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The Meaning of July Fourth for the Negro (1852)
- codetrotter 8y agoThose of us who are not from the US may not know who this man was. From the Wikipedia article about him: > Frederick Douglass (born Frederick Augustus Washington Bailey; c. February 1818 – February 20, 1895) was an American social reformer, abolitionist, orator, writer, and statesman. After escaping from slavery in Maryland, he became a national leader of the abolitionist movement in Massachusetts and New York, gaining note for his oratory and incisive antislavery writings. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Douglass https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Douglass
- nicolas_t 8y agoIt's humbling to read about his life and the many major figures in the abolitionist movement. Those men and women really deserve respect for how visionary and open minded they were in a world of close mindedness.
- barking 8y ago>"It's humbling to read about his life and the many major figures in the abolitionist movement. Those men and women really deserve respect for how visionary and open minded they were in a world of close mindedness." In 150 years people may well be saying the same thing about the major figures in today's anti-abortion movements.
- rsynnott 8y agoNo, probably not.
- barking 8y agoTwo classes of human beings, slaves and fetuses, each deprived of human rights, for valid reasons in the eyes of the supporters of the respective practice.
- cinquemb 8y agoWell, at least with slavery, slave owners to some degree or another had to at least mitigate against the risk of revolt or uprising throughout history. I suspect fetuses might be held in higher regard if they could exert their sovereignty inside their parents womb to any sufficient degree before/during/after an abortion.
- barking 8y agoThey're hidden away and disposed of in secret. It got so bad in the recent referendum campaign in Ireland that even to show an ultrasound image of a normal in-utero fetus was regarded as hurtful and offensive.
- kaybe 8y agoWhen a fetus does not need somebody to spend their time and pain hosting them and risk their health and life doing it, then we can talk about this. Even if it was not a fetus but an adult with a fully formed conciousness and personality, this would be a hard demand to make, and our laws reflect that.
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- wpietri 8y agoProbably not. Strong anti-abortion views are mostly religious in nature, and only for specific religious subgroups: http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/views-about-abortion/ http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/views-abou... The evangelical absolutism around abortion is historically new. Before 1980, plenty of evangelical Christians had nuanced views on the topic: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2012/02/18/the-biblical-view-thats-younger-than-the-happy-meal/ http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2012/02/18/the-bibl... Even some evangelical writers see this as mainly about a wedge issues used for political power, not morality: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2018/07/03/the-con-game-of-anti-abortion-partisanship-that-replaced-christianity-has-been-so-successful-that-we-forget-how-recently-it-was-invented/ http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2018/07/03/the-con-... So I think it's no coincidence that at the same time extreme anti-abortion views came to prominence on the US right, the US right became steadily more extreme, with centrists disappearing from the Republican side of the aisle in Congress: https://xkcd.com/1127/large/ https://xkcd.com/1127/large/ My expectation is that this, like all positive feedback loops, will eventually break, and Christians will return to historical norms. And I'd further guess that this will be aided technological advances that make extreme antiabortion views untenable. Look, for example at the question that goes something like, "In a clinic fire, would you save a five year old or a tank with 1,000 embryos?". [1] Advances in medicine, AI, copying minds, and animal uplift would provide many more examples, forcing a debate around what really makes something a legally protected person. If an AI, a human mind moved to silicon, and a dog with a 140 IQ all get citizenship, it'll harder to explain why a nonsentient fertilized human egg gets those protections. [1] https://www.quora.com/In-the-abortion-debate-isnt-the-5-year-old-versus-1-000-frozen-embryos-analogy-just-an-emotional-appeal-and-therefore-useless-in-determining-fetal-personhood https://www.quora.com/In-the-abortion-debate-isnt-the-5-year...
- Mediterraneo10 8y ago> Christians will return to historical norms. Abortion is condemned in the Didache (late 1st century/early 2nd century CE). There were already rigorously set penalties under canon law for abortion in the 1st millennium. It may be that American Evangelical Christians will return to the moderate views about the issue that they held several decades ago, but it is entire possible that the "historical norms" that any Christian community might return to are the ones even further back in time.
- bryanrasmussen 8y agoWhen a fetus gives a rousing speech in front of a room of major political figures I for one will certainly take notice.
- rtx 8y agoCrying in pain is not far off.
- dang 8y agoThis comment badly broke the HN guideline against introducing generic flamebait into threads. The last thing we need is flamewars about abortion. Please don't do this again. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- arethuza 8y agoFrederick Douglass is mentioned in Sagan's superb "The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark": "Frederick Douglass taught that literacy is the path from slavery to freedom. There are many kinds of slavery and many kinds of freedom. But reading is still the path." Also, perhaps my favourite part describing the reaction to a speech by Douglass: "His very appearance and demeanour destroyed the then- prevalent myth of the 'natural servility' of African-Americans. By all accounts his eloquent analysis of the evils of slavery was one of the most brilliant debuts in American oratorical history. William Lloyd Garrison, the leading abolitionist of the day, sat in the front row. When Douglass finished his speech. Garrison rose, turned to the stunned audience, and challenged them with a shouted question: 'Have we been listening to a thing, a chattel personal, or a man?' 'A man! A man!' the audience roared back as one voice. 'Shall such a man be held a slave in a Christian land?' called out Garrison. 'No! No!' shouted the audience. And even louder, Garrison asked: 'Shall such a man ever be sent back to bondage from the free soil of Old Massachusetts?' And now the crowd was on its feet, crying out 'No! No! No!' He never did return to slavery."
- arionhardison 8y ago> "Frederick Douglass taught that literacy is the path from slavery to freedom. There are many kinds of slavery and many kinds of freedom. But reading is still the path." I believe this same thing holds true for coding and the modern day African American ( of which I am one ). I earn 6x more than my father ( Fisk University / TSU - BS/Masters ), 3x more than my sister ( Yale / Columbia Educated Architect - BS/Masters ) and an even greater multiple more than the rest of my family - yet I have no college education. I truly wish more African Americans saw that coding is the new literacy and IMO a real path to freedom.
- swoongoonz 8y agoI talk a lot about this with my wife. She's half mexican-american, I'm a quarter so we compare notes. Not everyone has what it takes to code. I played the hell out of video games for hours and hours on end as a kid. I'm kind of a natural fit for sitting in front of a computer for hours, trouble shooting until I succeed. My parents, my siblings, my friends I grew up with... not so much. Not scientific, but I kind of think we won the lottery for brains and the personality to do the kind of work we do for long stretches of time.
- bjd2385 8y agoIf I'm not mistaken, he is buried at Mt. Hope cemetery in Rochester, NY. I remember from my visits that he has two grave stones, each with a different birth date, because his real birth date is unknown. Actually, according to the Wikipedia article, "The exact date of his birth is unknown, and he later chose to celebrate his birthday on February 14. In his first autobiography, Douglass stated: 'I have no accurate knowledge of my age, never having seen any authentic record containing it.'"
- extralego 8y ago“Frederick Douglass is an example of somebody who’s done an amazing job and is getting recognized more and more, I notice.” — President Donald J. Trump, February 1, 2017
- andrepd 8y agoSuch a way with words.
- gadders 8y agoA very interesting guy. The Art of Manliness has some good articles on him. Comic version of an extract from his autobiography: https://www.artofmanliness.com/articles/an-original-aom-comic-frederick-douglass-how-a-slave-was-made-a-man/ https://www.artofmanliness.com/articles/an-original-aom-comi... His speech on self-made men: https://www.artofmanliness.com/articles/manvotional-self-made-men-by-frederick-douglass/ https://www.artofmanliness.com/articles/manvotional-self-mad...
- ericdykstra 8y agoThis is a great speech. Douglass' biographies are on my to-read list. The Declaration of Independence was an important and powerful document. An oft-overlooked part is that it set the stage for the end of slavery, a world-wide phenomenon that encompasses known human history, around the world. At the time of writing, it was more important to keep the country together than to end slavery, but just ~40 years after independence America ended the slave trade, and it was the new nation of the United States of America that freed all slaves less than 100 years after it's founding. The founders of America truly had a great vision, and created the foundation of a radically new kind of country that beget the end of slavery in the developed world.
- nerdponx 8y agoDidn't the British empire ban slaves and slavery on English soil at the start of the 19th century?
- oblio 8y agoIt did: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slave_Trade_Act_1807 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slave_Trade_Act_1807 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_Africa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_Africa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_Abolition_Act_1833 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_Abolition_Act_1833 It even pressed other countries to abolish it (not only for pure reasons, also for commercial ones, but they'd still make Machiavelli proud).
- arethuza 8y agoThe Royal Navy, which had historical links to slavery, even ended up positioning ships in the Atlantic specifically to stop slave ships: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Africa_Squadron https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Africa_Squadron
- perkee 8y agoWhen the Union blockaded the Confederacy, cotton workers in Lancashire, England (who were out of work without raw material) rallied against the Royal Navy breaking the blockade though it would have been in their economic interest at the time. Solidarity forever. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-21057494 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-21057494
- euthanes 8y agoIt's incredible that a speech from over 160 years ago can have such an emotional impact on a 2018 American reader. If you feel uncomfortable reading this speech just as I did, you understand the importance to reflect on our national moral compass. > At a time like this, scorching irony, not convincing argument, is needed. O! had I the ability, and could reach the nation's ear, I would, to-day, pour out a fiery stream of biting ridicule, blasting reproach, withering sarcasm, and stern rebuke. For it is not light that is needed, but fire; it is not the gentle shower, but thunder. We need the storm, the whirlwind, and the earthquake. The feeling of the nation must be quickened; the conscience of the nation must be roused; the propriety of the nation must be startled; the hypocrisy of the nation must be exposed; and its crimes against God and man must be proclaimed and denounced.
- EGreg 8y agoWhat is the history of slavery in the Islamic / Arab middle east? When did those countries abolish it? I think it was fairly recent, some in the 20th century... I mean not counting recent the scandal from the guardian about migrant workers who can’t get an exit visa. PS: I am curious why asking about continuing slavery in other parts of the world importing Black slaves is so heavily downvoted. Aren’t people equal regardless of where in the world they are? Why discourage concern and knowledge about slavery of people of African descent?? This is like when the Paris attacks happened and the world was lit up in French colors while on the same day the same group (ISIS) killed just as many people at a stadium Beirut, Lebanon and no one seemed to even mention them. We need to move past our navel gazing. https://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/11/16/world/middleeast/beirut-lebanon-attacks-paris.html https://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/11/16/world/middleeast/beiru...
- mikeash 8y agoAccording to this story, the last country to abolish slavery was Mauritania in 1981: http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2012/03/world/mauritania.slaverys.last.stronghold/index.html http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2012/03/world/mauritania.slav...
- EGreg 8y agoWhy did it take so long? EDIT: again, heavily downvoted for merely inquiring why slavery in the middle east persisted It seems it’s only acceptable to discuss the moral failings of the US, or attacks on Westerners, while peoples and nations in the middle east are “below” criticism or comment eh? “We” are too englightened and talking about “them” is diverting the conversation from what really matters?
- CodeCube 8y agoI think this one sentence from that article gives a strong clue: "Activists are arrested for fighting the practice." Everyone is always quick these days (at least, here in the US) to decry "Social Justice Warriors" as if they are a bad thing ... but for many across the world and across history, they were the saving grace; someone who dared ask, "why are we doing this?"
- wu-ikkyu 8y agoFrederick Douglass' autobiography is one of the most inspiring books I've ever read, a book which every American should read. However, after reading his story, one cannot help but be angered by the many who push the popular, patronizing, and cryptically racist mantra that black americans don't have the power within themselves to overcome the legacy of slavery. https://youtu.be/_DUyOg49gHw https://youtu.be/_DUyOg49gHw
- fwip 8y agoSpeak for yourself. I personally find it simple to see direct parallels between his speech and the current treatment of black people. Nobody is saying "it is impossible for a black person to make it in America, because of racism." But racism does stack the deck against them.
- wu-ikkyu 8y ago>stack the deck against them The question is: how should one react to learning that life is unfair and full of adversity against them? Perhaps the Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass could serve as a good example? I wonder if Douglass had just remained hopeless, blamed others, and waited on the government to fix his problems, instead of learning to read, educating himself, and becoming resolutely determined to gain freedom, would we even be talking about him right now? Surely Douglass was delt far worse cards than most american's complaining about the deck today.
- throwawayjava 8y agoYou've done a lot of reasoning and deriving and explaining, but the fundamental conclusion you reach through all that work: > I wonder if Douglass had... blamed others... instead of learning to read, educating himself, and becoming resolutely determined to gain freedom, [we would not] even be talking about him right now has as its counter-example the very discussion in which you're taking part... Douglass is a perfect example of two facts that cut agains the thesis of your comments in this thread. His work demonstrates that 1) critique is necessary; and 2) placing blame where it is due is NOT, as your question insinuates, mutually exclusive with action or self-improvement.
- peterwwillis 8y ago> "By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down. Yea! we wept when we remembered Zion. We hanged our harps upon the willows in the midst thereof. For there, they that carried us away captive, required of us a song; and they who wasted us required of us mirth, saying, Sing us one of the songs of Zion. How can we sing the Lord's song in a strange land? If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning. If I do not remember thee, let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth." > What, to the American slave, is your 4th of July? I answer; a day that reveals to him, more than all other days in the year, the gross injustice and cruelty to which he is the constant victim. To him, your celebration is a sham; your boasted liberty, an unholy license; your national greatness, swelling vanity; your sounds of rejoicing are empty and heartless; your denunciation of tyrants, brass fronted impudence; your shouts of liberty and equality, hollow mockery; your prayers and hymns, your sermons and thanksgivings, with all your religious parade and solemnity, are, to Him, mere bombast, fraud, deception, impiety, and hypocrisy-a thin veil to cover up crimes which would disgrace a nation of savages. There is not a nation on the earth guilty of practices more shocking and bloody than are the people of the United States, at this very hour. Douglas was woke af. It looks like there's a maritime museum dedicated to him and Isaac Myers right near where Douglas lived in Baltimore. I'm a bit ashamed to admit I had no idea this existed, and I lived there for 5 years. https://www.google.com/maps/place/Frederick+Douglass-Isaac+Myers+Maritime+Park/@39.2797457,-76.596331,15.75z/data=!4m12!1m6!3m5!1s0x89c80378c0a47ba9:0xa6cb5051d69eeb42!2sThames+Street+Wharf!8m2!3d39.2796024!4d-76.5967541!3m4!1s0x89c80378bc2b6d51:0x595b256d3568d579!8m2!3d39.2794286!4d-76.5960038 https://www.google.com/maps/place/Frederick+Douglass-Isaac+M...
- jernfrost 8y agoI've always found hypocrisy to be an American specialty like no other. Who else exerts so much time talking passionately about freedom while at the same time locking up more people than anybody else on the planet and invading more countries than anybody else on the planet. The Chinese and Russians e.g. seem a bit more honest about the machinations.
- geofft 8y agoThis song has been on my mind recently for just how much of a lie it is: If tomorrow all the things were gone I'd worked for all my life And I had to start again with just my children and my wife I'd thank my lucky stars to living here today 'Cause the flag still stands for freedom and they can't take that away
- lizardskull 8y agoUnless you are building a time machine, what are the other distractions more beneficial to improving the present than using that precious time to consern yourself with the far past mistakes made by humans?
- hi41 8y agoI have great admiration for Frederick Douglass. He must have had great drive within to be a self learner. His writings and speaches are so good!