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The problem to think in those `Apac`s as a better way to the prisional system in Brazil is that it cant be take in the whole country. It's easier to keep the d

The problem to think in those `Apac`s as a better way to the prisional system in Brazil is that it cant be take in the whole country. It's easier to keep the desired inmate's behaviour in an Apac because they select who they want (so, they can avoid someone who might bring trouble, an option that the entire system doesn't has); another point is the inmate's fear in going back to a "normal" prison. I live in Brazil, and discussions related to Apac already happened in some groups that fight for humans right, and I've never seen one of them thinking in Apac as a solution to our prisional system.

gnud 8y ago
Even if you can't have Apac's for all prisoners, wouldn't it be a great idea to try to have it for a lot more prisoners, perhaps even for most?
- paulojean 8y ago
  It does not looks like it would be possible to do this to the most of the prisioners. For example in 2014 we had a defict of 200k [1] vacancies, we dont even have the space needed to replicate the Apac to a high number of people [1] http://g1.globo.com/brasil/noticia/2014/01/brasil-tem-hoje-deficit-de-200-mil-vagas-no-sistema-prisional.html http://g1.globo.com/brasil/noticia/2014/01/brasil-tem-hoje-d...
ihsw2 8y ago
Why does the entire system need to be "fixed?" Imprisoning criminals are the #1 way to reduce crime. Enabling responsible individuals to escape that Hell is a good thing that is easy to accomplish, whereas teaching large swaths of the prison population to act responsibly is impossible.
- dpark 8y ago
  Have you considered that perhaps prison shouldn’t be hell? To my knowledge there is no evidence that horrible prisons in any way reduce crime vs decent prisons. I believe there’s quite a bit of evidence in the other direction, and that prisons which emphasize learning life skills rather than surviving hell reduce recidivism.
  - SlowRobotAhead 8y ago
    You’re arguing the idea of 3 hots and a cot - vs reality of prison. A “nice” prison isn’t someplace you want to be.
    - dpark 8y ago
      Of course not, which is the point. No one wants to be in prison. Making prison a horrible place of violence and rape doesn’t make recidivism less likely.
      - logfromblammo 8y ago
        If anything, the violent criminals that do reoffend will be more willing to do additional, more severe crimes to avoid capture. Instead of surrendering, the criminal might carjack someone and lead a high-speed chase, where the criminal is more likely to either escape or die than return to prison. Making prisons low-key torture facilities doesn't help anyone other than the "tough on crime" politicians that encourage such conditions in order to get cheap votes from people whose moral development is at Kohlberg's stage 4 or lower.
  - ihsw2 8y ago
    Rehabilitation is unrelated to improving the stability and security of society.
- Cthulhu_ 8y ago
  > Imprisoning criminals are the #1 way to reduce crime. Citation needed. What about reducing poverty? Why do people steal? Ask yourself that first before going for the more authoritaxn option of just locking people away - in a lot of cases, the damages caused by the crime are less than the cost of having someone locked up (paid for by the taxpayer).
  - ihsw2 8y ago
    Reducing poverty and figuring out why people steal is unrelated to improving the safety and stability of society.
vidarh 8y ago
But conversely, in Norway at least the possibility of being transfered to open prisons like this is a motivation for many prisoners to behave better as well. It doesn't need to solve the problem alone.
- ams6110 8y ago
  So motivation to avoid prison altogether doesn't work (given the need for prisons) but prisoners will be motivated by the possibility of transfer to a better prison? Not sure.
  - Cthulhu_ 8y ago
    When you're caught you're caught, when you're in you'll want to make your stay as pleasant as possible. Crime reporting and solving rates are relatively low, so most people get away with it [1]; only half the crimes are reported, and of those, less than half again (for violent crimes) or less than a fifth (for property theft) are solved. Statistically speaking you have less than 10% chance of getting arrested, and depending on the crime, even less chance of getting convicted. So yeah, your odds of not going to jail when committing a crime are pretty good. [1]: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/03/01/most-violent-and-property-crimes-in-the-u-s-go-unsolved/ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/03/01/most-violent...
  - vidarh 8y ago
    That some people commit crimes despite the risk of punishment does not mean the existence of punishment has no deterrent effect at all. And nowhere did I suggest that all prisoners will be motivated to do what is needed to get into these open prisons. It's not necessary either (though desirable): every prisoner who does behave better to earn better conditions free up resources to deal with those who don't. The more open prisons in Norway often have waiting lists of prisoners applying for transfers, and every indication I'm aware of is that prisoners often put in a lot of effort to qualify.
- SlowRobotAhead 8y ago
  The population of Norway is about 50% that of Ohio USA in over 2x the area (5 million people). About 2.5% the population of Brazil. It’s a high cost of living nation with very limited poverty. I don’t think you should use it in ANY comparison to Brazil.

gnud 8y ago

Even if you can't have Apac's for all prisoners, wouldn't it be a great idea to try to have it for a lot more prisoners, perhaps even for most?

paulojean 8y ago
It does not looks like it would be possible to do this to the most of the prisioners. For example in 2014 we had a defict of 200k [1] vacancies, we dont even have the space needed to replicate the Apac to a high number of people [1] http://g1.globo.com/brasil/noticia/2014/01/brasil-tem-hoje-deficit-de-200-mil-vagas-no-sistema-prisional.html http://g1.globo.com/brasil/noticia/2014/01/brasil-tem-hoje-d...

ihsw2 8y ago

Why does the entire system need to be "fixed?" Imprisoning criminals are the #1 way to reduce crime. Enabling responsible individuals to escape that Hell is a good thing that is easy to accomplish, whereas teaching large swaths of the prison population to act responsibly is impossible.

dpark 8y ago
Have you considered that perhaps prison shouldn’t be hell? To my knowledge there is no evidence that horrible prisons in any way reduce crime vs decent prisons. I believe there’s quite a bit of evidence in the other direction, and that prisons which emphasize learning life skills rather than surviving hell reduce recidivism.
- SlowRobotAhead 8y ago
  You’re arguing the idea of 3 hots and a cot - vs reality of prison. A “nice” prison isn’t someplace you want to be.
  - dpark 8y ago
    Of course not, which is the point. No one wants to be in prison. Making prison a horrible place of violence and rape doesn’t make recidivism less likely.
    - logfromblammo 8y ago
      If anything, the violent criminals that do reoffend will be more willing to do additional, more severe crimes to avoid capture. Instead of surrendering, the criminal might carjack someone and lead a high-speed chase, where the criminal is more likely to either escape or die than return to prison. Making prisons low-key torture facilities doesn't help anyone other than the "tough on crime" politicians that encourage such conditions in order to get cheap votes from people whose moral development is at Kohlberg's stage 4 or lower.
- ihsw2 8y ago
  Rehabilitation is unrelated to improving the stability and security of society.
Cthulhu_ 8y ago
> Imprisoning criminals are the #1 way to reduce crime. Citation needed. What about reducing poverty? Why do people steal? Ask yourself that first before going for the more authoritaxn option of just locking people away - in a lot of cases, the damages caused by the crime are less than the cost of having someone locked up (paid for by the taxpayer).
- ihsw2 8y ago
  Reducing poverty and figuring out why people steal is unrelated to improving the safety and stability of society.

vidarh 8y ago

But conversely, in Norway at least the possibility of being transfered to open prisons like this is a motivation for many prisoners to behave better as well. It doesn't need to solve the problem alone.

ams6110 8y ago
So motivation to avoid prison altogether doesn't work (given the need for prisons) but prisoners will be motivated by the possibility of transfer to a better prison? Not sure.
- Cthulhu_ 8y ago
  When you're caught you're caught, when you're in you'll want to make your stay as pleasant as possible. Crime reporting and solving rates are relatively low, so most people get away with it [1]; only half the crimes are reported, and of those, less than half again (for violent crimes) or less than a fifth (for property theft) are solved. Statistically speaking you have less than 10% chance of getting arrested, and depending on the crime, even less chance of getting convicted. So yeah, your odds of not going to jail when committing a crime are pretty good. [1]: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/03/01/most-violent-and-property-crimes-in-the-u-s-go-unsolved/ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/03/01/most-violent...
- vidarh 8y ago
  That some people commit crimes despite the risk of punishment does not mean the existence of punishment has no deterrent effect at all. And nowhere did I suggest that all prisoners will be motivated to do what is needed to get into these open prisons. It's not necessary either (though desirable): every prisoner who does behave better to earn better conditions free up resources to deal with those who don't. The more open prisons in Norway often have waiting lists of prisoners applying for transfers, and every indication I'm aware of is that prisoners often put in a lot of effort to qualify.
SlowRobotAhead 8y ago
The population of Norway is about 50% that of Ohio USA in over 2x the area (5 million people). About 2.5% the population of Brazil. It’s a high cost of living nation with very limited poverty. I don’t think you should use it in ANY comparison to Brazil.