11 ms·

> I believe that many in the field are overpaid relative to the difficulty of the work they do. I believe that every programmer is overpaid relative to the dif

by ken 8y ago

> I believe that many in the field are overpaid relative to the difficulty of the work they do. I believe that every programmer is overpaid relative to the difficulty of the work they do -- or, more accurately, that The Market doesn't pay based on difficulty of work. Software pays so well because the product scales so well. Successful pop musicians don't do work that's 100 times more 'difficult' than software engineering. They do work that scales even better (copying digital music; playing to arenas; branding on merch). Having worked outside the software world, I absolutely do not believe that software people are any smarter, on average, than anyone else. Ever see a plumbing or electrical or structural system fail spectacularly? Other types of workers absolutely need to understand interactions between multiple complex systems, deal with obsolete and incompatible systems, and deal with changing and conflicting requirements and regulations. If software is any more complex to deal with than physical systems, it's only because the architects and implementors let it get that way.

RobertDeNiro 8y ago
Keep in mind that it's easy to you because you're from that particular field. For a lot of people software development is still basically witchcraft.
- cbluth 8y ago
  "In obscurity lies opportunity"
  - booleandilemma 8y ago
    Job security by obscurity? :)
- c22 8y ago
  So is plumbing.
  - minor3rd 8y ago
    I had a plumber over for some fixes about a month ago, and he saw me doing some coding on my laptop. He made a comment like "I have absolutely no clue how any of that works... it is wizardry to me". I said "I'm watching you fix plumbing issues around my house, and that is wizardry to me". I think we could probably learn each others' jobs if we really tried, but the point is that all things can seem like magic until you learn them.
    - TeMPOraL 8y ago
      In both cases, it probably boils down to shit ton of small and easy things. Each individual unit of knowledge would be trivial for a typical person to grasp, and also mostly useless. Only together they form this large lattice of interlinked concepts that can be used for "doing magic" - but also can't be easily explained.
  - kazagistar 8y ago
    It's no surprise then that plumbing also pays pretty well.
  - IshKebab 8y ago
    I've done a bit of plumbing and I would say it is much easier than programming. Even basic "plumbing" programming.
    - jack9 8y ago
      It is easier, but it's physically more demanding (including being far more dangerous).
      - IshKebab 8y ago
        Well being physically more demanding than programming doesn't say a lot!
    - c22 8y ago
      I think there is a spectrum of difficulty in both arenas. For instance, I found writing some javascript code to toggle css around my personal website was far easier (and required less math) than sizing the pipes in the house I am designing. That said, I have also worked on much more complicated software projects that demanded more effort on my part. I assume there exist more complicated plumbing challenges as well.
ellius 8y ago
I'm reading Thomas Sowell's "Intellectuals and Society," and while I disagree with a lot in his arguments and his view of the world, I think he nails a key point about the philosophy behind free market economies. He says that conservative intellectuals don't view inequality and other social tragedies as mainly the consequence of policy, but rather as an inherent part of the human condition. Markets may act as a mechanism that conveys those inequalities, but they are not necessarily their cause. Prices are his first example. Commanding a higher salary doesn't mean you're a harder or even more skilled worker, it just means that you produce something that is judged by buyers (employers) to have a higher positive impact on their well-being.
- closeparen 8y ago
  >Inequality and other social tragedies Poverty is a social tragedy. Inequality is an inevitable consequence of choice.
  - ellius 8y ago
    Perhaps not a direct consequence of choice, though. Certainly whatever poltical and economic system we choose has implications for inequality, but it's not simply a matter of "we choose to have less inequality –> less inequality." Redistributive choices have complex interactions and results.
    - _jal 8y ago
      Right. Intuitively, it is obvious that political choices impact inequality, as does perusing world data sorted by GINI coefficient, or even just a review of the US over time. I do find it darkly funny that so many folks seem to throw up their hands - it is obvious that inequality will always exist, so just live with however much we currently happen to have and shut up about it. (Inflation, however - we can totally micromanage that!) Humans have an innate sense of fairness that becomes offended at some point, and they start punishing even when doing so harms themselves. The peasants get restless at some point, the tumbrels come out, and there's your natural law in action.
throwawy3589 8y ago
>Having worked outside the software world, I absolutely do not believe that software people are any smarter, on average, than anyone else The average CS major has an IQ of around 125[1], meaning the average software engineer is somewhere around the top 5% of the population in terms of intelligence. The average IQ at the top tech companies is probably a standard deviation higher than that. Despite this, the consensus is that the majority of software developers are pretty terrible at what they do. If you've ever tried to help people learn to code you would realize a good chunk of the population doesn't have what it takes to do anything beyond basic programming. If it was easy more people would do it and salaries would drop. 1. http://www.randalolson.com/2014/06/25/average-iq-of-students-by-college-major-and-gender-ratio/ http://www.randalolson.com/2014/06/25/average-iq-of-students...
lr4444lr 8y ago
Then any year now, the explosion of boot camps, nano-degrees, and general online courses should start to push the market to equilibrium with people looking to get a leg up, right? Any year now...
BurningFrog 8y ago
> I believe that every programmer is overpaid relative to the difficulty of the work they do -- or, more accurately, that The Market doesn't pay based on difficulty of work. Software pays so well because the product scales so well. ...which is another way of saying that writing software is a good use of relatively smart people's time, which is why the market rewards it.
blablabla123 8y ago
> I believe that every programmer is overpaid relative to the difficulty of the work they do What?? :D No and no. People get paid for working on things that take an effort. Nobody would pay you if there was no reason for it. Even the "window watchers" (or how they're called) are payed because they didn't change jobs for 40 years, were loyal to their bosses, colleagues and company. And yes of course, some jobs take a higher amount of "problem crunching" (whatever that means) than others. In fact sometimes this is the reason certain jobs can only be performed by certain programmers. Most programmer jobs cannot be done by none-programmers. > If software is any more complex to deal with than physical systems, it's only because the architects and implementors let it get that way. There are not many fields that are purely abstract, namely that's mathematics, logic and theoretical computer science. Those fields are notoriously difficult, every school kid knows this for mathematics and eventually gets that logic is also a hard nut. This completely misses the point that reasoning about completely artificial entities is an effort by itself. It not only gets harder with complexity but also depending how abstract it gets. In fact their are even weird limitations that you do not experience in the physical world like paradoxes.
pkaye 8y ago
> I believe that every programmer is overpaid relative to the difficulty of the work they do -- or, more accurately, that The Market doesn't pay based on difficulty of work. Software pays so well because the product scales so well. If that is the case then why not hire cheaper individuals to do the same job?
- crowbahr 8y ago
  He's saying that it's not about difficulty it's about the value of the output. There are many difficult things that are worthless in value. You could be the greatest deep sea underwater basket weaver, that doesn't make your goods valuable. Nobody wants your damp baskets. He's not saying that programming is easy: he's saying it has high value to difficulty, higher than other more difficult careers.
thermodynthrway 8y ago
I disagree on several points. A good chunk of why software engineers get paid well is because most people don't like writing code. It's not just because the businesses scale well, it's because it's an undesirable job for most. Having worked many jobs I also disagree that it's easy, relatively. It's probably not due to IQ, it's because it requires constant thinking. Every other job I've worked is a light mental load compared to software and electrical engineering. Most jobs you don't think about anything half the time. In hospitality you largely sit around waiting for people. Same with finance and sales in many cases. In HR most of your time is spent sending email, entering data on websites, and attending meetings. Or, your job is to talk to people most of the day, something many find more appealing. Engineering is 6-8 hours of intense focus and fixing difficult to find bugs. As palatable as doing math homework for most people. I disagree about intellectual difficulty as well. In school I was a teaching assistant and many, many students simply couldn't put working programs together. Even if you know all the constructs, software engineering is basically building something in your head then tanslating it. I've seen enough people try and fail to build any working programs for 6 months to believe that some people just aren't capable
- kleiba 8y ago
  A good chunk of why software engineers get paid well is because most people don't like writing code. It's not just because the businesses scale well, it's because it's an undesirable job for most. By that logic, the cleaning staff in your local adult movie theater would be millionaires.
  - thermodynthrway 8y ago
    There's a limited supply of people with the education and life opportunity to become engineers, but still the vast majority of those don't despite the pay.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

by ken 8y ago

RobertDeNiro 8y ago

Keep in mind that it's easy to you because you're from that particular field. For a lot of people software development is still basically witchcraft.

cbluth 8y ago
"In obscurity lies opportunity"
- booleandilemma 8y ago
  Job security by obscurity? :)
c22 8y ago
So is plumbing.
- minor3rd 8y ago
  I had a plumber over for some fixes about a month ago, and he saw me doing some coding on my laptop. He made a comment like "I have absolutely no clue how any of that works... it is wizardry to me". I said "I'm watching you fix plumbing issues around my house, and that is wizardry to me". I think we could probably learn each others' jobs if we really tried, but the point is that all things can seem like magic until you learn them.
  - TeMPOraL 8y ago
    In both cases, it probably boils down to shit ton of small and easy things. Each individual unit of knowledge would be trivial for a typical person to grasp, and also mostly useless. Only together they form this large lattice of interlinked concepts that can be used for "doing magic" - but also can't be easily explained.
- kazagistar 8y ago
  It's no surprise then that plumbing also pays pretty well.
- IshKebab 8y ago
  I've done a bit of plumbing and I would say it is much easier than programming. Even basic "plumbing" programming.
  - jack9 8y ago
    It is easier, but it's physically more demanding (including being far more dangerous).
    - IshKebab 8y ago
      Well being physically more demanding than programming doesn't say a lot!
  - c22 8y ago
    I think there is a spectrum of difficulty in both arenas. For instance, I found writing some javascript code to toggle css around my personal website was far easier (and required less math) than sizing the pipes in the house I am designing. That said, I have also worked on much more complicated software projects that demanded more effort on my part. I assume there exist more complicated plumbing challenges as well.

ellius 8y ago

I'm reading Thomas Sowell's "Intellectuals and Society," and while I disagree with a lot in his arguments and his view of the world, I think he nails a key point about the philosophy behind free market economies. He says that conservative intellectuals don't view inequality and other social tragedies as mainly the consequence of policy, but rather as an inherent part of the human condition. Markets may act as a mechanism that conveys those inequalities, but they are not necessarily their cause. Prices are his first example. Commanding a higher salary doesn't mean you're a harder or even more skilled worker, it just means that you produce something that is judged by buyers (employers) to have a higher positive impact on their well-being.

closeparen 8y ago
>Inequality and other social tragedies Poverty is a social tragedy. Inequality is an inevitable consequence of choice.
- ellius 8y ago
  Perhaps not a direct consequence of choice, though. Certainly whatever poltical and economic system we choose has implications for inequality, but it's not simply a matter of "we choose to have less inequality –> less inequality." Redistributive choices have complex interactions and results.
  - _jal 8y ago
    Right. Intuitively, it is obvious that political choices impact inequality, as does perusing world data sorted by GINI coefficient, or even just a review of the US over time. I do find it darkly funny that so many folks seem to throw up their hands - it is obvious that inequality will always exist, so just live with however much we currently happen to have and shut up about it. (Inflation, however - we can totally micromanage that!) Humans have an innate sense of fairness that becomes offended at some point, and they start punishing even when doing so harms themselves. The peasants get restless at some point, the tumbrels come out, and there's your natural law in action.

throwawy3589 8y ago

>Having worked outside the software world, I absolutely do not believe that software people are any smarter, on average, than anyone else The average CS major has an IQ of around 125[1], meaning the average software engineer is somewhere around the top 5% of the population in terms of intelligence. The average IQ at the top tech companies is probably a standard deviation higher than that. Despite this, the consensus is that the majority of software developers are pretty terrible at what they do. If you've ever tried to help people learn to code you would realize a good chunk of the population doesn't have what it takes to do anything beyond basic programming. If it was easy more people would do it and salaries would drop. 1. http://www.randalolson.com/2014/06/25/average-iq-of-students-by-college-major-and-gender-ratio/ http://www.randalolson.com/2014/06/25/average-iq-of-students...

lr4444lr 8y ago

Then any year now, the explosion of boot camps, nano-degrees, and general online courses should start to push the market to equilibrium with people looking to get a leg up, right? Any year now...

BurningFrog 8y ago

> I believe that every programmer is overpaid relative to the difficulty of the work they do -- or, more accurately, that The Market doesn't pay based on difficulty of work. Software pays so well because the product scales so well. ...which is another way of saying that writing software is a good use of relatively smart people's time, which is why the market rewards it.

blablabla123 8y ago

> I believe that every programmer is overpaid relative to the difficulty of the work they do What?? :D No and no. People get paid for working on things that take an effort. Nobody would pay you if there was no reason for it. Even the "window watchers" (or how they're called) are payed because they didn't change jobs for 40 years, were loyal to their bosses, colleagues and company. And yes of course, some jobs take a higher amount of "problem crunching" (whatever that means) than others. In fact sometimes this is the reason certain jobs can only be performed by certain programmers. Most programmer jobs cannot be done by none-programmers. > If software is any more complex to deal with than physical systems, it's only because the architects and implementors let it get that way. There are not many fields that are purely abstract, namely that's mathematics, logic and theoretical computer science. Those fields are notoriously difficult, every school kid knows this for mathematics and eventually gets that logic is also a hard nut. This completely misses the point that reasoning about completely artificial entities is an effort by itself. It not only gets harder with complexity but also depending how abstract it gets. In fact their are even weird limitations that you do not experience in the physical world like paradoxes.

pkaye 8y ago

> I believe that every programmer is overpaid relative to the difficulty of the work they do -- or, more accurately, that The Market doesn't pay based on difficulty of work. Software pays so well because the product scales so well. If that is the case then why not hire cheaper individuals to do the same job?

crowbahr 8y ago
He's saying that it's not about difficulty it's about the value of the output. There are many difficult things that are worthless in value. You could be the greatest deep sea underwater basket weaver, that doesn't make your goods valuable. Nobody wants your damp baskets. He's not saying that programming is easy: he's saying it has high value to difficulty, higher than other more difficult careers.

thermodynthrway 8y ago

I disagree on several points. A good chunk of why software engineers get paid well is because most people don't like writing code. It's not just because the businesses scale well, it's because it's an undesirable job for most. Having worked many jobs I also disagree that it's easy, relatively. It's probably not due to IQ, it's because it requires constant thinking. Every other job I've worked is a light mental load compared to software and electrical engineering. Most jobs you don't think about anything half the time. In hospitality you largely sit around waiting for people. Same with finance and sales in many cases. In HR most of your time is spent sending email, entering data on websites, and attending meetings. Or, your job is to talk to people most of the day, something many find more appealing. Engineering is 6-8 hours of intense focus and fixing difficult to find bugs. As palatable as doing math homework for most people. I disagree about intellectual difficulty as well. In school I was a teaching assistant and many, many students simply couldn't put working programs together. Even if you know all the constructs, software engineering is basically building something in your head then tanslating it. I've seen enough people try and fail to build any working programs for 6 months to believe that some people just aren't capable

kleiba 8y ago
A good chunk of why software engineers get paid well is because most people don't like writing code. It's not just because the businesses scale well, it's because it's an undesirable job for most. By that logic, the cleaning staff in your local adult movie theater would be millionaires.
- thermodynthrway 8y ago
  There's a limited supply of people with the education and life opportunity to become engineers, but still the vast majority of those don't despite the pay.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]