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This has been a real problem with facial recognition. Faces used to train engines are typically Caucasian, so the ability to distinguish other ethnicities is qu

This has been a real problem with facial recognition. Faces used to train engines are typically Caucasian, so the ability to distinguish other ethnicities is quite sub-par. https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2016/04/the-underlying-bias-of-facial-recognition-systems/476991/ https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2016/04/the-u...

pbhjpbhj 8y ago
Isn't there a problem with shadow contrast which makes features more difficult to pick out on darker skinned faces? I vaguely recall an East Asian developer giving that reason for why he developed on Western data-sets.
- Rjevski 8y ago
  Most likely it’s an issue with contrast and overall darker skin colour. Can be solved by illuminating the face with IR though, which should work across all ethnicities.
  - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
    Yes, but then you need special equipment rather than standard cameras (that usually filter IR); which would prove the point that it's about physical limitations rather than racism.
    - DanBC 8y ago
      The racism comes from saying "We recognise human faces" and then not recognising a significant proportion of humans.
      - pc86 8y ago
        That's not racism, that's laziness. Or perhaps just being a bad engineer, if you want to be more cynical about it. It's not that hard to find both conscious and subconscious examples of systemic or individual racism. Engineers taking the easy path with webcam facial recognition is probably not a good one and serves only to give more fuel to those who claim people jump to the racism cry too quickly.
        dagw 8y ago
        That's not racism, that's laziness. If the system had failed for with people with different hair color rather than skin color would they have been equally lazy?
        Dylan16807 8y ago
        If it was hitting the same percentages? Very likely yes.
        pc86 8y ago
        What else would they have been?
        krapp 8y ago
        > That's not racism, that's laziness. Or perhaps just being a bad engineer, if you want to be more cynical about it. It can be both. An attitude that considers facial recognition software acceptable if it only recognizes light-skinned people is both lazy and racist. Only choosing to test on light-skinned people is racist because doing so assumes dark skinned people are an exception or an outlier, rather than an equally valid part of the set of "human faces."
        v_lisivka 8y ago
        Whites have dark skin at the end of each summer.
        krapp 8y ago
        True, but that doesn't really contradict the premise of my comment. The assumption of ones own race being the default color for humans (rather than an arbitrary value) that leads to facial recognition software being trained on a data set so narrow that the resulting software can't even recognize skin colors that diverge from that norm is as much about implicit, albeit unintentional, racial bias as it is the particular technical problems involved and the need for engineers to cut costs and meet deadlines. It's not entirely racist, but racism is a component.
    - nitrogen 8y ago
      Most cheap cameras actually don't filter out IR; it often shows up as blue or purple. You can use this fact to see if an IR remote is working -- just shine it at your cellphone camera or webcam. Whether there's enough IR sensitivity to be able to illuminate a face is another question.
- toomuchgov 8y ago
  We call 'em occidental datasets 'round these parts.
- thecatspaw 8y ago
  Wouldnt it make more sense then to develop _not_ on the easycase but the hard ones?
  - Jonnax 8y ago
    Yeah but, you know, deadlines to meet and contracts to win.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - faceplanted 8y ago
      gives the best performance metrics as well
  - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
    MVP presumably.
- analyst74 8y ago
  I find this phenomenon of protecting oneself from being called racist fascinating. Your opinion is not exactly racist, but you had to bring up another minority, in case someone accuses you?
ForRealsies 8y ago
I imagine China has fixed that problem, given their present day "1984-esque" surveillance tech.

pbhjpbhj 8y ago

Isn't there a problem with shadow contrast which makes features more difficult to pick out on darker skinned faces? I vaguely recall an East Asian developer giving that reason for why he developed on Western data-sets.

Rjevski 8y ago
Most likely it’s an issue with contrast and overall darker skin colour. Can be solved by illuminating the face with IR though, which should work across all ethnicities.
- pbhjpbhj 8y ago
  Yes, but then you need special equipment rather than standard cameras (that usually filter IR); which would prove the point that it's about physical limitations rather than racism.
  - DanBC 8y ago
    The racism comes from saying "We recognise human faces" and then not recognising a significant proportion of humans.
    - pc86 8y ago
      That's not racism, that's laziness. Or perhaps just being a bad engineer, if you want to be more cynical about it. It's not that hard to find both conscious and subconscious examples of systemic or individual racism. Engineers taking the easy path with webcam facial recognition is probably not a good one and serves only to give more fuel to those who claim people jump to the racism cry too quickly.
      - dagw 8y ago
        That's not racism, that's laziness. If the system had failed for with people with different hair color rather than skin color would they have been equally lazy?
        Dylan16807 8y ago
        If it was hitting the same percentages? Very likely yes.
        pc86 8y ago
        What else would they have been?
      - krapp 8y ago
        > That's not racism, that's laziness. Or perhaps just being a bad engineer, if you want to be more cynical about it. It can be both. An attitude that considers facial recognition software acceptable if it only recognizes light-skinned people is both lazy and racist. Only choosing to test on light-skinned people is racist because doing so assumes dark skinned people are an exception or an outlier, rather than an equally valid part of the set of "human faces."
        v_lisivka 8y ago
        Whites have dark skin at the end of each summer.
        krapp 8y ago
        True, but that doesn't really contradict the premise of my comment. The assumption of ones own race being the default color for humans (rather than an arbitrary value) that leads to facial recognition software being trained on a data set so narrow that the resulting software can't even recognize skin colors that diverge from that norm is as much about implicit, albeit unintentional, racial bias as it is the particular technical problems involved and the need for engineers to cut costs and meet deadlines. It's not entirely racist, but racism is a component.
  - nitrogen 8y ago
    Most cheap cameras actually don't filter out IR; it often shows up as blue or purple. You can use this fact to see if an IR remote is working -- just shine it at your cellphone camera or webcam. Whether there's enough IR sensitivity to be able to illuminate a face is another question.
toomuchgov 8y ago
We call 'em occidental datasets 'round these parts.
thecatspaw 8y ago
Wouldnt it make more sense then to develop _not_ on the easycase but the hard ones?
- Jonnax 8y ago
  Yeah but, you know, deadlines to meet and contracts to win.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - faceplanted 8y ago
    gives the best performance metrics as well
- pbhjpbhj 8y ago
  MVP presumably.
analyst74 8y ago
I find this phenomenon of protecting oneself from being called racist fascinating. Your opinion is not exactly racist, but you had to bring up another minority, in case someone accuses you?

ForRealsies 8y ago

I imagine China has fixed that problem, given their present day "1984-esque" surveillance tech.