7 ms·

USB Product ID Allocations for Free Software / Open Hardware

132 points by seba_dos1 8y ago

markrages 8y ago
But can I apply before my project is published under a FOSS license?
- tinus_hn 8y ago
  > Do not apply before your project is published under a FOSS license! Well, you could of course try to apply before your project is published under a FOSS license! Who knows!
  - schoen 8y ago
    That's what people do with https://www.eff.org/awards/coop/rules https://www.eff.org/awards/coop/rules (we continue to get claims regularly that ignore every single required element, warning, and instruction).
    - dspillett 8y ago
      > that ignore every single required element, warning, and instruction I suspect it isn't that they've read and ignored the instructions. More likely it is complete ignorance: that they have not even bothered to read that document properly, if at all. It is easier to throw out an attempt and hope for the best, than to make an actual effort to be compliant. After first refusal people will either give in ("it was worth a try, but I really don't care that much"), make more of an effort second time around ("the lazy way didn't work, so maybe I'll make some effort") or bitch & moan about how unfair the system is like a child who isn't allowed more cookies until he tidies his room. Very few people care to take the time to read the rules on public facilities. They even openly admit it: hence all the forum posts that start "please delete if not allowed" which basically means "I don't care if this is allowed or not, I want to post it so I'm going to whatever your rules say so fuck you".
- dspillett 8y ago
  No, as is clearly stated. (I know you are joking, but I'm giving a serious answer in case people come along and read the comments here before/without following the link)
- trumped 8y ago
  they said it five times, so a quintuple-negative makes it still a negative if you multiply them up...
ascorbic 8y ago
There's also http://pid.codes http://pid.codes
dmitrygr 8y ago
You can also just squat on one. As long as you avoid using the trademarks ("usb" and the logo) there is nothing that can be done to you even in the US. This is basically what most Chinese products do.
- sparky_ 8y ago
  What is the advantage of applying for one as a FOSS project as opposed to squatting?
  - JoshTriplett 8y ago
    Well-behaved devices won't step on allocated IDs, so you can safely associate your device ID with your corresponding driver.
  - seba_dos1 8y ago
    You will get your product name visible in lsusb that way.
  - dmitrygr 8y ago
    Not everybody wants to open source and give away for free everything they do, nor pay $5,000 to license something that is actually just a number. This is especially true for USB devices that follow the hid spec. They don't need drivers, so even if you happen to have one associated with that vendor ID and product id, the OS will not load it.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- justinjlynn 8y ago
  Yeah... please don't do this. There exist better options than polluting a shared namespace. It's just like putting your private network in IP space you don't own.
  - dmitrygr 8y ago
    Not at all. Because it does not cost you $5,000 to get an IP address.
k_sze 8y ago
I wonder if either openmoko or pid.codes actually check that the open hardware in the applications actually exist and work as advertised. Like, I could create a stub project and publish it under an FOSS/OSHW license, but nothing in it actually works yet. Wouldn't it be a waste to allocate a PID to such project?
- ajross 8y ago
  Of course it would. But the truth is that while 65000 is a small number cryptographically, it's still a lot of throwaway toy open source projects.
- ascorbic 8y ago
  I know that pid.codes checks that you have actual, published open source code before he'll allocate you one. There's no reason to have one before that point anyway: you can always use a test code. It's only once the general public will be using it that you need a real, unique code.
- ksk 8y ago
  That would only escalate the war. People would start out as an open source hardware project with minimal commits/docs and turn "evil" the moment they got assigned a code. Then they would have to account for that. War escalates again, go to step 1.
jdswain 8y ago
Does anyone know of a low cost way of getting a Product ID for a commercial product? I've been working on software for an embedded board and am using the USB port as a debug port. It works fine now as a USB serial link, but it would be nice to have our own PID, just not worth $5000 for a single product.
- TrueTom 8y ago
  http://www.ftdichip.com/Support/Knowledgebase/index.html?caniuseftdisvidformypr.htm http://www.ftdichip.com/Support/Knowledgebase/index.html?can...
- Taniwha 8y ago
  I have two of those OpenMoko USB IDs that I use for commercial products - they're open source of course
- CamperBob2 8y ago
  You can license PIDs inexpensively from MCS Electronics in the Netherlands. They bought VID 16D0 before the USB IF prohibited reselling product IDs. At this point I believe 16D0 has been revoked by the asshats at USB IF, but that's not the customer's problem. It's not as if they'll ever be able to assign VID 16D0 to anyone else.
- jdietrich 8y ago
  Many IC manufacturers provide free sub-licensed PIDs from their own VID allocation. https://www.nxp.com/support/developer-resources/software-development-tools/lpc-developer-resources-/usb-vid-pid-program:USB-VID-PID-PROGRAM https://www.nxp.com/support/developer-resources/software-dev... http://www.microchip.com/usblicensing http://www.microchip.com/usblicensing https://www.silabs.com/products/interface/request-product-id https://www.silabs.com/products/interface/request-product-id http://www.ti.com/en/download/mcu/application_for_sublicense.pdf http://www.ti.com/en/download/mcu/application_for_sublicense...
- Kliment 8y ago
  You can buy one from a dutch company that got their VID before the terrorists of the USB-IF tried to unilaterally change contract terms after the fact to prevent subrange resale: https://www.mcselec.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=92&category_id=20&option=com_phpshop&Itemid=1 https://www.mcselec.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&...
mushwisker 8y ago
I wish either (a) USB-IF would stop being evil and start assigning small PID blocks for a reasonable price, or (b) someone would sue the fuck out of USB-IF for antitrust violations.
emilfihlman 8y ago
USB IDs are idiotic and should 100% be just squatted on. There is no reason such a stupid design should be enforced by any open source organisation. If you want to have an identification for a device, standardise capabilities tags and provide some free form fields for perhaps at least manufacturer and description.
- Faaak 8y ago
  Do you even know what USB IDs are ? You can not identify an USB device without them.
  - IshKebab 8y ago
    Yes you can. On Mac you can use userspace USB drivers by default so you can use any other method to identify your device. On Windows you can use WCID to get it to automatically install WinUSB (Windows' userspace USB driver) irrespective of the product / vendor ID. On Linux I believe you just have to set up some udev rule and then you can use libusb. Once you have userspace access there's basically no downside to squatting. The only minor one is if you happen to squat on an ID that also happens to have a kernel driver. But just pick a long defunct vendor and that's pretty damn unlikely.
    - cesarb 8y ago
      As Raymond Chen would say, what if two devices did this? Suppose you have Widget A, which is squatting on ID 1234:5678, and Widget B, which is also squatting on ID 1234:5678. You plug both on the same computer. How would the driver, no matter whether kernel or userspace, know a newly plugged device with that ID is Widget A and not Widget B?
      - Kliment 8y ago
        That's an argument for coordination between squatters, not against squatting.
        8y ago
trasz 8y ago
There are also the free shared PID/VID numbers from https://github.com/obdev/v-usb/blob/master/usbdrv/USB-IDs-for-free.txt https://github.com/obdev/v-usb/blob/master/usbdrv/USB-IDs-fo.... They don’t have any licensing requirements.

132 points by seba_dos1 8y ago

markrages 8y ago

But can I apply before my project is published under a FOSS license?

tinus_hn 8y ago
> Do not apply before your project is published under a FOSS license! Well, you could of course try to apply before your project is published under a FOSS license! Who knows!
- schoen 8y ago
  That's what people do with https://www.eff.org/awards/coop/rules https://www.eff.org/awards/coop/rules (we continue to get claims regularly that ignore every single required element, warning, and instruction).
  - dspillett 8y ago
    > that ignore every single required element, warning, and instruction I suspect it isn't that they've read and ignored the instructions. More likely it is complete ignorance: that they have not even bothered to read that document properly, if at all. It is easier to throw out an attempt and hope for the best, than to make an actual effort to be compliant. After first refusal people will either give in ("it was worth a try, but I really don't care that much"), make more of an effort second time around ("the lazy way didn't work, so maybe I'll make some effort") or bitch & moan about how unfair the system is like a child who isn't allowed more cookies until he tidies his room. Very few people care to take the time to read the rules on public facilities. They even openly admit it: hence all the forum posts that start "please delete if not allowed" which basically means "I don't care if this is allowed or not, I want to post it so I'm going to whatever your rules say so fuck you".
dspillett 8y ago
No, as is clearly stated. (I know you are joking, but I'm giving a serious answer in case people come along and read the comments here before/without following the link)
trumped 8y ago
they said it five times, so a quintuple-negative makes it still a negative if you multiply them up...

ascorbic 8y ago

There's also http://pid.codes http://pid.codes

dmitrygr 8y ago

You can also just squat on one. As long as you avoid using the trademarks ("usb" and the logo) there is nothing that can be done to you even in the US. This is basically what most Chinese products do.

sparky_ 8y ago
What is the advantage of applying for one as a FOSS project as opposed to squatting?
- JoshTriplett 8y ago
  Well-behaved devices won't step on allocated IDs, so you can safely associate your device ID with your corresponding driver.
- seba_dos1 8y ago
  You will get your product name visible in lsusb that way.
- dmitrygr 8y ago
  Not everybody wants to open source and give away for free everything they do, nor pay $5,000 to license something that is actually just a number. This is especially true for USB devices that follow the hid spec. They don't need drivers, so even if you happen to have one associated with that vendor ID and product id, the OS will not load it.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
justinjlynn 8y ago
Yeah... please don't do this. There exist better options than polluting a shared namespace. It's just like putting your private network in IP space you don't own.
- dmitrygr 8y ago
  Not at all. Because it does not cost you $5,000 to get an IP address.

k_sze 8y ago

I wonder if either openmoko or pid.codes actually check that the open hardware in the applications actually exist and work as advertised. Like, I could create a stub project and publish it under an FOSS/OSHW license, but nothing in it actually works yet. Wouldn't it be a waste to allocate a PID to such project?

ajross 8y ago
Of course it would. But the truth is that while 65000 is a small number cryptographically, it's still a lot of throwaway toy open source projects.
ascorbic 8y ago
I know that pid.codes checks that you have actual, published open source code before he'll allocate you one. There's no reason to have one before that point anyway: you can always use a test code. It's only once the general public will be using it that you need a real, unique code.
ksk 8y ago
That would only escalate the war. People would start out as an open source hardware project with minimal commits/docs and turn "evil" the moment they got assigned a code. Then they would have to account for that. War escalates again, go to step 1.

jdswain 8y ago

Does anyone know of a low cost way of getting a Product ID for a commercial product? I've been working on software for an embedded board and am using the USB port as a debug port. It works fine now as a USB serial link, but it would be nice to have our own PID, just not worth $5000 for a single product.

TrueTom 8y ago
http://www.ftdichip.com/Support/Knowledgebase/index.html?caniuseftdisvidformypr.htm http://www.ftdichip.com/Support/Knowledgebase/index.html?can...
Taniwha 8y ago
I have two of those OpenMoko USB IDs that I use for commercial products - they're open source of course
CamperBob2 8y ago
You can license PIDs inexpensively from MCS Electronics in the Netherlands. They bought VID 16D0 before the USB IF prohibited reselling product IDs. At this point I believe 16D0 has been revoked by the asshats at USB IF, but that's not the customer's problem. It's not as if they'll ever be able to assign VID 16D0 to anyone else.
jdietrich 8y ago
Many IC manufacturers provide free sub-licensed PIDs from their own VID allocation. https://www.nxp.com/support/developer-resources/software-development-tools/lpc-developer-resources-/usb-vid-pid-program:USB-VID-PID-PROGRAM https://www.nxp.com/support/developer-resources/software-dev... http://www.microchip.com/usblicensing http://www.microchip.com/usblicensing https://www.silabs.com/products/interface/request-product-id https://www.silabs.com/products/interface/request-product-id http://www.ti.com/en/download/mcu/application_for_sublicense.pdf http://www.ti.com/en/download/mcu/application_for_sublicense...
Kliment 8y ago
You can buy one from a dutch company that got their VID before the terrorists of the USB-IF tried to unilaterally change contract terms after the fact to prevent subrange resale: https://www.mcselec.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=92&category_id=20&option=com_phpshop&Itemid=1 https://www.mcselec.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&...

mushwisker 8y ago

I wish either (a) USB-IF would stop being evil and start assigning small PID blocks for a reasonable price, or (b) someone would sue the fuck out of USB-IF for antitrust violations.

emilfihlman 8y ago

USB IDs are idiotic and should 100% be just squatted on. There is no reason such a stupid design should be enforced by any open source organisation. If you want to have an identification for a device, standardise capabilities tags and provide some free form fields for perhaps at least manufacturer and description.

Faaak 8y ago
Do you even know what USB IDs are ? You can not identify an USB device without them.
- IshKebab 8y ago
  Yes you can. On Mac you can use userspace USB drivers by default so you can use any other method to identify your device. On Windows you can use WCID to get it to automatically install WinUSB (Windows' userspace USB driver) irrespective of the product / vendor ID. On Linux I believe you just have to set up some udev rule and then you can use libusb. Once you have userspace access there's basically no downside to squatting. The only minor one is if you happen to squat on an ID that also happens to have a kernel driver. But just pick a long defunct vendor and that's pretty damn unlikely.
  - cesarb 8y ago
    As Raymond Chen would say, what if two devices did this? Suppose you have Widget A, which is squatting on ID 1234:5678, and Widget B, which is also squatting on ID 1234:5678. You plug both on the same computer. How would the driver, no matter whether kernel or userspace, know a newly plugged device with that ID is Widget A and not Widget B?
    - Kliment 8y ago
      That's an argument for coordination between squatters, not against squatting.
      - 8y ago

trasz 8y ago

There are also the free shared PID/VID numbers from https://github.com/obdev/v-usb/blob/master/usbdrv/USB-IDs-for-free.txt https://github.com/obdev/v-usb/blob/master/usbdrv/USB-IDs-fo.... They don’t have any licensing requirements.