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Judge rules that Amazon isn't liable for damages caused by a hoverboard it sold
- master-litty 8y agoRightfully so, how can this be seen any other way? It's the manufacturer's responsibility to make a product that doesn't burn down your house.
- acou_nPlusOne_t 8y agoIts the bazar companys responsibility to avoid counterfeit goods, by having the company who trades their leave either there winnings and/or a safety deposit behind in case they get sued. Its also to make sure, the legal system of the customer binds on the trading contract and inform/warn the customer that the item in question could be a molotow cocktail.
- seabird 8y agoI re-read the article a few times and saw no mention of the product being counterfeit. They are all chintzy, poorly constructed, and come out of the same factory or two. Even if there was a brand name to counterfeit, the "counterfeit" would likely be almost exactly the same as the genuine article. Monoprice has a business model based on this premise. What is the metric for "Molotov cocktail"? Anything that has batteries with a high energy density can be extremely dangerous. Cell phones, laptops, RC cars, power banks, and anything with a lithium ion battery can catastrophically and potentially fatally fail. Sure, you could mandate that Amazon run their own battery of safety tests on every product that is sold on their site; they sure as hell could afford it. The problem is that there's just about nobody else in the market that can.
- baybal2 8y agoMost of that stuff simply never goes through Amazon's hands. Amazon simply acts as a Chinese dropshipper for overseas purchases. They decided that it is best to copy AliExpress, than be overwhelmed by it.
- astura 8y agoThe article explains another way to see it - because the manufacturer in this case (and most safety cases involving Amazon) are sketchy Chinese companies that are selling products that don't even attempt to meet any sort of safety standards, contain counterfeit safety markings, and are basically illegal to sell in the United States. Both the seller and manufacturer are impossible to track down when something goes wrong. I would bet even if you were able to track them down it would be impossible to enforce any fines or judgements against them because they are in an outside jurisdiction. It can be argued that Amazon should have some sort legal responsibility to do a miminal vetting process for things it sells on it's site. Or, in other words, should be required to make an effort to only sell legal products. "Not our problem that someone else is using our store to sell illegal and unsafe products that we store in our wearhouses, accept payment for, and deliver" shouldn't be a valid defense.
- ctrl-j 8y agoIn your eyes, what would be the mechanism for a US citizen to sue a manufacturer who has no presence outside of China other than the Amazon marketplace?
- asfasgasg 8y agoI could imagine maybe a law requiring foreign companies to obtain a bond when selling consumer goods, if they don't have substantial presence in the U.S. This bond would be a surety that consumers could recover damages in the case of negligence, at least up to a certain amount. I don't see the argument for requiring Amazon to perform that service, though.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- sk5t 8y agoSuppose the foreign entity decided to flout that law, and never did acquire a bond, or reported a nonexistent bond. Would it be Amazon's responsibility to detect this situation, and what remedy would be available to the customer regardless?
- scarface74 8y agoIt should be a registered bond with a trusted source. You wouldn't trust escrow funds that weren't held by a trustworthy party if you were involved in real estate.
- sk5t 8y agoWould Amazon then check and enforce the status/claims against the bond as part of processing each order? It's an interesting idea for sure. It seems like this would put a total stop to inventory commingling, which does sound attractive, at an abstract level.
- mohdmasd 8y agoLetter of Guarantee? https://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/letter_of_guarantee.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/letter_of_guarantee.asp
- buckminster 8y agoThe consumer has no contract with the manufacturer. It is the vendor's responsibility. Of course, the vendor can sue the manufacturer but that's a separate thing. However, Amazon is successfully arguing that they are not the vendor. The vendor is a third party using Amazon's platform. Edit: that said, I think this needs to change.
- c2h5oh 8y agoFollowing the same logic eBay would be liable for anything anyone sells on it. And Etsy too. Expanding even further next in the line would be Craigslist, with the defense hinging on argument they don't facilitate payments like etsy, amazon or ebay. So where do we draw the line?
- ezrast 8y agoOne possible line is that you can't have a vendor-vendee relationship between two parties if one of them doesn't know the other exists. It's nonsensical to claim that Amazon is facilitating a relationship between manufacturer and buyer if we take at face value the claim that they don't even know who the manufacturer is. At that point, Amazon effectively owns the product and is a reseller.
- yardie 8y agoLet’s keep it simple. Whoever takes the money is the vendor. Amazon lists it, amazon fulfills it, and they get paid for it. Sounds like the vendor to me.
- disposablename 8y agoAmazon takes your money, they are responsible for the shit they receive.
- mikestew 8y agoI’ll be curious to see what happens when Amazon sells a fake Apple iPhone charger, which subsequently burns a house down. The difference here is that Amazon advertised it as Apple brand. Or is that going to be on the shoulders of the wholesaler^W”seller”, too?
- takeda 8y agoI would assume that all iPhone chargers on Amazon are fake. Would Apple be ok selling their products through Amazon?
- scarface74 8y agoI know that all "Apple" wired headphones on Amazon are fake. The AirPods are probably genuine.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- ikeboy 8y agoI know this not to be the case. Many of them are but there is some legitimate inventory there, I know several people in the industry.
- scarface74 8y agoI just searched on Amazon for "Apple headphones". On at least the first page, all of the reviews stated they were fake. Can you find a link for genuine Apple headphones from Amazon?
- ikeboy 8y agoThe first link has almost 11 thousand reviews and currently 34 sellers. 44% of those reviews are 5 star. 34% are 1 star. It is certainly the case that some of those sellers are selling fakes. It is also likely that some are selling authentic products.
- jacob019 8y agoSince a year or more Amazon is tough on vendors in regards to safety issues. More products require regulatory approval and a single product review mentioning safety problems can get a product pulled.
- mikeash 8y agoSounds like there needs to be a “know your merchant” law. It makes sense to me that Amazon might not be liable, but it makes no sense at all that people can’t get in touch with the actual seller.
- aldoushuxley001 8y agoIt makes zero sense to me that Amazon might be liable.
- marcoperaza 8y agoBased on his comment, I think mikeash meant “not liable”.
- dmix 8y agoAgreed and I agree with him if that's what he meant, which is interesting to consider the different response each one got. Much like gun manufacturers aren't responsible for their use, I can't imagine a platform which lets vendors set up their own shops online becoming responsible for what is sold by the vendor.
- azinman2 8y agoMeanwhile bar tenders in many states are responsible for drunk drivers. Craigslist is now responsible for sex traffic on it’s website (which is why personals are gone). Liability laws are not consistent.
- mikeash 8y agoYou’re correct. My brain must have taken a brief vacation. I corrected it now.
- devereaux 8y agocounterfeit items like SD cards dominate on Amazon. I tried reporting fake electronic equipment - nothing happened, except I seldom buy anything on Amazon anymore. Amazon should at least be liable for willingly selling items that do not match the description (if they tell me it's a Sandisk SD, I buy it because I believe it is!)
- vinceguidry 8y agoThis is just going to make me more and more wary of buying through Amazon. Good companies aren't afraid of accountability.
- mattigames 8y agoWe know how Americans think; meaning if they had won this one many people would start pretending a product bought on Amazon puts their lives at risk just to sue amazon and get a bit fat check; even burning their own house if they can win for more than the house is worth.
- takeda 8y agoI learned that a friend was (maybe still is) selling vitamins and probiotics through Amazon. I wasn't able to learn who was producing it only knew that it was made in US and most likey a neighbor. He also was selling vitamin K, when asked my doctor about she said she would recommend not to take it, and the daily dose suggested is typically prescribed and usually taken one time. That seriously made me cautious about it, literally anyone can start selling on Amazon and there is not easy way to figure out where things come from.
- scarface74 8y agoWell seeing that most experts think that taking vitamins and are worthless anyway, it wouldn't really matter if they were fake.... https://www.webmd.com/vitamins-and-supplements/news/20131216/experts-dont-waste-your-money-on-multivitamins https://www.webmd.com/vitamins-and-supplements/news/20131216... I'm not convinced that taking probiotics isn't junk science.
- astura 8y agoIt would matter if they contained unlisted ingredients that were allergens or worse, toxic. It would also matter to someone like me - I take vitamins because of measured vitamin deficiency that I wasn't able to correct with diet alone. If my vitamins did not contain vitamins I would start to have deficiency symptoms again.
- spaceman1331 8y agowhat state is Amazon in just bomb them blame the jews kill a whole bunch of people if your customers lives are worthless, then your people are worthless this is war the people of the usa can declare war on the people in the state where Amazon is allowed to have its headquarters we outnumber you we can kill half your people we can kill 99% of your people you keep killing us, why shouldn't we kill you you are attacking us you fucking idiots you are negative life you are an internal enemy you are a traitor we can legally execute you trial by trigger finger
- guelo 8y agoI'm so done with Amazon, it's all shady Chinese companies selling counterfeits and knockoffs. I was blown away when I bought fake Dove soap the other day in perfect looking packaging. It's impossible to trust anything on there.
- astura 8y agoWhat gave it away that the soap was a knockoff? I can't say I'd know how to identify counterfeit soap other than maybe extremely low quality packaging.
- guelo 8y agoI happened to have the same soap bought at a Walgreens to compare it with. It smelled much worse, an unknown chemically smell, and it was about 30 percent smaller, though it still had the characteristic Dove oval shape.
- jokh 8y agoInteresting. Were you able to get it refunded?
- guelo 8y agoNot worth it.
- azinman2 8y agoYou should, or at least report it. That’s how it continues.
- throwaway59928 8y agoReporting doesn’t work. I reported a counterfeit item and amazon apologized and refunded the money and promised to go after the seller. In the end they removed all of the seller’s negative feedback since it was “fulfilled by amazon”. What a joke.
- mnm1 8y agoBy this reasoning no merchant is ever liable for any of their products because they all come from third parties. Tablet blows up? Don't blame Samsung or Apple, blame the supplier in China. This is all part of the trend over the last few decades of removing any accountability, responsibility, or liability big companies might have towards people so they can profit more and never be held responsible for their actions. This also follows the same trend in government itself where public officials and servants themselves are no longer held responsible for their actions even when their actions cause the loss of human lives. In a culture that loves nothing more than to blame others and never accept blame, this leads to government and companies that respond to no one, are not regulated or overseen by anyone, and eventually commit atrocities including maiming and murdering people for profit and advancement. We really should start to think as a society about holding these entities responsible for their reprehensible actions. Otherwise what is the message we give as a society? That it's ok to hurt and kill others as long as you do it as part or a company or government. Is that the type of society we really want to be?
- VectorLock 8y agoCouldn't Walmart also say they're just a marketplace and abdicate responsibility the same way Amazon did?
- crazygringo 8y agoForget about the main focus of the article... (I would prefer liability to lie with the manufacturer, no store online or offline is equipped to expertly and independently analyze and judge the safety of all the things they sell, but whatever.) But how on earth can Amazon sell something and then lose track of the merchant, especially a foreign one? There seem to be so many necessary guarantees this breaks, not just product liability but obeying import/export laws, handling taxes, financial regulations preventing money laundering, and so on. How is it legal for an American company to sell, or even list foreign products to American consumers where the "manufacturer is unknown"? Is there some kind of loophole in the laws?
- awat 8y agoThat was my first takeaway too. It’s one of the biggie no-no’s in banking to not know the customer. I’m at a loss on why that would be ok here. I’m also fine with the manufacturer taking the liability but for the retailer to say we don’t know, is at best incompetence and at worst a middle finger to the US consumer.
- dd36 8y agoThe manufacturer should have to be required to maintain liability insurance with a claims process. If Amazon doesn’t enforce that standard, it should have to stand in.
- awat 8y agoThat would make sense to me. Not to over simplify the issue but I would settle with Amazon having skin in the game period. They seem to be extremely good at engineering ways to deflect responsibility (financially or ethically).
- baybal2 8y agoThat applies to domestic manufacturers and ones having legal representation on US soil. An "Uncle Liu garage factory co." obviously does not qualify as such.
- 8y ago
- hiisukun 8y agoI understand that making the shop rather than the manufacturer liable for such a thing would prima facie seem strange. But since amazon profited from the sale, where I'm from (Australia) they might need to show they weren't recklessly indifferent to the safety standards of the manufacturers they stock - especially this one, but also as a policy in general. Perhaps there is some useful question here, seeing the number of comments regarding fake, counterfeit or unsafe products. Might these outcomes be "reasonably foreseeable"? Again, where I'm from this could cause Amazon some issues - I only hope other legal systems have similar principles.
- nimish 8y agoSurprised Amazon even allows you to sue it, what with mandatory arbitration being all the rage. Welcome to America. Corporate power rules.
- crazybit 8y agoIt makes sense for Amazon to not be liable for damages caused by the manufacturer (should eBay be liable for everything sold on its platform?). But doesn't it also make sense for Amazon to be liable for allowing 3rd parties to sell counterfeit or not-as-advertised items? Also, how far does this go? Where is the line crossed?
- dd36 8y agoI wonder how this will apply to solar glasses. Amazon has to require standards and insurance from sellers.
- ada1981 8y agoI heard an argument once that said basically almost all tech companies are just profiting off the arbitrage between the developed and the developing world. Cheap goods make in China are facilitated by Amazon, and all media and content companies are basically just advertising for those products.
- xstartup 8y agoIf Amazon can profit off a listing then why shouldn't it be held liable for the damage caused due to the listing? If Amazon has already put up an agreement which frees them from liability then it sounds like, "Ok, I'll be with you in your good time but I'll walk away as soon as you have a misfortune" like an unfaithful life partner. Of course, I know this is by design. But is it ethical?
- GhostVII 8y agoShouldn't the liability be placed on the company actually selling the product through amazon? Amazon is a marketplace, not a manufacturer, in most cases I think
- xstartup 8y agoAmazon does profit off the listing is my assertion. Without Amazon, listing's ability to damage at scale is limited. Can't we argue that it is one of the partners in crime?
- GhostVII 8y agoAmazon profits off of it, but so do the shipping companies and payment processors that helped sell the product and increase its sales. I don't think a platform that provides a service should be responsible for those that use the service, unless they explicitly claim responsiblity by saying they guarantee quality of their merchants or something. If amazon is responsible for the damage caused by their products, than so are places like Craigslist and eBay.