12 ms·

Sweden Tries to Halt Its March to Total Cashlessness

148 points by leonagano 8y ago

falcon620 8y ago
There's been a quite generally raised awareness of the importance of civil resilience here in Sweden the past two years. The perceived threath of a Russian invasion (or perhaps more likely network-based sabotage) has been the cathalyst of this. Being a "prepper" has gone from being seen as border-line psychotic behavior to "being a responsibile citizen". As long as you don't go over-board and try to prep for more than 4-7 days lack of electricity/water/food - then you're still seen as suspicious. Small steps. There was also this campaign just a week or two ago - every household received a leaflet telling them to prepare for any incidents that stop public services: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/21/sweden-distributes-be-prepared-for-war-cyber-terror-attack-leaflet-to-every-home https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/21/sweden-distrib... This stuff used to be standard operating procedure when I grew up in the 70s/80s - all this stuff was printed in the annual phone directories that everyone receieved. After Soviet collapsed we stopped doing it though. There's also been an unusually large number of outages of networked systems in Sweden the past two years, all over the place. Things like ATC systems, banks, media/cable tv distribution systems. Perhaps the official, public explanations are true (typically some kind of "human error" or "software update problem"). I suspect there's an adversary who is not very shy.
- icebraining 8y ago
  There's also been an unusually large number of outages (...) Maybe it's part of the campaign to promote self-reliance, like a vaccine for larger scale outages.
  - coredog64 8y ago
    Physical Chaos Monkey. Maybe there is an ex-Netfix engineer in government.
    - icebraining 8y ago
      Or a ex-member of the military. This[1] episode of Omega Tau aboard a Royal Navy ship really made me realize how much they train for Shit Happening - I think they simulated a fire or man overboard every other day. We civilians should probably do more of that as well. [1] http://omegataupodcast.net/277-life-and-work-on-hms-enterprise/ http://omegataupodcast.net/277-life-and-work-on-hms-enterpri...
- lainga 8y ago
  How popular has the Norwegian series Okkupert been among Swedes? It seems war is weighing heavily on the mind of all the Scandinavian countries since about 2014 (except for Finland, of course, who have never stopped thinking of it).
  - falcon620 8y ago
    So-so. I watched it. Enjoyed parts. Mostly cringed through it. But just like the Danish/Swedish Netflix series "The Rain" in a similar genre the writing was painfully bad at times - I think this is what stopped it from being popular.
  - Svip 8y ago
    The prospect of war weighs very little in Denmark, for the record. There was quite a shock in Denmark, when Sweden announced its 'war survival guide' a few days ago. There seems to be no indication that the Danish government is going to do the same, or anything similar. The argument being that Denmark is in NATO (Sweden is not).
    - falcon620 8y ago
      The value of being a part of NATO seems at best fluid with the current US president. That means that your NATO membership might not be as valuable as you thought it was. I'd even go to say as far as saying that Denmark and Norway are being complacent in case they depend on the US for reinforcements - with Trump at the helm. On the other hand we all know that Trump will be gone by the next US election. (Besides the current context I am incredibly frustrated with Sweden's unwillingness to join NATO. And just when were gaining some momentum to join, Trump goes and does his thing.)
    - bjourne 8y ago
      Lol! I was interviewed about it by a Dutch TV team a few weeks ago and I had no idea what they were talking about! I got it in the mail last week, a little brochure called "What do to if war or crisis comes." I threw it in the trash and refused to take it seriously.
- lovich 8y ago
  Could be self inflicted like Netflix's chaos monkey. You don't know how resilient your system will be in a time of stress unless you test it out
- imartin2k 8y ago
  I actually bought a couple of huge water bottles and a battery-driven tiny radio recently, so I guess I can confirm what you are describing here. The radio after there was a false alarm of the official emergency siren, followed by news articles that recommended that the best way to learn why the emergency siren is activated, is one of the public service radio channels. I figured, better safe than sorry.
- toomanybeersies 8y ago
  Everybody, anywhere in the world, should have at least 3 days supply of food and water stored at home for in case of emergency. Ideally, you should have it in a container, along with other emergency supplies such as a first aid kit, a radio, and a flashlight. It is normal for emergency services or the military to take up to 3 days to get the essentials running again in the case of a natural disaster such as an earthquake. When I used to live in an earthquake prone city, I always had a bag with a hard hat, gloves, a flashlight, and some other emergency essentials ready to go.
  - kalleboo 8y ago
    I live somewhere that is earthquake-prone, and watched intently when a large earthquake hit a city a couple hours away last year. Food and water were supplied very quickly. But there were 3-4-hour long queues so you're better off with your own stock. In the following days, what people requested most be sent in as donations were the following "luxuries": toilet paper, diapers, and batteries to charge phones.
- gaius 8y ago
  Being a "prepper" has gone from being seen as border-line psychotic behavior to "being a responsibile citizen". My wife and I are outdoorsy types and are probably “prepped” for at least a week with no additional effort just from camping equipment and supplies...
paul7986 8y ago
Sounds good to me. I use cash a few times a year.. mostly to pay older people in my family. I recently got rid of the need to have a wallet. Just carry a few cards in a wallet phone case and use Apple Pay about 50% of the time.
- MisterTea 8y ago
  Good citizen. Now sit back while we mine all of your purchases for suspicious data in which to hang you with.
- teekert 8y ago
  Here in the Netherlanda everybody is rapidly switching to iDeal based payment request for such uses. Fintech companies like bunq were amongst the first to offer this (with traditional banks rapidly copying): I can share a link that opens in your banking app, apply finger to fingerprint reader, done. I can also generate a qr code for you to scan or share said link with a group and they can all pay me. Transfer is instant and I get a notification, in these respects it's quite like bitcoin (in the good old days). I can have up to 25 bank accounts (each a unique iBan) and couple any to any of my passes (instantly). Cash is really getting obsolete quick.
icebraining 8y ago
Seems like a reasonable proposal. And 100M Kr is about 10M €, which isn't really that much for a whole country.
OskarS 8y ago
Here's a fun fact: I'm Swedish and have lived in Sweden my entire life, and I'm not entirely sure what my currency looks like. They changed almost all the coins and notes a few years back, after I had personally pretty much totally gone cash-less. Without looking it up: I'm fairly certain the 1 kr coin is copper and looks sort-of like the half-krona coin used to. There's a new 2 kr coin, and they redesigned the 5 kr coin. At least one of them is, like, brass-looking, I think. The twenty-kronor note is (I think) blue:ish and has Astrid Lindgren on it. I know Ingmar Bergman's on one one of the other notes, either the 100 kr one or the 200 kr one. I think the 200 kr one is, like, greenish. But I couldn't be sure. I don't know any of the other people on the notes, and am at best vague on what colors they are. If you gave me a reasonably convincing fake 50 kr bank-note but with the wrong person on it, I would have no way of knowing.
- 21 8y ago
  This is why I like polymer money. I have yet to hear of any fake plastic notes out there. One documentary said that buying that special plastic film is harder than getting military explosives. I did hear about people passing paper printed fake notes instead of polymer ones, but you have to be at a whole new level of carelessness to be fooled by this one.
  - Proven 8y ago
    Apparently you don't - see, you're using fake state-issued "money" and are completely oblivious to the problem.
  - samsonradu 8y ago
    We have it in Romania too and it's great, very hard to tear and also waterproof.
    - noja 8y ago
      Traditional cotton notes are waterproof and I've never torn one (but you could swap it at a bank if you did).
scottybowl 8y ago
Cashless societies should never exist - it would be far too easy for rogue governments to turn someone's life off
- acchow 8y ago
  How would they stop blockchain transactions?
  - auganov 8y ago
    Cashlessness makes it easier to cordon off the official economy from the blockchain/grey economy. That is assuming the blockchain is made illegal. Otherwise, I guess there isn't that much of a problem.
- derefr 8y ago
  Consider that it’s entirely possible to mandate that POS systems, ending machines, etc. check the serial numbers on your bills against a blacklist. Cash is no refuge if a government wants to turn enough people’s lives off badly enough.
  - Animats 8y ago
    Which China already does. ATMs which accept currency usually read the serial number.
- amiga-workbench 8y ago
  You also have the private companies running these payment services to worry about. Paypal has a horrific track record.
- Dayshine 8y ago
  Oh come now, how do you get hold of enough cash to be immune? Keep 6 months living costs in cash in your house!? Also, if they're turning off your bank accounts, they're turning off your utilities too... And you'll miss your car insurance payments, so you can't drive either.
stealthmodeclan 8y ago
OT: I wonder why Bloomberg is Bloomberg LP instead of Bloomberg LLC.
- aphextron 8y ago
  I would assume to allow Bloomberg to maintain personal control over his namesake should he be forced out of the company. An LP reserves the right to dissolve the company in the event of a partner leaving.
  - apaprocki 8y ago
    Also, keep in mind LLCs didn't practically exist when the company was created. The Wyoming LLC-as-partnership-passthrough ruling didn't happen until 1988. Other states didn't start to pass LLC laws until 1990 onward.
- ggm 8y ago
  This is worth a top level story
Tijdreiziger 8y ago
I have personally been moving to a more cash-based lifestyle after I realized that I used my card so often that my payment history could be used to construct a reasonable map of my location history.
- mdekkers 8y ago
  location history and personality profile
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- michelledepeil 8y ago
  I too have been using cash almost exclusively lately for this reason, unless it is not possible to pay with cash in a store, which is happening more and more frequently. Other benefits include: - Paying back other people is easy; - Shops are always lacking change, I can almost always pay with exact change; - Online takeaway shops charge for using their payment provider (% of the total order price) but don't make you pay for cash payments.
  - nothrabannosir 8y ago
    > Online takeaway shops charge for using their payment provider (% of the total order price) but don't make you pay for cash payments. If I understand the ruling corretl, this has become illegal in the EU recently. JustEat.co.uk for example now charge a £0.50 fee for cash payments. I’m not sure how I feel about it tbh; I get that merchants were hiding service fees as card processing fees, but on the other hand we now have government mandated subsidising of credit cards by cash users. CC users get lots of benefits, such as, most importantly the power of chargebacks. You don’t get that with cash, but now you have to subsidise it, because the cost of those services is eventually passed on to the merchant, and thus to the customer.
    - reaperducer 8y ago
SOLAR_FIELDS 8y ago
As an expat living in Sweden, who does not have a Swedish bank account, Sweden has a few steps left to make changes if it wants to be completely cashless but still not be unfriendly to foreign visitors. Most of the friction I run into is related to the banks themselves - sometimes it's quite impossible to do business with them unless you have a Swedish bank card (or personal number). Examples of things I currently can't do without the above: 1. Refill my train/bus card online or buy train/bus tickets online 2. Use Swish, the Swedish half-answer between cash and cards. This is the bank-to-bank transfer protocol which is only supported by Swedish banks. It is quite convenient if you have it, you can enter in a 10-digit number which many storefronts display next to the register and it otherwise works very much like Apple Pay Cash (which is not supported here yet unfortunately) 3. Have a phone plan. I have to use prepaid and cannot top-up online. I have to always go buy top-up receipts from Pressbyrån 4. Buy from several various mom-and-pop shops that also only for some reason have card machines that support Swedish cards. They also always have a Swish number as mentioned above. #2 and #4 are usually the most problematic. When I go out with people from Sweden and someone covers something I inevitably end up withdrawing cash as the path of least resistance. #1 and #3 are related to a popular payment processor in Nordic countries known as DIBS, who currently likes to reject foreign cards but I suspect will eventually support them. I'm hoping Sweden's banks and other payment systems finish integrating with the rest of the world before eliminating cash entirely so as to not alienate outsiders.
- egourlao 8y ago
  Is there a reason why you don't have a Swedish bank account, even though you are living there?
  - mdekkers 8y ago
    I cannot speak for the OP, and I don't live in Sweden, but as someone freely travelling and living in many EU countries (I'm European) I can tell you that opening a bank account as an expat has become seriously hellish sometime in the the past two or three years. Transfers over certain amounts have become difficult, and more often then not, my business transactions (client invoicing) are blocked arbitrarily, pending "evidence" - 2 months ago it took me 4 weeks, and thousands of euros in legal fees to release a legitimate payment from a client to me. In the new EU, "your money" is becoming a myth. After the Cyprus Experiment, where the banks essentially took ownership of all money, they realised they could get away with it. KYC, AML, FACTA and related bullshit are seriously concerning me. Combined with the relentless and useless drive to this "cashless society" (why do we need this?) your money is not yours any more.
forapurpose 8y ago
I don't understand some private persons' interest in going 'cashless', other than it seems cool and high-tech. Cash is very easy to use, and there's not much to gain from cashlessness, except for businesses and those who want to track you. More importantly, it can't be overstated that in a world where tracking of human activities has become perhaps the greatest threat to freedom (for example, in China) and to democracy (for example, in advanced democratic countries), cash provides an amazing, simple solution to tracking of your economic activities, at least the in-person transactions. For a trivial amount of effort, you eliminate a major source of information about yourself. It's much easier than using Tor or setting up a VPN, and it's more effective. tangentially; People are struggling to develop an electronic currency that provides reliable, anonymous, universally accepted transactions using all the tools of a computer. Imagine if the new requirement was, 'now do it using a piece of paper'. Cash is an amazing technology, even if we're all very accustomed to it.
- craftyguy 8y ago
  > . Cash is very easy to use, and there's not much to gain from cashlessness Here are a handful reasons why carrying around cash sucks, off the top of my head: - If you lose your wallet/purse, you've lost your money in it (with a CC you can cancel the card and dispute charges) - You have to carry around metal change, which is awkward/annoying at best. - Transactions are a lot slower, since you and the cashier have to count/add multiple times. This is most painful when you're in a long line of folks all paying cash.
  - rootlocus 8y ago
    > - If you lose your wallet/purse, you've lost your money in it (with a CC you can cancel the card and dispute charges) If the government / bank decides to freeze your assets, you could lose (temporary or permanently) everything. And there have been precedents in my country where the government abused this power. > - You have to carry around metal change, which is awkward/annoying at best. Yeah, well, you always have the option to donate / leave the change. It's a minor inconvenience. > - Transactions are a lot slower, since you and the cashier have to count/add multiple times. This is most painful when you're in a long line of folks all paying cash. Even with contactless card payments, I didn't notice much of a difference in time spent. Perhaps on large sums, which are very rare for me, but I can count a few pieces of paper fairly quicky.
noja 8y ago
The handling fee for credit cards is crazy high (more than 1%!), I can't believe that handling cash is more expensive.
- vixen99 8y ago
  And a UK Mastercard used abroad (in the EU) attracts (nearly) 3% commission on purchases.
  - nimish 8y ago
    That's a foreign transaction fee. Good cards will not do this. The actual interchange fee in the EU is closer to 0.3%.
    - noja 8y ago
      How is the interchange fee different from the merchant fee? Can I take cards for 0.3%?
      - nimish 8y ago
        The interchange fee is what's paid between banks. Your payment processor (Stripe, Paypal, Square, WorldPay etc) essentially act as middlemen who occasionally provide extra value. Depending on your volume and their product offering you could get interchange + pricing.
  - leonagano 8y ago
    Revolut/Monzo/Starling don’t charge it
    - Symbiote 8y ago
      Also Halifax, Metro Bank, Nationwide if you prefer an older bank.
      - 8y ago
sunstone 8y ago
Oh right, let's go entirely to electronic payments. What could possibly go wrong? Who thought this was a good idea?
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
staticelf 8y ago
I am Swedish and have started to use cash as my primary way of spending money. By doing so, I've found that I am more reluctant to purchase expensive items and that it also will lower shops tracking ability. I really hate the new standard of cashless. It's so stupid and a lot of people are defending it without realizing potential consequences this can have. If a store doesn't provide an ability to pay with cash, then I am most likely not going to purchase anything from that store.
reaperducer 8y ago
The article has the banks moaning that handling cash will cost them kr100 million per year. Fees that will be passed on to account holders. I'm curious if Swedish banks passed on that kr100 million savings to their account holders when they stopped taking cash in the first place. Reminds me of when ATMs first became widespread in the U.S. in the late 70's. The banks kept saying they were the wave of the future, and would save people tons of money because tellers wouldn't be needed anymore. And yet bank fees went up anyway. So much for saving people money!
- djrogers 8y ago
  No, not $100M - 100M Kronor, which is about 1/10th of $100M.
  - reaperducer 8y ago
    Yep. You caught that as I was fixing it.
- lotsofpulp 8y ago
  How do you know that the fees didn't go up as much as they would have without the ATMs? There also seems to be sufficient competition to allow for multiple banks offering free cash withdrawals around the US and/or the world and free checking accounts, in exchange for certain account balances or direct deposit minimums. I've never paid a cent to a bank in fees, and they mail checks for free to my vendors when I ask them to, and I can schedule it, and I can instantly transfer money to whoever I want online via Zelle, or use Paypal/Venmo via ACH. Life seems better than what I saw my parents deal with.
  - mturmon 8y ago
    Yes, that’s right, the major banks are a cartel that controls prices.
  - reaperducer 8y ago
    How do you know that the fees didn't go up as much as they would have without the ATMs? I don't. I know the banks stated that fees would go down, and they didn't. Sounds like a lie to me.
djrogers 8y ago
This is obviously cultural, but the very idea of a bank that refuses to handle cash somehow feels antithetical to the very purpose of personal banking. I can't imagine a bank in the US doing that, nor can I imagine hoq fast their customers would revolt!
- lotsofpulp 8y ago
  There are quite a few online US banks that don't handle cash. Ally, Schwab are just a couple names that come to mind. They offer very competitive savings rates and perks.
  - djrogers 8y ago
    Both of those banks do in fact handle cash - through ATMs. Note in the article, one of the options banks could employ for handling cash would be ATMs, indicating that not all banks do...
    - lotsofpulp 8y ago
      I meant they handle cash in the literal sense, with their hands. You have to mail them a check or money order, but either way all of their money exists on a ledger, not in notes and coins. I guess I should say I don't know for sure, but I see no reason they would want or need to.
psergeant 8y ago
I’ve been in the UK about ten days, and spent less than £10 of the cash I withdrew on the same day, while having spent well in excess of £500 retail
- leonagano 8y ago
  I live in the UK. Sometimes I spend less than £100/cash in a month
  - falsedan 8y ago
    I forget my PIN every 8-12 months and have to wait for a letter from my bank before I can withdraw cash from an ATM
- kalleboo 8y ago
  I spent 2 weeks in the UK and used cash exactly twice. Being able to use your contactless VISA card directly with turnstiles in London public transport is a game-changer.
kickling 8y ago
The state bank is also looking into creating a digital currency (not necessarily crypto) that should not be controlled by the private banks. https://archive.li/20171221075726/https://www.ft.com/content/0e37795c-ab33-11e6-9cb3-bb8207902122 https://archive.li/20171221075726/https://www.ft.com/content...
mnm1 8y ago
I've been contemplating switching to cash because it's easier to spend less, even when accounting for cash back, air miles, etc. I think this is why banks and businesses are pushing so strongly for cash less transactions only. People simply spend more this way because they are less aware of their spending. And if people use credit and don't pay things off every month, then there's interest too on top of the extra spending. Of course this is worth spending millions lobbying for, enacting, and enforcing. People are the only ones losing out on their money and privacy while companies win.
jernfrost 8y ago
A bit similar situation in Norway. In fact I was not quite sure what our money looks like at the moment because some of our bills changed. I just had some bills as an emergency stash for a long time, that I had to check if was still valid money. We've even started paying street sellers and beggars electronically now. Because even they realize that almost nobody is carrying cash anymore.
- Bakary 8y ago
  In some Chinese cities it's common for beggars to carry a Zhifubao/Alipay or Wechat pay QR-code
edtruji 8y ago
I live in Puerto Rico, and the hurricane María, throw the electrical grid to the floor, literally. Yes suddenly 3 million US citizens can’t use electronic payment because the hurracaine take down the whole telecommunication network. The majors of the cities were given some satellite phones by FEMA. No traffic lights around the island ( still today some not working), the roads where blocked by electric pole on the floor. The store looting happen the first ~2 weeks. The complete island goes in ONLY CASH MODE, for around ~3 months. But yeah, What possibly could go wrong? I hate to use cash, I like my credit card rewards, but after María, that idea 100% cashless, u got to think about it twice.
- trumped 8y ago
  Hopefully you won't get hit bad again this year, because the season is already coming... Cash is also good for privacy purposes because businesses can't buy your purchase history when you use cash.
oldcynic 8y ago
Ireland tried cashless in the 70s with a 6 month bank strike. When cash ran out they survived by using undated cheques (often re-signed multiple times as they were passed around like notes), and when cheques ran out IOUs and local trust. https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/we-can-all-get-by-quite-well-without-banks-ireland-managed-to-survive-without-them-10382975.html https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/we-can-all-get-...
- gaius 8y ago
  Others take the example of the Irish bank strike as evidence that much of what banks do is a “socially useless activity”. Presumably the author of this piece also feels that since newspapers could be replaced by bloggers they are also socially useless ...?
  - oldcynic 8y ago
    Perhaps. I just skimmed for coverage of the events without a care for their social and political stance. The Independent itself is pretty consistently centrist in outlook.
XalvinX 8y ago
I know I'm new here but I wish people wouldn't link to bloomberg and other sites (including the NYT) that only let you read X number of "free articles" per month. I know how to get around it, but it is a bother. Anyone else feel this way? Anyways, I think the idea of cashlessness is not only scary but very impractical. What about, for instance, farmer's markets, yard sales, buying something like a newspaper or pack of gum, etc? Do people really use cards for purchases of a few cents, and do farmers and (let's just say) lemonade stands actually take charge cards? Stupid. And, needless to say to a bunch of hackers, Orwellian as fk.
- grzm 8y ago
  > "I know I'm new here but I wish people wouldn't link to bloomberg and other sites (including the NYT) that only let you read X number of "free articles" per month. I know how to get around it, but it is a bother. Anyone else feel this way?" Welcome to HN! This is a FAQ: > "Are paywalls ok?" > "It's ok to post stories from sites with paywalls that have workarounds." > "In comments, it's ok to ask how to read an article and to help other users do so. But please don't post complaints about paywalls. Those are off topic." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html
  - XalvinX 8y ago
    >Welcome to HN! Thank you. :-)

148 points by leonagano 8y ago

There's been a quite generally raised awareness of the importance of civil resilience here in Sweden the past two years. The perceived threath of a Russian invasion (or perhaps more likely network-based sabotage) has been the cathalyst of this. Being a "prepper" has gone from being seen as border-line psychotic behavior to "being a responsibile citizen". As long as you don't go over-board and try to prep for more than 4-7 days lack of electricity/water/food - then you're still seen as suspicious. Small steps. There was also this campaign just a week or two ago - every household received a leaflet telling them to prepare for any incidents that stop public services: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/21/sweden-distributes-be-prepared-for-war-cyber-terror-attack-leaflet-to-every-home https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/21/sweden-distrib... This stuff used to be standard operating procedure when I grew up in the 70s/80s - all this stuff was printed in the annual phone directories that everyone receieved. After Soviet collapsed we stopped doing it though. There's also been an unusually large number of outages of networked systems in Sweden the past two years, all over the place. Things like ATC systems, banks, media/cable tv distribution systems. Perhaps the official, public explanations are true (typically some kind of "human error" or "software update problem"). I suspect there's an adversary who is not very shy.

icebraining 8y ago
There's also been an unusually large number of outages (...) Maybe it's part of the campaign to promote self-reliance, like a vaccine for larger scale outages.
- coredog64 8y ago
  Physical Chaos Monkey. Maybe there is an ex-Netfix engineer in government.
  - icebraining 8y ago
    Or a ex-member of the military. This[1] episode of Omega Tau aboard a Royal Navy ship really made me realize how much they train for Shit Happening - I think they simulated a fire or man overboard every other day. We civilians should probably do more of that as well. [1] http://omegataupodcast.net/277-life-and-work-on-hms-enterprise/ http://omegataupodcast.net/277-life-and-work-on-hms-enterpri...
lainga 8y ago
How popular has the Norwegian series Okkupert been among Swedes? It seems war is weighing heavily on the mind of all the Scandinavian countries since about 2014 (except for Finland, of course, who have never stopped thinking of it).
- falcon620 8y ago
  So-so. I watched it. Enjoyed parts. Mostly cringed through it. But just like the Danish/Swedish Netflix series "The Rain" in a similar genre the writing was painfully bad at times - I think this is what stopped it from being popular.
- Svip 8y ago
  The prospect of war weighs very little in Denmark, for the record. There was quite a shock in Denmark, when Sweden announced its 'war survival guide' a few days ago. There seems to be no indication that the Danish government is going to do the same, or anything similar. The argument being that Denmark is in NATO (Sweden is not).
  - falcon620 8y ago
    The value of being a part of NATO seems at best fluid with the current US president. That means that your NATO membership might not be as valuable as you thought it was. I'd even go to say as far as saying that Denmark and Norway are being complacent in case they depend on the US for reinforcements - with Trump at the helm. On the other hand we all know that Trump will be gone by the next US election. (Besides the current context I am incredibly frustrated with Sweden's unwillingness to join NATO. And just when were gaining some momentum to join, Trump goes and does his thing.)
  - bjourne 8y ago
    Lol! I was interviewed about it by a Dutch TV team a few weeks ago and I had no idea what they were talking about! I got it in the mail last week, a little brochure called "What do to if war or crisis comes." I threw it in the trash and refused to take it seriously.
lovich 8y ago
Could be self inflicted like Netflix's chaos monkey. You don't know how resilient your system will be in a time of stress unless you test it out
imartin2k 8y ago
I actually bought a couple of huge water bottles and a battery-driven tiny radio recently, so I guess I can confirm what you are describing here. The radio after there was a false alarm of the official emergency siren, followed by news articles that recommended that the best way to learn why the emergency siren is activated, is one of the public service radio channels. I figured, better safe than sorry.
toomanybeersies 8y ago
Everybody, anywhere in the world, should have at least 3 days supply of food and water stored at home for in case of emergency. Ideally, you should have it in a container, along with other emergency supplies such as a first aid kit, a radio, and a flashlight. It is normal for emergency services or the military to take up to 3 days to get the essentials running again in the case of a natural disaster such as an earthquake. When I used to live in an earthquake prone city, I always had a bag with a hard hat, gloves, a flashlight, and some other emergency essentials ready to go.
- kalleboo 8y ago
  I live somewhere that is earthquake-prone, and watched intently when a large earthquake hit a city a couple hours away last year. Food and water were supplied very quickly. But there were 3-4-hour long queues so you're better off with your own stock. In the following days, what people requested most be sent in as donations were the following "luxuries": toilet paper, diapers, and batteries to charge phones.
gaius 8y ago
Being a "prepper" has gone from being seen as border-line psychotic behavior to "being a responsibile citizen". My wife and I are outdoorsy types and are probably “prepped” for at least a week with no additional effort just from camping equipment and supplies...

paul7986 8y ago

Sounds good to me. I use cash a few times a year.. mostly to pay older people in my family. I recently got rid of the need to have a wallet. Just carry a few cards in a wallet phone case and use Apple Pay about 50% of the time.

MisterTea 8y ago
Good citizen. Now sit back while we mine all of your purchases for suspicious data in which to hang you with.
teekert 8y ago
Here in the Netherlanda everybody is rapidly switching to iDeal based payment request for such uses. Fintech companies like bunq were amongst the first to offer this (with traditional banks rapidly copying): I can share a link that opens in your banking app, apply finger to fingerprint reader, done. I can also generate a qr code for you to scan or share said link with a group and they can all pay me. Transfer is instant and I get a notification, in these respects it's quite like bitcoin (in the good old days). I can have up to 25 bank accounts (each a unique iBan) and couple any to any of my passes (instantly). Cash is really getting obsolete quick.

icebraining 8y ago

Seems like a reasonable proposal. And 100M Kr is about 10M €, which isn't really that much for a whole country.

OskarS 8y ago

Here's a fun fact: I'm Swedish and have lived in Sweden my entire life, and I'm not entirely sure what my currency looks like. They changed almost all the coins and notes a few years back, after I had personally pretty much totally gone cash-less. Without looking it up: I'm fairly certain the 1 kr coin is copper and looks sort-of like the half-krona coin used to. There's a new 2 kr coin, and they redesigned the 5 kr coin. At least one of them is, like, brass-looking, I think. The twenty-kronor note is (I think) blue:ish and has Astrid Lindgren on it. I know Ingmar Bergman's on one one of the other notes, either the 100 kr one or the 200 kr one. I think the 200 kr one is, like, greenish. But I couldn't be sure. I don't know any of the other people on the notes, and am at best vague on what colors they are. If you gave me a reasonably convincing fake 50 kr bank-note but with the wrong person on it, I would have no way of knowing.

21 8y ago
This is why I like polymer money. I have yet to hear of any fake plastic notes out there. One documentary said that buying that special plastic film is harder than getting military explosives. I did hear about people passing paper printed fake notes instead of polymer ones, but you have to be at a whole new level of carelessness to be fooled by this one.
- Proven 8y ago
  Apparently you don't - see, you're using fake state-issued "money" and are completely oblivious to the problem.
- samsonradu 8y ago
  We have it in Romania too and it's great, very hard to tear and also waterproof.
  - noja 8y ago
    Traditional cotton notes are waterproof and I've never torn one (but you could swap it at a bank if you did).

scottybowl 8y ago

Cashless societies should never exist - it would be far too easy for rogue governments to turn someone's life off

acchow 8y ago
How would they stop blockchain transactions?
- auganov 8y ago
  Cashlessness makes it easier to cordon off the official economy from the blockchain/grey economy. That is assuming the blockchain is made illegal. Otherwise, I guess there isn't that much of a problem.
derefr 8y ago
Consider that it’s entirely possible to mandate that POS systems, ending machines, etc. check the serial numbers on your bills against a blacklist. Cash is no refuge if a government wants to turn enough people’s lives off badly enough.
- Animats 8y ago
  Which China already does. ATMs which accept currency usually read the serial number.
amiga-workbench 8y ago
You also have the private companies running these payment services to worry about. Paypal has a horrific track record.
Dayshine 8y ago
Oh come now, how do you get hold of enough cash to be immune? Keep 6 months living costs in cash in your house!? Also, if they're turning off your bank accounts, they're turning off your utilities too... And you'll miss your car insurance payments, so you can't drive either.

stealthmodeclan 8y ago

OT: I wonder why Bloomberg is Bloomberg LP instead of Bloomberg LLC.

aphextron 8y ago
I would assume to allow Bloomberg to maintain personal control over his namesake should he be forced out of the company. An LP reserves the right to dissolve the company in the event of a partner leaving.
- apaprocki 8y ago
  Also, keep in mind LLCs didn't practically exist when the company was created. The Wyoming LLC-as-partnership-passthrough ruling didn't happen until 1988. Other states didn't start to pass LLC laws until 1990 onward.
ggm 8y ago
This is worth a top level story

Tijdreiziger 8y ago

I have personally been moving to a more cash-based lifestyle after I realized that I used my card so often that my payment history could be used to construct a reasonable map of my location history.

mdekkers 8y ago
location history and personality profile
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
michelledepeil 8y ago
I too have been using cash almost exclusively lately for this reason, unless it is not possible to pay with cash in a store, which is happening more and more frequently. Other benefits include: - Paying back other people is easy; - Shops are always lacking change, I can almost always pay with exact change; - Online takeaway shops charge for using their payment provider (% of the total order price) but don't make you pay for cash payments.
- nothrabannosir 8y ago
  > Online takeaway shops charge for using their payment provider (% of the total order price) but don't make you pay for cash payments. If I understand the ruling corretl, this has become illegal in the EU recently. JustEat.co.uk for example now charge a £0.50 fee for cash payments. I’m not sure how I feel about it tbh; I get that merchants were hiding service fees as card processing fees, but on the other hand we now have government mandated subsidising of credit cards by cash users. CC users get lots of benefits, such as, most importantly the power of chargebacks. You don’t get that with cash, but now you have to subsidise it, because the cost of those services is eventually passed on to the merchant, and thus to the customer.
  - reaperducer 8y ago

SOLAR_FIELDS 8y ago

As an expat living in Sweden, who does not have a Swedish bank account, Sweden has a few steps left to make changes if it wants to be completely cashless but still not be unfriendly to foreign visitors. Most of the friction I run into is related to the banks themselves - sometimes it's quite impossible to do business with them unless you have a Swedish bank card (or personal number). Examples of things I currently can't do without the above: 1. Refill my train/bus card online or buy train/bus tickets online 2. Use Swish, the Swedish half-answer between cash and cards. This is the bank-to-bank transfer protocol which is only supported by Swedish banks. It is quite convenient if you have it, you can enter in a 10-digit number which many storefronts display next to the register and it otherwise works very much like Apple Pay Cash (which is not supported here yet unfortunately) 3. Have a phone plan. I have to use prepaid and cannot top-up online. I have to always go buy top-up receipts from Pressbyrån 4. Buy from several various mom-and-pop shops that also only for some reason have card machines that support Swedish cards. They also always have a Swish number as mentioned above. #2 and #4 are usually the most problematic. When I go out with people from Sweden and someone covers something I inevitably end up withdrawing cash as the path of least resistance. #1 and #3 are related to a popular payment processor in Nordic countries known as DIBS, who currently likes to reject foreign cards but I suspect will eventually support them. I'm hoping Sweden's banks and other payment systems finish integrating with the rest of the world before eliminating cash entirely so as to not alienate outsiders.

egourlao 8y ago
Is there a reason why you don't have a Swedish bank account, even though you are living there?
- mdekkers 8y ago
  I cannot speak for the OP, and I don't live in Sweden, but as someone freely travelling and living in many EU countries (I'm European) I can tell you that opening a bank account as an expat has become seriously hellish sometime in the the past two or three years. Transfers over certain amounts have become difficult, and more often then not, my business transactions (client invoicing) are blocked arbitrarily, pending "evidence" - 2 months ago it took me 4 weeks, and thousands of euros in legal fees to release a legitimate payment from a client to me. In the new EU, "your money" is becoming a myth. After the Cyprus Experiment, where the banks essentially took ownership of all money, they realised they could get away with it. KYC, AML, FACTA and related bullshit are seriously concerning me. Combined with the relentless and useless drive to this "cashless society" (why do we need this?) your money is not yours any more.

forapurpose 8y ago

I don't understand some private persons' interest in going 'cashless', other than it seems cool and high-tech. Cash is very easy to use, and there's not much to gain from cashlessness, except for businesses and those who want to track you. More importantly, it can't be overstated that in a world where tracking of human activities has become perhaps the greatest threat to freedom (for example, in China) and to democracy (for example, in advanced democratic countries), cash provides an amazing, simple solution to tracking of your economic activities, at least the in-person transactions. For a trivial amount of effort, you eliminate a major source of information about yourself. It's much easier than using Tor or setting up a VPN, and it's more effective. tangentially; People are struggling to develop an electronic currency that provides reliable, anonymous, universally accepted transactions using all the tools of a computer. Imagine if the new requirement was, 'now do it using a piece of paper'. Cash is an amazing technology, even if we're all very accustomed to it.

craftyguy 8y ago
> . Cash is very easy to use, and there's not much to gain from cashlessness Here are a handful reasons why carrying around cash sucks, off the top of my head: - If you lose your wallet/purse, you've lost your money in it (with a CC you can cancel the card and dispute charges) - You have to carry around metal change, which is awkward/annoying at best. - Transactions are a lot slower, since you and the cashier have to count/add multiple times. This is most painful when you're in a long line of folks all paying cash.
- rootlocus 8y ago
  > - If you lose your wallet/purse, you've lost your money in it (with a CC you can cancel the card and dispute charges) If the government / bank decides to freeze your assets, you could lose (temporary or permanently) everything. And there have been precedents in my country where the government abused this power. > - You have to carry around metal change, which is awkward/annoying at best. Yeah, well, you always have the option to donate / leave the change. It's a minor inconvenience. > - Transactions are a lot slower, since you and the cashier have to count/add multiple times. This is most painful when you're in a long line of folks all paying cash. Even with contactless card payments, I didn't notice much of a difference in time spent. Perhaps on large sums, which are very rare for me, but I can count a few pieces of paper fairly quicky.

noja 8y ago

The handling fee for credit cards is crazy high (more than 1%!), I can't believe that handling cash is more expensive.

vixen99 8y ago
And a UK Mastercard used abroad (in the EU) attracts (nearly) 3% commission on purchases.
- nimish 8y ago
  That's a foreign transaction fee. Good cards will not do this. The actual interchange fee in the EU is closer to 0.3%.
  - noja 8y ago
    How is the interchange fee different from the merchant fee? Can I take cards for 0.3%?
    - nimish 8y ago
      The interchange fee is what's paid between banks. Your payment processor (Stripe, Paypal, Square, WorldPay etc) essentially act as middlemen who occasionally provide extra value. Depending on your volume and their product offering you could get interchange + pricing.
- leonagano 8y ago
  Revolut/Monzo/Starling don’t charge it
  - Symbiote 8y ago
    Also Halifax, Metro Bank, Nationwide if you prefer an older bank.
    - 8y ago

sunstone 8y ago

Oh right, let's go entirely to electronic payments. What could possibly go wrong? Who thought this was a good idea?

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

staticelf 8y ago

I am Swedish and have started to use cash as my primary way of spending money. By doing so, I've found that I am more reluctant to purchase expensive items and that it also will lower shops tracking ability. I really hate the new standard of cashless. It's so stupid and a lot of people are defending it without realizing potential consequences this can have. If a store doesn't provide an ability to pay with cash, then I am most likely not going to purchase anything from that store.

reaperducer 8y ago

The article has the banks moaning that handling cash will cost them kr100 million per year. Fees that will be passed on to account holders. I'm curious if Swedish banks passed on that kr100 million savings to their account holders when they stopped taking cash in the first place. Reminds me of when ATMs first became widespread in the U.S. in the late 70's. The banks kept saying they were the wave of the future, and would save people tons of money because tellers wouldn't be needed anymore. And yet bank fees went up anyway. So much for saving people money!

djrogers 8y ago
No, not $100M - 100M Kronor, which is about 1/10th of $100M.
- reaperducer 8y ago
  Yep. You caught that as I was fixing it.
lotsofpulp 8y ago
How do you know that the fees didn't go up as much as they would have without the ATMs? There also seems to be sufficient competition to allow for multiple banks offering free cash withdrawals around the US and/or the world and free checking accounts, in exchange for certain account balances or direct deposit minimums. I've never paid a cent to a bank in fees, and they mail checks for free to my vendors when I ask them to, and I can schedule it, and I can instantly transfer money to whoever I want online via Zelle, or use Paypal/Venmo via ACH. Life seems better than what I saw my parents deal with.
- mturmon 8y ago
  Yes, that’s right, the major banks are a cartel that controls prices.
- reaperducer 8y ago
  How do you know that the fees didn't go up as much as they would have without the ATMs? I don't. I know the banks stated that fees would go down, and they didn't. Sounds like a lie to me.

djrogers 8y ago

This is obviously cultural, but the very idea of a bank that refuses to handle cash somehow feels antithetical to the very purpose of personal banking. I can't imagine a bank in the US doing that, nor can I imagine hoq fast their customers would revolt!

lotsofpulp 8y ago
There are quite a few online US banks that don't handle cash. Ally, Schwab are just a couple names that come to mind. They offer very competitive savings rates and perks.
- djrogers 8y ago
  Both of those banks do in fact handle cash - through ATMs. Note in the article, one of the options banks could employ for handling cash would be ATMs, indicating that not all banks do...
  - lotsofpulp 8y ago
    I meant they handle cash in the literal sense, with their hands. You have to mail them a check or money order, but either way all of their money exists on a ledger, not in notes and coins. I guess I should say I don't know for sure, but I see no reason they would want or need to.

psergeant 8y ago

I’ve been in the UK about ten days, and spent less than £10 of the cash I withdrew on the same day, while having spent well in excess of £500 retail

leonagano 8y ago
I live in the UK. Sometimes I spend less than £100/cash in a month
- falsedan 8y ago
  I forget my PIN every 8-12 months and have to wait for a letter from my bank before I can withdraw cash from an ATM
kalleboo 8y ago
I spent 2 weeks in the UK and used cash exactly twice. Being able to use your contactless VISA card directly with turnstiles in London public transport is a game-changer.

kickling 8y ago

The state bank is also looking into creating a digital currency (not necessarily crypto) that should not be controlled by the private banks. https://archive.li/20171221075726/https://www.ft.com/content/0e37795c-ab33-11e6-9cb3-bb8207902122 https://archive.li/20171221075726/https://www.ft.com/content...

mnm1 8y ago

I've been contemplating switching to cash because it's easier to spend less, even when accounting for cash back, air miles, etc. I think this is why banks and businesses are pushing so strongly for cash less transactions only. People simply spend more this way because they are less aware of their spending. And if people use credit and don't pay things off every month, then there's interest too on top of the extra spending. Of course this is worth spending millions lobbying for, enacting, and enforcing. People are the only ones losing out on their money and privacy while companies win.

jernfrost 8y ago

A bit similar situation in Norway. In fact I was not quite sure what our money looks like at the moment because some of our bills changed. I just had some bills as an emergency stash for a long time, that I had to check if was still valid money. We've even started paying street sellers and beggars electronically now. Because even they realize that almost nobody is carrying cash anymore.

Bakary 8y ago
In some Chinese cities it's common for beggars to carry a Zhifubao/Alipay or Wechat pay QR-code

edtruji 8y ago

I live in Puerto Rico, and the hurricane María, throw the electrical grid to the floor, literally. Yes suddenly 3 million US citizens can’t use electronic payment because the hurracaine take down the whole telecommunication network. The majors of the cities were given some satellite phones by FEMA. No traffic lights around the island ( still today some not working), the roads where blocked by electric pole on the floor. The store looting happen the first ~2 weeks. The complete island goes in ONLY CASH MODE, for around ~3 months. But yeah, What possibly could go wrong? I hate to use cash, I like my credit card rewards, but after María, that idea 100% cashless, u got to think about it twice.

trumped 8y ago
Hopefully you won't get hit bad again this year, because the season is already coming... Cash is also good for privacy purposes because businesses can't buy your purchase history when you use cash.

oldcynic 8y ago

Ireland tried cashless in the 70s with a 6 month bank strike. When cash ran out they survived by using undated cheques (often re-signed multiple times as they were passed around like notes), and when cheques ran out IOUs and local trust. https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/we-can-all-get-by-quite-well-without-banks-ireland-managed-to-survive-without-them-10382975.html https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/we-can-all-get-...

gaius 8y ago
Others take the example of the Irish bank strike as evidence that much of what banks do is a “socially useless activity”. Presumably the author of this piece also feels that since newspapers could be replaced by bloggers they are also socially useless ...?
- oldcynic 8y ago
  Perhaps. I just skimmed for coverage of the events without a care for their social and political stance. The Independent itself is pretty consistently centrist in outlook.

XalvinX 8y ago

I know I'm new here but I wish people wouldn't link to bloomberg and other sites (including the NYT) that only let you read X number of "free articles" per month. I know how to get around it, but it is a bother. Anyone else feel this way? Anyways, I think the idea of cashlessness is not only scary but very impractical. What about, for instance, farmer's markets, yard sales, buying something like a newspaper or pack of gum, etc? Do people really use cards for purchases of a few cents, and do farmers and (let's just say) lemonade stands actually take charge cards? Stupid. And, needless to say to a bunch of hackers, Orwellian as fk.

grzm 8y ago
> "I know I'm new here but I wish people wouldn't link to bloomberg and other sites (including the NYT) that only let you read X number of "free articles" per month. I know how to get around it, but it is a bother. Anyone else feel this way?" Welcome to HN! This is a FAQ: > "Are paywalls ok?" > "It's ok to post stories from sites with paywalls that have workarounds." > "In comments, it's ok to ask how to read an article and to help other users do so. But please don't post complaints about paywalls. Those are off topic." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html
- XalvinX 8y ago
  >Welcome to HN! Thank you. :-)