9 ms·

Prison without guards or weapons in Brazil

76 points by dvdhnt 8y ago

oxide 8y ago
What a wonderful story. Nobody flees from love, indeed. This is an idea with tangible value. Not just for Brazil, either.
- hutzlibu 8y ago
  But they are evil! Why else would they be in prison in the first place so you must crush their twistes minds with every humilation possible and then force them by any means to become good humans again out of fear for more punishmant ... why change that wonderful, established system, that has proven to work so well?
- pelasaco 8y ago
  they have 60.000 murders/year. Please, there almost no one flees from a bullet.
- raverbashing 8y ago
  But (not) fleeing from discipline is not such a guaranteed win. This model is good for non-violent inmates, but it doesn't work for all cases.
  - krespucular 8y ago
    The fact that it doesn't work in one sense (containing people) is the reason it might work in another sense (reforming people). If the majority of inmates are serious about reform then this will have a powerful '100th monkey' effect on new inmates.
jopsen 8y ago
Can't help but dream that private prisons could do like this and save money on guards, cooking, property, etc.. housing aggressive prisoners have got to be expensive, compared to housing non-aggressive ones. I guess that either (a) regulation mandates security / poor conditions, or (b) nobody is quite crazy enough to try and make money by disrupting the private prison business :)
- jernfrost 8y ago
  In Norway, we tend to follow a non-aggressive approach to prison and despite much higher standards than say in the US, the cost per prisoner isn't significantly higher. Prison guards in Norway are essentially university educated social workers. American prison guards from what I've read are essentially just guys with a stick. They just get a couple of weeks of training. Guards in Norway work closely with prisoners and do activities with them and get to know them. This leads to lower levels of aggression. I've seen accounts of other European visiting Norwegian prisons remarking how much more calm the atmosphere is. When you lock up people and treat them as animals you create anger, resentment and aggression which they take out on each other or the guards if given the opportunity. I believe this is a principle which applies to all walks of life including how you raise children. Children who live under strict regimes which are heavily focused on punishment don't act well. They easily become violent and lack self control. If there is always an overwhelming force present to punish every transgression you make, all you learn is to be behave when you are under threat. When that control is gone you have no ability to control yourself.
  - assblaster 8y ago
    How do Norway prisons deal with formation of gangs, which are essentially small businesses that seek to "disrupt" the prison economy?
    - jasonmaydie 8y ago
      Norway has a relatively low level of crime, it's probably a factor in their successful prison system
      - EliRivers 8y ago
        And their successful prison system is a factor in the relatively low level of crime.
        assblaster 8y ago
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
paulojean 8y ago
The problem to think in those `Apac`s as a better way to the prisional system in Brazil is that it cant be take in the whole country. It's easier to keep the desired inmate's behaviour in an Apac because they select who they want (so, they can avoid someone who might bring trouble, an option that the entire system doesn't has); another point is the inmate's fear in going back to a "normal" prison. I live in Brazil, and discussions related to Apac already happened in some groups that fight for humans right, and I've never seen one of them thinking in Apac as a solution to our prisional system.
- gnud 8y ago
  Even if you can't have Apac's for all prisoners, wouldn't it be a great idea to try to have it for a lot more prisoners, perhaps even for most?
  - paulojean 8y ago
    It does not looks like it would be possible to do this to the most of the prisioners. For example in 2014 we had a defict of 200k [1] vacancies, we dont even have the space needed to replicate the Apac to a high number of people [1] http://g1.globo.com/brasil/noticia/2014/01/brasil-tem-hoje-deficit-de-200-mil-vagas-no-sistema-prisional.html http://g1.globo.com/brasil/noticia/2014/01/brasil-tem-hoje-d...
- ihsw2 8y ago
  Why does the entire system need to be "fixed?" Imprisoning criminals are the #1 way to reduce crime. Enabling responsible individuals to escape that Hell is a good thing that is easy to accomplish, whereas teaching large swaths of the prison population to act responsibly is impossible.
  - dpark 8y ago
    Have you considered that perhaps prison shouldn’t be hell? To my knowledge there is no evidence that horrible prisons in any way reduce crime vs decent prisons. I believe there’s quite a bit of evidence in the other direction, and that prisons which emphasize learning life skills rather than surviving hell reduce recidivism.
jasonmaydie 8y ago
Everything is perfect with the absence of conflict. Throw conflict in the mix and it falls apart quite quickly.
jnordwick 8y ago
If this were done to the least violent, least likely to be a problem inmates, it would be largely white collar criminals. I wonder how people would feel about that given name liked Club Fed are already thrown around.
- jdc 8y ago
  How's that attitude been working out for them?
trisimix 8y ago
Great, too bad due process is a joke in Brazil.
- dvdhnt 8y ago
  Not disagreeing with you, I’m just American and uninformed. Can you elaborate?
  - matheusmoreira 8y ago
    It is horribly inefficient and takes way too long. Even if a judge decides something, people may simply appeal to a higher court. This can go on and on until they run out of either courts or money. I've read about legal cases that began in 2002 and only finished in 2013. It is likely that the defendant will be free during this time. Also, prison sentences are 30 years maximum. American legal system seems to move much faster. They apparently encourage people to make deals and bargains rather than risk legal defeat.

76 points by dvdhnt 8y ago

What a wonderful story. Nobody flees from love, indeed. This is an idea with tangible value. Not just for Brazil, either.

hutzlibu 8y ago
But they are evil! Why else would they be in prison in the first place so you must crush their twistes minds with every humilation possible and then force them by any means to become good humans again out of fear for more punishmant ... why change that wonderful, established system, that has proven to work so well?
pelasaco 8y ago
they have 60.000 murders/year. Please, there almost no one flees from a bullet.
raverbashing 8y ago
But (not) fleeing from discipline is not such a guaranteed win. This model is good for non-violent inmates, but it doesn't work for all cases.
- krespucular 8y ago
  The fact that it doesn't work in one sense (containing people) is the reason it might work in another sense (reforming people). If the majority of inmates are serious about reform then this will have a powerful '100th monkey' effect on new inmates.

jopsen 8y ago

Can't help but dream that private prisons could do like this and save money on guards, cooking, property, etc.. housing aggressive prisoners have got to be expensive, compared to housing non-aggressive ones. I guess that either (a) regulation mandates security / poor conditions, or (b) nobody is quite crazy enough to try and make money by disrupting the private prison business :)

jernfrost 8y ago
In Norway, we tend to follow a non-aggressive approach to prison and despite much higher standards than say in the US, the cost per prisoner isn't significantly higher. Prison guards in Norway are essentially university educated social workers. American prison guards from what I've read are essentially just guys with a stick. They just get a couple of weeks of training. Guards in Norway work closely with prisoners and do activities with them and get to know them. This leads to lower levels of aggression. I've seen accounts of other European visiting Norwegian prisons remarking how much more calm the atmosphere is. When you lock up people and treat them as animals you create anger, resentment and aggression which they take out on each other or the guards if given the opportunity. I believe this is a principle which applies to all walks of life including how you raise children. Children who live under strict regimes which are heavily focused on punishment don't act well. They easily become violent and lack self control. If there is always an overwhelming force present to punish every transgression you make, all you learn is to be behave when you are under threat. When that control is gone you have no ability to control yourself.
- assblaster 8y ago
  How do Norway prisons deal with formation of gangs, which are essentially small businesses that seek to "disrupt" the prison economy?
  - jasonmaydie 8y ago
    Norway has a relatively low level of crime, it's probably a factor in their successful prison system
    - EliRivers 8y ago
      And their successful prison system is a factor in the relatively low level of crime.
      - assblaster 8y ago

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

paulojean 8y ago

The problem to think in those `Apac`s as a better way to the prisional system in Brazil is that it cant be take in the whole country. It's easier to keep the desired inmate's behaviour in an Apac because they select who they want (so, they can avoid someone who might bring trouble, an option that the entire system doesn't has); another point is the inmate's fear in going back to a "normal" prison. I live in Brazil, and discussions related to Apac already happened in some groups that fight for humans right, and I've never seen one of them thinking in Apac as a solution to our prisional system.

gnud 8y ago
Even if you can't have Apac's for all prisoners, wouldn't it be a great idea to try to have it for a lot more prisoners, perhaps even for most?
- paulojean 8y ago
  It does not looks like it would be possible to do this to the most of the prisioners. For example in 2014 we had a defict of 200k [1] vacancies, we dont even have the space needed to replicate the Apac to a high number of people [1] http://g1.globo.com/brasil/noticia/2014/01/brasil-tem-hoje-deficit-de-200-mil-vagas-no-sistema-prisional.html http://g1.globo.com/brasil/noticia/2014/01/brasil-tem-hoje-d...
ihsw2 8y ago
Why does the entire system need to be "fixed?" Imprisoning criminals are the #1 way to reduce crime. Enabling responsible individuals to escape that Hell is a good thing that is easy to accomplish, whereas teaching large swaths of the prison population to act responsibly is impossible.
- dpark 8y ago
  Have you considered that perhaps prison shouldn’t be hell? To my knowledge there is no evidence that horrible prisons in any way reduce crime vs decent prisons. I believe there’s quite a bit of evidence in the other direction, and that prisons which emphasize learning life skills rather than surviving hell reduce recidivism.

jasonmaydie 8y ago

Everything is perfect with the absence of conflict. Throw conflict in the mix and it falls apart quite quickly.

jnordwick 8y ago

If this were done to the least violent, least likely to be a problem inmates, it would be largely white collar criminals. I wonder how people would feel about that given name liked Club Fed are already thrown around.

jdc 8y ago
How's that attitude been working out for them?

trisimix 8y ago

Great, too bad due process is a joke in Brazil.

dvdhnt 8y ago
Not disagreeing with you, I’m just American and uninformed. Can you elaborate?
- matheusmoreira 8y ago
  It is horribly inefficient and takes way too long. Even if a judge decides something, people may simply appeal to a higher court. This can go on and on until they run out of either courts or money. I've read about legal cases that began in 2002 and only finished in 2013. It is likely that the defendant will be free during this time. Also, prison sentences are 30 years maximum. American legal system seems to move much faster. They apparently encourage people to make deals and bargains rather than risk legal defeat.