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I lived in Japan for two years and I want to point out something that you've said that struck me. "I don't want my actions to reflect badly on other foreigners

by Timpy 8y ago

I lived in Japan for two years and I want to point out something that you've said that struck me. "I don't want my actions to reflect badly on other foreigners in Japan." This wouldn't have made any sense to me before. I found that in Japanese culture, the identity of the self is wrapped up in the role of society. You're too worried about your role, your 建て前(tatemae). This is different from the West, where individuality is celebrated. I had to move back home and spend a lot of time with my family to be reminded that I am much more than a gaijin in Japanese society. I've been out of Japan for three years and I still think about it every day. You may already be cognizant of this, but I wasn't, I didn't realize how it was affecting me. Do you have family or friends back home that you can talk to about your troubles? This isn't financial or business advice, this is personal advice. I know you're protecting your 建て前 but you should consider that it's just a construct, it doesn't define you, and it's not worth killing yourself over.

dm319 8y ago
I read that, and having never been or lived in Japan, I thought it was an odd statement to make, though I'm half-chinese, so I have some idea how important 'face' and 'shame' is in some societies. Hoping that OP reads this and your last sentence.
olingern 8y ago
I’ve only been in Tokyo for three months, and have already caught myself in this self-awareness paradox: you have to be extremely self aware that you don’t offend others around you, yet your own needs / wants come later. I recognize that it could potentially have negative effects on one overtime, but I see this as a fair trade off for the abundant safety and civility in Japan.
- exelius 8y ago
  Welcome to being a minority. It can be just as bad to be one in the US without proper support. Life is hard for everyone.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- shankr 8y ago
  This is how I feel living as a foreigner in Germany. It's not Japan specific. Most of the migrants share similar feelings, especially those who come from developing countries.
- timr 8y ago
  As the other commenters note, this is part of what it means to be a minority; internalizing this is one of the personal benefits of extended travel. That said, a lot of people go through this when they're new to Japan. People are so unusually polite/friendly that it makes you self-conscious of your own habits. Eventually you become more familiar with what you're seeing, and you're able to relax and be yourself. I think it took me about six months to stop worrying about offending people -- perhaps not coincidentally, this is when it became easier to make Japanese friends. (Also, it's essential in order to learn the language. You have to be willing to barge ahead with communication, regardless of politeness. This is still a challenge for me.)
  - exelius 8y ago
    I feel that it can often help that foreigners (especially Americans) have a reputation for rudeness that has become accepted as “cultural difference”, such that people are not as offended when a gaijin does something that would be considered offensive coming from a Japanese person.
tjpnz 8y ago
I've been here for three years and gave up on the deep self introspection not long after arriving. If it helps you, remember that you're not Japanese and never will be, nor will you ever be held to the same standards (although they're not particularly high - some of the "Japanese manners" I've witnessed here have been downright abhorrent). I've seen a few founders with that mindset who have done quite well for themselves here.
l5870uoo9y 8y ago
> Honne and tatemae are Japanese words that describe the contrast between a person's true feelings and desires (本音 hon'ne, "true sound") and the behavior and opinions one displays in public (建前 tatemae, "built in front", "façade").[1] I have always felt uncomfortable with the concept of "inside face and outside face". It comes off as disingenuous and dishonest. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honne_and_tatemae https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honne_and_tatemae
- ulisesrmzroche 8y ago
  We all do it, it’s just the Japanese are more poetic about it. Read Marx on social masks.
- YeGoblynQueenne 8y ago
  In the UK were I live, every time I get service at a shop the shopsperson smiles at me. I am pretty sure that's not because I am such a smile-inducing person. Rather the position requires it. Is that disingenuous and dishonest, or simply a social convention that people adhere too without overthinking it?
- Timpy 8y ago
  We do it in the West as well, it's just a formalized structure in Japan (and possibly other East Asian countries, but I can only speak from experience with Japan). "Hey it was really nice seeing you! We should totally catch up some time." ~American Tatemae
- sdrothrock 8y ago
  > I have always felt uncomfortable with the concept of "inside face and outside face". It comes off as disingenuous and dishonest. Or is the unsubtle expression of the concept uncomfortable? Americans do the same thing; you can see this in the casual talk Americans also have with cashiers or wait staff. Just because you're friendly and chatting doesn't mean you actually want to be friends and go out and do something together. The Culture Map by Erin Meyer expresses this idea as a spectrum from a peach to a coconut: on the one end, you get a soft exterior with a hard interior; on the other, a hard interior with a soft exterior. The point though, is that everyone does this -- just in a different way. I've known some Japanese people who've gone to the US, been confronted with the super friendly casual American attitude, then been horribly offended when it turned out that that friendliness wasn't "real." Part of this is the stereotype that Americans are "honest and direct," and part of this is that Americans tend toward the peach end of the spectrum, while Japanese people tend toward the coconut end.

by Timpy 8y ago

dm319 8y ago

I read that, and having never been or lived in Japan, I thought it was an odd statement to make, though I'm half-chinese, so I have some idea how important 'face' and 'shame' is in some societies. Hoping that OP reads this and your last sentence.

olingern 8y ago

I’ve only been in Tokyo for three months, and have already caught myself in this self-awareness paradox: you have to be extremely self aware that you don’t offend others around you, yet your own needs / wants come later. I recognize that it could potentially have negative effects on one overtime, but I see this as a fair trade off for the abundant safety and civility in Japan.

exelius 8y ago
Welcome to being a minority. It can be just as bad to be one in the US without proper support. Life is hard for everyone.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
shankr 8y ago
This is how I feel living as a foreigner in Germany. It's not Japan specific. Most of the migrants share similar feelings, especially those who come from developing countries.
timr 8y ago
As the other commenters note, this is part of what it means to be a minority; internalizing this is one of the personal benefits of extended travel. That said, a lot of people go through this when they're new to Japan. People are so unusually polite/friendly that it makes you self-conscious of your own habits. Eventually you become more familiar with what you're seeing, and you're able to relax and be yourself. I think it took me about six months to stop worrying about offending people -- perhaps not coincidentally, this is when it became easier to make Japanese friends. (Also, it's essential in order to learn the language. You have to be willing to barge ahead with communication, regardless of politeness. This is still a challenge for me.)
- exelius 8y ago
  I feel that it can often help that foreigners (especially Americans) have a reputation for rudeness that has become accepted as “cultural difference”, such that people are not as offended when a gaijin does something that would be considered offensive coming from a Japanese person.

tjpnz 8y ago

I've been here for three years and gave up on the deep self introspection not long after arriving. If it helps you, remember that you're not Japanese and never will be, nor will you ever be held to the same standards (although they're not particularly high - some of the "Japanese manners" I've witnessed here have been downright abhorrent). I've seen a few founders with that mindset who have done quite well for themselves here.

l5870uoo9y 8y ago

> Honne and tatemae are Japanese words that describe the contrast between a person's true feelings and desires (本音 hon'ne, "true sound") and the behavior and opinions one displays in public (建前 tatemae, "built in front", "façade").[1] I have always felt uncomfortable with the concept of "inside face and outside face". It comes off as disingenuous and dishonest. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honne_and_tatemae https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honne_and_tatemae

ulisesrmzroche 8y ago
We all do it, it’s just the Japanese are more poetic about it. Read Marx on social masks.
YeGoblynQueenne 8y ago
In the UK were I live, every time I get service at a shop the shopsperson smiles at me. I am pretty sure that's not because I am such a smile-inducing person. Rather the position requires it. Is that disingenuous and dishonest, or simply a social convention that people adhere too without overthinking it?
Timpy 8y ago
We do it in the West as well, it's just a formalized structure in Japan (and possibly other East Asian countries, but I can only speak from experience with Japan). "Hey it was really nice seeing you! We should totally catch up some time." ~American Tatemae
sdrothrock 8y ago
> I have always felt uncomfortable with the concept of "inside face and outside face". It comes off as disingenuous and dishonest. Or is the unsubtle expression of the concept uncomfortable? Americans do the same thing; you can see this in the casual talk Americans also have with cashiers or wait staff. Just because you're friendly and chatting doesn't mean you actually want to be friends and go out and do something together. The Culture Map by Erin Meyer expresses this idea as a spectrum from a peach to a coconut: on the one end, you get a soft exterior with a hard interior; on the other, a hard interior with a soft exterior. The point though, is that everyone does this -- just in a different way. I've known some Japanese people who've gone to the US, been confronted with the super friendly casual American attitude, then been horribly offended when it turned out that that friendliness wasn't "real." Part of this is the stereotype that Americans are "honest and direct," and part of this is that Americans tend toward the peach end of the spectrum, while Japanese people tend toward the coconut end.