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Illegal Production and Use of Banned CFC-11 in China's Foam Blowing Industry
- contingencies 8y agoNo doubt this publication will result in a crackdown. Good job EIA. Background on EIA @ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_Investigation_Agency https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_Investigation_Ag...
- raverbashing 8y agoThe question is what kind of pressure will China respond to
- constantlm 8y agoIt seems like China is going in the right direction with regards to enforcing environmental standards, so I have no reason to think that this won't result in crackdowns from government.
- whatcanthisbee 8y agoI sure hope so. But China's wasting its energy on: - cracking down dissidents (no election - no real 'authority', officials don't have any incentives to listen to "the people"^TM) - handling local politics (again, no election - same PRC ppl) - deporting N.Korean refugees back to N.Korea (continuing just because Chinas has been doing so - just like PRC praising Mao for Cultural Revolution that killed millions)
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- Analemma_ 8y agoThe central government in Beijing takes pollution pretty seriously, it's usually an issue of corruption at the level of local officials. Once an environmental issue is loud enough to convince Beijing to turn its gaze there, they can usually be counted on to make it go away, by good means or bad.
- whatcanthisbee 8y agoisn't it all because there's no election in China? without elections, why would a gov. official listen to "the people"?
- tormeh 8y agoTo remain in power? That's why they have propaganda. All governments listen to their people, by necessity. The quality and quantity of this listening varies, but all do.
- whatcanthisbee 8y agoagreed. But China's "quality and quantity" effectively is "as long as there isn't a bloody riot all over the place" :( and speaking of dissidents, why would Chinese police operate "execution vans"? isn't that to hide execution of key people, whose news of execution may stir the public?
- ballenf 8y agoBut does this type of pollution have any localized effect? It might be years before the ozone hole grows large enough to directly affect the country. If the effect of this pollution is that China's competitors have to spend more energy and resources combatting the ozone hole then it's a competitive advantage with the only downside being loss of international reputation. Point is, the pollution China's been cracking down on is the type that hurts the country economically (whether through immediate health issues or making it less desirable to live). Will be interesting to see how they respond. While this report may be the first smoking gun, there have been very, very strong implications of cheating in China on CFCs for years. If they wanted to rein it in, they could have done it long ago.
- sfifs 8y agoLoss of face when they're trying to contrast approach on climate change vs. Trump
- ttsda 8y agoOf course it was China.
- dang 8y agoCould you please not post unsubstantive comments here? Especially not nationalistically divisive ones.
- ttsda 8y agoIm sorry, it wasn't meant as such.
- est 8y agoDid you watch the video? https://player.vimeo.com/video/278835579 https://player.vimeo.com/video/278835579 It says the government shutdown the factory due to environmental crackdown. Jump to video 1:45
- dang 8y agoAnother article at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17488344 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17488344.
- breakingcups 8y agoThat article has the title "Mysterious source of illegal ozone-killing emissions revealed, say investigators", which is an interesting angle that I didn't get from this article. I'm glad I read both.
- Cthulhu_ 8y agoYeah I read the context a while ago (about there being a new source of CFCs around but nobody knew where from, yet).
- jopsen 8y agoFrom that article: > “When the municipal environmental bureau runs a check, our local officers would call me and tell me to shut down my factory. Our workers just gather and hide together.” So at-least they know it wrong, and inspectors are at-least pretending to do inspections. Maybe outside pressure will bring an end to with is likely local corruption.
- Fnoord 8y agoFor reference, trichlorofluoromethane (also called freon-11, CFC-11, or R-11) [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trichlorofluoromethane https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trichlorofluoromethane
- amelius 8y agoIs this an instance where evidence can be collected by the relatively new EU Sentinel-5P satellite? [1] http://www.euronews.com/2017/10/13/environmental-satellite-ready-for-blast-off http://www.euronews.com/2017/10/13/environmental-satellite-r...
- JorgeGT 8y agoAs far as I know no CFC products are being proposed for Sentinel-5p (http://www.tropomi.eu/data-products/level-2-products http://www.tropomi.eu/data-products/level-2-products) but it will certainly report ozone levels and profiles. In the original Nature paper reporting the detection of unreported CFC production, they used flask samples and numerical back-trajectory methods: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-018-0106-2 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-018-0106-2
- magicbuzz 8y agoSee https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Under_the_Dome_(film) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Under_the_Dome_(film) for China’s inability to regulate their out of control pollution.
- whatcanthisbee 8y ago> By the end of March 1st, 2015, all reports and reviews about the documentary Under the Dome were withdrawn from online websites > The reason of banning was said to be the pressure of public perception of smog and the fear of collective action of the people it's not 'inability to regulate', but reluctant to regulate. Just make those environmental groups shut up.
- bArray 8y agoThis is the problem with growing an economy at any cost.
- jopsen 8y agoIf you read the guardian on the subject: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/jul/09/mysterious-source-of-illegal-ozone-killing-emissions-revealed-say-investigators https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/jul/09/mysterio... It seems to me like there is laws against this, there are inspectors, but local corruption and small fines is making it ineffective. Of the numbers at the end of the article are just somewhat correct, we're talking about maybe 10 factories (give or take). So this is certainly something that can be fixed. At it's so far clear that the government is not condoning this behavior.
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- exelius 8y agoChina has realized that given their population, climate change will disproportionately affect them. So the government has good reason to actually enforce environmental laws; they’re just too big to do it effectively.
- bArray 8y ago>China has realized that given their population, climate change will disproportionately affect them. Not entirely sure about this, time and time again there seems to be a disconnect between what China says and what China does. >So the government has good reason to actually enforce environmental laws; they’re just too big to do it effectively. When they want to, they are capable of blocking the entire internet, monitoring all residents, manipulating global raw materials. Why else run a dictatorship?
- vkou 8y agoFrom speaking with people who have lived in China, the environment is a huge concern for the people living there. Unlike in the US, there is a very clear expectation that it's the government is both capable of, and is responsible for dealing with it. Chinese people aren't some mindless propagandized drones. They have the same capacity of looking out the window as you or I.
- hourislate 8y agoDemilic, BASF, Lapolla, etc have all phased out CFC-11 in their Open and Closed Cell Foams since around 2009. It's not surprising that the Chinese still use the old style spray foam. It was less costly to produce, had better cell structure and a better rise from what I remember. But not so good for the environment. The only positive is where ever they use it as insulation, will reduce energy needs to heat or cool the structure.
- blondie9x 8y agoThis explains the mysterious increased measure of atmospheric CFCs. Hopefully this will help stabilize ozone hole again. Can't believe that China would allow this given all they have to lose. Causing further damage to the ozone will intensify other environmental issues the country and planet experience.
- seanmcdirmid 8y agoChina doesn’t have as strong a government as many people would think. A lot of enterprising individuals and even local governments will do whatever they can get away with to make a few more yuan. They’ll only stop when the central government gets serious and cracks down. But the same could be said for any hyper capitalistic society without rule of law or strong regulatory enforcement. That just happens to mainly be China right now, but could also be the USA in the future if the EPA is dismantled and Trumpism reigns.
- subway 8y agoShan gao, huangdi yuan — “The mountains are high, and the emperor is far away.”
- HillaryBriss 8y agoGiven the tremendous quantity of illegal explosives and fiery flying projectiles (fireworks and skyrockets) discharged in suburban streets over the last week in my fire-prone, drought challenged US city, one might conclude that the US doesn't have a very strong government either.
- CNJ7654 8y agoIt's almost like police are allowed discretion in their duties, and choose willingly not to arrest or fine normal people who are just having a fun time with fireworks on Independence Day weekend (despite the cries of overprotective soccer moms). Really makes you think!
- seanmcdirmid 8y ago
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- wiradikusuma 8y agoThis kind of "on purpose" behavior is making me very upset. I keep thinking that there should be some kind of mechanism for the perpetrators to have a feel of their own medicine. Like every time a vehicle in front of me releasing thick black smoke from tailpipe, I feel like it must be required by law for them to channel some of the smoke to go inside their own vehicle, so they know, "Oh, apparently it doesn't smell nice and it can kill me, I should send my car to workshop so I don't hurt others." Smokers already feel this. In many buildings, when they want to smoke, they must go to some room with other smokers. Although, I still don't understand why they still keep smoking. At least, they can only hurt themselves.
- s73v3r_ 8y agoAgreed. "Rolling Coal" should be treated as a violent assault on others, especially cyclists, that I should be able to defend myself against like any other assault.
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- ouid 8y agoThis seems like a question that has to be left up to the courts, somehow.
- seanmcdirmid 8y agoWhen I was smoking, hanging outside with other smokers was half of the addiction. Completely unrelated to this case, which is just about old fashioned profit over the common good.
- corey_moncure 8y agoHave you ever been to China? Those people are "feeling" their own medicine daily, pervasively, in ways it's difficult to comprehend except by experiencing it for yourself. The images and stories you consume on the internet only take you part of the way to their soul crushing reality. They are already the product of their environment. Coal rollers in the USA, on the other hand, have no excuse.
- hammock 8y agoEnjoy your Nectar foam mattress made in China!
- diogenescynic 8y agoWe need to boycott China. Their environmental negligence is going to harm generations to come. This is just selfish and short sighted.
- jonker 8y agoThe Chinese firms told the EIA they will continue to use CFC-11 because it’s "superior chemical for foams in house construction." The EIA estimates China’s CFC emissions exceed 2,645 million cubic pounds since 2004. I guess the 1989 CFC treaty they signed was a joke. China also produces radioactive sludge from rare earth mines and grows world trade food crops not even 1/2 mile away. Photos https://imgur.com/a/lsVb6X0 https://imgur.com/a/lsVb6X0 When you constantly pollute at the cost of everyone's health your culture is literally toxic. As a Chinese-American I'm sad to say I'm disgusted by the "worlds oldest civilization."