6 ms·

The Chinese Communist Party’s fear of its people spells trouble

76 points by okket 8y ago

zeth___ 8y ago
>To be a great, rather than just a big power, China needs the world’s acceptance. More open domestic markets, fewer hidden subsidies and less dumping, less industrial espionage and less aggression in the South China Sea would all help. Why? The US posturing and genocide in South America for 200 years did not stop it from being a great power, that the pacific rim will now see the same from a yellow and not white face doesn't change much.
- coldtea 8y ago
  It's funny how pundits from countries that have (and are still doing) all those things, point the finger at other countries for doing the same (and, internationally, far less). "aggression in the South China Sea"? The US has invaded 3+ countries in the last 20 years producing as much failed states. Is it just a "big" and not a "great" power?
  - em3rgent0rdr 8y ago
    Note: The Economist is British.
    - zeth___ 8y ago
      So was Thatcher, but you could find no one better cheerleader for the Neo-liberal policies of the US than her.
    - coldtea 8y ago
      UK itself has for 5+ decades been deeply tied to the power across the Atlantic, so?
  - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
    Pundits are more than happy to criticize their own countries or (in this case) their allies. You won’t find many Economist articles going easy on the UK or USA. They are just giving China equal treatment, and it is only Chinese insecurity that must bring up the USA in any talk about it (in contrast, you won’t find people talking about China when reviewing articles about US aggression).
    - coldtea 8y ago
      >You won’t find many Economist articles going easy on the UK or USA. On the contrary, I find Economist playing the anglosaxon party line in almost any international issue.
      - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
        Do you read the economist often? If you go to the current issue, how many negative articles about the USA and UK can you count? It ain’t zero, heck, just by the counts alone it is easy to argue that the economist is softer on China than it is on the UK and USA.
        coldtea 8y ago
        >If you go to the current issue, how many negative articles about the USA and UK can you count? Many, that criticize those countries from the perspective of what the power elites of those same countries want them to do.
        seanmcdirmid 8y ago
        Ah, then what is your point if they call out American aggression anyways because that aligns with the power elite interest (as they did during the Iraq war)?
        coldtea 8y ago
        The power elite has competing fractions, which are aligned for the most part (e.g. in economic policy), but have different (and often merely token) differences in other areas, like when to use the carrot and when the stick in foreign policy matters. That other countries are their subjects upon which to use carrots and sticks, however, they agree perfectly.
- Hnrobert42 8y ago
  Many would argue your example supports the author’s point. US meddling in South and Central America significantly tarnished the US reputation. Further, destabilzed govts led to underperforming economies that could be great alternative trade partners. Instead, those countries are now vulnerable to Chinese influence in return for investment captial. While you may have wished to divert attention from China or simply return to your favorite whipping boy, you also highlight the need to conform with Western ideals.
  - zeth___ 8y ago
    If the US reputation was tarnished so much list all the countries where US backed invasions or coups killed more than 100,000 people in the 20th century. And please call it what it is: genocide. I do enjoy a bit of whataboutism in the morning, the need to not murder millions is not a western ideal, the First, Second, Korean, Vietnam and Iraq wars all show how little value democracies place on the lives of non-citizens.
    - bshepard 8y ago
      Nor does the US democracy place value on the lives of citizens in oppressed nationality groups; the so-called "prison system" of the US is a veiled concentration camp archipelago, the largest ever in human history.
saagarjha 8y ago
I'd argue that a government is supposed to fear its citizens. It's just not supposed to censor them and take away their rights to quell that fear: rather, it should hold itself accountable and not do things that would cause resentment.
- jgbond 8y ago
  Or perhaps it could be a cooperative relationship where neither side has to fear?
  - oceanman888 8y ago
    Maybe block-chain can actually be useful this time, it is quite easy to create a news forum that even the most powerful government can not bring down. where educated individuals are rewarded to vote on articles just like HN. Here in JP we see people holding cardboard stating how they are miss-treated in front of the ward office. Letting these voice be heard means more leverage to the citizen. like pressuring law changes. A large part of the world is not like America. In Chinese twitter there are quite a few words you simply can not type.
    - tehlike 8y ago
      Uncensorable distributed apps existed long before blockchain. I really hope you were sarcastic
      - oceanman888 8y ago
        That is ignorant of me, I know it existed but can't recall any popular ones that wasn't knocked down eventually, do you mind linking some source? thanks.
  - saagarjha 8y ago
    I'd love to hear more about how you intend to achieve this in a way that doesn't greatly reward either side for behaving poorly.
- 8y ago
vezycash 8y ago
From the article: "To suppress views of China that it does not like, the party is trying to replicate its domestic censorship on a global scale," says Isabel Hilton Real purpose behind EU's copyright filter?
- em3rgent0rdr 8y ago
  Even if that is not the intended purpose, it may inevitably end up being used for that.
geowwy 8y ago
This seems to be the key paragraph: > A confident power permits debate to flourish, unthreatened by ideas; a fearful > one will seek to manipulate or shut it down. The party is increasingly obliged > to try to replicate its domestic censorship on a global scale, to suppress > views of China that the party does not like, wherever they are manifested. > Sustained investment in propaganda in Chinese-language media and in Western > media, subtle and unsubtle attempts to exert influence through the party’s > United Front Work Department, pressuring business partners to support > political positions on Taiwan and the South China Sea, buying political > influence and muscle-flexing on Western campuses—all have caused alarm in > several countries recently, notably in Australia and New Zealand. I guess it shouldn't surprise anyone that China is trying to control the narrative overseas. Most major powers try to do the same.
- mirgj 8y ago
  Yes, indeed. It's quite strange that we never had this kind of criticism against US in the past when they always used the same kind of diplomacy (I mean, they're still doing it).
- throw8185 8y ago
  This is a good point. I definitely support free speech (that should go without saying), but it seems to be spread with a fervor not unlike how Christianity was spread during colonization. For example, is the quality of life in Mexico--with free speech and democracy--better than one like Singapore or even China? There are also different ideals of free speech too. The US version is very different from the European version. Free speech should be ultimate goal, but perhaps there are other steps that need to be achieved first.
  - sgift 8y ago
    Mexico doesn't have free speech in practice: If you speak out against the wrong people you get killed by the cartels. Also, we don't know what the quality of life in China is, because ... you cannot talk about things which are critical of the government. That is technically correct, but being allowed to criticize the government without getting send to a prison seems to be a common denominator, so we could start with that. That assumes you cannot work on free speech and "other steps" at the same time. Free speech is so easy, blocking it costs more resources than just accepting it. These resources could be used for "other steps", so blocking free speech is detrimental to them.
em3rgent0rdr 8y ago
Interesting how the State-Socialist authoritarian countries ended up not actually being an existential threat to freedom, due to the weakness of a planned economy. But since China embraced capitalism, it's economy became very strong, and so is now a more serious threat.
07d046 8y ago
I've just started reading Silent Invasian: China's Influence in Australia, which made headlines around the world last year when its original publisher decided not to publish it out of fear of what the Chinese Communist Party and its proxies in Australia would react. That China has this sort of influence (see also all the airlines and hotels and other companies that bent over backwards to apologise for listing China and Taiwan as separate countries) overseas already is worrying. On another note, I don't like the moral equivalency that seems to be popular between China and the US. The "but America does bad things too" response. The reality of America is often ugly, but it was founded and has always preached ideals like democracy and liberty and human rights and the rule of law. America's great failings are generally when it doesn't live up to its own ideals. Meanwhile, the Chinese Communist Party holds none of those ideals, sees the rights of the individual as completely subservient to the needs of the state, and has no qualms with wide scale censorship, jailing human rights lawyers and activists, harvesting the organs of political prisoners, etc. In my opinion, one of the most unfortunate consequences of China's growing power is that it gives other authoritarian countries cover to abuse human rights. We seem to be seeing it in the Philippines with Duterte, and just last week a US citizen was arrested (and hasn't been released) in Vietnam after being involved in a protest.
- philliphaydon 8y ago
  When ever I see people comment on the Philippines I wonder if they have any idea just what’s going on in the Philippines. I’m still yet to meet a single Filipino who does not like duterte.
  - majewsky 8y ago
    Devil's advocate: I've yet to meet a single North Korean who does not like Kim Jong-un. Popularity (both apparent and actual) and respect for human rights are frustratingly orthogonal.
- cbzbc 8y ago
  Remember the 80s when the Japanese were going to take over the world, and pulp novelists turned out airport thrillers in which the villain was a Japanese businessman?
dalbasal 8y ago
This is a tangent, but I noticed how this line feels like it (almost) requires no further support: "liberal democracy’s current ills have opened an.." While I'm not disagreeing, just don't recall reading a decent narration on what exactly is going on. What are liberal democracies' current ills? Did we agree on a list, when I wasn't looking?
- simonh 8y ago
  There are some trends in current international relations that are worrying for many people who support liberal democratic principles. The failure of the Euro, which was a landmark liberal project. The Brexit vote in Britain. American protectionism. Russian political interference and military aggression. China's renewed suppression of individual liberties and its moves to export it's totalitarian and censorious principles abroad. To be sure some of these are self-inflicted. The Euro was badly conceived and implemented. Brexit and Trump are the result of democratic votes. However they are clearly signs of a general swing away from liberal values. Liberalism and it's proponents in it's broadest sense bears much of the blame for all of this. By liberalism I do not mean socialism. I'm a lifelong Conservative voter. I believe in individual freedom and see the EU with it's freedoms of movement and trade as a cornerstone of individual liberties here in Britain and the rest of Europe. Trade free of arbitrary and capricious tariffs is another important freedom we are in danger of having curtailed. The Good Friday agreement that brought peace to Northern Ireland did so by granting Northern Irish the freedom to choose British or Irish citizenship or both and opened up the border, a triumph of increased individual liberty, and is under threat due to Brexit. Liberalism in it's broad sense cuts across the left/right political divide, at least here in the UK.
  - blattimwind 8y ago
    The Euro has failed? That's news to me.
    - growlist 8y ago
      Unemployment is at high levels in several eurozone countries, and this is blamed by some on the euro, and if you consider this a fair assessment and are unemployed I suppose you might think the euro has failed for you.
baybal2 8y ago
After meeting not one, but now around ~15 CCP members/officials of different statures in the party hierarchy. I can say that indeed a lot of things that drive the current generation of CCP's "hereditary nobility" (people in late forties to ~55 now) are manifestations of their social ineptness and insecurity. Their comparison to frailing 19th century European nobility, I think, is totally appropriate. What they afraid the most is "becoming nothing special people." The world outside China scares them, as they see there is no place for people like them in the modern society that China will inevitably and invariably become as it evolves economically
- nwatson 8y ago
  Thank you for this insight ... could you guess or know how many of these CCP functionaries, in spite of their insecurity, pursue their duty in good faith, versus engaging in self-dealing etc.?
  - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
    It is really hard to get promoted as an idealistic CCP functionary, so if anyone makes it to the somewhat upper stages, they will most definitely be in on whatever their peers are doing (meaning, they have enough dirt so that their peers don’t have to worry about them ratting them out, and they will put on great shows to please anyone higher than them so they can keep getting promoted). In the west, it is like finding an honest politician: they might exist, but they simply don’t win elections enough that you can really find them in higher offices you pay attention to.
    - baybal2 8y ago
      Sean, are you now in Shenzhen by any chance?
      - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
        Nope. Moved back from China almost 2 years ago.
Emma_Goldman 8y ago
This is a rather anemic entry in a 100-year-old genre. Westerners have been doom-mongering about the rise of China since at least the Boxer Rebellion. The FT ran a more informative and sober piece a week or two ago, on China's gambit to create a global energy network: https://www.ft.com/content/bdc31f94-68aa-11e8-b6eb-4acfcfb08c11 https://www.ft.com/content/bdc31f94-68aa-11e8-b6eb-4acfcfb08...
- cbzbc 8y ago
  Yes, generally with the economist ignore the editorials and read the news: https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/1991/10/-quot-the-economics-of-the-colonial-cringe-quot-about-the-economist-magazine-washington-post-1991/7415/ https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/1991/10/-quot... As you say, doom-mongering about various parts of the world is a venerable genre and one which the Economist resorts to on a fairly regular basis (at least once a year there'll be scare pieces on China, and an article on why the French economy is doomed).

76 points by okket 8y ago

>To be a great, rather than just a big power, China needs the world’s acceptance. More open domestic markets, fewer hidden subsidies and less dumping, less industrial espionage and less aggression in the South China Sea would all help. Why? The US posturing and genocide in South America for 200 years did not stop it from being a great power, that the pacific rim will now see the same from a yellow and not white face doesn't change much.

coldtea 8y ago
It's funny how pundits from countries that have (and are still doing) all those things, point the finger at other countries for doing the same (and, internationally, far less). "aggression in the South China Sea"? The US has invaded 3+ countries in the last 20 years producing as much failed states. Is it just a "big" and not a "great" power?
- em3rgent0rdr 8y ago
  Note: The Economist is British.
  - zeth___ 8y ago
    So was Thatcher, but you could find no one better cheerleader for the Neo-liberal policies of the US than her.
  - coldtea 8y ago
    UK itself has for 5+ decades been deeply tied to the power across the Atlantic, so?
- seanmcdirmid 8y ago
  Pundits are more than happy to criticize their own countries or (in this case) their allies. You won’t find many Economist articles going easy on the UK or USA. They are just giving China equal treatment, and it is only Chinese insecurity that must bring up the USA in any talk about it (in contrast, you won’t find people talking about China when reviewing articles about US aggression).
  - coldtea 8y ago
    >You won’t find many Economist articles going easy on the UK or USA. On the contrary, I find Economist playing the anglosaxon party line in almost any international issue.
    - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
      Do you read the economist often? If you go to the current issue, how many negative articles about the USA and UK can you count? It ain’t zero, heck, just by the counts alone it is easy to argue that the economist is softer on China than it is on the UK and USA.
      - coldtea 8y ago
        >If you go to the current issue, how many negative articles about the USA and UK can you count? Many, that criticize those countries from the perspective of what the power elites of those same countries want them to do.
        seanmcdirmid 8y ago
        Ah, then what is your point if they call out American aggression anyways because that aligns with the power elite interest (as they did during the Iraq war)?
        coldtea 8y ago
        The power elite has competing fractions, which are aligned for the most part (e.g. in economic policy), but have different (and often merely token) differences in other areas, like when to use the carrot and when the stick in foreign policy matters. That other countries are their subjects upon which to use carrots and sticks, however, they agree perfectly.
Hnrobert42 8y ago
Many would argue your example supports the author’s point. US meddling in South and Central America significantly tarnished the US reputation. Further, destabilzed govts led to underperforming economies that could be great alternative trade partners. Instead, those countries are now vulnerable to Chinese influence in return for investment captial. While you may have wished to divert attention from China or simply return to your favorite whipping boy, you also highlight the need to conform with Western ideals.
- zeth___ 8y ago
  If the US reputation was tarnished so much list all the countries where US backed invasions or coups killed more than 100,000 people in the 20th century. And please call it what it is: genocide. I do enjoy a bit of whataboutism in the morning, the need to not murder millions is not a western ideal, the First, Second, Korean, Vietnam and Iraq wars all show how little value democracies place on the lives of non-citizens.
  - bshepard 8y ago
    Nor does the US democracy place value on the lives of citizens in oppressed nationality groups; the so-called "prison system" of the US is a veiled concentration camp archipelago, the largest ever in human history.

saagarjha 8y ago

I'd argue that a government is supposed to fear its citizens. It's just not supposed to censor them and take away their rights to quell that fear: rather, it should hold itself accountable and not do things that would cause resentment.

jgbond 8y ago
Or perhaps it could be a cooperative relationship where neither side has to fear?
- oceanman888 8y ago
  Maybe block-chain can actually be useful this time, it is quite easy to create a news forum that even the most powerful government can not bring down. where educated individuals are rewarded to vote on articles just like HN. Here in JP we see people holding cardboard stating how they are miss-treated in front of the ward office. Letting these voice be heard means more leverage to the citizen. like pressuring law changes. A large part of the world is not like America. In Chinese twitter there are quite a few words you simply can not type.
  - tehlike 8y ago
    Uncensorable distributed apps existed long before blockchain. I really hope you were sarcastic
    - oceanman888 8y ago
      That is ignorant of me, I know it existed but can't recall any popular ones that wasn't knocked down eventually, do you mind linking some source? thanks.
- saagarjha 8y ago
  I'd love to hear more about how you intend to achieve this in a way that doesn't greatly reward either side for behaving poorly.
8y ago

vezycash 8y ago

From the article: "To suppress views of China that it does not like, the party is trying to replicate its domestic censorship on a global scale," says Isabel Hilton Real purpose behind EU's copyright filter?

em3rgent0rdr 8y ago
Even if that is not the intended purpose, it may inevitably end up being used for that.

geowwy 8y ago

This seems to be the key paragraph: > A confident power permits debate to flourish, unthreatened by ideas; a fearful > one will seek to manipulate or shut it down. The party is increasingly obliged > to try to replicate its domestic censorship on a global scale, to suppress > views of China that the party does not like, wherever they are manifested. > Sustained investment in propaganda in Chinese-language media and in Western > media, subtle and unsubtle attempts to exert influence through the party’s > United Front Work Department, pressuring business partners to support > political positions on Taiwan and the South China Sea, buying political > influence and muscle-flexing on Western campuses—all have caused alarm in > several countries recently, notably in Australia and New Zealand. I guess it shouldn't surprise anyone that China is trying to control the narrative overseas. Most major powers try to do the same.

mirgj 8y ago
Yes, indeed. It's quite strange that we never had this kind of criticism against US in the past when they always used the same kind of diplomacy (I mean, they're still doing it).
throw8185 8y ago
This is a good point. I definitely support free speech (that should go without saying), but it seems to be spread with a fervor not unlike how Christianity was spread during colonization. For example, is the quality of life in Mexico--with free speech and democracy--better than one like Singapore or even China? There are also different ideals of free speech too. The US version is very different from the European version. Free speech should be ultimate goal, but perhaps there are other steps that need to be achieved first.
- sgift 8y ago
  Mexico doesn't have free speech in practice: If you speak out against the wrong people you get killed by the cartels. Also, we don't know what the quality of life in China is, because ... you cannot talk about things which are critical of the government. That is technically correct, but being allowed to criticize the government without getting send to a prison seems to be a common denominator, so we could start with that. That assumes you cannot work on free speech and "other steps" at the same time. Free speech is so easy, blocking it costs more resources than just accepting it. These resources could be used for "other steps", so blocking free speech is detrimental to them.

em3rgent0rdr 8y ago

Interesting how the State-Socialist authoritarian countries ended up not actually being an existential threat to freedom, due to the weakness of a planned economy. But since China embraced capitalism, it's economy became very strong, and so is now a more serious threat.

07d046 8y ago

I've just started reading Silent Invasian: China's Influence in Australia, which made headlines around the world last year when its original publisher decided not to publish it out of fear of what the Chinese Communist Party and its proxies in Australia would react. That China has this sort of influence (see also all the airlines and hotels and other companies that bent over backwards to apologise for listing China and Taiwan as separate countries) overseas already is worrying. On another note, I don't like the moral equivalency that seems to be popular between China and the US. The "but America does bad things too" response. The reality of America is often ugly, but it was founded and has always preached ideals like democracy and liberty and human rights and the rule of law. America's great failings are generally when it doesn't live up to its own ideals. Meanwhile, the Chinese Communist Party holds none of those ideals, sees the rights of the individual as completely subservient to the needs of the state, and has no qualms with wide scale censorship, jailing human rights lawyers and activists, harvesting the organs of political prisoners, etc. In my opinion, one of the most unfortunate consequences of China's growing power is that it gives other authoritarian countries cover to abuse human rights. We seem to be seeing it in the Philippines with Duterte, and just last week a US citizen was arrested (and hasn't been released) in Vietnam after being involved in a protest.

philliphaydon 8y ago
When ever I see people comment on the Philippines I wonder if they have any idea just what’s going on in the Philippines. I’m still yet to meet a single Filipino who does not like duterte.
- majewsky 8y ago
  Devil's advocate: I've yet to meet a single North Korean who does not like Kim Jong-un. Popularity (both apparent and actual) and respect for human rights are frustratingly orthogonal.
cbzbc 8y ago
Remember the 80s when the Japanese were going to take over the world, and pulp novelists turned out airport thrillers in which the villain was a Japanese businessman?

dalbasal 8y ago

This is a tangent, but I noticed how this line feels like it (almost) requires no further support: "liberal democracy’s current ills have opened an.." While I'm not disagreeing, just don't recall reading a decent narration on what exactly is going on. What are liberal democracies' current ills? Did we agree on a list, when I wasn't looking?

simonh 8y ago
There are some trends in current international relations that are worrying for many people who support liberal democratic principles. The failure of the Euro, which was a landmark liberal project. The Brexit vote in Britain. American protectionism. Russian political interference and military aggression. China's renewed suppression of individual liberties and its moves to export it's totalitarian and censorious principles abroad. To be sure some of these are self-inflicted. The Euro was badly conceived and implemented. Brexit and Trump are the result of democratic votes. However they are clearly signs of a general swing away from liberal values. Liberalism and it's proponents in it's broadest sense bears much of the blame for all of this. By liberalism I do not mean socialism. I'm a lifelong Conservative voter. I believe in individual freedom and see the EU with it's freedoms of movement and trade as a cornerstone of individual liberties here in Britain and the rest of Europe. Trade free of arbitrary and capricious tariffs is another important freedom we are in danger of having curtailed. The Good Friday agreement that brought peace to Northern Ireland did so by granting Northern Irish the freedom to choose British or Irish citizenship or both and opened up the border, a triumph of increased individual liberty, and is under threat due to Brexit. Liberalism in it's broad sense cuts across the left/right political divide, at least here in the UK.
- blattimwind 8y ago
  The Euro has failed? That's news to me.
  - growlist 8y ago
    Unemployment is at high levels in several eurozone countries, and this is blamed by some on the euro, and if you consider this a fair assessment and are unemployed I suppose you might think the euro has failed for you.

baybal2 8y ago

After meeting not one, but now around ~15 CCP members/officials of different statures in the party hierarchy. I can say that indeed a lot of things that drive the current generation of CCP's "hereditary nobility" (people in late forties to ~55 now) are manifestations of their social ineptness and insecurity. Their comparison to frailing 19th century European nobility, I think, is totally appropriate. What they afraid the most is "becoming nothing special people." The world outside China scares them, as they see there is no place for people like them in the modern society that China will inevitably and invariably become as it evolves economically

nwatson 8y ago
Thank you for this insight ... could you guess or know how many of these CCP functionaries, in spite of their insecurity, pursue their duty in good faith, versus engaging in self-dealing etc.?
- seanmcdirmid 8y ago
  It is really hard to get promoted as an idealistic CCP functionary, so if anyone makes it to the somewhat upper stages, they will most definitely be in on whatever their peers are doing (meaning, they have enough dirt so that their peers don’t have to worry about them ratting them out, and they will put on great shows to please anyone higher than them so they can keep getting promoted). In the west, it is like finding an honest politician: they might exist, but they simply don’t win elections enough that you can really find them in higher offices you pay attention to.
  - baybal2 8y ago
    Sean, are you now in Shenzhen by any chance?
    - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
      Nope. Moved back from China almost 2 years ago.

Emma_Goldman 8y ago

This is a rather anemic entry in a 100-year-old genre. Westerners have been doom-mongering about the rise of China since at least the Boxer Rebellion. The FT ran a more informative and sober piece a week or two ago, on China's gambit to create a global energy network: https://www.ft.com/content/bdc31f94-68aa-11e8-b6eb-4acfcfb08c11 https://www.ft.com/content/bdc31f94-68aa-11e8-b6eb-4acfcfb08...

cbzbc 8y ago
Yes, generally with the economist ignore the editorials and read the news: https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/1991/10/-quot-the-economics-of-the-colonial-cringe-quot-about-the-economist-magazine-washington-post-1991/7415/ https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/1991/10/-quot... As you say, doom-mongering about various parts of the world is a venerable genre and one which the Economist resorts to on a fairly regular basis (at least once a year there'll be scare pieces on China, and an article on why the French economy is doomed).