8 ms·
EU Commission presents draft directive to ban some plastic waste
- hartator 8y agoIt’s worth noting that I’ve seen poor families in France reusing plastic forks and knives. Like always, this kind of policy hurts the poor a lot more.
- psergeant 8y agoPoverty reduction programs, not trashing the planet, is the correct response to that
- api 8y agoThat can work to a point, but if environmental policies permanently increase the cost of things like energy then poverty reduction programs must pay that cost. That in turn inflates the cost of poverty reduction programs, making them require increased taxation. This in turn drags down the economy, creating more poverty.
- Vinnl 8y ago> That in turn inflates the cost of poverty reduction programs, making them require increased taxation. That, or reducing spending, or increasing taxation income through other investments.
- simion314 8y agoIs not cheaper to help only the poor then have the plastic,energy etc cheap for everyone? Seems like the ones that consume and pollute the most will have the most too lose.
- api 8y agoThe poor and especially the middle class account for the vast majority of consumption and pollution in aggregate. Per capita the rich consume more, but not as much more as you might think. The typical multi-millionaire or even billionaire does not personally consume 1000X or 1000000X more than your typical member of the middle class. Maybe 10X more at most. Beyond a certain point this is "paper wealth." Diminishing marginal utility of goods and services kicks in pretty hard once you reach the upper middle class to "lower rich" brackets. You just don't get much more value from consuming more because you've hit the value limits of technology and/or human subjective perception. The rich also derive their wealth largely through poor and middle class consumption. They either run industries directly, invest in them, or profit off rents that could not be paid without other industrial activity to subsidize them.
- simion314 8y agoThe point was about the poor, middle class should be able to afford the recycling costs. From all the products that were listed the only ones I think could affect poor people would be the car tires, if the prices for this tires would increase, but plastic straws or sticks for baloons costing more won't affect the poor that much.
- rypskar 8y agoThey have already started to look for alternatives to plastic and rubber in car tires. http://www.continentaltire.com/news/continental-constructing-tires-dandelions http://www.continentaltire.com/news/continental-constructing...
- simion314 8y agoCool, I hope we will have good ,safe and cheap tires. If the law does not put a bit of pressure we never get this new technology. I was also thinking that it would be good if we got brakes like the racing cars have, those strong breaks could save some lives, I know there is a log of G force but it would be better then an almost instant stop in a wall.
- jri939mcko 8y agoThe Bible and other nonsense myths used to guide the masses in the past show we don’t need to abide economics to build a rule set for society We could do with a little less fetishizing “economics are physics and the rules of the universe” nonsense The contemporary economy is basically held hostage by a handful of emotional babies and economists measuring within their curated playground How that establishes economic activity they observe as facts of objective reality, I dunno? So who even knows what’s “real” trade and not “gun at head, build us chat bots or work retail cause daddy says so” servitude
- psergeant 8y agoIf the economy is being boosted by the cost to the environment being ignored, that just means the world is taking on a type of debt.
- hartator 8y agoBeing able to buy products that are most cost effective is the only real way we’ve found to be able to reduce poverty.
- simion314 8y agoIf we factor the recycling costs in this products and implement that recycling then all is fine, the products have the correct price and the recycling also takes place. The problem is when the environmental costs are not included and it must be paid by the next generation. About energy some countries have special prices for the first X KW of energy used for poor families, so it is possible to have the energy prices increased so people would try turning off things they don't need.
- api 8y agoEnvironmental policy is probably the main factor that has driven a wedge between progressives/liberals and the working class. Nearly all environmental regulations are regressive when considered as taxes. The rich can afford to pay more for cleaner energy, durable goods, recycling, and so on. The poor cannot. I am not saying that either concern is invalid. Environmental concerns are real. I am simply pointing out a political problem that needs to be solved.
- simion314 8y agoYou can avoid having poor people pay more by creating recycle points, you pay more on a soda can or bottle but you get the extra money back when you return the empty can/bottle. (I know some will say is not comfortable to do this so we need more education to have people understand why this is important)
- vidarh 8y agoIn fact in Norway, bottle returns are accepted in pretty much every store or gas station (pretty much anywhere that sells bottled drinks), and have been an income source for kids or poor people for decades. It's contributed to a collection rate in the 95%+ range, so it doesn't just mitigate the increased costs, it provides income.
- simion314 8y agoExactly, so who would not like this? Someone that uses a lot and can't be bother to bring the bottles back but he would like the money returned. I know that someone could invent now some extremely rare scenario but I am talking about a big majority.
- ganzuul 8y agoEnvironmental and economic concerns are never at odds with each other. - It can only look like they are when you do the numbers of economy wrong.
- DmenshunlAnlsis 8y ago
- simion314 8y agoWhat do you mean? They are so poor they can't afford metal or wood tools? We need to consider the real costs of this products, to include the price we need to pay to recycle them.
- hartator 8y agoYes, it’s what I meant. Plastic culterly can be found in your local supermarket for very cheap, and when you don’t have a car, and can’t received packages from Amazon, it can be truly your unique solution.
- simion314 8y agoBut is not everyone you are thinking of have already metal tools? you use those for life. I see plastic things used for fast foods or maybe you have some cheap gathering and don't want to use your good tools so they are not lost.
- hartator 8y agoOf course metal and wood tools are usually of a better quality, and they are nicer. I would avoid plastic until I can’t financially. However, the rationale of poor families buy plastic ustensils does make sense. You can buy a lot more for 2 or 3 euros, can reuse it, and it’s more easily obtainable.
- mirekrusin 8y agoThe ban is on "single use plastic items" - it's hard to argue with it - it just makes sense. Poor families you've seen will be able to re-use plastic forks and knives as long as they are meant to be durable, not one time use items; and they'll last for them longer, so better for them, no?
- new299 8y agoI can't see this killing off disposable cutlery completely, there are too many businesses that rely on it. Disposable cutlery can be made from wood for example (and often is, e.g. chopsticks). That said, is it really an issue? A complete set of cutlery for a family of 3 would cost less than 10USD, delivered (based on a quick eBay search). No doubt plastic "non-disposable" cutlery is or would be cheaply available locally.
- hartator 8y agoYes, but when you are limited in your transportation, and can’t buy online, and that’s the case for some poor families, the local supermarket and their plastic cutleries is a solution that just works.
- new299 8y agoAnd what's wrong with disposable cutlery made out of wood, that could also be reused? It's already used, manufacturing costs are likely similar... In the UK, metal cutlery is available in supermarkets for less than 1USD per utensil. Are you suggesting this is too much?
- simion314 8y agoDisposable cutlery does not need to disappear, we need to have them properly recycled. You could pay an extra 1Euro at a fast food, and get it back when you return the plastic like with beer bottles. Or as you suggest use wood or paper based ones.
- gepi79 8y agoI wonder about your intentions. Stainless steel cutlery for a family costs about 30 euros. This is nothing compared to the cost of living in France. After 1 - 2 years, it is also cheaper than plastic forks and knives.
- ralfn 8y agoFor somebody from Holland it's hard to understand how any family being that poor in a country like France with all it's socialism and union rights can be a thing. We count as quite capitalistic compared to France but just for having children alone you get a compensation that already puts you out of that territory. (Of course we don't take this compensation away for working parents -- everybody always gets its. And from the age of 16 it's actually deposited in the account of the child itself) And that's not even our (dressed down) welfare system: this is just making sure kids in school grow up in a somewhat egalitarian way. This has to be an exaggeration. Nobody is that poor in France, right?
- ganzuul 8y agoI want to put 2D barcodes on trash-to-be. Then when you find it in nature you should be able to trace it to when and where it was purchased. If this is one of those 10% of users causing 90% of the problems - type situations this would be an effective strategy to hold trashy people accountable.
- newman8r 8y agoThat's a really interesting idea. Kind of like wheresgeorge.com for trash
- jbob2000 8y agoYou don’t even need to go that far, somebody has already studied where the garbage comes from: https://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/wilderness-resources/blogs/ocean-plastic-rivers https://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/wilderness-resources/blogs... Summary: China and India. We can and should curb our plastic use in the West, but there are 2 billion+ people on the other side of the world that don’t give a flying fuck. (Yeah yeah, we polluted when we were developing too. But we barely had 100 million people when that was happening. And no plastics)
- ISL 8y agoOne of the most powerful ways to lead is by example. If we can do the hard work of figuring out how to get sustainability right, it will be easier to help everyone else get on board.
- haste410 8y agoWhat happens when my trash, or even something I purchased that later became trash because of someone else, finds its way outside of normal disposal routes through no fault of my own?
- ganzuul 8y agoProbably nothing. Usually people don't make decisions based on only a single point of evidence.
- franzpeterstein 8y agohttps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17167261 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17167261
- ldjb 8y agoIt's important to consider that people with some disabilities rely on plastic straws to be able to drink: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-derbyshire-43879489/plastic-straws-call-for-government-to-rethink-policy https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-derbyshire-43879489... Plastic straws and polystyrene plates are also common materials for arts and crafts. Whilst pollution is certainly an issue that must be tackled, banning disposable plastic products does have its drawbacks. I'm not saying a ban should not occur, but its implications should be considered.
- maskros 8y agos/plastic straws/straws/ ... there's nothing to prevent you from using paper, waxed paper, or reusable metal drinking straws except a price increase.
- ldjb 8y agoAs was said in the video, ordinary paper disintegrates and metal straws can be dangerous. Waxed paper straws could work, though.
- simion314 8y agoThere are bamboo drinking straws, I am not sure that the plastic ones will be banned or made much more expensive.
- seszett 8y agoWell, it is easy to imagine some plastic straws being allowed as medical devices really.
- avar 8y ago> Curbing the use of plastic cups for beverages I wonder what this will mean for events & festivals. E.g. Amsterdam has made it a policy that big events (including normal bars when the event is going on) must issue plastic cups to curb broken class everywhere. Will we have to go back to glass, or drink our beer out of paper cups? > as well as plastic food containers, such as the ones used for take-away. I'm open to this, it sucks to have to throw so much crap away after ordering take-away, but I haven't seen a container yet that would be suitable for e.g. 80 degree centigrade soups, stews etc. What are the alternatives that are cheap enough for disposable take-away use? > Producers of fishing gear — which accounts for 27 percent of beach litter — will be required to cover the costs of waste collection in ports. I'm worried about how making manufacturers pay for something like this will produce unintended externalities. I can also buy thin plastic lines that wink wink totally aren't intended for fishing. Won't it be trivial to avoid these taxes? > Each member state should use a deposit system or other measure in order to collect 90 percent of plastic bottles used in their country by 2025. I wouldn't mind such a system where you e.g. get 1 EUR back for each bottle, but it's going to have to be something like that. The current deposit fees on plastic bottles are too low, once you're earning enough money it doesn't make any financial sense to return them.
- simion314 8y ago>I wouldn't mind such a system where you e.g. get 1 EUR back for each bottle, but it's going to have to be something like that. The current deposit fees on plastic bottles are too low, once you're earning enough money it doesn't make any financial sense to return them. I think in some countries if you don't want to get your money back you leave the bottles and cans near the garbage bin or other places and a kid or a poor person will return it and make some money.
- avar 8y ago> I think in some countries if you don't want to get your money back you leave the bottles and cans near the garbage bin or other places and a kid or a poor person will return it and make some money. Indeed. Personally I do this because it's not worth it for me to recycle it on my own, but I still care about the environment and my fellow man. But what I'm pointing out is that it's an economically irrational decision on my part, and if someone doesn't give a shit about the environment to the point of not bothering with recycling unless it's costing them money not to do it, they probably don't care that much about their fellow man either. So in some sense it's a regressive tax (although short term), but I'd be for a policy where drinks cost a bit more to make it economically worthwhile for more people who aren't going to do it because they're nice, but for profit.
- acd 8y agoVery happy about the EU plastic ban lets hope it gets passed. Plastic waste which contains BPA bisphenol which is a weak estrogen and ends up in the oceans. Fish eat the plastic waste, humans eat the fish and becomes infertile. Plates can be made of paper, also cups can be made of paper. Banning plastic makes it easy to avoid plastic waste in the oceans. I hope we also ban all food packaging since a lot of that ends up in the ocean and there is no need for plastic food packaging. Bisphenol A of plastic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisphenol_A https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisphenol_A
- vincnetas 8y agoEC press release : http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-18-3927_en.htm http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-18-3927_en.htm
- DuskStar 8y agoThis seems a little too "signal, not help" to me. ~90% of plastic in the ocean comes from 10 rivers [0] of which 8 are in Asia and two in Africa - so reducing the use of plastic in Europe won't have any global impact and will probably have a variety of unintended consequences. But plastic in the oceans is a problem and so we must be seen to be doing something... 0: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/stemming-the-plastic-tide-10-rivers-contribute-most-of-the-plastic-in-the-oceans/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/stemming-the-plas...
- siruncledrew 8y agoIt's pretty insane that 90% of the plastic dumped into the ocean comes from 10 rivers (including many famous ones)[0]. Two are in Africa (the Nile and the Niger) while the other eight are in Asia (the Ganges, Indus, Yellow, Yangtze, Haihe, Pearl, Mekong and Amur). What were once historically prominent rivers that greatly contributed to agriculture and civilization are now disgusting cesspools of trash and pollution. [0] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/stemming-the-plastic-tide-10-rivers-contribute-most-of-the-plastic-in-the-oceans/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/stemming-the-plas...