concerned. I understand all the benefits you quote, and I'm not just complaining because it's "trendy". If it was eink, I wouldn't care at all. But it's another backlit screen shining in my face. No thanks.
  - roryisok 8y ago
    Were you hoping for pixel qi to make it to market with their tech? I was. I so wanted a machine with that screen so I could work outdoors
  - i6Respawns 8y ago
    Marry me
- gilbetron 8y ago
  The touchbar was what I thought was most idiotic before I got my macbook with it, and is the least idiotic thing after I've had my macbook. It is ok, sometimes kinda nice. If they put a physical Esc key on the far left, and a physical Mute key on the far right, and stuck the touchbar between the two, it would be actually very nice, because I agree the function keys are useless on a mac. But the touchbar utility doesn't make up for not having a physical Escape key.
- buu700 8y ago
  Question for someone who has a touchbar: is it possible to add app shortcuts to it (like an extension of the dock)? And what about a dedicated escape button? I use F12 throughout the day to open iTerm and Cmd+F2 to open Spotlight, and the escape key is obviously generally useful. Losing equivalent dedicated buttons/shortcuts would be a dealbreaker, but otherwise I could take or leave the function keys. Edit: If yes to the above, are there any situations in which my configured dedicated buttons might conditionally disappear?
  - tjohns 8y ago
    The escape button shows up in practically all apps, and extends beyond the area indicated by the OLED screen to the edge of the glass. Basically, the entire left 1" of the touchbar is a large dedicated escape key. System Preferences allows you to do some limited customization of what buttons show up, including adding a dedicated Spotlight button. (I replaced the Siri button with that on mine.) See: https://www.howtogeek.com/303733/how-to-add-or-remove-icons-from-your-macbook-pros-touch-bar/ https://www.howtogeek.com/303733/how-to-add-or-remove-icons-... Beyond that, BetterTouchTool allows more advanced customization of the touchbar. I've never used it, but it's worth a look. See: https://www.howtogeek.com/307468/how-to-add-custom-buttons-to-the-macbook-pro-touch-bar/ https://www.howtogeek.com/307468/how-to-add-custom-buttons-t... and https://folivora.ai/ https://folivora.ai/
    - buu700 8y ago
      Interesting, thanks! Sad that it requires third-party software to add the iTerm shortcut (which was my biggest concern since I use it so often), but sounds like the touchbar will probably be a net positive, or at least not a dealbreaker when I do eventually upgrade.
    - ronyeh 8y ago
      I'm a developer and BetterTouchTool is great. I have terminal shortcuts and others bound to touch bar buttons. BTT even lets you run bash scripts from the touch bar.
    - jrochkind1 8y ago
- TheRealDunkirk 8y ago
  The majority of my use of my MBPr is in clamshell mode, with a large external monitor, and a mechanical keyboard. Even for people who use theirs open, beside a large monitor, it's usually on a stand. So a Touch Bar is either pointless, or so unwieldy as to be useless, in these situations, respectively.
- roryisok 8y ago
  Maybe I'm a backwards person but I barely use escape at all. I do however use the function keys, all day, every day. I have them mapped to various apps for screengrabbing, batch copy and paste of files, rename etc. Apps like keymaestro let me add extra functionality to these "spare" keys and I don't want then replaced by any damn touchbar
  - Eric_WVGG 8y ago
    In my experience, adding those functions to the Touch Bar via Better Touch Tool was just as easy as making f-key bindings, plus I get easy and visibly-distinguishable per-app bindings. The Touch Bar is great, Apple just isn't going far enough.
    - roryisok 8y ago
      visibly distinguishable is great but IMO tactilely distinguishable is more important
- on_and_off 8y ago
  >Yes, you lose tactile feedback That's the only part I really can't lose. I like the volume slider fwiw but the regular ones worked fine too.. it is a small bonus with a massive drawback .. of course I don't like it. Not to mention that I don't ever look at my keyboard when typing, so touchbar is just a annoying glow at the periphery of my vision.
  - iaml 8y ago
    There is an app called HapticKey that triggers vibration when you touch tb.
- Cd00d 8y ago
  I wonder why they don't just through haptics into the touchbar to diminish the tactile complaint? My Galaxy S9 has touch haptics that feel rather nice.
  - theslurmmustflo 8y ago
    Smartphones have less mass to move. The touchpad is haptic but the Taptic chip is fairly large and the whole pad is kind of suspended so that you can feel the vibrations. I bet they will do this but it might be tricky since it has a display in it.
  - cytzol 8y ago
    I use HapticKey, which makes the Touch Bar slightly less awful by clicking the trackpad when you touch it: https://github.com/niw/HapticKey https://github.com/niw/HapticKey
- zerr 8y ago
  > Most mac apps don't use function keys as shortcuts Many buy MBPs for the perceived quality of hardware, and install Windows or Linux as their primary OS.
  - DennisAleynikov 8y ago
    in bootcamp the touchbar continues to function independently and acts like the function row of keys
- makecheck 8y ago
  Adding media keys did not require the loss of Function keys (“fn” toggle) so low use in apps was not a reason to remove keys entirely. How is a touch volume slider better? Using modifier keys you can achieve any level of precision from keyboard volume keys, without looking down to find and watch what you tap. There are also slider controls already, using the mouse (both in the menu bar and System Preferences).
- api 8y ago
  My gripe with it is that it's not sufficiently customizable. If it were heavily customizable it could be pretty useful.
- yonilevy 8y ago
  As a heavy IntelliJ user - I use the function keys all the time. Some examples: F1: show file in project view, F2/Shift F2: next/previous error, Ctrl+F2: stop process, F3/Shift F3: find next/previous, F6: move/rename, different F7 variations: find usages, F9/F10: run/debug options, also F8-F10 - step over/into/out/continue, F12 - toggle maximize editor, etc. I don't understand what I'm supposed to do with a touchbar, or how to otherwise remap all of these shortcuts... Sticking to my 2015 MBP for now, but I really hope Apple get their act together and release a developer-friendly model (because otherwise I'm a huge fan).
  - gilescope2 8y ago
    Intellij could support the touchbar - I was going to say it's a great way to do debugging until I found that using arrow keys + modifier is a fantastic way to control the debugger. (up=continue, left=step out, right=step in, down=step)
    - earlz 8y ago
      Why have I never heard of this arrow key method of debugging? That would be much more natural than the typical "fn+shift+F8 is step" stuff
    - thought_alarm 8y ago
      I use Control+S,Z,X,C for debugging, mapping Caps Lock to Control. (S=continue, Z=Step Over, X=Step In, C=Step Out). It keeps my right hand free for mousing around, drinking coffee, etc. What modifier are you using for the arrow keys? Aren't they all taken already?
    - polyx 8y ago
      They already do, in the 2018.2 EAP there is support for touchbar. Since it's already in RC state I think the stable version will be out in a couple of weeks.
  - iNate2000 8y ago
    Nobody needs to re-map anything, if IntelliJ would just support the touch bar, then they could keep the same shortcuts and rename the keys from "F8" to "Step Over"
- ouid 8y ago
  Imagine not being able to mute your sound in public because your finger doesn't have enough capacitance for some reason.
  - 1123581321 8y ago
    The sound can also be muted by clicking the sound icon in the menu bar. There is a volume slider there.
    - ouid 8y ago
      Trackpads are capacitive, and that’s much too slow anyway. Often your menu will be hidden, or inaccessible until all of your processes have resumed
      - 1123581321 8y ago
        True. I can’t think of many situations where a laptop can be used, but capacitive touch cant, and the laptop can’t be switched off or the lid closed, and the noise will would cause a problem. I guess I thought that would happen, I’d keep a headphone jack handy as a silencer. I don’t think the utility in an unlikely situation outweighs the balance of use.
        ouid 8y ago
        closing the lid doesn't mute the sound as a hardware switch. Lots of sounds will continue to play through the closing of the lid, including sounds for video. For an example of when capacitive touch wonts work but the laptop would, simply get your finger a little bit wet. The scenario I'm imagining is opening your computer only to discover that had closed it in the middle of a youtube video or something the night before, and it just continues playing where it left off. A crime of the highest order in OS design, to be sure, but hardly a rare occurrence.
        1123581321 8y ago
        Cmd+Q would be my first action in that situation (which I’ve been in!) But I agree not everyone knows that. I was imagining someone wearing a glove, but you are right that a certain amount of water will start causing issues. I think it would be difficult to pool enough water on both the touch bar and the trackpad outside of a catastrophe. I can’t get sound to continue emitting after closing the lid. I’m sure an app can be developed to make that happen, but it wouldn’t be something commonly used. The most likely candidate seems to me to be something like audio performance software, but a person in that situation wouldn’t be using the speakers as an out and would be used to quickly dealing with software/hardware quirks. Researching this conversation has been fun. :)
roryisok 8y ago
When I'm wearing my cynic hat, the touch bar is the beginning of a plot to replace our physical keys with another screen with an image of keys. The 2030 MacBook will basically be two iPads taped together
- theslurmmustflo 8y ago
  I think so too, especially with further improvements to the Taptic Engine. This might also lead to a more “solid state” device with less mechanical parts to worry about. I wonder if there will be a backlash or if we will all get used to it.
  - utopcell 8y ago
    I think that would be horrible. Yoga book has already brought this idea to market, and typing on it is a nightmare.
    - munk-a 8y ago
      It's okay, if you don't like it you can just plug an external keyboard into the dongle you have plugged into the dongle you have plugged into the only USB-C port they plan on offering!
    - ehsanu1 8y ago
      It's all about the implementation/execution. We'd need some new technology to really make this work well.
      - utopcell 8y ago
        There was this [1] a few years back, not sure what happened to it. [1] https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=%23&ved=0ahUKEwibl66mwpvcAhWCh1QKHTqbAbUQwqsBCCgwAA&usg=AOvVaw0VTJzWxrN8ZFOD4xbU2nov https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=%23&ved...
    - briandear 8y ago
aequitas 8y ago
My biggest problem with the touchbar is that I would only be able to use it half of the time. Because when I dock my laptop it is either closed and tucked in the corner of my desk, or perched on a laptop stand. Either way the touchbar is to far away to be of any benefit. So unless Apple comes with a (bluetooth) keyboard with touchbar, I cannot integrate it into my daily workflow.
jhaile 8y ago
My biggest problem with the touchbar is the escape key. I hate not having tactile feeling for a key I use on a regular basis. I'm constantly missing it or hitting something on accident.
- themagician 8y ago
  This is the only problem I have with it too. I MUCH prefer having the Touch Bar. Even though I don't use it frequently, it comes in very handy for certain things, and I use it far more often than the function keys. Having a virtual escape key is just strange though. I wouldn't want to go back to a MacBook without a Touch Bar, but if they just cut out another button on the left like they have on the right for the power button and made it an escape key it would be perfect. As it is, the virtual escape key is actually pretty padded to the right. You could replace it with a hard key and not actually lose any space. You might actually gain a few usable pixels.
- acchow 8y ago
  I've had Caps Lock mapped to escape for years. You used to need some tool to do this, but now you can do it right inside Keyboard settings "Modifier Keys". Make sure you choose the real keyboard if you also have a Yubikey plugged in :)
  - sic1 8y ago
    I map caplocks to control, I find the default control button in a weird spot to always be moving my pinky to (and I hardly have a use for caplocks, like yourself). However, after you said this, it reminded me of the comment I caught once where someone had their caplocks setup to be esc on click, or control on hold... no idea how he had it setup, though I'm curious once again.
    - pseudalopex 8y ago
      Karabiner Elements can do that.
    - narimiran 8y ago
fit2rule 8y ago
I've had a touchbar-mBP since release day, and I've only just recently found a use for the touchbar: in Zoom, to start recording the session, and in iTerm to change the colours. Just this week I noticed with surprise that I'm actually using the touchbar 'productively' in this fashion - but its been a long time coming. However I'd throw away this newfound appreciation of the touchBar in an instant, if both of these apps just .. you know .. had icons for the task. Maybe some sort of strip of icons, even ...
ClownsAbound 8y ago
What a pathetic reason to not like something. You know you can run that slick hack to coop the Touch Bar right? You can put just about anything on it, I find a mix app buttons + weather + time/date + volume to be pretty rad. I'm not buying your complaint about F.lux at all, it's simply not that bright or intrusive.
fcbrooklyn 8y ago
I had to replace my 2015 MBP last week, because the kb started failing (it wasn't one of the ones eligible for a free repair, sadly, and I can't live without a machine for however long it takes them to fix it anyway). I was really torn, because although I could reluctantly live without the function keys, the escape key is a complete dealbreaker. After much debate I decided to take a chance on a surface book. I figured I'd try it, try and get my dev environment in a decent place, and see how I felt about windows after 30 days, with the idea that I might have to return it if things didn't work out. I'm 6 days in, and I can pretty safely say there's no way I'm going back to apple. Windows has managed not to suck at all, my dev environment is arguably better than what I had before, and I'm absolutely loving the machine itself. Most joyful new laptop experience in many years.
- some_account 8y ago
  Really? Window sucks for me even before I log in first time, with stuff like "wait while we are setting you up, just relax...". I switched to Linux and felt the same feeling you did though. Happiness to be back in a nice new system where I feel at home!
  - DennisAleynikov 8y ago
    I was extremely unsatisfied with the promise and then the delivery of my surface pro, ended up selling it to a friend with lighter computing needs. The touch bar macbook seems pretty useful itself considering how insanely good its IO is (4 thunderbolt ports!!!). I haven't been able to use it as much and im waiting for better eGPU options to come out. in the mean time I'm stuck just like you in the world of linux. My primary desktop pc for the past 9 months was my galaxy note 8 with a usb c to hdmi adapter. it has an incredible chromebook like UI when docked and has all the linux tools i need! I've even been able to write an app and submit it to the app store all from there. You really cant go back after you've tried one device life and it makes filming and editing content for my youtube channel seamless since video never leaves the 256gb SD card inside my phone. Huawei has a similar mode and i cant wait for google to support it. they do natively support windowed mode and moving apps freely but i mean just add a chromebook ui to the screen when u dock a pixel 3 and you will be golden :)
dbg31415 8y ago
Job gave me a MBP with a touch bar. In the past I've been able to grab an older MBP 15" but they were out of them. So... a small slice of electrical tape solved the issue. Ugh, it's ghetto. It's the worst invention. Anyone who worked on it should feel bad about their existence -- like drawing mustaches on the Mona Lisa. The 2013 MBP was a perfect laptop (for the time). It's nice they finally got around to adding more RAM... that's about all I would have wanted to change on the 2013 MBP.
- jonplackett 8y ago
  agreed. happily typing on my 2013 now. best laptop in existence. and it cost half as much.
itbeho 8y ago
I’m tempted to start a movement called Tape the Touchbar™. Just put a stylish piece of black electrical tape over it and pretend it’s not there. Seriously though, I share your frustration in regards to both f.lux and external monitor/stand use. It would be nice to be able to dynamically disable the Touchbar in a user configurable way.
omarforgotpwd 8y ago
They've got one without the touch bar.
briandear 8y ago
Can’t you use Night Shift or the built in dimming? Not sure I understand what you are saying. (Not arguing, just genuinely interested in the complaint.)
- TimTheTinker 8y ago
  The Touch Bar can't be dimmed below a certain threshold (either manually or programmatically). Normally we use f.lux or Brightness Slider to dim the main display, but touch bar brightness can't be controlled. Makes it hard to work late at night without putting electrical tape over it.
  - askmike 8y ago
    I never had this problem. But if it's really an issue you can use betterTouchTool or similarly to simply remove all buttons so it doesn't render anything.
stanislavb 8y ago
Yeah, it's sad. I was hoping for a version without a touch bar too :(. I'd also say that these new Macs are the most unpopular ones among devs. It's just that we are so used to MacOS :|
deleted 8y ago
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TimTheTinker 8y ago
My biggest gripes: - Dongles still needed - Touch bar can't be dimmed
intopieces 8y ago
Re: the function row, I wish instead of the OLED strip they would have implemented something like the Optimus Popularis: https://store.artlebedev.com/electronics/devices/optimus-popularis/ https://store.artlebedev.com/electronics/devices/optimus-pop... To me, this is the best of both worlds. Just put the default keys to start and then let your users pick if they want to. I prefer individual keys to tapping a screen, which is why I use a laptop and not an iPad.
- jonplackett 8y ago
  yes - this is a damn fine idea. i'm always accidentally resting my finger on the down brightness key and only notice when the screen suddenly goes dark. keys that press = good idea.
patte 8y ago
I turned away from the mac, first because the HW, second because prop. software is creaping me out more and more. I bought a lenovo T480 (big battery, higres screen, good keyboard, only the trackpad is shitty) and I installed the shiny ubuntu 18.04 and I have to say, it's the best setup I ever used. It's super stable, with some tweeking(https://github.com/erpalma/lenovo-throttling-fix https://github.com/erpalma/lenovo-throttling-fix) it's crazy fast, 7h+ battery life when doing web development. Even the LG UltraFine works great under linux. I never regretted it.
- aogl 8y ago
  I've been thinking about doing this too for some time now. Just not convinced which Lenovo to go for..
  - thewizardofaus 8y ago
    Former macbook pro user here. I currently use a T480 with the 72wHr battery. Web Development and programming I pull about 20+ hours of battery life. Using i3wm under Fedora. Absolutely gorgeous machine.
    - exposer 8y ago
      Can you use the switchable graphics or did you get the model without a gpu?
      - patte 8y ago
        I got the one with the MX150 dGPU, because there was no other option from the students program I bought it from. But I personally would go for the one without a dGPU. Even-tough the dGPU version uses 2 heatpipes, there are thermal issues. As soon as the GPU hits 70°C, the cpu-package gets power throtteled to 5W... so it's not usable for graphic intense workloads. I would choose the one without the dGPU, manually buy and install the 2heatpipe cooler for better CPU temperatures and use a eGPU if I really needed the power. For the time being I just disabled the dGPU under linux with bbswitch. I'm still able to watch 4K movies with 60fps, no problem. [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/8flj0i/t480_power_limit_throttles_down_to_5_watts_on/ https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/8flj0i/t480_power...
fouc 8y ago
I used f.lux for 2-3 years. Then I stopped, and I haven't used f.lux for 2 years now. The problem with f.lux is that it makes reading on the computer at night TOO comfortable. I was consistently staying up way past my bed time, and suffering for it. Removing f.lux made it easier to go to sleep earlier. Sometimes comfort isn't worth it. I prefer getting my sleep.
greggman 8y ago
for those in this thread excusing the touch bar how would you feel if apple replaced the entire keyboard with a large touch surface like typing on an iPad. Great idea? Can't wait? Or Ugh?
- whywhywhywhy 8y ago
  Keep seeing people on Twitter suggesting this as a fix to the unreliable keyboard, completely ignoring that the keyboards were never unreliable until the Butterfly Switches existed. As for the idea, well if touch keyboards are so great why have they invested so much effort in adding a physical keyboard to their Pro touch devices.

tjohns 8y ago

I know it's trendy to hate on the touchbar... but for what it's worth, I personally find it more useful than the old function keys. Most mac apps don't use function keys as shortcuts, so the old keyboard ended up being used for media keys (volume, brightness, play/pause, etc.). The touch bar gives me a better version of that (I actually get a volume slider), plus more apps actually make use of that space to provide useful shortcuts now. And the scrub bar for media playback is really great when you have audio playing in the background. Yes, you lose tactile feedback. But battery life doesn't seem to be a big problem. At least for me, it's been net positive.

symfoniq 8y ago
I noticed a big regression in battery life (25-35%) between my 2013 and 2017 MacBook Pro. I don't know how much the Touch Bar had to do with it, but the 2017 was definitely worse.
- jclardy 8y ago
  From 2015 to 2016 models the battery capacity dropped from 74 watt hours to 49 watt hours in the new 13" design. The gap was made up for by efficiency gains of the CPU and possibly the display. But the display can also be cranked way brighter now, running it at the full 500 nits will hurt your battery performance for sure. Also if you are running demanding loads it will be worse off as well. The Touch Bar likely sips power, but the real issue with it is the lost battery capacity beneath it (The non-touchbar models have larger batteries at 54 watt hours)
aquamo 8y ago
IMHO the touchbar requires more effort and distraction to control the brightness and volume. What previously was one key-press to dim/brighten or mute/volume - all without me having to take my focus from the screen now requires a multi-stages process with no tactile feedback. No thanks. Plus the keyboard will likely have the same issues my 2016 version has. I’ve had keys replaced 4 times already.
- wild_preference 8y ago
  Also the loss of global prev/pause/next keys was a regression that ensured I ordered the non-touchbar version.
- modfodder 8y ago
  Muting is still one key press. I especially like the way the toucher handles dual screen brightness, 1 press and it brings up a brightness control for each screen.
- jclardy 8y ago
  Just to note because it is non-obvious and not documented - both volume and brightness buttons are one touch. You can just tap and drag up/down to immediately adjust, and you don't have to tap, move over to the slider, tap again, then drag.
  - cytzol 8y ago
    Your tip only works for _decreasing_ the volume. If it’s turned all the way down, and you want to turn it up, you can’t tap-and-drag it because the fingerprint sensor gets in the way.
    - 1123581321 8y ago
      You’re right. It’s just two quick drags to maximize the volume. Or one drag to get about 80% there, which covers most situations. The slider stays open when you lift your finger.
    - 8y ago
wwweston 8y ago
> I know it's trendy to hate on the touchbar The touchbar hate is not trendy. It's based in specific complaints. If, on the balance of how you evaluate the problems and benefits of the touchbar, it's useful for you, great. That doesn't mean the primary reason people express a distaste for the touchbar is essentially a social fashion.
- tjohns 8y ago
  I didn't mean to imply that the concerns were unfounded. I know there are real, legitimate complaints with the touchbar. At the same time, I just wanted to point out that there are at least some developers who do prefer it, and that the dislike isn't universal.
  - munk-a 8y ago
    So maybe a nice compromise would be having both... having a touchbar that can be customized in addition to a standard set of function keys.
    - inferiorhuman 8y ago
      Or one model with and one model without. I don't like the touchbar (keys move around and change size depending on context, escape can be triggered by touching areas outside of the escape key, touch bar locks up / crashes) but I'm largely indifferent to it. My primary complaint is the awful butterfly keyboard itself. There's too little travel, the keyboard itself is far too delicate (only took a few weeks for the spacebar to start crapping out on my 2016), and the layout is subpar. My mid-2012 MPB is in need of a replacement, but the butterfly keyboard is a dealbreaker. I'm not thrilled with the touch bar, generally supportive of USB-C (although I miss magsafe), will tolerate the glossy screen and oversized trackpad, and don't give two hoots about the fingerprint reader. If Apple could see fit to provide a current gen MBP with a proper keyboard I'd buy one in a heartbeat. As it is, when my MBP dies for good I'm almost certainly moving to a Linux laptop.
    - mrkstu 8y ago
      That's what I don't understand- there is plenty of room for both, especially on the 15". Just add the Touch Bar strip above the function keys and call it a day...
reificator 8y ago
My pie-in-the-sky idealized computer experience is a color e-ink display with a decent framerate. Replacing tactile buttons with a second blinding photon emitter is not progress as far as I'm concerned. I understand all the benefits you quote, and I'm not just complaining because it's "trendy". If it was eink, I wouldn't care at all. But it's another backlit screen shining in my face. No thanks.
- roryisok 8y ago
  Were you hoping for pixel qi to make it to market with their tech? I was. I so wanted a machine with that screen so I could work outdoors
- i6Respawns 8y ago
  Marry me
gilbetron 8y ago
The touchbar was what I thought was most idiotic before I got my macbook with it, and is the least idiotic thing after I've had my macbook. It is ok, sometimes kinda nice. If they put a physical Esc key on the far left, and a physical Mute key on the far right, and stuck the touchbar between the two, it would be actually very nice, because I agree the function keys are useless on a mac. But the touchbar utility doesn't make up for not having a physical Escape key.
buu700 8y ago
Question for someone who has a touchbar: is it possible to add app shortcuts to it (like an extension of the dock)? And what about a dedicated escape button? I use F12 throughout the day to open iTerm and Cmd+F2 to open Spotlight, and the escape key is obviously generally useful. Losing equivalent dedicated buttons/shortcuts would be a dealbreaker, but otherwise I could take or leave the function keys. Edit: If yes to the above, are there any situations in which my configured dedicated buttons might conditionally disappear?
- tjohns 8y ago
  The escape button shows up in practically all apps, and extends beyond the area indicated by the OLED screen to the edge of the glass. Basically, the entire left 1" of the touchbar is a large dedicated escape key. System Preferences allows you to do some limited customization of what buttons show up, including adding a dedicated Spotlight button. (I replaced the Siri button with that on mine.) See: https://www.howtogeek.com/303733/how-to-add-or-remove-icons-from-your-macbook-pros-touch-bar/ https://www.howtogeek.com/303733/how-to-add-or-remove-icons-... Beyond that, BetterTouchTool allows more advanced customization of the touchbar. I've never used it, but it's worth a look. See: https://www.howtogeek.com/307468/how-to-add-custom-buttons-to-the-macbook-pro-touch-bar/ https://www.howtogeek.com/307468/how-to-add-custom-buttons-t... and https://folivora.ai/ https://folivora.ai/
  - buu700 8y ago
    Interesting, thanks! Sad that it requires third-party software to add the iTerm shortcut (which was my biggest concern since I use it so often), but sounds like the touchbar will probably be a net positive, or at least not a dealbreaker when I do eventually upgrade.
  - ronyeh 8y ago
    I'm a developer and BetterTouchTool is great. I have terminal shortcuts and others bound to touch bar buttons. BTT even lets you run bash scripts from the touch bar.
  - jrochkind1 8y ago
TheRealDunkirk 8y ago
The majority of my use of my MBPr is in clamshell mode, with a large external monitor, and a mechanical keyboard. Even for people who use theirs open, beside a large monitor, it's usually on a stand. So a Touch Bar is either pointless, or so unwieldy as to be useless, in these situations, respectively.
roryisok 8y ago
Maybe I'm a backwards person but I barely use escape at all. I do however use the function keys, all day, every day. I have them mapped to various apps for screengrabbing, batch copy and paste of files, rename etc. Apps like keymaestro let me add extra functionality to these "spare" keys and I don't want then replaced by any damn touchbar
- Eric_WVGG 8y ago
  In my experience, adding those functions to the Touch Bar via Better Touch Tool was just as easy as making f-key bindings, plus I get easy and visibly-distinguishable per-app bindings. The Touch Bar is great, Apple just isn't going far enough.
  - roryisok 8y ago
    visibly distinguishable is great but IMO tactilely distinguishable is more important
on_and_off 8y ago
>Yes, you lose tactile feedback That's the only part I really can't lose. I like the volume slider fwiw but the regular ones worked fine too.. it is a small bonus with a massive drawback .. of course I don't like it. Not to mention that I don't ever look at my keyboard when typing, so touchbar is just a annoying glow at the periphery of my vision.
- iaml 8y ago
  There is an app called HapticKey that triggers vibration when you touch tb.
Cd00d 8y ago
I wonder why they don't just through haptics into the touchbar to diminish the tactile complaint? My Galaxy S9 has touch haptics that feel rather nice.
- theslurmmustflo 8y ago
  Smartphones have less mass to move. The touchpad is haptic but the Taptic chip is fairly large and the whole pad is kind of suspended so that you can feel the vibrations. I bet they will do this but it might be tricky since it has a display in it.
- cytzol 8y ago
  I use HapticKey, which makes the Touch Bar slightly less awful by clicking the trackpad when you touch it: https://github.com/niw/HapticKey https://github.com/niw/HapticKey
zerr 8y ago
> Most mac apps don't use function keys as shortcuts Many buy MBPs for the perceived quality of hardware, and install Windows or Linux as their primary OS.
- DennisAleynikov 8y ago
  in bootcamp the touchbar continues to function independently and acts like the function row of keys
makecheck 8y ago
Adding media keys did not require the loss of Function keys (“fn” toggle) so low use in apps was not a reason to remove keys entirely. How is a touch volume slider better? Using modifier keys you can achieve any level of precision from keyboard volume keys, without looking down to find and watch what you tap. There are also slider controls already, using the mouse (both in the menu bar and System Preferences).
api 8y ago
My gripe with it is that it's not sufficiently customizable. If it were heavily customizable it could be pretty useful.
yonilevy 8y ago
As a heavy IntelliJ user - I use the function keys all the time. Some examples: F1: show file in project view, F2/Shift F2: next/previous error, Ctrl+F2: stop process, F3/Shift F3: find next/previous, F6: move/rename, different F7 variations: find usages, F9/F10: run/debug options, also F8-F10 - step over/into/out/continue, F12 - toggle maximize editor, etc. I don't understand what I'm supposed to do with a touchbar, or how to otherwise remap all of these shortcuts... Sticking to my 2015 MBP for now, but I really hope Apple get their act together and release a developer-friendly model (because otherwise I'm a huge fan).
- gilescope2 8y ago
  Intellij could support the touchbar - I was going to say it's a great way to do debugging until I found that using arrow keys + modifier is a fantastic way to control the debugger. (up=continue, left=step out, right=step in, down=step)
  - earlz 8y ago
    Why have I never heard of this arrow key method of debugging? That would be much more natural than the typical "fn+shift+F8 is step" stuff
  - thought_alarm 8y ago
    I use Control+S,Z,X,C for debugging, mapping Caps Lock to Control. (S=continue, Z=Step Over, X=Step In, C=Step Out). It keeps my right hand free for mousing around, drinking coffee, etc. What modifier are you using for the arrow keys? Aren't they all taken already?
  - polyx 8y ago
    They already do, in the 2018.2 EAP there is support for touchbar. Since it's already in RC state I think the stable version will be out in a couple of weeks.
- iNate2000 8y ago
  Nobody needs to re-map anything, if IntelliJ would just support the touch bar, then they could keep the same shortcuts and rename the keys from "F8" to "Step Over"
ouid 8y ago
Imagine not being able to mute your sound in public because your finger doesn't have enough capacitance for some reason.
- 1123581321 8y ago
  The sound can also be muted by clicking the sound icon in the menu bar. There is a volume slider there.
  - ouid 8y ago
    Trackpads are capacitive, and that’s much too slow anyway. Often your menu will be hidden, or inaccessible until all of your processes have resumed
    - 1123581321 8y ago
      True. I can’t think of many situations where a laptop can be used, but capacitive touch cant, and the laptop can’t be switched off or the lid closed, and the noise will would cause a problem. I guess I thought that would happen, I’d keep a headphone jack handy as a silencer. I don’t think the utility in an unlikely situation outweighs the balance of use.
      - ouid 8y ago
        closing the lid doesn't mute the sound as a hardware switch. Lots of sounds will continue to play through the closing of the lid, including sounds for video. For an example of when capacitive touch wonts work but the laptop would, simply get your finger a little bit wet. The scenario I'm imagining is opening your computer only to discover that had closed it in the middle of a youtube video or something the night before, and it just continues playing where it left off. A crime of the highest order in OS design, to be sure, but hardly a rare occurrence.
        1123581321 8y ago
        Cmd+Q would be my first action in that situation (which I’ve been in!) But I agree not everyone knows that. I was imagining someone wearing a glove, but you are right that a certain amount of water will start causing issues. I think it would be difficult to pool enough water on both the touch bar and the trackpad outside of a catastrophe. I can’t get sound to continue emitting after closing the lid. I’m sure an app can be developed to make that happen, but it wouldn’t be something commonly used. The most likely candidate seems to me to be something like audio performance software, but a person in that situation wouldn’t be using the speakers as an out and would be used to quickly dealing with software/hardware quirks. Researching this conversation has been fun. :)

roryisok 8y ago

When I'm wearing my cynic hat, the touch bar is the beginning of a plot to replace our physical keys with another screen with an image of keys. The 2030 MacBook will basically be two iPads taped together

theslurmmustflo 8y ago
I think so too, especially with further improvements to the Taptic Engine. This might also lead to a more “solid state” device with less mechanical parts to worry about. I wonder if there will be a backlash or if we will all get used to it.
- utopcell 8y ago
  I think that would be horrible. Yoga book has already brought this idea to market, and typing on it is a nightmare.
  - munk-a 8y ago
    It's okay, if you don't like it you can just plug an external keyboard into the dongle you have plugged into the dongle you have plugged into the only USB-C port they plan on offering!
  - ehsanu1 8y ago
    It's all about the implementation/execution. We'd need some new technology to really make this work well.
    - utopcell 8y ago
      There was this [1] a few years back, not sure what happened to it. [1] https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=%23&ved=0ahUKEwibl66mwpvcAhWCh1QKHTqbAbUQwqsBCCgwAA&usg=AOvVaw0VTJzWxrN8ZFOD4xbU2nov https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=%23&ved...
  - briandear 8y ago

aequitas 8y ago

My biggest problem with the touchbar is that I would only be able to use it half of the time. Because when I dock my laptop it is either closed and tucked in the corner of my desk, or perched on a laptop stand. Either way the touchbar is to far away to be of any benefit. So unless Apple comes with a (bluetooth) keyboard with touchbar, I cannot integrate it into my daily workflow.

jhaile 8y ago

My biggest problem with the touchbar is the escape key. I hate not having tactile feeling for a key I use on a regular basis. I'm constantly missing it or hitting something on accident.

themagician 8y ago
This is the only problem I have with it too. I MUCH prefer having the Touch Bar. Even though I don't use it frequently, it comes in very handy for certain things, and I use it far more often than the function keys. Having a virtual escape key is just strange though. I wouldn't want to go back to a MacBook without a Touch Bar, but if they just cut out another button on the left like they have on the right for the power button and made it an escape key it would be perfect. As it is, the virtual escape key is actually pretty padded to the right. You could replace it with a hard key and not actually lose any space. You might actually gain a few usable pixels.
acchow 8y ago
I've had Caps Lock mapped to escape for years. You used to need some tool to do this, but now you can do it right inside Keyboard settings "Modifier Keys". Make sure you choose the real keyboard if you also have a Yubikey plugged in :)
- sic1 8y ago
  I map caplocks to control, I find the default control button in a weird spot to always be moving my pinky to (and I hardly have a use for caplocks, like yourself). However, after you said this, it reminded me of the comment I caught once where someone had their caplocks setup to be esc on click, or control on hold... no idea how he had it setup, though I'm curious once again.
  - pseudalopex 8y ago
    Karabiner Elements can do that.
  - narimiran 8y ago

fit2rule 8y ago

I've had a touchbar-mBP since release day, and I've only just recently found a use for the touchbar: in Zoom, to start recording the session, and in iTerm to change the colours. Just this week I noticed with surprise that I'm actually using the touchbar 'productively' in this fashion - but its been a long time coming. However I'd throw away this newfound appreciation of the touchBar in an instant, if both of these apps just .. you know .. had icons for the task. Maybe some sort of strip of icons, even ...

ClownsAbound 8y ago

What a pathetic reason to not like something. You know you can run that slick hack to coop the Touch Bar right? You can put just about anything on it, I find a mix app buttons + weather + time/date + volume to be pretty rad. I'm not buying your complaint about F.lux at all, it's simply not that bright or intrusive.

fcbrooklyn 8y ago

I had to replace my 2015 MBP last week, because the kb started failing (it wasn't one of the ones eligible for a free repair, sadly, and I can't live without a machine for however long it takes them to fix it anyway). I was really torn, because although I could reluctantly live without the function keys, the escape key is a complete dealbreaker. After much debate I decided to take a chance on a surface book. I figured I'd try it, try and get my dev environment in a decent place, and see how I felt about windows after 30 days, with the idea that I might have to return it if things didn't work out. I'm 6 days in, and I can pretty safely say there's no way I'm going back to apple. Windows has managed not to suck at all, my dev environment is arguably better than what I had before, and I'm absolutely loving the machine itself. Most joyful new laptop experience in many years.

some_account 8y ago
Really? Window sucks for me even before I log in first time, with stuff like "wait while we are setting you up, just relax...". I switched to Linux and felt the same feeling you did though. Happiness to be back in a nice new system where I feel at home!
- DennisAleynikov 8y ago
  I was extremely unsatisfied with the promise and then the delivery of my surface pro, ended up selling it to a friend with lighter computing needs. The touch bar macbook seems pretty useful itself considering how insanely good its IO is (4 thunderbolt ports!!!). I haven't been able to use it as much and im waiting for better eGPU options to come out. in the mean time I'm stuck just like you in the world of linux. My primary desktop pc for the past 9 months was my galaxy note 8 with a usb c to hdmi adapter. it has an incredible chromebook like UI when docked and has all the linux tools i need! I've even been able to write an app and submit it to the app store all from there. You really cant go back after you've tried one device life and it makes filming and editing content for my youtube channel seamless since video never leaves the 256gb SD card inside my phone. Huawei has a similar mode and i cant wait for google to support it. they do natively support windowed mode and moving apps freely but i mean just add a chromebook ui to the screen when u dock a pixel 3 and you will be golden :)

dbg31415 8y ago

Job gave me a MBP with a touch bar. In the past I've been able to grab an older MBP 15" but they were out of them. So... a small slice of electrical tape solved the issue. Ugh, it's ghetto. It's the worst invention. Anyone who worked on it should feel bad about their existence -- like drawing mustaches on the Mona Lisa. The 2013 MBP was a perfect laptop (for the time). It's nice they finally got around to adding more RAM... that's about all I would have wanted to change on the 2013 MBP.

jonplackett 8y ago
agreed. happily typing on my 2013 now. best laptop in existence. and it cost half as much.

itbeho 8y ago

I’m tempted to start a movement called Tape the Touchbar™. Just put a stylish piece of black electrical tape over it and pretend it’s not there. Seriously though, I share your frustration in regards to both f.lux and external monitor/stand use. It would be nice to be able to dynamically disable the Touchbar in a user configurable way.

omarforgotpwd 8y ago

They've got one without the touch bar.

briandear 8y ago

Can’t you use Night Shift or the built in dimming? Not sure I understand what you are saying. (Not arguing, just genuinely interested in the complaint.)

TimTheTinker 8y ago
The Touch Bar can't be dimmed below a certain threshold (either manually or programmatically). Normally we use f.lux or Brightness Slider to dim the main display, but touch bar brightness can't be controlled. Makes it hard to work late at night without putting electrical tape over it.
- askmike 8y ago
  I never had this problem. But if it's really an issue you can use betterTouchTool or similarly to simply remove all buttons so it doesn't render anything.

stanislavb 8y ago

Yeah, it's sad. I was hoping for a version without a touch bar too :(. I'd also say that these new Macs are the most unpopular ones among devs. It's just that we are so used to MacOS :|

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

TimTheTinker 8y ago

My biggest gripes: - Dongles still needed - Touch bar can't be dimmed

intopieces 8y ago

Re: the function row, I wish instead of the OLED strip they would have implemented something like the Optimus Popularis: https://store.artlebedev.com/electronics/devices/optimus-popularis/ https://store.artlebedev.com/electronics/devices/optimus-pop... To me, this is the best of both worlds. Just put the default keys to start and then let your users pick if they want to. I prefer individual keys to tapping a screen, which is why I use a laptop and not an iPad.

jonplackett 8y ago
yes - this is a damn fine idea. i'm always accidentally resting my finger on the down brightness key and only notice when the screen suddenly goes dark. keys that press = good idea.

patte 8y ago

I turned away from the mac, first because the HW, second because prop. software is creaping me out more and more. I bought a lenovo T480 (big battery, higres screen, good keyboard, only the trackpad is shitty) and I installed the shiny ubuntu 18.04 and I have to say, it's the best setup I ever used. It's super stable, with some tweeking(https://github.com/erpalma/lenovo-throttling-fix https://github.com/erpalma/lenovo-throttling-fix) it's crazy fast, 7h+ battery life when doing web development. Even the LG UltraFine works great under linux. I never regretted it.

aogl 8y ago
I've been thinking about doing this too for some time now. Just not convinced which Lenovo to go for..
- thewizardofaus 8y ago
  Former macbook pro user here. I currently use a T480 with the 72wHr battery. Web Development and programming I pull about 20+ hours of battery life. Using i3wm under Fedora. Absolutely gorgeous machine.
  - exposer 8y ago
    Can you use the switchable graphics or did you get the model without a gpu?
    - patte 8y ago
      I got the one with the MX150 dGPU, because there was no other option from the students program I bought it from. But I personally would go for the one without a dGPU. Even-tough the dGPU version uses 2 heatpipes, there are thermal issues. As soon as the GPU hits 70°C, the cpu-package gets power throtteled to 5W... so it's not usable for graphic intense workloads. I would choose the one without the dGPU, manually buy and install the 2heatpipe cooler for better CPU temperatures and use a eGPU if I really needed the power. For the time being I just disabled the dGPU under linux with bbswitch. I'm still able to watch 4K movies with 60fps, no problem. [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/8flj0i/t480_power_limit_throttles_down_to_5_watts_on/ https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/8flj0i/t480_power...

fouc 8y ago

I used f.lux for 2-3 years. Then I stopped, and I haven't used f.lux for 2 years now. The problem with f.lux is that it makes reading on the computer at night TOO comfortable. I was consistently staying up way past my bed time, and suffering for it. Removing f.lux made it easier to go to sleep earlier. Sometimes comfort isn't worth it. I prefer getting my sleep.

greggman 8y ago

for those in this thread excusing the touch bar how would you feel if apple replaced the entire keyboard with a large touch surface like typing on an iPad. Great idea? Can't wait? Or Ugh?

whywhywhywhy 8y ago
Keep seeing people on Twitter suggesting this as a fix to the unreliable keyboard, completely ignoring that the keyboards were never unreliable until the Butterfly Switches existed. As for the idea, well if touch keyboards are so great why have they invested so much effort in adding a physical keyboard to their Pro touch devices.