7 ms·

> but that goes for American software as well. Exactly. It's surprising that there's a big hue and cry over Chinese spyware (the Lenovo episode) while the US'

> but that goes for American software as well. Exactly. It's surprising that there's a big hue and cry over Chinese spyware (the Lenovo episode) while the US's NSA has been proven to possess know-how to even spy on leaders of other powerful developed nations, and destabilize a nation's nuclear program with just malware.

mikec3010 8y ago
That's sheer proof of the effectiveness of US's propaganda machine.
- jexah 8y ago
  I think it's a difference in belief. Do you prefer American culture and values or Chinese culture and values? Which would you rather protect?
  - andai 8y ago
    I'll need to think about this a lot more, but I agree Western spying is currently by far the lesser of the two evils.
    - beamatronic 8y ago
      The ultimate goal of Western spying comes down to these two things: 1. Preventing another 9/11 2. Selling advertising
      - icantdrive55 8y ago
        3. In the very near future, it will be used to identify homeless individuals, and harass them. I don't believe they will ever try to help them in most counties. (I just have a feeling?) 4. It will be used to collect fees/fines in a more efficient, immediate fashion. 5. It will be used by tax authorities. 6. It will be used by the INS. 7. It will be used by stores to prevent theft. (Yea--great, but you have a misdemeanor shop lifting conviction in high school that prevents you from entering a department store in the future?) 8. It will be used to collect fees/fines in an immediate fashion. Fees, and fines that are just increasing yearly. 9. It will be used to prevent people with DUI's from entering bars. Yea--hooray, but there's so many dubious DUI's issued for Revenue/fines--oops safety? 10. It will be used by banks to detect SMURF's/suspicious money. (Cops will be able to show up at banks, and take the "dirty" money before you get to the counter? I still in shock asset confiscation is still copacetic. I am literally in fear of carrying a few grand in cash--crazy?) 11. Certain Bible Belt states will use facial data in divorce proceedings. In Missouri, if you can prove with pictures your spouse was in the company of other women; the judge is pretty much on your side. Not all states are No Fault, like CA. This is not the society I want to live in. My only hope is they will treat the wealthy, and the rest of us equally, but we all know the wealthy will have the money to fight the system, while the rest of us will just be harassed.
      - goostavos 8y ago
        [Citation needed]
      - monocasa 8y ago
        I mean, there's more than that. The CIA spied on Congressional committee tasked with oversight over the CIA, this became public, and essentially nothing happened in response.
  - StavrosK 8y ago
    I think it's cute that you believe that the NSA's purpose is to protect American culture and values.
    - jexah 8y ago
      I don't believe that. If it came down to it, I would rather America be the world super-power over China, normal Americans make their culture, not the NSA, CIA, FBI, etc.
      - StavrosK 8y ago
        Yes, but the question is "who do you prefer spying on you", not "who do you want as a superpower".
        jexah 8y ago
        Ultimately, I disagree. If we are using the assumption that information is power, and the purpose of spying is to protect national interests (even if that only means the interests of the government in power), then I'd prefer the US spying on me. They already are and have been for years. It makes me uncomfortable, but if the US stopped spying the Chinese sure as hell wouldn't, and so I can't rightly advocate for less spying from the US. I call it a necessary evil.
  - bilbo0s 8y ago
    True. All just belief. Some believe in the West. Some believe in China. Some believe in neither. Some believe in both. Etc etc etc. You'll be arguing back and forth forever if you're just arguing belief systems. It's not like math. You can't really ever "prove" one system is "right".
    - soundwave106 8y ago
      There are some differences in governing style though that go beyond "culture" questions. I'll be honest, I cannot think of a Western nation equivalent of the "great firewall" in China. I'm also not aware of a national campaign to block VPNs, as seems to be happening in China. I'm not aware of Western nations actively blocking access to foreign websites, either, as China seems to be. Thus, based on this and other examples, I don't think it's unfair to think that the internet seems quite a bit more tightly controlled in China. This is not to excuse NSA style spying, but first impression is I might not even be allowed to openly talk about Chinese spying on Chinese social media to be honest.
      - xfs 8y ago
        The very existence of a great firewall is the hallmark of the failure in their state apparatus to manufacture consent. But of course you can openly talk about Chinese spying on Chinese social media because that much is already rendered irrelevant to the mainstream voice so it's no longer a threat to the state that needs to be contained.
      - jexah 8y ago
        Just a side note, China also prevents access to some Chinese websites outside of China.
  - e12e 8y ago
    From Korea, via Vietnam through Chile and on to Iraq and Afghanistan - I think I'd prefer Chines "soft power" to US foreign policy...
    - 1over137 8y ago
      Indeed. Others have argued that although both spy on everything and everyone, at least the US is a (nominal?) democracy, while China is a dictatorship. True enough. But if there are bombs falling on your head, that doesn't matter much. Which of those two counties has invaded dozen of countries over these recent decades? One shouldn't be surprised that someone from South America, Africa, or Asia would prefer China over USA.
      - marcosdumay 8y ago
        > Which of those two counties has invaded dozen of countries over these recent decades? Ehh... Isn't it both?
        klibertp 8y ago
        Is it? Honest question, I don't remember any China-led interventions, but I can't say that there were none. The US-led wars got a wide coverage, especially in NATO countries which were dragged into them, and the public was focused on them, so I can 100% believe that there were some underreported Chinese actions.
        marcosdumay 8y ago
        China has a history of invading its neighbors, and was the main disseminator of communism SE Asia, while the URSS focused more on the SW.
        e12e 8y ago
        Which post ww2 invasion has China done? Granted, like the USA they've been involved as backers in places like Vietnam - but there's a difference between giving support, and invading? Let's not forget that the US has a history of things like, training, supporting ho chi Minh - only to end up fighting a war against him. Training, supporting Mujahideen - only to end up fighting a war. Supporting Saddam Hussein, only to fight a war. Training, supporting contras and similar forces in Latin America - and is now fighting a shooting war on drugs in these countries... [ed: as mentioned in a sibling comment - China intervened with troops in Korea - my apologies - I'm afraid the Vietnam War and later conflicts are more fresh in my mind. https://history.army.mil/brochures/kw-chinter/chinter.htm https://history.army.mil/brochures/kw-chinter/chinter.htm ]
  - Frondo 8y ago
    I don't think either China or America has values worth defending at this point in history.
    - merpnderp 8y ago
      You realize you just said freedom, equality, and justice aren't worth defending?
      - gonvaled 8y ago
        From the point of view of non-American citizens, your constitution does not matter much. So, for 95% (or 85%, if we talk about China) of people, those rights are meaningless. Not even sure they are very relevant to Americans either.
      - mikec3010 8y ago
        I'd believe you if it weren't for the TSA, rich/poor divide (and subsequent access to education, healthcare, and employment), and daily police shootings of unarmed citizens.
        merpnderp 8y ago
        What you are describing is a silly parody of reality. People are spending their lives making these things better, following these values. Politicians struggle to do the best possible. These values are very alive in the US.
      - marcosdumay 8y ago
        Or he said the US does not really value those?
      - mindslight 8y ago
        "American Values", in this context, is used as a bait-and-switch. The version that you're referencing would have most of the NSA up on the gallows. But it is obviously not the version running our society and being pushed onto the rest of the world.
  - gonvaled 8y ago
    does it matter if us culture (those "rights") is just on paper?
    - jexah 8y ago
      I've yet to see a US citizen prosecuted in the US for "hate speech". That seems like more than paper to me.
  - beamatronic 8y ago
    A better question might be, which is more likely to protect you and your loved ones.
  - mikec3010 8y ago
    I'm struggling to read your comment without the inference "culture and values " == mass surveillance. Why do we have to accept that American devices are rooted at all? To me, "American values" means that US citens' communication isn't tapped without a warrant obtained with probable cause of a crime. Instead it sounds like I'm supposed to choose between a surveillance state.
magpi3 8y ago
You should not trust any nation state that has influence over the corporations that build their processors, but the U.S. at least has a right to privacy built into the constitution that affords its citizens (can corporations) the right to challenge any spyware it might ask a corporation to build into a processor in the courts. That is at least something. In China, as far as I can tell, anything goes. Corporations work hand in hand with the government, and control of the population through spying and "social scores" is a high and very open priority for the government.
- b4eEX 8y ago
  Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't American constitution apply only to US' citizens? Even in the ideal case, were it to perfectly protect Americans from three-letter agencies' weaseling, it offers absolutely zero guarantees for non-citizens, which is 95% of world population or so. Americans could pressure USG to stop spying on foreigners, but why would they? I don't see any incentive for an average John Doe to do so. So, overall, there's not that much of a difference for most of the world. One might even argue that for outsiders Chinese relatively stable direction and autocracy is marginally better than American flipping every 8 years, since it allows you to better assess threat profile. Edit: added a bit about assessing threat.
  - magpi3 8y ago
    It's corporations have rights to and if they want to have a global reputation, fighting for users' privacy makes business sense. Or at least so I would hope.
- marcosdumay 8y ago
  US laws are pretty clear in that foreigners (AKA non-citizens) don't have those rights their Constitution give to their people, so, again, what changes?
  - s73v3r_ 8y ago
    The Constitution calls out 2 groups of people: "Citizens", which it uses when referring to voting rights and who can run for office, and "People", which refers to everyone, citizen or not, within the jurisdiction of the US.
lawnchair_larry 8y ago
Because possessing know-how is not at all like having a vendor-supplied backdoor, and writing malware is something that anyone knows how to do.
chapium 8y ago
Its actually auite the opposite. It is not surprising that there is a huge outcry when country x has its spyware programs revealed.
jonathankoren 8y ago
To be fair, spying on leaders and destabilizing national security threats is their job. They wouldn’t be a very good intelligence agency if they didn’t do that. The question is more about building in faults intentionally, versus exploiting accidental faults. The later is fair, but the former is very troublesome. I haven’t seen any evidence of the first one. In fact, when such attempts have been made — primarily in encryption — they’ve been routinely shutdown. See Clipper Chip, and most recently NIST coming out against against the very ecliptic curve coefficients it suggested, and then going on to say not to ever trust NIST coefficients in encryption.

mikec3010 8y ago

That's sheer proof of the effectiveness of US's propaganda machine.

jexah 8y ago
I think it's a difference in belief. Do you prefer American culture and values or Chinese culture and values? Which would you rather protect?
- andai 8y ago
  I'll need to think about this a lot more, but I agree Western spying is currently by far the lesser of the two evils.
  - beamatronic 8y ago
    The ultimate goal of Western spying comes down to these two things: 1. Preventing another 9/11 2. Selling advertising
    - icantdrive55 8y ago
      3. In the very near future, it will be used to identify homeless individuals, and harass them. I don't believe they will ever try to help them in most counties. (I just have a feeling?) 4. It will be used to collect fees/fines in a more efficient, immediate fashion. 5. It will be used by tax authorities. 6. It will be used by the INS. 7. It will be used by stores to prevent theft. (Yea--great, but you have a misdemeanor shop lifting conviction in high school that prevents you from entering a department store in the future?) 8. It will be used to collect fees/fines in an immediate fashion. Fees, and fines that are just increasing yearly. 9. It will be used to prevent people with DUI's from entering bars. Yea--hooray, but there's so many dubious DUI's issued for Revenue/fines--oops safety? 10. It will be used by banks to detect SMURF's/suspicious money. (Cops will be able to show up at banks, and take the "dirty" money before you get to the counter? I still in shock asset confiscation is still copacetic. I am literally in fear of carrying a few grand in cash--crazy?) 11. Certain Bible Belt states will use facial data in divorce proceedings. In Missouri, if you can prove with pictures your spouse was in the company of other women; the judge is pretty much on your side. Not all states are No Fault, like CA. This is not the society I want to live in. My only hope is they will treat the wealthy, and the rest of us equally, but we all know the wealthy will have the money to fight the system, while the rest of us will just be harassed.
    - goostavos 8y ago
      [Citation needed]
    - monocasa 8y ago
      I mean, there's more than that. The CIA spied on Congressional committee tasked with oversight over the CIA, this became public, and essentially nothing happened in response.
- StavrosK 8y ago
  I think it's cute that you believe that the NSA's purpose is to protect American culture and values.
  - jexah 8y ago
    I don't believe that. If it came down to it, I would rather America be the world super-power over China, normal Americans make their culture, not the NSA, CIA, FBI, etc.
    - StavrosK 8y ago
      Yes, but the question is "who do you prefer spying on you", not "who do you want as a superpower".
      - jexah 8y ago
        Ultimately, I disagree. If we are using the assumption that information is power, and the purpose of spying is to protect national interests (even if that only means the interests of the government in power), then I'd prefer the US spying on me. They already are and have been for years. It makes me uncomfortable, but if the US stopped spying the Chinese sure as hell wouldn't, and so I can't rightly advocate for less spying from the US. I call it a necessary evil.
- bilbo0s 8y ago
  True. All just belief. Some believe in the West. Some believe in China. Some believe in neither. Some believe in both. Etc etc etc. You'll be arguing back and forth forever if you're just arguing belief systems. It's not like math. You can't really ever "prove" one system is "right".
  - soundwave106 8y ago
    There are some differences in governing style though that go beyond "culture" questions. I'll be honest, I cannot think of a Western nation equivalent of the "great firewall" in China. I'm also not aware of a national campaign to block VPNs, as seems to be happening in China. I'm not aware of Western nations actively blocking access to foreign websites, either, as China seems to be. Thus, based on this and other examples, I don't think it's unfair to think that the internet seems quite a bit more tightly controlled in China. This is not to excuse NSA style spying, but first impression is I might not even be allowed to openly talk about Chinese spying on Chinese social media to be honest.
    - xfs 8y ago
      The very existence of a great firewall is the hallmark of the failure in their state apparatus to manufacture consent. But of course you can openly talk about Chinese spying on Chinese social media because that much is already rendered irrelevant to the mainstream voice so it's no longer a threat to the state that needs to be contained.
    - jexah 8y ago
      Just a side note, China also prevents access to some Chinese websites outside of China.
- e12e 8y ago
  From Korea, via Vietnam through Chile and on to Iraq and Afghanistan - I think I'd prefer Chines "soft power" to US foreign policy...
  - 1over137 8y ago
    Indeed. Others have argued that although both spy on everything and everyone, at least the US is a (nominal?) democracy, while China is a dictatorship. True enough. But if there are bombs falling on your head, that doesn't matter much. Which of those two counties has invaded dozen of countries over these recent decades? One shouldn't be surprised that someone from South America, Africa, or Asia would prefer China over USA.
    - marcosdumay 8y ago
      > Which of those two counties has invaded dozen of countries over these recent decades? Ehh... Isn't it both?
      - klibertp 8y ago
        Is it? Honest question, I don't remember any China-led interventions, but I can't say that there were none. The US-led wars got a wide coverage, especially in NATO countries which were dragged into them, and the public was focused on them, so I can 100% believe that there were some underreported Chinese actions.
        marcosdumay 8y ago
        China has a history of invading its neighbors, and was the main disseminator of communism SE Asia, while the URSS focused more on the SW.
        e12e 8y ago
        Which post ww2 invasion has China done? Granted, like the USA they've been involved as backers in places like Vietnam - but there's a difference between giving support, and invading? Let's not forget that the US has a history of things like, training, supporting ho chi Minh - only to end up fighting a war against him. Training, supporting Mujahideen - only to end up fighting a war. Supporting Saddam Hussein, only to fight a war. Training, supporting contras and similar forces in Latin America - and is now fighting a shooting war on drugs in these countries... [ed: as mentioned in a sibling comment - China intervened with troops in Korea - my apologies - I'm afraid the Vietnam War and later conflicts are more fresh in my mind. https://history.army.mil/brochures/kw-chinter/chinter.htm https://history.army.mil/brochures/kw-chinter/chinter.htm ]
- Frondo 8y ago
  I don't think either China or America has values worth defending at this point in history.
  - merpnderp 8y ago
    You realize you just said freedom, equality, and justice aren't worth defending?
    - gonvaled 8y ago
      From the point of view of non-American citizens, your constitution does not matter much. So, for 95% (or 85%, if we talk about China) of people, those rights are meaningless. Not even sure they are very relevant to Americans either.
    - mikec3010 8y ago
      I'd believe you if it weren't for the TSA, rich/poor divide (and subsequent access to education, healthcare, and employment), and daily police shootings of unarmed citizens.
      - merpnderp 8y ago
        What you are describing is a silly parody of reality. People are spending their lives making these things better, following these values. Politicians struggle to do the best possible. These values are very alive in the US.
    - marcosdumay 8y ago
      Or he said the US does not really value those?
    - mindslight 8y ago
      "American Values", in this context, is used as a bait-and-switch. The version that you're referencing would have most of the NSA up on the gallows. But it is obviously not the version running our society and being pushed onto the rest of the world.
- gonvaled 8y ago
  does it matter if us culture (those "rights") is just on paper?
  - jexah 8y ago
    I've yet to see a US citizen prosecuted in the US for "hate speech". That seems like more than paper to me.
- beamatronic 8y ago
  A better question might be, which is more likely to protect you and your loved ones.
- mikec3010 8y ago
  I'm struggling to read your comment without the inference "culture and values " == mass surveillance. Why do we have to accept that American devices are rooted at all? To me, "American values" means that US citens' communication isn't tapped without a warrant obtained with probable cause of a crime. Instead it sounds like I'm supposed to choose between a surveillance state.

magpi3 8y ago

You should not trust any nation state that has influence over the corporations that build their processors, but the U.S. at least has a right to privacy built into the constitution that affords its citizens (can corporations) the right to challenge any spyware it might ask a corporation to build into a processor in the courts. That is at least something. In China, as far as I can tell, anything goes. Corporations work hand in hand with the government, and control of the population through spying and "social scores" is a high and very open priority for the government.

b4eEX 8y ago
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't American constitution apply only to US' citizens? Even in the ideal case, were it to perfectly protect Americans from three-letter agencies' weaseling, it offers absolutely zero guarantees for non-citizens, which is 95% of world population or so. Americans could pressure USG to stop spying on foreigners, but why would they? I don't see any incentive for an average John Doe to do so. So, overall, there's not that much of a difference for most of the world. One might even argue that for outsiders Chinese relatively stable direction and autocracy is marginally better than American flipping every 8 years, since it allows you to better assess threat profile. Edit: added a bit about assessing threat.
- magpi3 8y ago
  It's corporations have rights to and if they want to have a global reputation, fighting for users' privacy makes business sense. Or at least so I would hope.
marcosdumay 8y ago
US laws are pretty clear in that foreigners (AKA non-citizens) don't have those rights their Constitution give to their people, so, again, what changes?
- s73v3r_ 8y ago
  The Constitution calls out 2 groups of people: "Citizens", which it uses when referring to voting rights and who can run for office, and "People", which refers to everyone, citizen or not, within the jurisdiction of the US.

lawnchair_larry 8y ago

Because possessing know-how is not at all like having a vendor-supplied backdoor, and writing malware is something that anyone knows how to do.

chapium 8y ago

Its actually auite the opposite. It is not surprising that there is a huge outcry when country x has its spyware programs revealed.

jonathankoren 8y ago

To be fair, spying on leaders and destabilizing national security threats is their job. They wouldn’t be a very good intelligence agency if they didn’t do that. The question is more about building in faults intentionally, versus exploiting accidental faults. The later is fair, but the former is very troublesome. I haven’t seen any evidence of the first one. In fact, when such attempts have been made — primarily in encryption — they’ve been routinely shutdown. See Clipper Chip, and most recently NIST coming out against against the very ecliptic curve coefficients it suggested, and then going on to say not to ever trust NIST coefficients in encryption.