11 ms·

Here, let me rephrase: the expensive part about car ownership is purchasing cars, not gas, insurance, or maintenance.

anoncoward111 8y ago
Agreed, but now that the problem has been identified, why do so many people continue to finance or lease new cars? Car maintenance isn't that scary if you have a steady income and buy something rational (90s japanese instead of 2000s range rover)
- maxerickson 8y ago
  Because they don't consider the total costs and $300 a month is "affordable" or whatever.
  - zip1234 8y ago
    I know people that lease just because they want a new car every three years and can afford the $3600/yr for that.
- bronco21016 8y ago
  I’ve noticed that many of my friends simply accept that leasing for $200-400/mo in perpetuity is simply easier than dealing with a car that begins to become unreliable. Humans are weird in that spending $1,500 on car repairs one time in 24 months just seems way more jarring than spending $300/mo but spending $0 on repairs.
  - kd5bjo 8y ago
    They’re paying extra to not have their routine interrupted; depending on what else is going on in their life, it may be the right decision. Money is a tool to do things you want, not a scorecard.
  - Anderkent 8y ago
    People are risk averse; predictable expenses are easier to plan around than unpredictable ones. What if you're unlucky and it breaks twice in a year? Or the first repair is bungled and you have to go to a different shop, and argue the first one into giving you your money back?
  - ddingus 8y ago
    For many, the larger sum is very painful.
- lotsofpulp 8y ago
  Car maintenance requires the most expensive thing of all, time. Plus tools, plus experience. Once you take apart something on your car, if you can't get it back together, you're out of luck. You also have to be physically strong and able to get to lug nuts and other rusted connections loose. I highly doubt most women can take tires off and lift them and put them back on, especially for SUV. I think oil and air filter changes can be done by most though, especially if they get a fumoto valve. I would hesitate to recommend brake jobs for most people though.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - vwcx 8y ago
    I highly doubt most men can take tires off and lift them and put them back on, too.
    - magicbuzz 8y ago
      I thought that was Bloke 101. Actually, the hardest part is getting the lugnuts off. When your tyres were fitted, they likely used air tools to put the nuts back on. I’ve found you always need to ensure you can remove them with the spare hand tool later - otherwise you may end up with a flat somewhere and be unable to remove the wheel.
      - lotsofpulp 8y ago
        Yep, I've sheared some tools trying to get them off. Being able to rent a car with air tools would be nice for DIY stuff. It would probably be too expensive insurance wise though.
      - ddingus 8y ago
        This is where you put a length of pipe in the car. Much easier, even for women and girls. All it takes is a couple feet to move the torque required into the lower end of human capability.
- aidos 8y ago
  I think that's a bit uncharitable. There's a far more rational reason which is that many people don't have all the money to pay upfront and finance makes it manageable and predictable. In terms of lease options, if all the maintenance / repairs are covered then, again, it kinda makes sense, right? You're effectively paying a bit more each month, but you know what you're in for and there's no chance of a massive unknown catastrophic failure breaking the bank. It's all well and good saying that car maintenance isn't scary, but as the owner of car that's started smoking — it's not much fun taking it to 5 mechanics, all of whom haven't managed to diagnose the issue. It's the same reason people have insurance.
  - pc86 8y ago
    Leasing is a very specific financial instrument, like balloon financing (which I think Mercedes is the only manufacturer that still offers), which is pretty overused. The "I don't want to worry about maintenance!" type of person would typically save money buying the same car on a 4 year loan and trading up every 4 or 5 years compared to leasing for whatever the optimal term is (typically 30-39 months, usually 36). You're not necessarily overpaying on leasing. It's just a math problem where a few of the variables (base MF, residual) are static, a few are easily negotiated (cap cost), and a few are less easily negotiated (dealer MF mark up).
- wycy 8y ago
  Is it really considered rational in 2018 to buy a car that's already 18 to 28 years old?
  - pc86 8y ago
    Not even remotely, but there is an /r/personalfinance type of mindset floating around that if you're doing anything other than paying $2,000 for a 2+ decade old Corolla or Civic, you're an idiot.
  - tadzik_ 8y ago
    Depending on how much you can live without it, I suppose, but old quality cars actually hold up really well. I bought a 1996 Mercedes-Benz E-class last year, it was 21 years old then. It cost me about 2300€ (with a set of winter tires), I did about 15k kilometers in it so far. Pretty much the only servicing I do on it is the non-critical stuff: sunroof, parking sensors etc, but aside of the „vanity stuff” it pretty much runs flawlessly for me. May just be survivor bias of course, but in any case if you don't need 100% reliability 24/7 (in which case you can always take an uber :)) I think it's a really viable choice. Plus buying a used car is afaik more environment friendly than buying a brand new Tesla or Prius or whatever.
    - magicbuzz 8y ago
      They can hold up really well. However you’ll find that generally the economy of a newer car is staggeringly better.
      - tadzik_ 8y ago
        Oh, absolutely; I can definitely feel the impact of the 12-15 l/100km ;) But since it's Poland, like seemingly half of the cars here this one too was converted into an LPG+Gas hybrid, halving the fuel costs.
- gambiting 8y ago
  Because eventually, you could just lease a new car and not worry about maintenance or warranty or your own safety anymore. My mum has a 2005 car which she continues running due to the reasoning of "why change the car if this one works" - and that's correct, but I added up all the repairs we did to it in 2017 and the parts + labour totaled about ~$6000 in that one year, and it looks like 2018 will at least match that. ~$6000/year gives you $500/month that could go towards a lease on a brand new car and then you don't have to worry about anything, instead of pumping money into a car that will eventually break down in such a way that fixing it will cost more than it's worth.
  - matwood 8y ago
    $12k over 2 years for maintenance seems extremely excessive. That can replace the whole engine in a small car. It could also mean the car never had any proper maintenance done (like oil changes), and now serious engine parts are having to be repaired. I have a '05 Tundra and just had to replace the entire ABS system, so while it was being worked on also did all of the belts, water pump, etc... and came in ~4k. There shouldn't be any maintenance except oil and maybe tires for the next 2-4 years.
    - gambiting 8y ago
      It's a Land Rover Discovery 3 - we had to have the whole undercarriage redone because it was getting some serious rust, so it had to be sand blasted and re-done from scratch, that alone was about $4000. Then we spent $1000 on a set of new summer tyres(winters will come next this year I suspect), and the A/C compressor seized up completely - that was about $1000 for the part + labour. This year we had to do the suspension maintenance, replace the brushings etc, that came to about $1500. Then the rear locking differential broke, it was about $2000 for a new one + labour. And just last week the car went into limp mode, the suspension lowered, the transmission wouldn't really shift - had to get the car towed to a LR garage. Turned out to be some tiny sensor, but diagnostics, plus part plus labour plus towing came to about $500. Then you have the annual maintenance, but that's not a lot compared to the rest. The car has about 200k miles on it and actually the engine runs absolutely fine, no issues there. Yes, I guess it's a very complicated car with loads of electronics that can go wrong, and when they do go wrong it's expensive. But it's not a far fetched idea that my mum would be better off with getting a brand new car which doesn't suffer from random issues where you have to get the car towed to the garage.
- SkyPuncher 8y ago
  > why do so many people continue to finance or lease new cars? Because I can finance it at an interest rate of something like 2.6%. That's stupid cheap.
- matwood 8y ago
  > why do so many people continue to finance When the money is nearly free (one of my cars still has a loan at 1.9%), cash is more valuable to me.
skrause 8y ago
But $11,783 per year? My new little Hyundai hatchback cost me $12,000 in 2010 and is now around 7.5 years old. So even if it was completely worthless by now (which it isn't) the depreciation couldn't have been more than $1600 per year. Maybe people should buy cheaper cars.
- ashelmire 8y ago
  I was thinking about this the other day, and it's really all about status. You don't buy a BMW because you think "this is a great deal and a great piece of engineering, what a great and practical use of my money!". You do it because you want people to know you have a BMW. Which I guess is great if you associate with the kinds of people that care about wasting money on perceived social status, but absolutely doesn't make sense if you care about making a smart financial decision.
  - MasterPI 8y ago
    It's not all just status. There are people that appreciate the handling and the performance they get driving a BMW. I bought a second hand BMW because I wanted a car that I'd enjoy driving, didn't care about the social status at all.
    - philliphaydon 8y ago
      > There are people that appreciate the handling and the performance they get driving a BMW. My brother was a panel beater and most of his friends mechanics, when growing up I was always told the worst car you could buy was a BMW, they were for people who like to think they have money, but more often than not those people are paying off the car, but it costs more to maintain the car than it does to buy it. Personally if I had the money for a BMW, there's plenty of other cars that are nicer, better performing, and better handling, than a BMW. But I would rather just buy a Toyota and drive it till i died. Those things are cheap and last forever.
bluGill 8y ago
That depends. 14 years ago I bought a brand new car. Even though I get 45mpg (real, EPA says I should get 41 highway), I've still spent more on fuel over the last 250,000 miles than everything else combined.

Agreed, but now that the problem has been identified, why do so many people continue to finance or lease new cars? Car maintenance isn't that scary if you have a steady income and buy something rational (90s japanese instead of 2000s range rover)

maxerickson 8y ago
Because they don't consider the total costs and $300 a month is "affordable" or whatever.
- zip1234 8y ago
  I know people that lease just because they want a new car every three years and can afford the $3600/yr for that.
bronco21016 8y ago
I’ve noticed that many of my friends simply accept that leasing for $200-400/mo in perpetuity is simply easier than dealing with a car that begins to become unreliable. Humans are weird in that spending $1,500 on car repairs one time in 24 months just seems way more jarring than spending $300/mo but spending $0 on repairs.
- kd5bjo 8y ago
  They’re paying extra to not have their routine interrupted; depending on what else is going on in their life, it may be the right decision. Money is a tool to do things you want, not a scorecard.
- Anderkent 8y ago
  People are risk averse; predictable expenses are easier to plan around than unpredictable ones. What if you're unlucky and it breaks twice in a year? Or the first repair is bungled and you have to go to a different shop, and argue the first one into giving you your money back?
- ddingus 8y ago
  For many, the larger sum is very painful.
lotsofpulp 8y ago
Car maintenance requires the most expensive thing of all, time. Plus tools, plus experience. Once you take apart something on your car, if you can't get it back together, you're out of luck. You also have to be physically strong and able to get to lug nuts and other rusted connections loose. I highly doubt most women can take tires off and lift them and put them back on, especially for SUV. I think oil and air filter changes can be done by most though, especially if they get a fumoto valve. I would hesitate to recommend brake jobs for most people though.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- vwcx 8y ago
  I highly doubt most men can take tires off and lift them and put them back on, too.
  - magicbuzz 8y ago
    I thought that was Bloke 101. Actually, the hardest part is getting the lugnuts off. When your tyres were fitted, they likely used air tools to put the nuts back on. I’ve found you always need to ensure you can remove them with the spare hand tool later - otherwise you may end up with a flat somewhere and be unable to remove the wheel.
    - lotsofpulp 8y ago
      Yep, I've sheared some tools trying to get them off. Being able to rent a car with air tools would be nice for DIY stuff. It would probably be too expensive insurance wise though.
    - ddingus 8y ago
      This is where you put a length of pipe in the car. Much easier, even for women and girls. All it takes is a couple feet to move the torque required into the lower end of human capability.
aidos 8y ago
I think that's a bit uncharitable. There's a far more rational reason which is that many people don't have all the money to pay upfront and finance makes it manageable and predictable. In terms of lease options, if all the maintenance / repairs are covered then, again, it kinda makes sense, right? You're effectively paying a bit more each month, but you know what you're in for and there's no chance of a massive unknown catastrophic failure breaking the bank. It's all well and good saying that car maintenance isn't scary, but as the owner of car that's started smoking — it's not much fun taking it to 5 mechanics, all of whom haven't managed to diagnose the issue. It's the same reason people have insurance.
- pc86 8y ago
  Leasing is a very specific financial instrument, like balloon financing (which I think Mercedes is the only manufacturer that still offers), which is pretty overused. The "I don't want to worry about maintenance!" type of person would typically save money buying the same car on a 4 year loan and trading up every 4 or 5 years compared to leasing for whatever the optimal term is (typically 30-39 months, usually 36). You're not necessarily overpaying on leasing. It's just a math problem where a few of the variables (base MF, residual) are static, a few are easily negotiated (cap cost), and a few are less easily negotiated (dealer MF mark up).
wycy 8y ago
Is it really considered rational in 2018 to buy a car that's already 18 to 28 years old?
- pc86 8y ago
  Not even remotely, but there is an /r/personalfinance type of mindset floating around that if you're doing anything other than paying $2,000 for a 2+ decade old Corolla or Civic, you're an idiot.
- tadzik_ 8y ago
  Depending on how much you can live without it, I suppose, but old quality cars actually hold up really well. I bought a 1996 Mercedes-Benz E-class last year, it was 21 years old then. It cost me about 2300€ (with a set of winter tires), I did about 15k kilometers in it so far. Pretty much the only servicing I do on it is the non-critical stuff: sunroof, parking sensors etc, but aside of the „vanity stuff” it pretty much runs flawlessly for me. May just be survivor bias of course, but in any case if you don't need 100% reliability 24/7 (in which case you can always take an uber :)) I think it's a really viable choice. Plus buying a used car is afaik more environment friendly than buying a brand new Tesla or Prius or whatever.
  - magicbuzz 8y ago
    They can hold up really well. However you’ll find that generally the economy of a newer car is staggeringly better.
    - tadzik_ 8y ago
      Oh, absolutely; I can definitely feel the impact of the 12-15 l/100km ;) But since it's Poland, like seemingly half of the cars here this one too was converted into an LPG+Gas hybrid, halving the fuel costs.
gambiting 8y ago
Because eventually, you could just lease a new car and not worry about maintenance or warranty or your own safety anymore. My mum has a 2005 car which she continues running due to the reasoning of "why change the car if this one works" - and that's correct, but I added up all the repairs we did to it in 2017 and the parts + labour totaled about ~$6000 in that one year, and it looks like 2018 will at least match that. ~$6000/year gives you $500/month that could go towards a lease on a brand new car and then you don't have to worry about anything, instead of pumping money into a car that will eventually break down in such a way that fixing it will cost more than it's worth.
- matwood 8y ago
  $12k over 2 years for maintenance seems extremely excessive. That can replace the whole engine in a small car. It could also mean the car never had any proper maintenance done (like oil changes), and now serious engine parts are having to be repaired. I have a '05 Tundra and just had to replace the entire ABS system, so while it was being worked on also did all of the belts, water pump, etc... and came in ~4k. There shouldn't be any maintenance except oil and maybe tires for the next 2-4 years.
  - gambiting 8y ago
    It's a Land Rover Discovery 3 - we had to have the whole undercarriage redone because it was getting some serious rust, so it had to be sand blasted and re-done from scratch, that alone was about $4000. Then we spent $1000 on a set of new summer tyres(winters will come next this year I suspect), and the A/C compressor seized up completely - that was about $1000 for the part + labour. This year we had to do the suspension maintenance, replace the brushings etc, that came to about $1500. Then the rear locking differential broke, it was about $2000 for a new one + labour. And just last week the car went into limp mode, the suspension lowered, the transmission wouldn't really shift - had to get the car towed to a LR garage. Turned out to be some tiny sensor, but diagnostics, plus part plus labour plus towing came to about $500. Then you have the annual maintenance, but that's not a lot compared to the rest. The car has about 200k miles on it and actually the engine runs absolutely fine, no issues there. Yes, I guess it's a very complicated car with loads of electronics that can go wrong, and when they do go wrong it's expensive. But it's not a far fetched idea that my mum would be better off with getting a brand new car which doesn't suffer from random issues where you have to get the car towed to the garage.
SkyPuncher 8y ago
> why do so many people continue to finance or lease new cars? Because I can finance it at an interest rate of something like 2.6%. That's stupid cheap.
matwood 8y ago
> why do so many people continue to finance When the money is nearly free (one of my cars still has a loan at 1.9%), cash is more valuable to me.

skrause 8y ago

But $11,783 per year? My new little Hyundai hatchback cost me $12,000 in 2010 and is now around 7.5 years old. So even if it was completely worthless by now (which it isn't) the depreciation couldn't have been more than $1600 per year. Maybe people should buy cheaper cars.

ashelmire 8y ago
I was thinking about this the other day, and it's really all about status. You don't buy a BMW because you think "this is a great deal and a great piece of engineering, what a great and practical use of my money!". You do it because you want people to know you have a BMW. Which I guess is great if you associate with the kinds of people that care about wasting money on perceived social status, but absolutely doesn't make sense if you care about making a smart financial decision.
- MasterPI 8y ago
  It's not all just status. There are people that appreciate the handling and the performance they get driving a BMW. I bought a second hand BMW because I wanted a car that I'd enjoy driving, didn't care about the social status at all.
  - philliphaydon 8y ago
    > There are people that appreciate the handling and the performance they get driving a BMW. My brother was a panel beater and most of his friends mechanics, when growing up I was always told the worst car you could buy was a BMW, they were for people who like to think they have money, but more often than not those people are paying off the car, but it costs more to maintain the car than it does to buy it. Personally if I had the money for a BMW, there's plenty of other cars that are nicer, better performing, and better handling, than a BMW. But I would rather just buy a Toyota and drive it till i died. Those things are cheap and last forever.

bluGill 8y ago

That depends. 14 years ago I bought a brand new car. Even though I get 45mpg (real, EPA says I should get 41 highway), I've still spent more on fuel over the last 250,000 miles than everything else combined.