6 ms·

The great firewall of China: Xi Jinping’s internet shutdown

102 points by nwrk 8y ago

stretchwithme 8y ago
They want freedom from interference so they are free to interfere.
woodandsteel 8y ago
Based on comments to previous HN links on this topic, I expect we will be seeing some whataboutism that tries to divert criticism of China. So let ask anyone who makes such a comment, what is your political philosophy, are you for liberal democracy or Xi's brand of authoritarianism, or are you just a cynic who thinks all reform efforts are hopeless, or what?
- dmitrygr 8y ago
  Return question for you: do you believe as you imply that government exists in only two forms? Either a liberal democracy or authoritarianism?
  - woodandsteel 8y ago
    No I don't. That's why my remark included "or what." But I listed those two because those are the two main types in the world today. Myself, I support liberal democracy in this battle. And let me ask you back, what type do you support?
    - dmitrygr 8y ago
      I prefer a government that stays out of the way, does not tell the people how to live, whom to transact with, or how. One that occupies itself solely with external security of the country. There aren't such any out there. We'll get there, eventually, I hope.
  - outlace 8y ago
    There’s surely a spectrum from authoritarianism to liberal democracy, but there’s also a case to be made for free vs not free countries: if you can get into a public Twitter spat with the President of your country, and not worry someone will come break your legs (or worse) the next day, I call that a free country. Everything else is not.
    - RVuRnvbM2e 8y ago
      The thing with US free speech though is that it is mostly only allowed in specific, ineffectual circumstances - like Twitter or "free speech zones". Try doing something that is actually effective - like staging a protest - and you'll be charged with "unlawful demonstrating". How is that freedom? https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/29/us/politics/womens-march-arrests-dc.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/29/us/politics/womens-march-... There are plenty of countries around the world that have real free speech. China is of course much worse than the US, but I don't think the US is the gold standard here.
      - learc83 8y ago
        >Try doing something that is actually effective - like staging a protest - and you'll be charged with "unlawful demonstrating". How is that freedom? The 600 or so people who were arrested did so on purpose as part of the protest. They went there with the goal of being arrested and they staged a sit-in of a Senate office building in order to accomplish that goal. There were tens of thousands of other protesters marching through the streets who weren't arrested, asked to leave, or even bothered. >There are plenty of countries around the world that have real free speech. I don't know of a country in the world were taking over the atrium of a government building and refusing to leave when the police order you to wouldn't get you arrested. What countries are you thinking of?
        _jahh 8y ago
        Op bloviates/ they probably hate / those United States
      - forapurpose 8y ago
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - dogma1138 8y ago
    Of course there is a spectrum and more than one way to skin a cat, but when voicing a political opinion results in institutionalized punishment you can’t claim that the country is free regardless of any other circumstances. As someone else said here just the fact that you can get into a Twitter flame war with Trump proves the US is a free country not otherwise.
- duxup 8y ago
  The typical pattern for a while was something like "I'm in (or was) in China and things are fine, I had no problem using the internet...". Then some other stuff and some weird comment like "It was nice that I could walk around China freely and not have to worry about thieves unlike in the US."
  - dogma1138 8y ago
    China is filled with scammers, you are much less likely to get mugged as a westerner in major cities but you are in open season for the millions (literally) of thieves that use other means knowing that law enforcement is ineffective especially when it comes to foreigners as long as you don’t beat them up.
    - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
      Most of the scammers appeal to ones vanity/vices. That’s why the biggest scam still revolves around lady bars. The law enforcement has a piece of the action, so they are of course ineffective. The police just care about violent crime, anything else is fair game unless Congress is in their once a year weekly session (at least in Beijing).
    - forapurpose 8y ago
      > you are much less likely to get mugged as a westerner in major cities ... Less likely than where? Crime in western cities is at long-term lows. I've walked through many neighborhoods, rich and poor, in many western cities without concern.
  - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
    There are plenty of us laowai who were in China and didn’t think the internet was fine. My entire foreigner social circle at Microsoft China were unhappy with it, and no one could keep a VPN going reliably (unless they used free Azure credits). However, most left because of the apocalyptic pollution, not because of the bad internet.
    - duxup 8y ago
- _jahh 8y ago
  What about think democracy and statism coexist ? And authoritarianism with proper consideration for harmony of outcomes maybe viable path to stable eudomia
  - forapurpose 8y ago
    > And authoritarianism with proper consideration for harmony The evidence is overwhelming: The only path to freedom and prosperity for the people (i.e., not the ones in government) is democracy and freedom. Name a first world country without freedom and democracy.
    - dang 8y ago
      Please don't take HN threads into generic ideological arguments. Those are deeply repetitive and therefore off topic here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- dang 8y ago
  Please keep generic political and national flamewar off Hacker News. It's not what this site is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Proven 8y ago
> To maintain his “Chinanet”, Xi seems willing to accept the costs in terms of economic development It's zero cost to the government. They're communists, they can take whatever they want as as much as they need.
nstart 8y ago
Reading this article triggered some feelings I've been having for a while. Honestly the internet, and everything political feels like a shitshow that's exceptionally depressing. Recently there were racial riots in Sri Lanka. The government raced to block social media, messaging, and VPN's. Hell, even mobile connections were disrupted when people were desperately trying to contact their relatives while their houses burned. The government's reasoning was that they wanted to quash rumours. No talk of what they did in the lead up to the riots when communities kept pointing out fascist groups steadily gaining more steam and operating with a middle finger held up to the law. The government also ordered a media blackout during the time. China praised these actions. China is also heavily invested in Sri Lanka as part of its belt project. I have no doubts that eventually we'll see similar censorship arrive in SL. Criticism of the predatory nature of China will be blocked ruthlessly with the power that the Chinese gov seems to exert over social networks. China will probably happily extend its technology to countries under its belt project too. I can't see how this wouldn't benefit them. In the midst of this, the US is also busy fighting China's ownership of Sri Lankan resources. The result is a split of political factions that have chosen China or US. The US media is now pushing stories that Sri Lanka's previous regime took campaign contributions as under the table payments from China. The thing is, while I appreciate investigative journalism, everything around feels like propaganda. This article feels like propaganda. At some point it feels miserable that whatever I read is trying to manipulate me rather than inform me. And if I can't be manipulated, then I'll be controlled instead. So when I think of the Internet, I don't really think of some powerful tool in my hand anymore. At a deeper level, it's just another propaganda machine that people will use against me, or take away from me if I don't play by their rules.
zawerf 8y ago
Did the US ever respond to China's use of the "Great Cannon" on github? Having a nation state actor so publicly attack/censor a small company shouldn't be tolerated.
- whatcanthisbee 8y ago
  well if you look at comments on reddit/youtube/etc, you'll find a lot of Chinese-sponsored comments ;) look for the wumaos! too bad China don't have whistleblowers because the Chinese gov. are too effective --- it'll simply go after the family members...
- orev 8y ago
  We’re already starting a trade war with them over unfair business practices, and one could argue this incident would fall under that. What else do you want to see? Bombs and missiles?
  - curiousgal 8y ago
    >We’re already starting a trade war with them over unfair business practices Technically you've started a trade war with everyone so it's hard to determine whether unfair business practices are the real reason or not.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - orev 8y ago
      I don’t disagree but many economists do agree that something should be done about China — not so much for the rest of the world. Most likely Trump just happened to get it right with China (the sentiment at least, maybe not the method) while flailing around. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
      - ctchocula 8y ago
        Can you list some economists that agree with Trump something should be done about China? Most economists I've heard suggests the opposite, so a citation would be great.

102 points by nwrk 8y ago

They want freedom from interference so they are free to interfere.

Based on comments to previous HN links on this topic, I expect we will be seeing some whataboutism that tries to divert criticism of China. So let ask anyone who makes such a comment, what is your political philosophy, are you for liberal democracy or Xi's brand of authoritarianism, or are you just a cynic who thinks all reform efforts are hopeless, or what?

dmitrygr 8y ago
Return question for you: do you believe as you imply that government exists in only two forms? Either a liberal democracy or authoritarianism?
- woodandsteel 8y ago
  No I don't. That's why my remark included "or what." But I listed those two because those are the two main types in the world today. Myself, I support liberal democracy in this battle. And let me ask you back, what type do you support?
  - dmitrygr 8y ago
    I prefer a government that stays out of the way, does not tell the people how to live, whom to transact with, or how. One that occupies itself solely with external security of the country. There aren't such any out there. We'll get there, eventually, I hope.
- outlace 8y ago
  There’s surely a spectrum from authoritarianism to liberal democracy, but there’s also a case to be made for free vs not free countries: if you can get into a public Twitter spat with the President of your country, and not worry someone will come break your legs (or worse) the next day, I call that a free country. Everything else is not.
  - RVuRnvbM2e 8y ago
    The thing with US free speech though is that it is mostly only allowed in specific, ineffectual circumstances - like Twitter or "free speech zones". Try doing something that is actually effective - like staging a protest - and you'll be charged with "unlawful demonstrating". How is that freedom? https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/29/us/politics/womens-march-arrests-dc.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/29/us/politics/womens-march-... There are plenty of countries around the world that have real free speech. China is of course much worse than the US, but I don't think the US is the gold standard here.
    - learc83 8y ago
      >Try doing something that is actually effective - like staging a protest - and you'll be charged with "unlawful demonstrating". How is that freedom? The 600 or so people who were arrested did so on purpose as part of the protest. They went there with the goal of being arrested and they staged a sit-in of a Senate office building in order to accomplish that goal. There were tens of thousands of other protesters marching through the streets who weren't arrested, asked to leave, or even bothered. >There are plenty of countries around the world that have real free speech. I don't know of a country in the world were taking over the atrium of a government building and refusing to leave when the police order you to wouldn't get you arrested. What countries are you thinking of?
      - _jahh 8y ago
        Op bloviates/ they probably hate / those United States
    - forapurpose 8y ago
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- dogma1138 8y ago
  Of course there is a spectrum and more than one way to skin a cat, but when voicing a political opinion results in institutionalized punishment you can’t claim that the country is free regardless of any other circumstances. As someone else said here just the fact that you can get into a Twitter flame war with Trump proves the US is a free country not otherwise.
duxup 8y ago
The typical pattern for a while was something like "I'm in (or was) in China and things are fine, I had no problem using the internet...". Then some other stuff and some weird comment like "It was nice that I could walk around China freely and not have to worry about thieves unlike in the US."
- dogma1138 8y ago
  China is filled with scammers, you are much less likely to get mugged as a westerner in major cities but you are in open season for the millions (literally) of thieves that use other means knowing that law enforcement is ineffective especially when it comes to foreigners as long as you don’t beat them up.
  - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
    Most of the scammers appeal to ones vanity/vices. That’s why the biggest scam still revolves around lady bars. The law enforcement has a piece of the action, so they are of course ineffective. The police just care about violent crime, anything else is fair game unless Congress is in their once a year weekly session (at least in Beijing).
  - forapurpose 8y ago
    > you are much less likely to get mugged as a westerner in major cities ... Less likely than where? Crime in western cities is at long-term lows. I've walked through many neighborhoods, rich and poor, in many western cities without concern.
- seanmcdirmid 8y ago
  There are plenty of us laowai who were in China and didn’t think the internet was fine. My entire foreigner social circle at Microsoft China were unhappy with it, and no one could keep a VPN going reliably (unless they used free Azure credits). However, most left because of the apocalyptic pollution, not because of the bad internet.
  - duxup 8y ago
_jahh 8y ago
What about think democracy and statism coexist ? And authoritarianism with proper consideration for harmony of outcomes maybe viable path to stable eudomia
- forapurpose 8y ago
  > And authoritarianism with proper consideration for harmony The evidence is overwhelming: The only path to freedom and prosperity for the people (i.e., not the ones in government) is democracy and freedom. Name a first world country without freedom and democracy.
  - dang 8y ago
    Please don't take HN threads into generic ideological arguments. Those are deeply repetitive and therefore off topic here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
dang 8y ago
Please keep generic political and national flamewar off Hacker News. It's not what this site is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Proven 8y ago

> To maintain his “Chinanet”, Xi seems willing to accept the costs in terms of economic development It's zero cost to the government. They're communists, they can take whatever they want as as much as they need.

nstart 8y ago

Reading this article triggered some feelings I've been having for a while. Honestly the internet, and everything political feels like a shitshow that's exceptionally depressing. Recently there were racial riots in Sri Lanka. The government raced to block social media, messaging, and VPN's. Hell, even mobile connections were disrupted when people were desperately trying to contact their relatives while their houses burned. The government's reasoning was that they wanted to quash rumours. No talk of what they did in the lead up to the riots when communities kept pointing out fascist groups steadily gaining more steam and operating with a middle finger held up to the law. The government also ordered a media blackout during the time. China praised these actions. China is also heavily invested in Sri Lanka as part of its belt project. I have no doubts that eventually we'll see similar censorship arrive in SL. Criticism of the predatory nature of China will be blocked ruthlessly with the power that the Chinese gov seems to exert over social networks. China will probably happily extend its technology to countries under its belt project too. I can't see how this wouldn't benefit them. In the midst of this, the US is also busy fighting China's ownership of Sri Lankan resources. The result is a split of political factions that have chosen China or US. The US media is now pushing stories that Sri Lanka's previous regime took campaign contributions as under the table payments from China. The thing is, while I appreciate investigative journalism, everything around feels like propaganda. This article feels like propaganda. At some point it feels miserable that whatever I read is trying to manipulate me rather than inform me. And if I can't be manipulated, then I'll be controlled instead. So when I think of the Internet, I don't really think of some powerful tool in my hand anymore. At a deeper level, it's just another propaganda machine that people will use against me, or take away from me if I don't play by their rules.

zawerf 8y ago

Did the US ever respond to China's use of the "Great Cannon" on github? Having a nation state actor so publicly attack/censor a small company shouldn't be tolerated.

whatcanthisbee 8y ago
well if you look at comments on reddit/youtube/etc, you'll find a lot of Chinese-sponsored comments ;) look for the wumaos! too bad China don't have whistleblowers because the Chinese gov. are too effective --- it'll simply go after the family members...
orev 8y ago
We’re already starting a trade war with them over unfair business practices, and one could argue this incident would fall under that. What else do you want to see? Bombs and missiles?
- curiousgal 8y ago
  >We’re already starting a trade war with them over unfair business practices Technically you've started a trade war with everyone so it's hard to determine whether unfair business practices are the real reason or not.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - orev 8y ago
    I don’t disagree but many economists do agree that something should be done about China — not so much for the rest of the world. Most likely Trump just happened to get it right with China (the sentiment at least, maybe not the method) while flailing around. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
    - ctchocula 8y ago
      Can you list some economists that agree with Trump something should be done about China? Most economists I've heard suggests the opposite, so a citation would be great.