7 ms·

> There is no need to be going into a trade war against not only traditionally our rivals but also our allies now too. And yet other countries never seem to en

by xienze 8y ago

> There is no need to be going into a trade war against not only traditionally our rivals but also our allies now too. And yet other countries never seem to entertain the idea of both sides getting rid of all their tariffs, which is something Trump suggested at that G7 summit. Everyone goes nuts when the US suggests implementing tariffs against countries that already have tariffs against us. You gotta admit, the message seems to be that other countries are allowed to protect their domestic industry via tariffs and the US is just supposed to deal with it, don’t wanna start a trade war!

justin66 8y ago
Hopefully you realize that eliminating all tariffs was never a US negotiating position, it was a random stupid thing the president said.
- xienze 8y ago
  He wants reciprocity — you tariff me, I tariff you. It’s not just for grins. Get back to the original point: why is it acceptable for other countries to levy tariffs against the US but not the other way around?
  - sveme 8y ago
    But both sides already levy tariffs on the other side, just with different emphasises. Look at US truck tariffs as an example.
  - kasey_junk 8y ago
    The original point is that you are factually wrong. We already had tariffs on g7 countries. The country we have the least trade barriers in the world is Canada. He started a trade war with them. He ran on a platform of ending free trade agreements & protectionist policies. He’s enacting them. So it’s hard to take him serious when he suggests a free trade agreement with the g7 as a throwaway talking point.
  - s2g 8y ago
    > you tariff me, I tariff you Really, cause they described Trudeau as stabbing them in the back and said there is a special place in hell for people like him. He said Canada would respond with tariffs after Trump put in tariffs.
tanilama 8y ago
Can other countries trusy Trump administration at all at this point? It seems obvious, to deal with Trump, you have to prepare for the worst, since he is not predictable and tends to whatever he wants and whenever he desires.
- xienze 8y ago
  Maybe get back to the original question and the reason Trump is interested in starting a trade war? Why is it OK for other countries to levy tariffs against us but not the other way around?
  - fentonc 8y ago
    We levy plenty of tariffs on goods from other countries to protect local industries - on average ours are very slightly lower than places like the EU, but it’s like ~2.5% vs 3%, not 0% vs 30%, which seems to be your claim.
    - zaroth 8y ago
      “America’s taxes on imports are much lower than those of almost every other country.” — The NY Times China’s weight average tariffs are 3x higher than the United States, approximately 10% vs 3.5%.
      - morsch 8y ago
        ... when you nonsensically pretend that VAT is an import tax. "Once value-added taxes and sales taxes are included in an international comparison, America’s taxes on imports are much lower than those of almost every other country."[1] The point still stands when not considering VAT, but the difference is far less pronounced. Though I am hesitant to trust the authors' research given the above. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/business/trade-china-protectionism.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/business/trade-chin..., also https://tradediversion.net/2017/03/08/on-the-nyts-building-trade-walls/ https://tradediversion.net/2017/03/08/on-the-nyts-building-t...
      - 8y ago
pjc50 8y ago
The US has always argued for other countries to reduce their tariffs. Here's an article from 2002, for example: https://yaleglobal.yale.edu/content/obstacles-zero-tariffs https://yaleglobal.yale.edu/content/obstacles-zero-tariffs "The fact is that there is a strong feeling in the developing world that trade rules do not apply equally. Indeed, Washington lost the moral high ground earlier this year when it slapped steep tariffs on steel imports and locked in subsidies for its farmers. As well, the US has in place a sophisticated regime of non-tariff barriers such as anti-dumping laws that exporters from developing countries have found difficult, if not downright impossible, to circumvent. " (The "non-tariff barriers" are important - all kinds of environmental and safety standards could be considered as these, and they can be far more difficult to deal with than simply paying an import duty. This is another thing a lot of Brexiteers haven't realised)
- berthe 8y ago
  > The "non-tariff barriers" are important - all kinds of environmental and safety standards could be considered as these, and they can be far more difficult to deal with than simply paying an import duty. I'm glad the US has environmental and safety standards and enforces those (to some degree) on imports. Those actually accomplish some good and have positive externalities. It's also worth noting that other countries have significant non tariff barriers as well, perhaps more significant than the US, and ones with less positive effects. Some Chinese examples are the Great Firewall (https://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/08/business/international/china-internet-controls-us.html https://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/08/business/international/ch...) and fact that a large part of the Chinese economy is still state-owned (and could be politically directed to avoid importing American products without any need for a tariff).
lostcolony 8y ago
Interesting how despite a few other countries imposing tariffs on the US has still led to the US being the largest economy in the world. It's not a question of 'fairness', it's a question of what will actually improve our economy. Nothing out there suggests tariffs will do that; in fact, all data points to just the opposite. But you've basically ignored the OP in any case; do you have a response to the rather realistic and obvious projection that, given the nature of these, assembly jobs will move out of the US, since the fully assembled goods are not subject to tariffs, but the parts are?
masklinn 8y ago
> Everyone goes nuts when the US suggests implementing tariffs against countries that already have tariffs against us. You gotta admit, the message seems to be that other countries are allowed to protect their domestic industry via tariffs and the US is just supposed to deal with it, don’t wanna start a trade war! You do know the US is already heavily protectionist and many tariffs are protections against the US's price dumping due to its heavy subsidies, right? And that the US already has plenty of tariffs to boot?
- echotango 8y ago
  Yup. Heavily protectionist. Thats exactly how an unbiased economist would characterize US trade policy. Stop watching msnbc dude. The USA became the world's largest evonomy with massive tariffs on basically all imports. Smoot Hawley Act anyone? Those were removed gradualy starting in the 1970's and lo and behold the trade deficit sky rocketted while the manufacturing economy plummeted.
  - n1231231231234 8y ago
    i cannot see how the US has no/fewer/lower tariffs than their trading partners. here are some numbers for US-EU trade: https://www.statista.com/statistics/547412/average-eu-and-us-import-tariffs-by-sector-2013/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/547412/average-eu-and-us... and here's an article arguing why there's no US-EU trade deficit, in German, though: http://www.sueddeutsche.de/wirtschaft/handelsstreit-usa-eu-handelsueberschuss-1.4010706 http://www.sueddeutsche.de/wirtschaft/handelsstreit-usa-eu-h... what they argue for: sure, looking at goods, there's a deficit for the US. But once you take services and primary and secondary income into account, then the US actually cuts the better deal with the EU. imv, trump/the current US gov are twisting the numbers to get a better deal.
    - echotango 8y ago
      Could you explain what services, primary and secondary income mean in this context and why they matter? Im sorry I don't read German.
  - 8y ago

by xienze 8y ago

justin66 8y ago

Hopefully you realize that eliminating all tariffs was never a US negotiating position, it was a random stupid thing the president said.

xienze 8y ago
He wants reciprocity — you tariff me, I tariff you. It’s not just for grins. Get back to the original point: why is it acceptable for other countries to levy tariffs against the US but not the other way around?
- sveme 8y ago
  But both sides already levy tariffs on the other side, just with different emphasises. Look at US truck tariffs as an example.
- kasey_junk 8y ago
  The original point is that you are factually wrong. We already had tariffs on g7 countries. The country we have the least trade barriers in the world is Canada. He started a trade war with them. He ran on a platform of ending free trade agreements & protectionist policies. He’s enacting them. So it’s hard to take him serious when he suggests a free trade agreement with the g7 as a throwaway talking point.
- s2g 8y ago
  > you tariff me, I tariff you Really, cause they described Trudeau as stabbing them in the back and said there is a special place in hell for people like him. He said Canada would respond with tariffs after Trump put in tariffs.

tanilama 8y ago

Can other countries trusy Trump administration at all at this point? It seems obvious, to deal with Trump, you have to prepare for the worst, since he is not predictable and tends to whatever he wants and whenever he desires.

xienze 8y ago
Maybe get back to the original question and the reason Trump is interested in starting a trade war? Why is it OK for other countries to levy tariffs against us but not the other way around?
- fentonc 8y ago
  We levy plenty of tariffs on goods from other countries to protect local industries - on average ours are very slightly lower than places like the EU, but it’s like ~2.5% vs 3%, not 0% vs 30%, which seems to be your claim.
  - zaroth 8y ago
    “America’s taxes on imports are much lower than those of almost every other country.” — The NY Times China’s weight average tariffs are 3x higher than the United States, approximately 10% vs 3.5%.
    - morsch 8y ago
      ... when you nonsensically pretend that VAT is an import tax. "Once value-added taxes and sales taxes are included in an international comparison, America’s taxes on imports are much lower than those of almost every other country."[1] The point still stands when not considering VAT, but the difference is far less pronounced. Though I am hesitant to trust the authors' research given the above. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/business/trade-china-protectionism.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/business/trade-chin..., also https://tradediversion.net/2017/03/08/on-the-nyts-building-trade-walls/ https://tradediversion.net/2017/03/08/on-the-nyts-building-t...
    - 8y ago

pjc50 8y ago

The US has always argued for other countries to reduce their tariffs. Here's an article from 2002, for example: https://yaleglobal.yale.edu/content/obstacles-zero-tariffs https://yaleglobal.yale.edu/content/obstacles-zero-tariffs "The fact is that there is a strong feeling in the developing world that trade rules do not apply equally. Indeed, Washington lost the moral high ground earlier this year when it slapped steep tariffs on steel imports and locked in subsidies for its farmers. As well, the US has in place a sophisticated regime of non-tariff barriers such as anti-dumping laws that exporters from developing countries have found difficult, if not downright impossible, to circumvent. " (The "non-tariff barriers" are important - all kinds of environmental and safety standards could be considered as these, and they can be far more difficult to deal with than simply paying an import duty. This is another thing a lot of Brexiteers haven't realised)

berthe 8y ago
> The "non-tariff barriers" are important - all kinds of environmental and safety standards could be considered as these, and they can be far more difficult to deal with than simply paying an import duty. I'm glad the US has environmental and safety standards and enforces those (to some degree) on imports. Those actually accomplish some good and have positive externalities. It's also worth noting that other countries have significant non tariff barriers as well, perhaps more significant than the US, and ones with less positive effects. Some Chinese examples are the Great Firewall (https://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/08/business/international/china-internet-controls-us.html https://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/08/business/international/ch...) and fact that a large part of the Chinese economy is still state-owned (and could be politically directed to avoid importing American products without any need for a tariff).

lostcolony 8y ago

Interesting how despite a few other countries imposing tariffs on the US has still led to the US being the largest economy in the world. It's not a question of 'fairness', it's a question of what will actually improve our economy. Nothing out there suggests tariffs will do that; in fact, all data points to just the opposite. But you've basically ignored the OP in any case; do you have a response to the rather realistic and obvious projection that, given the nature of these, assembly jobs will move out of the US, since the fully assembled goods are not subject to tariffs, but the parts are?

masklinn 8y ago

> Everyone goes nuts when the US suggests implementing tariffs against countries that already have tariffs against us. You gotta admit, the message seems to be that other countries are allowed to protect their domestic industry via tariffs and the US is just supposed to deal with it, don’t wanna start a trade war! You do know the US is already heavily protectionist and many tariffs are protections against the US's price dumping due to its heavy subsidies, right? And that the US already has plenty of tariffs to boot?

echotango 8y ago
Yup. Heavily protectionist. Thats exactly how an unbiased economist would characterize US trade policy. Stop watching msnbc dude. The USA became the world's largest evonomy with massive tariffs on basically all imports. Smoot Hawley Act anyone? Those were removed gradualy starting in the 1970's and lo and behold the trade deficit sky rocketted while the manufacturing economy plummeted.
- n1231231231234 8y ago
  i cannot see how the US has no/fewer/lower tariffs than their trading partners. here are some numbers for US-EU trade: https://www.statista.com/statistics/547412/average-eu-and-us-import-tariffs-by-sector-2013/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/547412/average-eu-and-us... and here's an article arguing why there's no US-EU trade deficit, in German, though: http://www.sueddeutsche.de/wirtschaft/handelsstreit-usa-eu-handelsueberschuss-1.4010706 http://www.sueddeutsche.de/wirtschaft/handelsstreit-usa-eu-h... what they argue for: sure, looking at goods, there's a deficit for the US. But once you take services and primary and secondary income into account, then the US actually cuts the better deal with the EU. imv, trump/the current US gov are twisting the numbers to get a better deal.
  - echotango 8y ago
    Could you explain what services, primary and secondary income mean in this context and why they matter? Im sorry I don't read German.
- 8y ago