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Yep, I really dont understand why there are Microsoft fans. Like I understand if you bought an Xbox, but I dont understand if you are a programmer. Microsoft

Yep, I really dont understand why there are Microsoft fans. Like I understand if you bought an Xbox, but I dont understand if you are a programmer. Microsoft has always been a headache. Recently its been a tiny bit better, but they still are a for-profit company that needs to continue to make a profit. This was to make Microsoft money, nothing to 'help programmers'.

evfanknitram 8y ago
Because their developer tools are pretty good and finding jobs as a .NET developer is pretty easy?
- jacquesm 8y ago
  That doesn't make them an ethical company. Oracle makes a pretty good database. Google makes a good search engine. All of those companies have serious ethical issues and I would not want any of them as the steward of the largest body of open source code on the planet. A federated or independent solution is the only way to go for infrastructure like this.
  - evfanknitram 8y ago
    I think you replied to the wrong thread? I replied to a poster who didn't understand why some people were fans of Microsoft.
- pas 8y ago
  It's pretty easy for non .NET jobs too. Their developer tools are pretty good for their own platform (but JetBrains actually makes great cross platform tools, some of them are proper free and open source, VSCode is playing catch up). Their C++ stdlib implementation was sucking balls for decades. Their (the dev tools') scriptability was horrible. PowerShell is nice, but it came too late, and it was too server focused. C# is okay, MS has great teams and people, but they are still very much run by the bean counters.
  - karrotwaltz 8y ago
    MSVC's stdlib is still a headache, just see the /std flag[1] which only appeared in msvc2017: you can either have C++14 with some C++17 features, or C++ "latest" which means 17 and missing features. EDIT: just noticed the article says it was also added to 2013, but my 2015 doesn't support it so idk. I can conceive PowerShell being good as a scripting language, but as a day to day terminal? That would my hell. And the fact that they are forcing so much on it in win10 doesn't help. They do produce some great things sometimes, I agree, it just doesn't average out as positive IMO. [1] https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/mt490614.aspx https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/mt490614.aspx
    - 72deluxe 8y ago
      Perhaps it should be renamed to Power Hell?
      - evfanknitram 8y ago
        I really enjoy PowerShell :)
    - Rusky 8y ago
      Try the newest version of those docs: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/cpp/build/reference/std-specify-language-standard-version https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/cpp/build/reference/std-spe...
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
matwood 8y ago
> Yep, I really dont understand why there are Microsoft fans. I wouldn't consider myself a fan, but their developer tools were (are?) some of the best out there.
retrogradeorbit 8y ago
s/Microsoft/Apple/ s/Xbox/iPad/ I dislike Microsoft a lot. But Apple, just as much. People will take a dump on Microsoft while in the same breath fawn over Apple for identical behaviour. They're all as bad as each other. Yep. Google included.
ksec 8y ago
>Yep, I really dont understand why there are Microsoft fans. Not a Fan, but judging from their recent work, I am giving them the benefits of doubt.
mudetroit 8y ago
> Microsoft has always been a headache. Recently its been a tiny bit better, but they still are a for-profit company that needs to continue to make a profit. Just want to point out that Github was also a "for-profit" company.
- 0xFFC 8y ago
  Exactly. It seems people around here are brainwashed. They are incapable of thinking objectively. You are so naive if you think Apple or Google or Facebook are not for profit! Look at how much data Google has on every single one of us. MSFT is going through a cultural change right now. It was the case for Google, to make money the had to be an advocate of open source. They didn't do that because they are good-hearted or anything else. It is just like geopolitics. Hit your opponent from the weakest point. And Microsoft weak point was open source at that time. But the point is neither MSFT, Apple, Google or Facebook does not care about developers or customers. They want to make money. This is nature of corporations. Instead of nagging and being short-sighted we should embrace open source collaboration by MSFT and should hit them when they don't respect customers.
  - pizza234 8y ago
    The expression "for profit" is indeed inappropriate. However, with the understanding of what the poster meant, it does make sense. We're talking about the company whose racket produces 10$ avg for each Android phone sold. I'm talking especially about those FAT patents, which are against the spirit of patenting (independently of being in favour or against patents). I understand that big companies are big and internally conflicting, however, I see a radical conflict of interest between their newfounded open source responsibility and their ruthless business attitude.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
  - bitmapbrother 8y ago
    >Look at how much data Google has on every single one of us. What about the data Microsoft has on you? Their Windows 10 OS is basically a data funnel right to their servers. They operate a tracking based search engine that also builds profiles on people. And they have data centers in China that are run by Chinese state run companies.
mandeepj 8y ago
> This was to make Microsoft money, nothing to 'help programmers'. This is not mutually exclusive. You need money to keep lights and servers ON
- squarefoot 8y ago
  As with every other big corporation, including Apple, Google etc. the problem isn't making money, which is perfectly legit and fine, the problem is the "western" economy system which requires, or even encourages, any rogue behavior aimed at maximizing profits at any cost. A company expecting returns for its investment is a thing, but one who buys startups only to destroy them to stop the development of competing products, or engage in legal battles to eliminate competition, is a totally different thing. Most of us criticize the latter, not the former. Unfortunately there's no legal way to prevent a corporation to become a creature turning anything including its integrity into profits, because being an ass in this context brings money and money buys favorable laws.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - fjsolwmv 8y ago
    What does "Western" have to do with anything of this? Should we be "Eastern" like Chinese sweatshops that choke the air with smog? "Middle Eastern" like Qatari slaveowners?
    - oaiey 8y ago
      Let us call it unrestricted capitalism vs. some of the European models where eg the unions/workers have by law one third of the seats in the board.
avip 8y ago
I don't know what the term "Microsoft Fan" means, but count me a proud C#, VSCode, Visual Studio, and even VBScript fan.
- oaiey 8y ago
  You lost me with VBScript. But before I am with you:)
PaulHoule 8y ago
RHAT is about making money too. They do a good job of it. Unlike Microsoft, however, they can't seem to make GUIs where the font metrics are right (eg. can you read the text properly or does the text overlap or end up being too big or too small for the space?) or scrollbars. Linux is a winner for server apps but on the desktop it seems to get worse over time, not better.
- magduf 8y ago
  >Linux is a winner for server apps but on the desktop it seems to get worse over time, not better. No, not really. The problem is too many people (like you maybe) associate "Linux desktop" with "Gnome (3)". That's false; there's a bunch of different DEs for Linux. Just look at Xfce; it isn't getting worse. KDE seems to be getting no worse too.
  - 72deluxe 8y ago
    I do not associate it with Gnome3 but I have to ask (as I am not longer a desktop Linux user), do they still rewrite every system utility every couple of releases? Back when Fedora Core was a thing, they rewrote the GUI utilities every couple of releases, without actually improving them from what I could tell. And despite installing a binary distribution, they insisted on writing these in Python with bindings to the in-fashion GUI library (typically GTK). This meant the utilities were dog slow and generally very poor. Why not write a compiled binary? Didn't make sense to me. Do they still do that?
    - magduf 8y ago
      I don't know, because I never used Gnome much, and have avoided Gnome3 like the plague. Fedora is very much a Gnome-centric distro, so of course it's going to be like what you say. At home, I use KDE, so of course they're not going to have system utilities binding to GTK. KDE is Qt-centric, so most stuff there is most likely in Qt-flavored C++. Xfce is GTK, but it's known to be fast (I use it at work and it's quick), so I seriously doubt it has system utilities in Python. Honestly, I think all your complaints are really about Gnome3.
wyck 8y ago
Maybe because they always put developers fist, this acquisition is a perfect fir for the brand and legacy. You comment makes no sens, "I don't understand if you are a programmer', no offense but what rock do you live under?
privacypoller 8y ago
As a developer Microsoft has treated my far better than any other corporation pushing an agenda. Amazon seems kind of apathetic towards any one developer or group, Google and Apple can be down-right hostile in their policies or support. Microsoft has by far hosted the most events that I have access to, ranging from global developer conferences to user-group meetings.Their tooling and developer support has always been forefront in their strategy as well. So it's a little disingenuous to say only technology consumers should have positive feelings for Microsoft. Plus, making money & helping programmers are not mutually exclusive; Coupled with their business strategies (good and bad) this has always been MS's strategy to grow and profit from their markets.
- foobarbazetc 8y ago
  How did they treat Windows Phone developers? How did they treat Nokia employees? Mhmmm.
  - wvenable 8y ago
    I'm pretty sure that wasn't the plan.
  - Const-me 8y ago
    > How did they treat Windows Phone developers? I was one of them, and Microsoft treated me very well. Windows Phone was an amazing platform. I’ve also developed for iOS a lot. Visual studio + expression blend was way ahead of apple’s xCode. Every single piece was much better: language, libraries, compiler, debugger, emulator, UI designer. The platform is now discontinued so I no longer develop for WP. Meanwhile, most of the skills I’ve obtained working on WP7-8 apps apply to other XAML-based platforms, i.e. WPF, WinRT, and UWP. Fortunately for me, Windows is not going from desktops any time soon.
- erik_landerholm 8y ago
  I appreciate that Aws is apathetic a bit. The other way to put it would be unintereste or removed or unbiased. They aren’t that helpful, fine. That’s what we get paid the big bucks for. I’ve worjed in the Msft ecosystem...never again, no thanks.
madeofpalk 8y ago
> but they still are a for-profit company that needs to continue to make a profit. This was to make Microsoft money, nothing to 'help programmers'. What a strange criticism. Of course Microsoft is a for-profit company and they're doing this to make more profit - no one is of the delusion of otherwise. They didn't spend $8b out of the goodness of their heart. However, one way you make money is to do and make things people like. Here's hoping Microsoft will recognise the value Github can provide and they do right by it. I'm cautiously optimistic.
- Delmania 8y ago
  I think many people forget that the word free in free software means free as in free speech, and not free as in free beer. There's no issue with a for profit company selling free software so long as they adhere to the license. It's not quite the case here, but I think too many developers forget that making money is why people start business and why people work.
bernardino 8y ago
> Yep, I really dont understand why there are Microsoft fans. I definitely agree. Anything Microsoft-related, or even Google-related, is a no from me. Just from a product standpoint, most of there products inherently aren’t that great. And you get that feeling when using their products, a feeling of “oh, this must be a Microsoft product because it feels very corporate.” Plus, there approach to design is subpar — it’s like there’s people out there that actually like Google’s Material Design? > Like I understand if you bought an Xbox I have an Xbox, and I just noticed advertisements on the dashboard that are non-gaming related. I also think I saw this when using a friend’s Windows-computer, they have advertisements within their operating system. It’s just bad.
- maemilius 8y ago
  > it’s like there’s people out there that actually like Google’s Material Design? I like Material Design...
dangoor 8y ago
TypeScript and Visual Studio Code are both really nicely done open source projects. There is a fairly significant group of .NET developers out there, and that's largely open source today. Sure, Microsoft is ultimately out to make money, but they're doing a fair bit to "help programmers" and only making money from those efforts indirectly.
suaveybloke 8y ago
What's wrong with being 'a for-profit company that needs to continue to make a profit'? Should they run their business at a loss?
markbnj 8y ago
Not "always." I started working with Microsoft dev tools in the late 80's and early 90's after Borland's sun began to set (in no small part because MS poached a lot of their best people). There was a time when MS was the developer's best friend, and tools like the early versions of MSDN gave unprecedented access to information that previously had been very hard to get (raise your hand if you ever paid over $100USD for a manual from IBM). Of course back then the FOSS community did not exist, and the alternatives were old line players like IBM, Digital and Sun. Things are different now. My major concern is not that the company is somehow still evil in a Ballmer-esque way, but rather that their focus on enterprise customers will inevitably lead to changes in the core Github offering. We'll see.

evfanknitram 8y ago

Because their developer tools are pretty good and finding jobs as a .NET developer is pretty easy?

jacquesm 8y ago
That doesn't make them an ethical company. Oracle makes a pretty good database. Google makes a good search engine. All of those companies have serious ethical issues and I would not want any of them as the steward of the largest body of open source code on the planet. A federated or independent solution is the only way to go for infrastructure like this.
- evfanknitram 8y ago
  I think you replied to the wrong thread? I replied to a poster who didn't understand why some people were fans of Microsoft.
pas 8y ago
It's pretty easy for non .NET jobs too. Their developer tools are pretty good for their own platform (but JetBrains actually makes great cross platform tools, some of them are proper free and open source, VSCode is playing catch up). Their C++ stdlib implementation was sucking balls for decades. Their (the dev tools') scriptability was horrible. PowerShell is nice, but it came too late, and it was too server focused. C# is okay, MS has great teams and people, but they are still very much run by the bean counters.
- karrotwaltz 8y ago
  MSVC's stdlib is still a headache, just see the /std flag[1] which only appeared in msvc2017: you can either have C++14 with some C++17 features, or C++ "latest" which means 17 and missing features. EDIT: just noticed the article says it was also added to 2013, but my 2015 doesn't support it so idk. I can conceive PowerShell being good as a scripting language, but as a day to day terminal? That would my hell. And the fact that they are forcing so much on it in win10 doesn't help. They do produce some great things sometimes, I agree, it just doesn't average out as positive IMO. [1] https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/mt490614.aspx https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/mt490614.aspx
  - 72deluxe 8y ago
    Perhaps it should be renamed to Power Hell?
    - evfanknitram 8y ago
      I really enjoy PowerShell :)
  - Rusky 8y ago
    Try the newest version of those docs: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/cpp/build/reference/std-specify-language-standard-version https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/cpp/build/reference/std-spe...

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

matwood 8y ago

> Yep, I really dont understand why there are Microsoft fans. I wouldn't consider myself a fan, but their developer tools were (are?) some of the best out there.

retrogradeorbit 8y ago

s/Microsoft/Apple/ s/Xbox/iPad/ I dislike Microsoft a lot. But Apple, just as much. People will take a dump on Microsoft while in the same breath fawn over Apple for identical behaviour. They're all as bad as each other. Yep. Google included.

ksec 8y ago

>Yep, I really dont understand why there are Microsoft fans. Not a Fan, but judging from their recent work, I am giving them the benefits of doubt.

mudetroit 8y ago

> Microsoft has always been a headache. Recently its been a tiny bit better, but they still are a for-profit company that needs to continue to make a profit. Just want to point out that Github was also a "for-profit" company.

0xFFC 8y ago
Exactly. It seems people around here are brainwashed. They are incapable of thinking objectively. You are so naive if you think Apple or Google or Facebook are not for profit! Look at how much data Google has on every single one of us. MSFT is going through a cultural change right now. It was the case for Google, to make money the had to be an advocate of open source. They didn't do that because they are good-hearted or anything else. It is just like geopolitics. Hit your opponent from the weakest point. And Microsoft weak point was open source at that time. But the point is neither MSFT, Apple, Google or Facebook does not care about developers or customers. They want to make money. This is nature of corporations. Instead of nagging and being short-sighted we should embrace open source collaboration by MSFT and should hit them when they don't respect customers.
- pizza234 8y ago
  The expression "for profit" is indeed inappropriate. However, with the understanding of what the poster meant, it does make sense. We're talking about the company whose racket produces 10$ avg for each Android phone sold. I'm talking especially about those FAT patents, which are against the spirit of patenting (independently of being in favour or against patents). I understand that big companies are big and internally conflicting, however, I see a radical conflict of interest between their newfounded open source responsibility and their ruthless business attitude.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- bitmapbrother 8y ago
  >Look at how much data Google has on every single one of us. What about the data Microsoft has on you? Their Windows 10 OS is basically a data funnel right to their servers. They operate a tracking based search engine that also builds profiles on people. And they have data centers in China that are run by Chinese state run companies.

mandeepj 8y ago

> This was to make Microsoft money, nothing to 'help programmers'. This is not mutually exclusive. You need money to keep lights and servers ON

squarefoot 8y ago
As with every other big corporation, including Apple, Google etc. the problem isn't making money, which is perfectly legit and fine, the problem is the "western" economy system which requires, or even encourages, any rogue behavior aimed at maximizing profits at any cost. A company expecting returns for its investment is a thing, but one who buys startups only to destroy them to stop the development of competing products, or engage in legal battles to eliminate competition, is a totally different thing. Most of us criticize the latter, not the former. Unfortunately there's no legal way to prevent a corporation to become a creature turning anything including its integrity into profits, because being an ass in this context brings money and money buys favorable laws.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- fjsolwmv 8y ago
  What does "Western" have to do with anything of this? Should we be "Eastern" like Chinese sweatshops that choke the air with smog? "Middle Eastern" like Qatari slaveowners?
  - oaiey 8y ago
    Let us call it unrestricted capitalism vs. some of the European models where eg the unions/workers have by law one third of the seats in the board.

avip 8y ago

I don't know what the term "Microsoft Fan" means, but count me a proud C#, VSCode, Visual Studio, and even VBScript fan.

oaiey 8y ago
You lost me with VBScript. But before I am with you:)

PaulHoule 8y ago

RHAT is about making money too. They do a good job of it. Unlike Microsoft, however, they can't seem to make GUIs where the font metrics are right (eg. can you read the text properly or does the text overlap or end up being too big or too small for the space?) or scrollbars. Linux is a winner for server apps but on the desktop it seems to get worse over time, not better.

magduf 8y ago
>Linux is a winner for server apps but on the desktop it seems to get worse over time, not better. No, not really. The problem is too many people (like you maybe) associate "Linux desktop" with "Gnome (3)". That's false; there's a bunch of different DEs for Linux. Just look at Xfce; it isn't getting worse. KDE seems to be getting no worse too.
- 72deluxe 8y ago
  I do not associate it with Gnome3 but I have to ask (as I am not longer a desktop Linux user), do they still rewrite every system utility every couple of releases? Back when Fedora Core was a thing, they rewrote the GUI utilities every couple of releases, without actually improving them from what I could tell. And despite installing a binary distribution, they insisted on writing these in Python with bindings to the in-fashion GUI library (typically GTK). This meant the utilities were dog slow and generally very poor. Why not write a compiled binary? Didn't make sense to me. Do they still do that?
  - magduf 8y ago
    I don't know, because I never used Gnome much, and have avoided Gnome3 like the plague. Fedora is very much a Gnome-centric distro, so of course it's going to be like what you say. At home, I use KDE, so of course they're not going to have system utilities binding to GTK. KDE is Qt-centric, so most stuff there is most likely in Qt-flavored C++. Xfce is GTK, but it's known to be fast (I use it at work and it's quick), so I seriously doubt it has system utilities in Python. Honestly, I think all your complaints are really about Gnome3.

wyck 8y ago

Maybe because they always put developers fist, this acquisition is a perfect fir for the brand and legacy. You comment makes no sens, "I don't understand if you are a programmer', no offense but what rock do you live under?

privacypoller 8y ago

As a developer Microsoft has treated my far better than any other corporation pushing an agenda. Amazon seems kind of apathetic towards any one developer or group, Google and Apple can be down-right hostile in their policies or support. Microsoft has by far hosted the most events that I have access to, ranging from global developer conferences to user-group meetings.Their tooling and developer support has always been forefront in their strategy as well. So it's a little disingenuous to say only technology consumers should have positive feelings for Microsoft. Plus, making money & helping programmers are not mutually exclusive; Coupled with their business strategies (good and bad) this has always been MS's strategy to grow and profit from their markets.

foobarbazetc 8y ago
How did they treat Windows Phone developers? How did they treat Nokia employees? Mhmmm.
- wvenable 8y ago
  I'm pretty sure that wasn't the plan.
- Const-me 8y ago
  > How did they treat Windows Phone developers? I was one of them, and Microsoft treated me very well. Windows Phone was an amazing platform. I’ve also developed for iOS a lot. Visual studio + expression blend was way ahead of apple’s xCode. Every single piece was much better: language, libraries, compiler, debugger, emulator, UI designer. The platform is now discontinued so I no longer develop for WP. Meanwhile, most of the skills I’ve obtained working on WP7-8 apps apply to other XAML-based platforms, i.e. WPF, WinRT, and UWP. Fortunately for me, Windows is not going from desktops any time soon.
erik_landerholm 8y ago
I appreciate that Aws is apathetic a bit. The other way to put it would be unintereste or removed or unbiased. They aren’t that helpful, fine. That’s what we get paid the big bucks for. I’ve worjed in the Msft ecosystem...never again, no thanks.

madeofpalk 8y ago

> but they still are a for-profit company that needs to continue to make a profit. This was to make Microsoft money, nothing to 'help programmers'. What a strange criticism. Of course Microsoft is a for-profit company and they're doing this to make more profit - no one is of the delusion of otherwise. They didn't spend $8b out of the goodness of their heart. However, one way you make money is to do and make things people like. Here's hoping Microsoft will recognise the value Github can provide and they do right by it. I'm cautiously optimistic.

Delmania 8y ago
I think many people forget that the word free in free software means free as in free speech, and not free as in free beer. There's no issue with a for profit company selling free software so long as they adhere to the license. It's not quite the case here, but I think too many developers forget that making money is why people start business and why people work.

bernardino 8y ago

> Yep, I really dont understand why there are Microsoft fans. I definitely agree. Anything Microsoft-related, or even Google-related, is a no from me. Just from a product standpoint, most of there products inherently aren’t that great. And you get that feeling when using their products, a feeling of “oh, this must be a Microsoft product because it feels very corporate.” Plus, there approach to design is subpar — it’s like there’s people out there that actually like Google’s Material Design? > Like I understand if you bought an Xbox I have an Xbox, and I just noticed advertisements on the dashboard that are non-gaming related. I also think I saw this when using a friend’s Windows-computer, they have advertisements within their operating system. It’s just bad.

maemilius 8y ago
> it’s like there’s people out there that actually like Google’s Material Design? I like Material Design...

dangoor 8y ago

TypeScript and Visual Studio Code are both really nicely done open source projects. There is a fairly significant group of .NET developers out there, and that's largely open source today. Sure, Microsoft is ultimately out to make money, but they're doing a fair bit to "help programmers" and only making money from those efforts indirectly.

suaveybloke 8y ago

What's wrong with being 'a for-profit company that needs to continue to make a profit'? Should they run their business at a loss?

markbnj 8y ago

Not "always." I started working with Microsoft dev tools in the late 80's and early 90's after Borland's sun began to set (in no small part because MS poached a lot of their best people). There was a time when MS was the developer's best friend, and tools like the early versions of MSDN gave unprecedented access to information that previously had been very hard to get (raise your hand if you ever paid over $100USD for a manual from IBM). Of course back then the FOSS community did not exist, and the alternatives were old line players like IBM, Digital and Sun. Things are different now. My major concern is not that the company is somehow still evil in a Ballmer-esque way, but rather that their focus on enterprise customers will inevitably lead to changes in the core Github offering. We'll see.