28 ms·

Getting 1Password 7 ready for the Mac App Store

364 points by okket 8y ago

waterphone 8y ago
…but they will still be selling individual non-subscription licenses through their own website, so anyone who wants to avoid a subscription can still do so.
- rcarmo 8y ago
  Still, this is a trend I will have nothing to do with if at all possible. And besides subscriptions, version 7 will only sync using their back-end, which is not acceptable for me. On one hand, password managers in browsers are becoming nearly good enough to cover for 80% of my use cases, and most of the other 20% boil down to convenience (ease of pasting, updating, etc.) I don't like the idea of being forced to move to a subscription on my Mac and on iOS for diminishing returns in feature improvements -- and I've been using 1Password for many years now, so the need to finance new features is something that I understand but have seen little return from. By all means ensure you can sustain revenue, but beware of inflated subscription prices. (I've been keeping tabs on alternatives for a while now, so I will likely not upgrade to 1Password 7)
  - Spooky23 8y ago
    Anyone making software wants Abobe/Microsoft margins and enterprise like recurring revenue for their random product. At least in the case of 1password the rate isn’t usurious, but the biggest problem they have is due to a business decision to make the product dependent on a SaaS-like service delivery model.
    - smaddox 8y ago
      If it's cloud-based sync, then a subscription model makes sense, but I've yet to find a subscription price that is in line with what I think is reasonable (~$2 / month) for the service.
      - daveFNbuck 8y ago
        LastPass is $2/month.
      - Fnoord 8y ago
        Bitwarden is $10 per year (if you use the premium features such as 2FA). You can also self-host.
  - tadasv 8y ago
    What alternatives do you have in mind? I was thinking the same, but haven't done much research yet. I definitely want to have more control over my passwords.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - chiefalchemist 8y ago
      I'm not sure what your criteria are but I've been using LastPass (Enterprise) with 2FA (Yubikey) for a couple years now. Aside from the Yubikey, the key benefit is I can share a folder with someone using the free version. It's not cheap but it works and afaik it's secure (esp with the Yubi).
      - roustem 8y ago
        1Password Family accounts have support for free guest accounts that can be used to share information with other people without requiring them to purchase.
  - tzs 8y ago
    > And besides subscriptions, version 7 will only sync using their back-end, which is not acceptable for me. What do you mean by "only sync using their back-end"?
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - pletnes 8y ago
      Older versions could sync with e.g. Dropbox. So to get your passwords, someone would have to break into dropbox and then into your encrypted vault.
      - tzs 8y ago
        Same with current versions, except on Windows. On Windows, 1Password 6 lost that ability, I believe. It's coming back with 1Password 7 on Windows.
  - yladiz 8y ago
    > version 7 will only sync using their back-end, which is not acceptable for me Are you sure about this? My understanding is that they will support other places to sync, like iCloud, as in previous versions.
  - akerl_ 8y ago
    I am using 1Password 7 right now and have several local vaults and several vaults that are synced via Dropbox, so I'm not sure what you mean.
  - xoa 8y ago
    >And besides subscriptions, version 7 will only sync using their back-end, which is not acceptable for me. What. I'm using 1Password 7 with a standalone license. I installed the beta, paid the $40 it cost for a license, and it works fine with iCloud and Dropbox same as always, I moved right from 1Password 4 and the only change I did was to purposefully force a resync so that all shared keychains would be updated from the ancient format to the newer one (if you were on 1P6 that wouldn't be necessary). I'm not a fan of their subscription efforts because I think it's actively subtracted from what they could have done for the standalone version, and I don't think they've been fully honest about it which absolutely rankles. They talk big about benefits but they don't actually acknowledge costs or the profit motive. Even so there is a really oddly high load of objectively, trivially disproved FUD swirling around these HN articles about them now and I don't fully understand why.
preek 8y ago
Good timing that I moved all my passwords from 1Password to Emacs and GPG one year ago. It’s a pity; I’ve been a very happy customer for a long time, had licenses for multiple machines and was happy enough to pay for the updates. But my data shall be my data, again. I’m not paying for an app that I regularly have to buy an upgrade for and which doesn’t give me the opportunity to hold my data locally after explicitly having this as a selling proposition for many years.
- micv 8y ago
  They're still selling standalone versions for MacOS & Windows that run off local storage. Doesn't seem like they're doing multi-OS license bundles anymore, though, so it's gonna run expensive if you use more than one OS.
  - bwoodruff 8y ago
    This is accurate. In general / on average standalone vaults require more support, and the price of licensing compared to subscription pricing reflects that. Ben Woodruff AgileBits
- shortoncash 8y ago
  Could you comment on your emacs setup? I see a few threads on this from Google, but just curious what your setup is and maybe some tidbits about the pros and cons of this kind of setup. Thanks in advance.
- akerl_ 8y ago
  People keep bringing this up, and it feels like a major failure of Agilebits marketing approach. The subscription service changes the frequency at which you pay Agilebits; it does not mandate how you store your data. 1Password 7 continues to allow all the kinds of local/Dropbox/etc vaults that prior versions allowed. If somebody at Agilebits is reading this thread: look around at these comments. The lack of clear information about local storage in the subscription model is causing massive levels of customer concern.
  - 8y ago
spv 8y ago
I have been using Bitwarden for some time now. It’s an open source password manager. There are apps for all major platforms and extensions to all major browsers. Checkout https://bitwarden.com/ https://bitwarden.com/
- ringshall 8y ago
  To be precise, their base software is Free software, licensed under the AGPLv3. The also distribute non-Free (and non-Open Source, and non-gratis) software. Their base software has an artificial limit in terms of number of users and number of 'collections', which goes contrary to the ethics of Free software.
  - mitchty 8y ago
    Boo, I was looking for something that had a cli and integrated with every browser as well as had an ios app. I've not looked again recently but lastpass is the only thing I've found that fits those bills.
    - xxkylexx 8y ago
      - https://github.com/bitwarden/browser https://github.com/bitwarden/browser - https://github.com/bitwarden/cli https://github.com/bitwarden/cli
      - mitchty 8y ago
        I saw all that but it looks like you've got to pay a monthly fee for full access for their cloud storage. Not sure its worth the hassle of migrating to in this case.
        mitchty 8y ago
        Asked my buddy what he was using and he pointed me to this: https://www.enpass.io https://www.enpass.io Seems to fit the bill a bit better. And might mean $12/year less though thats not a huge problem.
drivingmenuts 8y ago
I'm glad they're at least offering non-subscription licenses. I hate feeling like I'm having to buy the software over and over again, just to get security updates. While 1Password works better than the rest of the pack, they're not exactly a fountain of new, needed features.
- mtkd 8y ago
  I've used 1password since 2010 when I paid $69.95 for a family license. It seems to need upgrading for each new version of OSX - but I still only use the features now that I used in 2010.
nsarafa 8y ago
I lost faith in 1Password when they forced me into the subscription model despite paying full price for the product years ago
- chorsestudios 8y ago
  Came here to say this. I lost a lot of customer loyalty for 1Password after they did this to me. Unless I missed it, no mention of the price of version 7 in the blog post.
  - preya2k 8y ago
    They announced a price for the windows version. It will be $65, and you get a $25 discount if you've been using the beta version. I assume Mac licenses will cost the same. Source: https://blog.agilebits.com/2018/03/20/introducing-1password-7-beta-for-windows/ https://blog.agilebits.com/2018/03/20/introducing-1password-...
- acdha 8y ago
  How did they force you into the subscription model?
  - bdcravens 8y ago
    This. You can still use it with local vaults or sync with something like Dropbox.
    - maxgee 8y ago
      Not on windows.
      - MrBMT 8y ago
        1Password 7 re-adds local vault support to Windows for standalone license users at the very least. Not sure about subscription users... as there seems to be conflicting information about this.
eecc 8y ago
I’m very happy with Safari and the macOS keychain app. Indeed if apple allowed access to un-sandboxed apps I’d be happy to share with Chrome
greggarious 8y ago
I've been using KeepassXC (KeePass w/ macOS GUI elements) and enjoying it. It's a little simple (you just copy and paste the PW). It doesn't do fancy autofill but there's support for pretty much every OS. (I use Spideroak to sync the DB across devices)
- NMDaniel 8y ago
  KeepassXC does have a browser extension for Firefox & Chrome. I use Syncthing to sync it among devices, it's open source and fairly simple to use(compared to other DIY cloud apps)
  - greggarious 8y ago
    > KeepassXC does have a browser extension for Firefox & Chrome. Yeah, but IIRC it doesn't on iOS? I dunno, it hasn't been a big pain point. My solution has to use the Firefox password manager for low value things (like Hacker News), and manually c/p for the higher value (bank, retirement account, etc). (Maybe I'm overly paranoid but I don't like to put high value passwords into the cloud)
- tajen 8y ago
  Guys, why not Keychain, the default password manager of macOS?
  - pvg 8y ago
    iCloud Keychain is Safari-only.
    - ben_w 8y ago
      Not any more. I can access keychain passwords in Chrome on iOS.
      - pvg 8y ago
        It's Safari-only on macOS, as far as I know. It does work with iOS apps and it doesn't work on Windows. It can't replace a password manager unless you use Safari on macOS as your primary browser.
drej 8y ago
I honestly can’t remember when I last paid for 1Password, yet I use it on my Mac and iOS devices (since 2011 it seems!). It never prompts me, it just works. I don’t follow the pricing policy changes, the only thing I know is I don’t want a subscription. I just want to pay for this great piece of software. So I hope this just means I’ll shell out $50 or so and be done for a few years? If so, then great.
- Bud 8y ago
  It doesn't mean that, they are aggressively making sure it will never mean that again, and it definitely won't be fifty bucks for a few years. (It's $36/yr.)
  - pvg 8y ago
    You can buy 1Password 7 standalone right now.
    - bdcravens 8y ago
      Where is that information on their website?
      - pvg 8y ago
        Is this supposed to be a rebuttal to something or do you actually need help finding it?
        durkie 8y ago
        I'm interested in where it is. I have recommended 1Password to friends saying that I had heard standalone version was still available, but I am unable to find it on their site.
        pvg 8y ago
        https://blog.agilebits.com/2018/03/28/the-1password-7-beta-for-mac-is-lit-and-you-can-be-too/ https://blog.agilebits.com/2018/03/28/the-1password-7-beta-f... There's also a Windows version now.
awesomepeter 8y ago
An alternative which lets you host your data is Enpass. I've been using it but I'm not sure how secure it really is.
- sigzero 8y ago
  > I've been using it but I'm not sure how secure it really is. Then why use it? That seems like an important detail for a password manager.
cygned 8y ago
I really like 1Password, it has been my daily driver for years. The creators gifted me versions for macOS and iOS years ago, so I never had to pay for it - which I would have done happily and, in fact, just recently did. But the push to the cloud versions gives me headache. I don’t want to sync using their cloud - I actually sync using a WiFi server. While it’s (still) possible to obtain the standalone versions, it’s difficult to find them. And I expect that in a few years, they’ll be gone completely. I am looking into Bitwarden at the moment as a self-hosted alternative but I haven’t decided yet.
- akerl_ 8y ago
  It's worth noting (and not super obvious because of their marketing) that "getting a subscription" and "using their cloud sync" are not a mutual requirement. You can pay via subscription and continue using local/Dropbox/etc vaults. This part was super confusing to me until I dug deeper when a friend upgraded. So the primary impact of switching from standalone license to subscription, if you're planning on using 1Password for a while, is that instead of paying a larger chunk of money every so often when they drop a new major version, you move to paying a flat couple bucks a month or larger chunk per year.
  - cygned 8y ago
    Thanks for pointing that out, that was, indeed, not clear to me either. But I expect this will change at some point, for the sake of simplicity for end users. Giving up security for convenience.
    - akerl_ 8y ago
      I doubt that, personally, because of exactly the reasons you and others are noting in this thread. Especially in a world where they successfully convince everybody to pay a monthly subscription, the effect of losing every user who wants local vaults would be an immediate visible blow to their revenue stream. Their goal in moving to subscription services seems less driven by simplicity and more with making that revenue stream more predictable. But whoever runs the marketing side of the house decided the best way to pitch the change was by saying how great the cloud hosting was, and looking around at these comments I hope they realize their error.
mychael 8y ago
1Password does not care about loyal users who have been there since the beginning. They care about getting new subscriptions. Fair enough, I'll just take my business elsewhere.
- bdcravens 8y ago
  How often did you upgrade?
- pier25 8y ago
  Yeah that's what I did too.
- bwoodruff 8y ago
  I’m sorry we’ve made you feel that way. What is it that causes these feelings for you? I certainly won’t deny that we feel strongly that for the vast majority of customers membership is going to provide the best experience, and so that is primarily what we talk about. But we’ve done a fair bit of work to keep standalone vaults and licensing. Ben Woodruff AgileBits
PakG1 8y ago
With all these subscription-only apps that are proliferating, I am curious how many enterprising app developers would be interested in making and marketing "cloudless" apps that rely on up-front high prices for revenue, but neverending free updates (mostly bug fixes, I would hope). With GDPR, this seems like it would be actually be easier to deliver. Of course growth numbers may suck, given how hard it is to make it for any app these days. Long-term growth would probably actually not be sustainable because if it blows up, there is no additional revenue down the road from lack of subscription, and also no network effects to power exponential growth in terms of market share. As far as I can tell, if you're not going to do subscription, there's no way to force users to pay to upgrade to a new version (new features) in the Apple App Store, not sure about Google Play. Your only option is to maybe create a new separate app that's able to import data from the old app, but that seems tacky to me. So, this really wouldn't be a big long-term play at all. But I imagine that there must be short-term markets out there willing to pay for apps that don't keep their data and usage hostage. I'm myself thinking of making an app like this for budget tracking, just because I haven't found any out there these days that don't require neverending subscriptions and also fit my unique needs. Cloudless is also fine for me, as my phone is storage enough, or if it isn't enough, maybe use my iCloud storage, Dropbox storage, Google Drive, OneDrive, etc for holding the data? Besides that, it'll finally give me the kick in the behind I need to finally learn Swift, which I've been meaning to do for a while. Alas, I imagine cost of customer acquisition may be too high to make even a short-term profit. So... would this just be a small project for me to prove I can learn Swift and show future employers that I can make smartphone apps too? Or is there actually a real business here and in so many other niches because some people hate being locked into subscription fees? Curious if anyone else has some thoughts.
- codetrotter 8y ago
  > I'm myself thinking of making an app like this for budget tracking, just because I haven't found any out there these days that don't require neverending subscriptions and also fit my unique needs. Did you try GnuCash? It's not user friendly but a friend of mine swears by it. https://www.gnucash.org/ https://www.gnucash.org/
  - 8y ago
alceta 8y ago
As a long time 1password user (at least since 2009), I switched to Bitwarden late last year and did not regret it.
senthilnayagam 8y ago
I did not pay for a subscription software, I bought a password manager which stored password locally. I also don't want to pay for a upgrade just because apple upgraded the OS. I now only buy mac software on Mac App Store. Apps which I have not renewed include 1password, screenflow, textmate, vmware Fusion, Paid Products I wish were on Mac App Store with free updates. Sublime, Paragon NTFS , printopia
- whitepoplar 8y ago
  But TextMate isn't a subscription, is it?
- dingo_bat 8y ago
  So you want perpetual free updates? I think your expectations might be a tad unrealistic.
  - Casseres 8y ago
    It should be built into the initial price. And perpetual is unrealistic, but 10 years is not. Microsoft provides 5 years of Mainstream Support and 5 years of Extended Support at no additional cost (cost is built into the initial license fee). Heck, I would more trust software that says 10 years of garunteed support rather than lifetime support. Too many companies fudge the meaning of "lifetime", and 10 years blows Google's 2 + 1 years of Android support out of the water.
    - nqzero 8y ago
      there's a huge difference between supporting the version that they sold you for a specific version of ios and writing a new version to work with future changes to ios (which they don't in any way control)
      - josteink 8y ago
        Not really. As an iOS user I am forced to update the os for software to be supported and receive new security updates. That Apple makes previous versions of my installed software incompatible when I do upgrade should not be my problem. (That said, I agree there is a problem here, and I think Apple should ultimately be the one who fixes it)
bpicolo 8y ago
While I could understand people being upset about this, I pay for a 1password family subscription. It really is a terrific investment. As far as subscription services go it's about the best bang for my buck that I get. A sustainable service model is important for something I rely on so much - especially something that needs to keep on security lockdown. Also makes it easy for the family to share hulu, netflix, whatnot.
- SirensOfTitan 8y ago
  I just switched over as a long time standalone user, and I completely agree. The 1Password Families subscription provides a tremendous amount of value and the product just keeps getting better.
- ajmurmann 8y ago
  What value does it provide beyond the old family license pack + syncing of shared vaults via free Dropbox tier?
  - bpicolo 8y ago
    Probably nothing other than ease of use, but the old model isn't part of the equation for me. 5 bucks a month for my whole family to have good password security practices, and for 1password to sustain continuous updates, is a great deal.
    - crankylinuxuser 8y ago
      Something as critical as "password infrastructure" should absolutely never be a subscription model. Pay software, sure. But by no means should anybody other than you have the ability to refuse access, especially some company where you are nothing but a $5/month number. I would be more forgiving if the subscription was for value-added features, like dynamic syncing, or remote encrypted storage. But it ain't.
      - snuxoll 8y ago
hs86 8y ago
I hate subscription models but with 1PW 7 I would have to pay +40 € for each the Mac and the Windows version and still have not access to new features like the travel mode or the CLI client. AgileBits seems to be an honest company and they went the extra mile to backport some new features (TOTP) to their dated 1PW 4 codebase. I will give them the benefit of the doubt and try their subscription and should they ever turn 'evil', I know that alternatives like Bitwarden or Enpass are available and ready to import my 1PW vault.
- roustem 8y ago
  Thank you, @hs86. We will not let you down!
intrasight 8y ago
Could someone chime in with a TL;DR on what this thing does?
xoa 8y ago
I at least partly blame Apple and the MAS being such piece of shit for accelerating some of the sub trends we're seeing on the Mac now. It's really such a genuine shame, because in principle the MAS really could be an excellent idea, a way to unify and simplify a pain point of Mac use and boost security at a few levels without a need to alienate anyone or not support anything. Instead Apple had to make it an artificially pointlessly limited collection of tradeoffs and mediocrity. In particular AgileBits is right about the missing upgrade pricing system really being a bummer. To this day Apple's decision to remove that remains one of the most perplexing decisions of anything they did with the MAS (or iOS App Store for that matter). The basic idea of paying just for marginal value added since original purchase whereas new purchasers are paying for the whole package from zero is an efficient, sensible and sustainable one that has supported the software industry well since the very beginning. Ongoing support of software costs money, particularly when Apple has made it another principle of theirs to be aggressive about pushing the platform forward vs backwards compatibility. No upgrades (or volume discounts or anything else) is still such a mind blowingly stupid decision in every respect. It's forced developers to make some tough choices unnecessarily, and IAP and subs are one way to go at it.
- danieldk 8y ago
  I at least partly blame Apple and the MAS being such piece of shit for accelerating some of the sub trends we're seeing on the Mac now. It's really such a genuine shame, because in principle the MAS really could be an excellent idea, a way to unify and simplify a pain point of Mac use and boost security at a few levels without a need to alienate anyone or not support anything. I agree. Many of the applications that have moved out of the app store (e.g. Dash) have also ditched sandboxing. Going back to the situation where every application can read your whole home directory is a large regression. (Of course, non-MAS apps can also be sandboxed, but many developers do not do it.)
  - bwoodruff 8y ago
    1Password 7 for Mac is sandboxed, regardless of where you download it from. Ben Wooodruff AgileBits
- 8y ago
AdmiralAsshat 8y ago
So remember when 1Password claimed it was superior to LastPass for only requiring you to pay a one-time fee and not storing all of your stuff in the cloud? Good times.
- shinratdr 8y ago
  To be fair, it still does all that stuff. I get that these moves make people nervous, and rightfully so. But as it stands every version of 1Password in active development (not including maintenance mode): * Can be licensed standalone. * Supports local & Dropbox vaults. * Was released within the last year, actively supporting those features. The only feature they’ve actually killed off (by not baking into future clients) is WLAN sync. This is a regression for some, but personally I always found it super impractical. I agree that how they are going about this doesn’t inspire confidence that these features will remain in the product, but to some extent it does. While they downplay the hell out of it, 1Password 6 for Windows was a ground up rewrite that ditched local vaults and standalone licensing. Those features were reintroduced in 1Password 7 for Windows, which is a pretty big backtrack for them and requires renewed development effort. AgileBits doesn’t always make the right decision. They develop opinionated software, like most good developers. However, just like the MAS-only decision they made with 1Password 4 and stood by for some time, eventually they do right by their customers. 1Password 7 for Windows is a great example of that. As much as they would love to go cloud only, they heard the feedback and brought back those two key features. At this point, I can’t expect much more than that.
  - curun1r 8y ago
    > every version of 1Password in active development...Can be licensed standalone This is incorrect. The command line client is subscription-only.
    - shinratdr 8y ago
      Fair enough, I wasn’t familiar with this client.
    - bwoodruff 8y ago
0culus 8y ago
Although it's been said that they will continue supporting licenses through their website, they have made this feature _extremely_ difficult to find ever since introducing subscriptions. I've been a loyal user of 1Password for a long time, and I think it's great software. I use it on both my Macs, as well as on my iOS devices. However, hiding the non-subscription feature is silly. I do not wish to add yet another subscription (especially something so crucial as my what manages my passwords; I need [edit] it to work, no questions asked), and I would be more than happy to purchase a new license for 1Password 7.
- shinratdr 8y ago
  I agree they are burying the hell out of it, but as it stands licenses for 1Password 7 (which is still in beta on Mac & Windows) can only be purchased from within the client, as they want to test the order flow which was rebuilt in this version. The Windows version of 1Password 7 still can’t be licensed, they haven’t built that part yet. The Mac version however can be purchased, and if you plan on sticking with it I would do so now, as the price will be much higher in the near future. Right now it’s being offered at 50% off.
  - 0culus 8y ago
    Where is it on their website? I haven't been able to find it at all.
    - mminer 8y ago
      They mention the discount in this blog post: https://blog.agilebits.com/2018/03/28/the-1password-7-beta-for-mac-is-lit-and-you-can-be-too/ https://blog.agilebits.com/2018/03/28/the-1password-7-beta-f... "Licenses will be available for $64.99 when we launch later this year, but are available now for only $39.99."
    - jffry 8y ago
      I just went through this - there's a tiny "downloads" link at the bottom of their page that takes you to https://1password.com/downloads/ https://1password.com/downloads/ I just went through this. Install v7, open it, unlock your vault, and it'll prompt you to try a subscription, with a tiny option below to just buy a license.
robteix 8y ago
I have a family subscription of 1PW. I can easily share some password with my wife and our daughter is getting used to using a password manager before she's 10. I totally empathize with those who refuse to use cloud/subscription services as, let's face it, there are a lot of bad actors doing crappy things with our data. But for me 1Password seems like a small, honest company providing great quality service and software. I'm a happy customer.
- gergles 8y ago
  > But for me 1Password seems like a small, honest company providing great quality service and software. Yes, I imagine because they have carefully crafted that image through blog posts and impression management. They have over 70 employees to write a password manager. 70!
  - wyclif 8y ago
    But that's a bit specious. There are not 70 software developers at AgileBits engaged in writing the code for the product. A business like AgileBits requires a lot more overhead than just software engineering.
  - roustem 8y ago
    We are actually more than 100 people now. A big part of our team is dedicated to customer support. After all there are over 15 mln 1Password users and we get several thousand emails per day. There are over 30,000 businesses using 1Password. We have designer and development teams for Mac/iOS (Objective-C, Swift), Windows (C#, .NET), Android (Java, Kotlin), browser extensions (JavaScript), 1Password server (Go), 1Password web client (TypeScript, ReactJS), command-line client (Go), SCIM/LDAP integration (Go, Docker, Kubernetes), and a ton of other smaller projects. There is a Security Team that does security reviews, works with BugCrowd researchers, and does SOC 2 compliance. DevOps team works with AWS and Google Cloud. We want to do more. We are hiring :)
gaius 8y ago
Stupid question: what does this do that iCloud Keychain doesn’t do?
- SomeHacker44 8y ago
  Among other things: TOTP.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- y_molodtsov 8y ago
  iCloud Keychain is pretty good, but it tragically fails in the followings cases: * Any browser other than Safari. * Apps that MacOS/iOS don't parse for password fields for some reasons so you can't generate a password right there — and it's a huge pain to add them manually, practically impossible on iOS. * Cloud access (if you need your account and don't have any of your devices). Your Keychain is in the iCloud, but you can't access it from icloud.com So Apple could easily make it much better but they haven't.
- roustem 8y ago
  Multiple browsers, Windows, Linux, Chromebooks, encrypted documents and other item types, sharing, travel mode, item history, watchtower (security audit), ...
sgeisenh 8y ago
This just reminds me how excited I am for passwords to be replaced. We shouldn't need a third party application as an authentication shim for every service that we use. The high lock-in on password managers is also unnerving.
krautsourced 8y ago
After using (and loving and having paid for) 1P for years, I moved over to Enpass a year or so ago. Their clients are not as good as 1P's, but I simply neither want a subscription based service (what happens if they are bought / go under), nor do I want my passwords to reside on their servers (encrypted or not).
makecheck 8y ago
There are at least two elements to software maintenance: one is adding truly new features, and the other is making stupid changes just to keep old features working as they always did (often due to platform or hardware changes, especially with Apple!). I see Apple coughing up none of the costs that they create by regularly fiddling with their platforms and hardware in breaking ways, yet that is a big reason why software can’t be sensibly “bought once”. Now they’ve come up with a scheme where they not only don’t give developers discounts for maintaining software but actually take yet another cut. Don’t judge developers too harshly.
- Pulcinella 8y ago
  Yes. I feel that, because of the currently constantly changing nature of hardware and software platforms, subscriptions are going to be the only way of sustaining a business. It’s no longer even software as a service, but software IS a service. The only exceptions are situations where hardware and platforms change slowly or not at all. e.g. Single player video games (and even that is largely consoles), certain kinds of embedded, etc. People are already becoming frustrated with all the subscriptions they have, though. People are “fine” with paying to maintain things like their home and car. The problem with software is that it doesn’t really “break” from use. Updating the platform and hardware around the software is what can break it. It would be like the pipes in your home are indestructible and never burst in winter, but they can explode when building codes update or the water treatment plant changes it’s equipment.
  - spronkey 8y ago
    I hope that it's only a matter of time before people start turning their pitchforks at Apple, Microsoft, maybe Google et al who are the perpetrators of the majority of this platform fiddling that stops software from working.
- Mister_Snuggles 8y ago
  > There are at least two elements to software maintenance: one is adding truly new features, and the other is making stupid changes just to keep old features working as they always did (often due to platform or hardware changes, especially with Apple!). I'm OK with the model that VMware is using, at least on the Mac. You buy version X, you have version X. Version X gets updates for some amount of time. Eventually, a Mac OS upgrade makes version X no longer work, so you have to pay an upgrade price to upgrade to version Y. There is no subscription, but there is regular income to the company to make the updates you describe.
SomeHacker44 8y ago
I would be okay with the subscription plan if they would allow for a permanent license after the subscription ends. Something like what JetBrains did. I was going to drop using JB software until they added that feature, and now I am a happy ”subscriber.” I feel what galls people is that we buyers have nothing to show after ending a subscription, especially if we are not using anything “servicey” about said subscription.
- heimidal 8y ago
  You can just buy a license to 1Password whenever you want, though... it’s not subscription only.
tgb 8y ago
Can I use this space to ask how people actually use password managers on mobile? I got LastPass recently and put on it a good secure "correct horse battery staple"-type password. So now when I use accounts on my phone I have to type that password instead of my short, randomly generated, reused-all-the-time password. This means I'm more secure (no password reuse) but typing 30ish characters without error into my phone is tough! It usually takes me three tries and every time I curse my new password manager. But the alternative seems to be staying logged in to LastPass which means it's just my four digit phone pin to get access to everything. I mean, I guess if someone takes my phone and bypasses my PIN then I've already lost basically everything. But at least I wouldn't also be signing them into my bank account. My phone doesn't have biometrics which I think would be my compromise if it had them.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- robin_reala 8y ago
  Yeah, it’s painful without biometrics. For my threat model I’m happy enough to use TouchID on Mac and FaceID on my iPhone to unlock, and then to type in on the occasional time I need to unlock it manually.
- misterpigs 8y ago
  I use 1pass on my phone. I have a long password (English phrase) that I only use with 1pass I guess I've entered it enough times on mobile that I don't mistype it often. I use it to generate new passwords for whatever signups/apps I need on mobile, also for logging into websites on mobile. The workflow for password managers in mobile safari works very well. I don't enable FaceID/TouchID/PIN for 1Password, but I do have it enabled for my device.
- dwg 8y ago
  Aside from using biometrics, which makes it much easier, you might consider using a long passphrase as the master password. A passphrase is easier to remember and to type than random characters. It’s what I do, and it’s pretty easy to type without mistakes on mobile too.
jedisct1 8y ago
I use Enpass. $10 once for mobile devices, free everywhere else, can use Dropbox/iCloud/Google Drive for password storage, no need for any subscription whatsoever. And it can seamlessly import 1Password databases.
- czbond 8y ago
  Their approach is interesting; I currently use KeePassX and mobile was a huge pain. Thank you for posting about Enpass - going to try that out.
8ytecoder 8y ago
Both iOS and Mac App stores need options to allow developers to offer trials and paid upgrades.
- pier25 8y ago
  And easy refunds. On Android if you uninstall an app before 2 hours after buying it, you get an automatic refund.
rmorey 8y ago
Why are people so vehemently opposed to the 1PW cloud sync service? For unenrypted data, I completely understand this. And in general, it's great to have the option to sync using whatever service you want. But the data that 1PW stores is encrypted up the wazoo and AB couldn't extract your passwords from it even if they wanted to. In their security document they even outline how useless it would be for a bad actor to even steal every bit of data they have. And if some day their data center suddenly explodes and all that data is lost, your data is cached on all your devices anyway, and it's trivial to just export to another password manager. Am I mistaken?
- nighthawk1 8y ago
  I’d rather control the data myself. I view cloud hosted password providers as huge attack targets and they generally get hacked eventually (roboform, lastpass,etc). At least if you control where the data is stored your data can be kept off the radar so to speak.
  - y_molodtsov 8y ago
    As far as I remember nobody really had any problems after the LastPass hack, since the data was encrypted anyway?
- rcarmo 8y ago
  Relying on a small, niche service to host something you rely upon daily is simply not a good long-term decision. I’d much rather rely on OneDrive or Dropbox for syncing, since the likelihood of their going away suddenly or being acquired by someone else who will tank the service is smaller. Not impossible, but more unlikely.
- SpaethCo 8y ago
  The key issue I have with the cloud service right now is it breaks the automated backup process I get with iCloud sync and their Mac client. My biggest concern isn't bad actor data theft or online service outages, it's silent corruption of data that takes weeks / months to surface. With iCloud sync of a local vault, the client will automatically store backup copies of the database on the local filesystem. I can sync that file to local ZFS NAS storage and to offsite storage to maintain months/years of archives as desired. Until there is an automated export/backup option with the Agilebits sync serivce, it's off the table for me.
alexnewman 8y ago
I still have no idea why people don't use pass. I put my trust in gpg and git
- mychael 8y ago
  link?
  - Spivak 8y ago
    https://www.passwordstore.org/ https://www.passwordstore.org/
cdumler 8y ago
So, I'll join the chorus here by saying that I've picked up the subscription fee. I've been using their software daily for over three years. During that time, they have consistently improved their product and have been open about issues (as far as I am concerned). I was a little irked when I saw the subscription model. I was like, "hey, I paid for this." So, I looked up how much I paid in licenses by looking them up.. in 1Password. Turns out I paid about $40 for the Mac, Windows, iOS, and Android clients. That's $40 over three years for something that I use daily. Then, look at the $5/mo subscription for families. I get something that gives me access to all their software versions (Mac, Windows, iOS and Android) for five people, my entire family (if my cat ever decides to get a computer). I am a software professional. I pay for tools that keep me going and return me money because they offer me productivity. I pay for Things, Bear, iThoughts, and may other apps that have helped me greatly. One important statement I make to people is: _the price for security is eternal vigilance_. There are always new ways things get attacked and new ways to be more secure. I realized that I was gladly willing to pay $60/year to keep me and my family going while keeping AgileBits running as well. If there was anything that deserves a subscription, it is your security software. If its any consolation, several of my developer friends feel the same way. My two cents.
- jiveturkey 8y ago
  not just that there’s a cost to keeping this kind of software useful, for the subscription agilebits is actually adding value. unlike say adobe.
- archagon 8y ago
  As time goes on, I've gotten less and less comfortable using proprietary software for critical tasks. If 1Password were open source, I'd actually be pretty happy to subscribe. But as it stands, I have no faith that the product won't change out from under me in the future, whether due to a pivot, an acquisition, or some other reason. The incentives align in favor of the business, not the customer. IMHO, subscriptions are already pointing in that direction. I'd rather use something like pass and deal with the downsides. (Though I admittedly haven't switched yet.)
  - 8y ago
mderazon 8y ago
I never liked 1pass. I don't like the fact that you have to install a desktop app to use the browser extension. Also the UI is a bit annoying and sometimes it feels like it just gets in my way. The UX for multiple vaults is not so obvious at times and you don't realize you are only searching one vault instead of everything. Copying and sharing between vaults is also annoying. I really don't see what 1pass does better than LastPass. LP has a bad security reputation but other than that it's much more enjoyable to use
- kbar13 8y ago
  security software > I really don't see what 1pass does better than LastPass > LP has a bad security reputation
  - mderazon 8y ago
    Is there any reason to believe LP is currently less secure than 1pass? If anything, I assume LP has been more thoroughly audited by now
    - roustem 8y ago
      Does it still send unencrypted item URLs to the server?
- y_molodtsov 8y ago
  1password seems to have better apps and is supported by multiple apps on iOS.
- roustem 8y ago
  Good news! With 1Password X you can use it without installing the desktop app: https://blog.agilebits.com/2017/11/13/1password-x-a-look-at-the-future-of-1password-in-the-browser/ https://blog.agilebits.com/2017/11/13/1password-x-a-look-at-...
  - mderazon 8y ago
jarym 8y ago
The reason I won’t go for a subscription is because I don’t want to find myself locked out of my password manager if I stop paying the subscription. With IntelliJ (JetBrains) I get perpetual fallback and that makes me super comfortable with a subscription model. Will AgileBits offer perpetual fallback? I doubt it. Their product works well but their marketing team are a let down.
- thejj100100 8y ago
  You're not locked out of 1Password, you just can't add new items iirc.
- ixtli 8y ago
  Thank you for this comment. JetBrains subscription also drops in price over time to reward you for continued patronage. It's the only subscription model i've ever been comfortable with.
- roustem 8y ago
  You do not lose access to your data when you stop paying for the subscription. It switches to read-only mode.
- sigzero 8y ago
  You aren't locked out. It becomes read online and you can export it at that point.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
vira28 8y ago
I couldn't have asked this question at a much better time. Would appreciate your feedback. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17111650 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17111650
stirner 8y ago
The Mac App Store makes it impossible to charge for software customers have already paid for? Tragic.
- scarface74 8y ago
  Not impossible, hackish. You can emulate upgrade pricing via bundles. If you sold V1 for $5.00 and then you want to sell V2 to new customers for $5.00 but existing customers. You can bundle the two versions for $8.00 and in the description for V1 you tell them that version 2 is available and don't buy it. You tell customers that have bought V1 already to get the bundle for $3.
  - nodamage 8y ago
    I thought bundles were only available on iOS, not Mac?
    - scarface74 8y ago
      You are absolutely right. Yet another reason the Mac App Store is a dumpster fire....
  - stirner 8y ago
    That's an interesting workaround. The question I meant to raise was whether a workaround is justified, or whether software developers should just maintain the apps they sell.
    - scarface74 8y ago
      It depends. If your app can work within the sandbox and it's a one and done like a game, maybe. The Mac platform changes so slowly you don't have to worry as much about incompatibility with s new OS as you do iOS. But if you ever want paid upgrades or you are already a well known app -no. For instance it wouldn't make any sense for MS or Adobe to be in the Mac App Store.
- bwoodruff 8y ago
lemoncucumber 8y ago
So for the Mac client, the options are to either subscribe or buy a standalone license directly from AgileBits. But what is the upgrade path for futures versions of the iOS client if you choose not to subscribe?
- bwoodruff 8y ago
  1Password for iOS was just upgraded to v7 and was not a paid upgrade (anyone who had previously purchased received the upgrade free of charge). As for what the future will bring, having just recently launched v7, it is a bit early to say. Ben Woodruff AgileBits
f311a 8y ago
Can someone clarify? Can I use transfer my appstore non-subscription license?
- bwoodruff 8y ago
  I’m not entirely sure what you’re asking, but 1Password 7 is a separate purchase, unless you’re using a subscription (then it is included in your subscription). There is no transfer of licenses from v6 to v7. Does that help? Ben Woodruff AgileBits
vbezhenar 8y ago
1Password for Mac and iOS worked flawlessly. But I recently migrated to Windows and installed 1Password 6 for Windows. It's just bad software. It's not responsive (I'm pressing "Save" and it works for a second or two, while I'm expecting it to respond instantly), it has some obvious UI bugs, but worse of all, it crashes very often, I don't remember a single program that crashes so much. It just feels very unpolished. I'm waiting for 7-th version to try it. I thought about BitWarden but I don't really like its technologies. It uses .NET for server which is not very native for Linux. It uses JavaScript for client which I don't like at all. I wish it used something like Go or Java for server and .NET for client. So far my primary candidate to switch is KeePass. I don't like it a lot, but at least it works and it's reliable.
- xxkylexx 8y ago
  .NET Core is just as native as Java on Linux...
  - vbezhenar 8y ago
    I happen to be Java developer, so for me personally Java is fine. But yes, something like Go or Rust would be even better.
- roustem 8y ago
  I am sorry to hear about the bad experience with 1Password 6! I was using 1Password 7 beta for the past few months and it worked well, we hope to release it in a few days. If you have a problem, please do not hesitate to send us an email or live a message in our discussion forum: https://discussions.agilebits.com/ https://discussions.agilebits.com/ We do our best to reply to every message in 24 hours
ggm 8y ago
There is a non-subscription, licence-purchase model. They basically obfuscate it, (ok: kinder is "don't market it strongly") But there IS a licence model. So mainly, the issue is how "hard" they make it to find. That, and the 'dont be evil, but hey, we changed our minds a bit' aspect to what was said in the past and now emerges. The APP store doesn't help, but I think its ass-backwards to use that to "sell" the subscription model. Honestly? I could come into this now and not care, but as a licence holder, the way its being done irks me. Just make it easier to find the licence option on the web page and in your apps, and I'll be good.
- AGKyle 8y ago
  Making it easier to find is a double edged sword and the reason why it's harder to find now. If we make it easy to find it will cause confusion for users about which to get. When we did this in the past we had a lot of users who thought they had to have both and as such would purchase both. This led to a lot of refunds on our part and explanation for which they should get. Turns out most users are perfectly happy and will benefit greatly from the subscription side. This site and a couple of other places being the exception to this as many of you seem to prefer licenses which means this aggravates you all, but for the average person the benefit greatly from the subscription side and it's the one they often choose when we explain the benefits of each. So making it easier to find puts that problem back on the table and quite frankly, it's something I'd really personally rather not deal with like before. It's easy to say differently until you have hundreds of users at any given time looking for help with what to buy or you accidentally find out they purchased both while helping them with some other unrelated thing. The Mac App Store makes sense for subscriptions though. They will always have access to the latest version so long as the subscription is active, so we don't have to deal with upgrade pricing there. For license users though it's not as clear cut. We can either issue a new app each time but we can't advertise the new version in the old version (rules) and this will end up with a lot of users not knowing there's a new version out. Subscription users will also have to upgrade manually each time and that's not convenient for them at all given they're entitled to that new version as part of their subscription. We're trying to make it easy, though it's going to be difficult this time because we do have to get license users to switch entirely to our direct download version. Once this is done though, subscription users can use either or, whichever they want. License users will always use our direct download version. When an upgrade comes out our subscription users will always be upgraded to the latest version without issues. Our license users will be prompted to upgrade or be informed of the upgrade in some way. This is how it should work, unfortunately it was not possible to do this for the Mac App Store so we had to make changes there. Perhaps things change with the Mac App Store in the future and we can bring back both, but for now, this new method we're using provides the best user experience for both sides, once the switch is made. I'll be the first to admit I hate removing choice from the equation here, and I hate that we have to get users to do work in the first place. But sometimes there are things outside of your ability to control and this is one of them for us. Hope that gives some additional insight that wasn't present in the blog post though. Kyle AgileBits
Angostura 8y ago
Assuming in the Apple ecosystem only, is there any reason to go for this rather that the in-built Keychain?
stock_toaster 8y ago
New version of the MacOS desktop app appears to require at least Sierra. Hope the current version still works with "1Password Families" for a while (as I'm stuck on El Cap due to older hardware).
mark_l_watson 8y ago
1Password is a good product - I used it for a trial period a few years ago. I ended up going with SpiderOak's Encryptr: open source and free. In any case, I try to get family and friends to use a password tool like 1Password, Encryptr, etc. It drives me crazy when people re-use the same low-entropy password for everything.
KiDD 8y ago
Never gonna pay to upgrade again...
twodayslate 8y ago
So if you are on a Family plan now and pay monthly you have to also pay monthly for the app?
- roustem 8y ago
  No. If you are on a Family plan then all apps and updates are included in the subscription price.
sigzero 8y ago
You can still buy a standalone license from the website directly. That's probably what I will do or I will find something else.
dvcrn 8y ago
I love 1Password and immediately bought a standalone 1P7 license when they started with the beta. I agree with some others that they bury the hell out of the standalone one and want people to go for the subscription, but as long as I still have my standalone one, I am a happy customer. 7 looks and feels great, and for a software that I used for years and years since I first bought my license, this upgrade felt justified. I in no way felt I had to upgrade though and could have just sticked with 6. My only worry is that with 8, it might become subscription only for good... (Please don't!!)
jsgo 8y ago
At this point, I'm not upset about this as I previously subscribed, but I'm at the point now where I'm thinking of bolting because it has become a pain. At this point, I just need to find something that is secure, portable, can be backed up, and cross platform. The syncing experience since at least 6 has been spotty between my Windows client, my iPhone, and my iPad. I can't tell you how many times I've had to reset a password because the device I was on didn't have the current gibberish password. Maybe I'm holding it wrong, but using the create login -> password generation bit does not sync at all. There's also the issue that every time I shutdown my Windows PC, I am greeted with an alert that AgileBits.1Password (there's another dot-separated part in the name as well, not sure what or specifically where) there was some issue in it that I have to close to shutdown. With all that being said, I don't think Agile Bits is a bad company or that the subscription model is evil or anything of that nature. I think they're pretty decent people that are trying to keep the company profitable and alive. Paying for updates for password managers probably isn't the sexiest business model on either side of the equation. I would prefer that once I pay for it, it could function at that level (with maybe bug fixes) leveraging DropBox, iCloud, OneDrive, whatever, but I also understand they felt the need to cut it off and keep it relatively simple. It just isn't for me anymore.
- bwoodruff 8y ago
  Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts. I understand your perspective, and I’m sorry to hear that ultimately 1Password did not work out for you. One of the primary reasons we built 1Password memberships was because of difficulties faced by customers in syncing with 3rd party services, and difficulties faced by our customer service team in troubleshooting those services (often black boxes). Ben Woodruff AgileBits
indemnity 8y ago
I thought I'd check out the beta, but what I didn't like about it is that it didn't even let me know the standalone approach was an option, Before I'd known what happened it had imported my previous passwords from the standalone version I had before and uploaded them to my 1Password.com account. Pretty unhappy about this, I make it sync to iCloud because it's basically the only cloud provider I somewhat trust. I do not want a bloody 1Password.com account. How do I now know they've really deleted my data slurped into 1Password.com?
Khaine 8y ago
I'm not sure how the subscription model makes sense for a password manager. In general, I'm not a fan of the subscription model. I hate the trend towards subscription. I can imagine a day, when I pay $5 a month for a password manager, $5 a month for office, $5 for slack, $5 for a to do manager, $5 fr a mail product, $10 for an internet browser, and after all that having no money for anything else.
- bwoodruff 8y ago
  Speaking strictly in terms of money... How much would you pay for a license? $65? So what does that work out to if we release an upgrade every 2 - 2.5 years? About $30 / yr, right? That is about what a subscription costs as well, but the subscription includes access to the apps on all platforms, as well as other features not available with a license. For most people, especially 1Password Families customers, the subscription option is going to be less expensive. This is a reflection of the amount of support required on average by license customers vs subscription customers. Ben Woodruff AgileBits
  - Khaine 8y ago
    I understand the logic behind the value of a subscription. Personally, I am more comfortable 'owning' my software than having a subscription to it.
isarat 8y ago
I was skeptical about going for subscription. I started when I travelled abroad where I followed Basecamp’s travel tips (handbook). Things have changed when I started using 1Password 7 and 1Password X. The apps is very polished and pretty handy. I use Linux a lot these days and 1PX and CLI is very helpful. Never regretted the cloud update upgrade.
serbrech 8y ago
I've been staying on v4.x to keep the sync to dropbox. I don't want to used their hosted service. I don't want my master password to transit over the internet and its hash to be stored in a db, no matter how secure they are. Centralizing this makes it a target of attack. There is no way a hacker will try to get my credential unless he targets me personally, and there is little to no reason for this to happen. It does exactly what I need it to do. I don't need all the fancy other additional features. :(
- bwoodruff 8y ago
  Your Master Password is never transmitted or stored hashed in a database. Please check out our security whitepaper. http://1pw.ca/whitepaper http://1pw.ca/whitepaper Ben Woodruff AgileBits
lancewiggs 8y ago
Sending any information to Agilebits besides payment requires a whole lot more trust - and stuffing over customers was not the way to earn it. So no - I don’t trust them anymore. I’ve reccomended 1password to hundreds of people, so it’s sad to see the decline. I would and did accept a simple annual new paid version - but the upgrades seemed to to remove/hide the basics like Dropbox sync or one location for passwords. So now there is a gap in the market for a paid easy to install and sync password manager that makes it trivial to store data locally. Surely they are a lot easier to create now?
tomerbd 8y ago
Why not just use keepassx for Mac with parallel versions on for iOS Android with cloud sync can someone explain to me? I have everything I need auto complete control strength etc + it's open source.
Jemm 8y ago
At the rate that things in my life are moving to a subscription model, I am going to need a subscription manager more than a password manager.
jpz 8y ago
I bought their software. The software stopped working properly and nagged me to buy a subscription - despite having purchased the full product previously. I lost my interest in being their customer. They did offer my a 1yr subscription for free, but by then I had wasted hours trying to get a new install to work and had lost my goodwill with the product.
MindTooth 8y ago
I think for myself that I won't upgrade. The whole process is a mess when coming from the regular App Store app, and the need to convert, with new apps, sites, etc. The reason I've always loved 1Password was of the convince of signing into App Store, download the app, and just open 1Password, enter the masterpw, and be done with it. I will miss the iCloud-sync and the convenience on Apple-platforms, but I seriously believe that a change is forced.

364 points by okket 8y ago

…but they will still be selling individual non-subscription licenses through their own website, so anyone who wants to avoid a subscription can still do so.

rcarmo 8y ago
Still, this is a trend I will have nothing to do with if at all possible. And besides subscriptions, version 7 will only sync using their back-end, which is not acceptable for me. On one hand, password managers in browsers are becoming nearly good enough to cover for 80% of my use cases, and most of the other 20% boil down to convenience (ease of pasting, updating, etc.) I don't like the idea of being forced to move to a subscription on my Mac and on iOS for diminishing returns in feature improvements -- and I've been using 1Password for many years now, so the need to finance new features is something that I understand but have seen little return from. By all means ensure you can sustain revenue, but beware of inflated subscription prices. (I've been keeping tabs on alternatives for a while now, so I will likely not upgrade to 1Password 7)
- Spooky23 8y ago
  Anyone making software wants Abobe/Microsoft margins and enterprise like recurring revenue for their random product. At least in the case of 1password the rate isn’t usurious, but the biggest problem they have is due to a business decision to make the product dependent on a SaaS-like service delivery model.
  - smaddox 8y ago
    If it's cloud-based sync, then a subscription model makes sense, but I've yet to find a subscription price that is in line with what I think is reasonable (~$2 / month) for the service.
    - daveFNbuck 8y ago
      LastPass is $2/month.
    - Fnoord 8y ago
      Bitwarden is $10 per year (if you use the premium features such as 2FA). You can also self-host.
- tadasv 8y ago
  What alternatives do you have in mind? I was thinking the same, but haven't done much research yet. I definitely want to have more control over my passwords.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - chiefalchemist 8y ago
    I'm not sure what your criteria are but I've been using LastPass (Enterprise) with 2FA (Yubikey) for a couple years now. Aside from the Yubikey, the key benefit is I can share a folder with someone using the free version. It's not cheap but it works and afaik it's secure (esp with the Yubi).
    - roustem 8y ago
      1Password Family accounts have support for free guest accounts that can be used to share information with other people without requiring them to purchase.
- tzs 8y ago
  > And besides subscriptions, version 7 will only sync using their back-end, which is not acceptable for me. What do you mean by "only sync using their back-end"?
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - pletnes 8y ago
    Older versions could sync with e.g. Dropbox. So to get your passwords, someone would have to break into dropbox and then into your encrypted vault.
    - tzs 8y ago
      Same with current versions, except on Windows. On Windows, 1Password 6 lost that ability, I believe. It's coming back with 1Password 7 on Windows.
- yladiz 8y ago
  > version 7 will only sync using their back-end, which is not acceptable for me Are you sure about this? My understanding is that they will support other places to sync, like iCloud, as in previous versions.
- akerl_ 8y ago
  I am using 1Password 7 right now and have several local vaults and several vaults that are synced via Dropbox, so I'm not sure what you mean.
- xoa 8y ago
  >And besides subscriptions, version 7 will only sync using their back-end, which is not acceptable for me. What. I'm using 1Password 7 with a standalone license. I installed the beta, paid the $40 it cost for a license, and it works fine with iCloud and Dropbox same as always, I moved right from 1Password 4 and the only change I did was to purposefully force a resync so that all shared keychains would be updated from the ancient format to the newer one (if you were on 1P6 that wouldn't be necessary). I'm not a fan of their subscription efforts because I think it's actively subtracted from what they could have done for the standalone version, and I don't think they've been fully honest about it which absolutely rankles. They talk big about benefits but they don't actually acknowledge costs or the profit motive. Even so there is a really oddly high load of objectively, trivially disproved FUD swirling around these HN articles about them now and I don't fully understand why.

preek 8y ago

Good timing that I moved all my passwords from 1Password to Emacs and GPG one year ago. It’s a pity; I’ve been a very happy customer for a long time, had licenses for multiple machines and was happy enough to pay for the updates. But my data shall be my data, again. I’m not paying for an app that I regularly have to buy an upgrade for and which doesn’t give me the opportunity to hold my data locally after explicitly having this as a selling proposition for many years.

micv 8y ago
They're still selling standalone versions for MacOS & Windows that run off local storage. Doesn't seem like they're doing multi-OS license bundles anymore, though, so it's gonna run expensive if you use more than one OS.
- bwoodruff 8y ago
  This is accurate. In general / on average standalone vaults require more support, and the price of licensing compared to subscription pricing reflects that. Ben Woodruff AgileBits
shortoncash 8y ago
Could you comment on your emacs setup? I see a few threads on this from Google, but just curious what your setup is and maybe some tidbits about the pros and cons of this kind of setup. Thanks in advance.
akerl_ 8y ago
People keep bringing this up, and it feels like a major failure of Agilebits marketing approach. The subscription service changes the frequency at which you pay Agilebits; it does not mandate how you store your data. 1Password 7 continues to allow all the kinds of local/Dropbox/etc vaults that prior versions allowed. If somebody at Agilebits is reading this thread: look around at these comments. The lack of clear information about local storage in the subscription model is causing massive levels of customer concern.
- 8y ago

spv 8y ago

I have been using Bitwarden for some time now. It’s an open source password manager. There are apps for all major platforms and extensions to all major browsers. Checkout https://bitwarden.com/ https://bitwarden.com/

ringshall 8y ago
To be precise, their base software is Free software, licensed under the AGPLv3. The also distribute non-Free (and non-Open Source, and non-gratis) software. Their base software has an artificial limit in terms of number of users and number of 'collections', which goes contrary to the ethics of Free software.
- mitchty 8y ago
  Boo, I was looking for something that had a cli and integrated with every browser as well as had an ios app. I've not looked again recently but lastpass is the only thing I've found that fits those bills.
  - xxkylexx 8y ago
    - https://github.com/bitwarden/browser https://github.com/bitwarden/browser - https://github.com/bitwarden/cli https://github.com/bitwarden/cli
    - mitchty 8y ago
      I saw all that but it looks like you've got to pay a monthly fee for full access for their cloud storage. Not sure its worth the hassle of migrating to in this case.
      - mitchty 8y ago
        Asked my buddy what he was using and he pointed me to this: https://www.enpass.io https://www.enpass.io Seems to fit the bill a bit better. And might mean $12/year less though thats not a huge problem.

drivingmenuts 8y ago

I'm glad they're at least offering non-subscription licenses. I hate feeling like I'm having to buy the software over and over again, just to get security updates. While 1Password works better than the rest of the pack, they're not exactly a fountain of new, needed features.

mtkd 8y ago
I've used 1password since 2010 when I paid $69.95 for a family license. It seems to need upgrading for each new version of OSX - but I still only use the features now that I used in 2010.

nsarafa 8y ago

I lost faith in 1Password when they forced me into the subscription model despite paying full price for the product years ago

chorsestudios 8y ago
Came here to say this. I lost a lot of customer loyalty for 1Password after they did this to me. Unless I missed it, no mention of the price of version 7 in the blog post.
- preya2k 8y ago
  They announced a price for the windows version. It will be $65, and you get a $25 discount if you've been using the beta version. I assume Mac licenses will cost the same. Source: https://blog.agilebits.com/2018/03/20/introducing-1password-7-beta-for-windows/ https://blog.agilebits.com/2018/03/20/introducing-1password-...
acdha 8y ago
How did they force you into the subscription model?
- bdcravens 8y ago
  This. You can still use it with local vaults or sync with something like Dropbox.
  - maxgee 8y ago
    Not on windows.
    - MrBMT 8y ago
      1Password 7 re-adds local vault support to Windows for standalone license users at the very least. Not sure about subscription users... as there seems to be conflicting information about this.

eecc 8y ago

I’m very happy with Safari and the macOS keychain app. Indeed if apple allowed access to un-sandboxed apps I’d be happy to share with Chrome

greggarious 8y ago

I've been using KeepassXC (KeePass w/ macOS GUI elements) and enjoying it. It's a little simple (you just copy and paste the PW). It doesn't do fancy autofill but there's support for pretty much every OS. (I use Spideroak to sync the DB across devices)

NMDaniel 8y ago
KeepassXC does have a browser extension for Firefox & Chrome. I use Syncthing to sync it among devices, it's open source and fairly simple to use(compared to other DIY cloud apps)
- greggarious 8y ago
  > KeepassXC does have a browser extension for Firefox & Chrome. Yeah, but IIRC it doesn't on iOS? I dunno, it hasn't been a big pain point. My solution has to use the Firefox password manager for low value things (like Hacker News), and manually c/p for the higher value (bank, retirement account, etc). (Maybe I'm overly paranoid but I don't like to put high value passwords into the cloud)
tajen 8y ago
Guys, why not Keychain, the default password manager of macOS?
- pvg 8y ago
  iCloud Keychain is Safari-only.
  - ben_w 8y ago
    Not any more. I can access keychain passwords in Chrome on iOS.
    - pvg 8y ago
      It's Safari-only on macOS, as far as I know. It does work with iOS apps and it doesn't work on Windows. It can't replace a password manager unless you use Safari on macOS as your primary browser.

drej 8y ago

I honestly can’t remember when I last paid for 1Password, yet I use it on my Mac and iOS devices (since 2011 it seems!). It never prompts me, it just works. I don’t follow the pricing policy changes, the only thing I know is I don’t want a subscription. I just want to pay for this great piece of software. So I hope this just means I’ll shell out $50 or so and be done for a few years? If so, then great.

Bud 8y ago
It doesn't mean that, they are aggressively making sure it will never mean that again, and it definitely won't be fifty bucks for a few years. (It's $36/yr.)
- pvg 8y ago
  You can buy 1Password 7 standalone right now.
  - bdcravens 8y ago
    Where is that information on their website?
    - pvg 8y ago
      Is this supposed to be a rebuttal to something or do you actually need help finding it?
      - durkie 8y ago
        I'm interested in where it is. I have recommended 1Password to friends saying that I had heard standalone version was still available, but I am unable to find it on their site.
        pvg 8y ago
        https://blog.agilebits.com/2018/03/28/the-1password-7-beta-for-mac-is-lit-and-you-can-be-too/ https://blog.agilebits.com/2018/03/28/the-1password-7-beta-f... There's also a Windows version now.

awesomepeter 8y ago

An alternative which lets you host your data is Enpass. I've been using it but I'm not sure how secure it really is.

sigzero 8y ago
> I've been using it but I'm not sure how secure it really is. Then why use it? That seems like an important detail for a password manager.

cygned 8y ago

I really like 1Password, it has been my daily driver for years. The creators gifted me versions for macOS and iOS years ago, so I never had to pay for it - which I would have done happily and, in fact, just recently did. But the push to the cloud versions gives me headache. I don’t want to sync using their cloud - I actually sync using a WiFi server. While it’s (still) possible to obtain the standalone versions, it’s difficult to find them. And I expect that in a few years, they’ll be gone completely. I am looking into Bitwarden at the moment as a self-hosted alternative but I haven’t decided yet.

akerl_ 8y ago
It's worth noting (and not super obvious because of their marketing) that "getting a subscription" and "using their cloud sync" are not a mutual requirement. You can pay via subscription and continue using local/Dropbox/etc vaults. This part was super confusing to me until I dug deeper when a friend upgraded. So the primary impact of switching from standalone license to subscription, if you're planning on using 1Password for a while, is that instead of paying a larger chunk of money every so often when they drop a new major version, you move to paying a flat couple bucks a month or larger chunk per year.
- cygned 8y ago
  Thanks for pointing that out, that was, indeed, not clear to me either. But I expect this will change at some point, for the sake of simplicity for end users. Giving up security for convenience.
  - akerl_ 8y ago
    I doubt that, personally, because of exactly the reasons you and others are noting in this thread. Especially in a world where they successfully convince everybody to pay a monthly subscription, the effect of losing every user who wants local vaults would be an immediate visible blow to their revenue stream. Their goal in moving to subscription services seems less driven by simplicity and more with making that revenue stream more predictable. But whoever runs the marketing side of the house decided the best way to pitch the change was by saying how great the cloud hosting was, and looking around at these comments I hope they realize their error.

mychael 8y ago

1Password does not care about loyal users who have been there since the beginning. They care about getting new subscriptions. Fair enough, I'll just take my business elsewhere.

bdcravens 8y ago
How often did you upgrade?
pier25 8y ago
Yeah that's what I did too.
bwoodruff 8y ago
I’m sorry we’ve made you feel that way. What is it that causes these feelings for you? I certainly won’t deny that we feel strongly that for the vast majority of customers membership is going to provide the best experience, and so that is primarily what we talk about. But we’ve done a fair bit of work to keep standalone vaults and licensing. Ben Woodruff AgileBits

PakG1 8y ago

With all these subscription-only apps that are proliferating, I am curious how many enterprising app developers would be interested in making and marketing "cloudless" apps that rely on up-front high prices for revenue, but neverending free updates (mostly bug fixes, I would hope). With GDPR, this seems like it would be actually be easier to deliver. Of course growth numbers may suck, given how hard it is to make it for any app these days. Long-term growth would probably actually not be sustainable because if it blows up, there is no additional revenue down the road from lack of subscription, and also no network effects to power exponential growth in terms of market share. As far as I can tell, if you're not going to do subscription, there's no way to force users to pay to upgrade to a new version (new features) in the Apple App Store, not sure about Google Play. Your only option is to maybe create a new separate app that's able to import data from the old app, but that seems tacky to me. So, this really wouldn't be a big long-term play at all. But I imagine that there must be short-term markets out there willing to pay for apps that don't keep their data and usage hostage. I'm myself thinking of making an app like this for budget tracking, just because I haven't found any out there these days that don't require neverending subscriptions and also fit my unique needs. Cloudless is also fine for me, as my phone is storage enough, or if it isn't enough, maybe use my iCloud storage, Dropbox storage, Google Drive, OneDrive, etc for holding the data? Besides that, it'll finally give me the kick in the behind I need to finally learn Swift, which I've been meaning to do for a while. Alas, I imagine cost of customer acquisition may be too high to make even a short-term profit. So... would this just be a small project for me to prove I can learn Swift and show future employers that I can make smartphone apps too? Or is there actually a real business here and in so many other niches because some people hate being locked into subscription fees? Curious if anyone else has some thoughts.

codetrotter 8y ago
> I'm myself thinking of making an app like this for budget tracking, just because I haven't found any out there these days that don't require neverending subscriptions and also fit my unique needs. Did you try GnuCash? It's not user friendly but a friend of mine swears by it. https://www.gnucash.org/ https://www.gnucash.org/
- 8y ago

alceta 8y ago

As a long time 1password user (at least since 2009), I switched to Bitwarden late last year and did not regret it.

senthilnayagam 8y ago

I did not pay for a subscription software, I bought a password manager which stored password locally. I also don't want to pay for a upgrade just because apple upgraded the OS. I now only buy mac software on Mac App Store. Apps which I have not renewed include 1password, screenflow, textmate, vmware Fusion, Paid Products I wish were on Mac App Store with free updates. Sublime, Paragon NTFS , printopia

whitepoplar 8y ago
But TextMate isn't a subscription, is it?
dingo_bat 8y ago
So you want perpetual free updates? I think your expectations might be a tad unrealistic.
- Casseres 8y ago
  It should be built into the initial price. And perpetual is unrealistic, but 10 years is not. Microsoft provides 5 years of Mainstream Support and 5 years of Extended Support at no additional cost (cost is built into the initial license fee). Heck, I would more trust software that says 10 years of garunteed support rather than lifetime support. Too many companies fudge the meaning of "lifetime", and 10 years blows Google's 2 + 1 years of Android support out of the water.
  - nqzero 8y ago
    there's a huge difference between supporting the version that they sold you for a specific version of ios and writing a new version to work with future changes to ios (which they don't in any way control)
    - josteink 8y ago
      Not really. As an iOS user I am forced to update the os for software to be supported and receive new security updates. That Apple makes previous versions of my installed software incompatible when I do upgrade should not be my problem. (That said, I agree there is a problem here, and I think Apple should ultimately be the one who fixes it)

bpicolo 8y ago

While I could understand people being upset about this, I pay for a 1password family subscription. It really is a terrific investment. As far as subscription services go it's about the best bang for my buck that I get. A sustainable service model is important for something I rely on so much - especially something that needs to keep on security lockdown. Also makes it easy for the family to share hulu, netflix, whatnot.

SirensOfTitan 8y ago
I just switched over as a long time standalone user, and I completely agree. The 1Password Families subscription provides a tremendous amount of value and the product just keeps getting better.
ajmurmann 8y ago
What value does it provide beyond the old family license pack + syncing of shared vaults via free Dropbox tier?
- bpicolo 8y ago
  Probably nothing other than ease of use, but the old model isn't part of the equation for me. 5 bucks a month for my whole family to have good password security practices, and for 1password to sustain continuous updates, is a great deal.
  - crankylinuxuser 8y ago
    Something as critical as "password infrastructure" should absolutely never be a subscription model. Pay software, sure. But by no means should anybody other than you have the ability to refuse access, especially some company where you are nothing but a $5/month number. I would be more forgiving if the subscription was for value-added features, like dynamic syncing, or remote encrypted storage. But it ain't.
    - snuxoll 8y ago

hs86 8y ago

I hate subscription models but with 1PW 7 I would have to pay +40 € for each the Mac and the Windows version and still have not access to new features like the travel mode or the CLI client. AgileBits seems to be an honest company and they went the extra mile to backport some new features (TOTP) to their dated 1PW 4 codebase. I will give them the benefit of the doubt and try their subscription and should they ever turn 'evil', I know that alternatives like Bitwarden or Enpass are available and ready to import my 1PW vault.

roustem 8y ago
Thank you, @hs86. We will not let you down!

intrasight 8y ago

Could someone chime in with a TL;DR on what this thing does?

xoa 8y ago

I at least partly blame Apple and the MAS being such piece of shit for accelerating some of the sub trends we're seeing on the Mac now. It's really such a genuine shame, because in principle the MAS really could be an excellent idea, a way to unify and simplify a pain point of Mac use and boost security at a few levels without a need to alienate anyone or not support anything. Instead Apple had to make it an artificially pointlessly limited collection of tradeoffs and mediocrity. In particular AgileBits is right about the missing upgrade pricing system really being a bummer. To this day Apple's decision to remove that remains one of the most perplexing decisions of anything they did with the MAS (or iOS App Store for that matter). The basic idea of paying just for marginal value added since original purchase whereas new purchasers are paying for the whole package from zero is an efficient, sensible and sustainable one that has supported the software industry well since the very beginning. Ongoing support of software costs money, particularly when Apple has made it another principle of theirs to be aggressive about pushing the platform forward vs backwards compatibility. No upgrades (or volume discounts or anything else) is still such a mind blowingly stupid decision in every respect. It's forced developers to make some tough choices unnecessarily, and IAP and subs are one way to go at it.

danieldk 8y ago
I at least partly blame Apple and the MAS being such piece of shit for accelerating some of the sub trends we're seeing on the Mac now. It's really such a genuine shame, because in principle the MAS really could be an excellent idea, a way to unify and simplify a pain point of Mac use and boost security at a few levels without a need to alienate anyone or not support anything. I agree. Many of the applications that have moved out of the app store (e.g. Dash) have also ditched sandboxing. Going back to the situation where every application can read your whole home directory is a large regression. (Of course, non-MAS apps can also be sandboxed, but many developers do not do it.)
- bwoodruff 8y ago
  1Password 7 for Mac is sandboxed, regardless of where you download it from. Ben Wooodruff AgileBits
8y ago

AdmiralAsshat 8y ago

So remember when 1Password claimed it was superior to LastPass for only requiring you to pay a one-time fee and not storing all of your stuff in the cloud? Good times.

shinratdr 8y ago
To be fair, it still does all that stuff. I get that these moves make people nervous, and rightfully so. But as it stands every version of 1Password in active development (not including maintenance mode): * Can be licensed standalone. * Supports local & Dropbox vaults. * Was released within the last year, actively supporting those features. The only feature they’ve actually killed off (by not baking into future clients) is WLAN sync. This is a regression for some, but personally I always found it super impractical. I agree that how they are going about this doesn’t inspire confidence that these features will remain in the product, but to some extent it does. While they downplay the hell out of it, 1Password 6 for Windows was a ground up rewrite that ditched local vaults and standalone licensing. Those features were reintroduced in 1Password 7 for Windows, which is a pretty big backtrack for them and requires renewed development effort. AgileBits doesn’t always make the right decision. They develop opinionated software, like most good developers. However, just like the MAS-only decision they made with 1Password 4 and stood by for some time, eventually they do right by their customers. 1Password 7 for Windows is a great example of that. As much as they would love to go cloud only, they heard the feedback and brought back those two key features. At this point, I can’t expect much more than that.
- curun1r 8y ago
  > every version of 1Password in active development...Can be licensed standalone This is incorrect. The command line client is subscription-only.
  - shinratdr 8y ago
    Fair enough, I wasn’t familiar with this client.
  - bwoodruff 8y ago

0culus 8y ago

Although it's been said that they will continue supporting licenses through their website, they have made this feature _extremely_ difficult to find ever since introducing subscriptions. I've been a loyal user of 1Password for a long time, and I think it's great software. I use it on both my Macs, as well as on my iOS devices. However, hiding the non-subscription feature is silly. I do not wish to add yet another subscription (especially something so crucial as my what manages my passwords; I need [edit] it to work, no questions asked), and I would be more than happy to purchase a new license for 1Password 7.

shinratdr 8y ago
I agree they are burying the hell out of it, but as it stands licenses for 1Password 7 (which is still in beta on Mac & Windows) can only be purchased from within the client, as they want to test the order flow which was rebuilt in this version. The Windows version of 1Password 7 still can’t be licensed, they haven’t built that part yet. The Mac version however can be purchased, and if you plan on sticking with it I would do so now, as the price will be much higher in the near future. Right now it’s being offered at 50% off.
- 0culus 8y ago
  Where is it on their website? I haven't been able to find it at all.
  - mminer 8y ago
    They mention the discount in this blog post: https://blog.agilebits.com/2018/03/28/the-1password-7-beta-for-mac-is-lit-and-you-can-be-too/ https://blog.agilebits.com/2018/03/28/the-1password-7-beta-f... "Licenses will be available for $64.99 when we launch later this year, but are available now for only $39.99."
  - jffry 8y ago
    I just went through this - there's a tiny "downloads" link at the bottom of their page that takes you to https://1password.com/downloads/ https://1password.com/downloads/ I just went through this. Install v7, open it, unlock your vault, and it'll prompt you to try a subscription, with a tiny option below to just buy a license.

robteix 8y ago

I have a family subscription of 1PW. I can easily share some password with my wife and our daughter is getting used to using a password manager before she's 10. I totally empathize with those who refuse to use cloud/subscription services as, let's face it, there are a lot of bad actors doing crappy things with our data. But for me 1Password seems like a small, honest company providing great quality service and software. I'm a happy customer.

gergles 8y ago
> But for me 1Password seems like a small, honest company providing great quality service and software. Yes, I imagine because they have carefully crafted that image through blog posts and impression management. They have over 70 employees to write a password manager. 70!
- wyclif 8y ago
  But that's a bit specious. There are not 70 software developers at AgileBits engaged in writing the code for the product. A business like AgileBits requires a lot more overhead than just software engineering.
- roustem 8y ago
  We are actually more than 100 people now. A big part of our team is dedicated to customer support. After all there are over 15 mln 1Password users and we get several thousand emails per day. There are over 30,000 businesses using 1Password. We have designer and development teams for Mac/iOS (Objective-C, Swift), Windows (C#, .NET), Android (Java, Kotlin), browser extensions (JavaScript), 1Password server (Go), 1Password web client (TypeScript, ReactJS), command-line client (Go), SCIM/LDAP integration (Go, Docker, Kubernetes), and a ton of other smaller projects. There is a Security Team that does security reviews, works with BugCrowd researchers, and does SOC 2 compliance. DevOps team works with AWS and Google Cloud. We want to do more. We are hiring :)

gaius 8y ago

Stupid question: what does this do that iCloud Keychain doesn’t do?

SomeHacker44 8y ago
Among other things: TOTP.
deleted 8y ago
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y_molodtsov 8y ago
iCloud Keychain is pretty good, but it tragically fails in the followings cases: * Any browser other than Safari. * Apps that MacOS/iOS don't parse for password fields for some reasons so you can't generate a password right there — and it's a huge pain to add them manually, practically impossible on iOS. * Cloud access (if you need your account and don't have any of your devices). Your Keychain is in the iCloud, but you can't access it from icloud.com So Apple could easily make it much better but they haven't.
roustem 8y ago
Multiple browsers, Windows, Linux, Chromebooks, encrypted documents and other item types, sharing, travel mode, item history, watchtower (security audit), ...

sgeisenh 8y ago

This just reminds me how excited I am for passwords to be replaced. We shouldn't need a third party application as an authentication shim for every service that we use. The high lock-in on password managers is also unnerving.

krautsourced 8y ago

After using (and loving and having paid for) 1P for years, I moved over to Enpass a year or so ago. Their clients are not as good as 1P's, but I simply neither want a subscription based service (what happens if they are bought / go under), nor do I want my passwords to reside on their servers (encrypted or not).

makecheck 8y ago

There are at least two elements to software maintenance: one is adding truly new features, and the other is making stupid changes just to keep old features working as they always did (often due to platform or hardware changes, especially with Apple!). I see Apple coughing up none of the costs that they create by regularly fiddling with their platforms and hardware in breaking ways, yet that is a big reason why software can’t be sensibly “bought once”. Now they’ve come up with a scheme where they not only don’t give developers discounts for maintaining software but actually take yet another cut. Don’t judge developers too harshly.

Pulcinella 8y ago
Yes. I feel that, because of the currently constantly changing nature of hardware and software platforms, subscriptions are going to be the only way of sustaining a business. It’s no longer even software as a service, but software IS a service. The only exceptions are situations where hardware and platforms change slowly or not at all. e.g. Single player video games (and even that is largely consoles), certain kinds of embedded, etc. People are already becoming frustrated with all the subscriptions they have, though. People are “fine” with paying to maintain things like their home and car. The problem with software is that it doesn’t really “break” from use. Updating the platform and hardware around the software is what can break it. It would be like the pipes in your home are indestructible and never burst in winter, but they can explode when building codes update or the water treatment plant changes it’s equipment.
- spronkey 8y ago
  I hope that it's only a matter of time before people start turning their pitchforks at Apple, Microsoft, maybe Google et al who are the perpetrators of the majority of this platform fiddling that stops software from working.
Mister_Snuggles 8y ago
> There are at least two elements to software maintenance: one is adding truly new features, and the other is making stupid changes just to keep old features working as they always did (often due to platform or hardware changes, especially with Apple!). I'm OK with the model that VMware is using, at least on the Mac. You buy version X, you have version X. Version X gets updates for some amount of time. Eventually, a Mac OS upgrade makes version X no longer work, so you have to pay an upgrade price to upgrade to version Y. There is no subscription, but there is regular income to the company to make the updates you describe.

SomeHacker44 8y ago

I would be okay with the subscription plan if they would allow for a permanent license after the subscription ends. Something like what JetBrains did. I was going to drop using JB software until they added that feature, and now I am a happy ”subscriber.” I feel what galls people is that we buyers have nothing to show after ending a subscription, especially if we are not using anything “servicey” about said subscription.

heimidal 8y ago
You can just buy a license to 1Password whenever you want, though... it’s not subscription only.

tgb 8y ago

Can I use this space to ask how people actually use password managers on mobile? I got LastPass recently and put on it a good secure "correct horse battery staple"-type password. So now when I use accounts on my phone I have to type that password instead of my short, randomly generated, reused-all-the-time password. This means I'm more secure (no password reuse) but typing 30ish characters without error into my phone is tough! It usually takes me three tries and every time I curse my new password manager. But the alternative seems to be staying logged in to LastPass which means it's just my four digit phone pin to get access to everything. I mean, I guess if someone takes my phone and bypasses my PIN then I've already lost basically everything. But at least I wouldn't also be signing them into my bank account. My phone doesn't have biometrics which I think would be my compromise if it had them.

deleted 8y ago
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robin_reala 8y ago
Yeah, it’s painful without biometrics. For my threat model I’m happy enough to use TouchID on Mac and FaceID on my iPhone to unlock, and then to type in on the occasional time I need to unlock it manually.
misterpigs 8y ago
I use 1pass on my phone. I have a long password (English phrase) that I only use with 1pass I guess I've entered it enough times on mobile that I don't mistype it often. I use it to generate new passwords for whatever signups/apps I need on mobile, also for logging into websites on mobile. The workflow for password managers in mobile safari works very well. I don't enable FaceID/TouchID/PIN for 1Password, but I do have it enabled for my device.
dwg 8y ago
Aside from using biometrics, which makes it much easier, you might consider using a long passphrase as the master password. A passphrase is easier to remember and to type than random characters. It’s what I do, and it’s pretty easy to type without mistakes on mobile too.

jedisct1 8y ago

I use Enpass. $10 once for mobile devices, free everywhere else, can use Dropbox/iCloud/Google Drive for password storage, no need for any subscription whatsoever. And it can seamlessly import 1Password databases.

czbond 8y ago
Their approach is interesting; I currently use KeePassX and mobile was a huge pain. Thank you for posting about Enpass - going to try that out.

8ytecoder 8y ago

Both iOS and Mac App stores need options to allow developers to offer trials and paid upgrades.

pier25 8y ago
And easy refunds. On Android if you uninstall an app before 2 hours after buying it, you get an automatic refund.

rmorey 8y ago

Why are people so vehemently opposed to the 1PW cloud sync service? For unenrypted data, I completely understand this. And in general, it's great to have the option to sync using whatever service you want. But the data that 1PW stores is encrypted up the wazoo and AB couldn't extract your passwords from it even if they wanted to. In their security document they even outline how useless it would be for a bad actor to even steal every bit of data they have. And if some day their data center suddenly explodes and all that data is lost, your data is cached on all your devices anyway, and it's trivial to just export to another password manager. Am I mistaken?

nighthawk1 8y ago
I’d rather control the data myself. I view cloud hosted password providers as huge attack targets and they generally get hacked eventually (roboform, lastpass,etc). At least if you control where the data is stored your data can be kept off the radar so to speak.
- y_molodtsov 8y ago
  As far as I remember nobody really had any problems after the LastPass hack, since the data was encrypted anyway?
rcarmo 8y ago
Relying on a small, niche service to host something you rely upon daily is simply not a good long-term decision. I’d much rather rely on OneDrive or Dropbox for syncing, since the likelihood of their going away suddenly or being acquired by someone else who will tank the service is smaller. Not impossible, but more unlikely.
SpaethCo 8y ago
The key issue I have with the cloud service right now is it breaks the automated backup process I get with iCloud sync and their Mac client. My biggest concern isn't bad actor data theft or online service outages, it's silent corruption of data that takes weeks / months to surface. With iCloud sync of a local vault, the client will automatically store backup copies of the database on the local filesystem. I can sync that file to local ZFS NAS storage and to offsite storage to maintain months/years of archives as desired. Until there is an automated export/backup option with the Agilebits sync serivce, it's off the table for me.

alexnewman 8y ago

I still have no idea why people don't use pass. I put my trust in gpg and git

mychael 8y ago
link?
- Spivak 8y ago
  https://www.passwordstore.org/ https://www.passwordstore.org/

cdumler 8y ago

So, I'll join the chorus here by saying that I've picked up the subscription fee. I've been using their software daily for over three years. During that time, they have consistently improved their product and have been open about issues (as far as I am concerned). I was a little irked when I saw the subscription model. I was like, "hey, I paid for this." So, I looked up how much I paid in licenses by looking them up.. in 1Password. Turns out I paid about $40 for the Mac, Windows, iOS, and Android clients. That's $40 over three years for something that I use daily. Then, look at the $5/mo subscription for families. I get something that gives me access to all their software versions (Mac, Windows, iOS and Android) for five people, my entire family (if my cat ever decides to get a computer). I am a software professional. I pay for tools that keep me going and return me money because they offer me productivity. I pay for Things, Bear, iThoughts, and may other apps that have helped me greatly. One important statement I make to people is: _the price for security is eternal vigilance_. There are always new ways things get attacked and new ways to be more secure. I realized that I was gladly willing to pay $60/year to keep me and my family going while keeping AgileBits running as well. If there was anything that deserves a subscription, it is your security software. If its any consolation, several of my developer friends feel the same way. My two cents.

jiveturkey 8y ago
not just that there’s a cost to keeping this kind of software useful, for the subscription agilebits is actually adding value. unlike say adobe.
archagon 8y ago
As time goes on, I've gotten less and less comfortable using proprietary software for critical tasks. If 1Password were open source, I'd actually be pretty happy to subscribe. But as it stands, I have no faith that the product won't change out from under me in the future, whether due to a pivot, an acquisition, or some other reason. The incentives align in favor of the business, not the customer. IMHO, subscriptions are already pointing in that direction. I'd rather use something like pass and deal with the downsides. (Though I admittedly haven't switched yet.)
- 8y ago

mderazon 8y ago

I never liked 1pass. I don't like the fact that you have to install a desktop app to use the browser extension. Also the UI is a bit annoying and sometimes it feels like it just gets in my way. The UX for multiple vaults is not so obvious at times and you don't realize you are only searching one vault instead of everything. Copying and sharing between vaults is also annoying. I really don't see what 1pass does better than LastPass. LP has a bad security reputation but other than that it's much more enjoyable to use

kbar13 8y ago
security software > I really don't see what 1pass does better than LastPass > LP has a bad security reputation
- mderazon 8y ago
  Is there any reason to believe LP is currently less secure than 1pass? If anything, I assume LP has been more thoroughly audited by now
  - roustem 8y ago
    Does it still send unencrypted item URLs to the server?
y_molodtsov 8y ago
1password seems to have better apps and is supported by multiple apps on iOS.
roustem 8y ago
Good news! With 1Password X you can use it without installing the desktop app: https://blog.agilebits.com/2017/11/13/1password-x-a-look-at-the-future-of-1password-in-the-browser/ https://blog.agilebits.com/2017/11/13/1password-x-a-look-at-...
- mderazon 8y ago

jarym 8y ago

The reason I won’t go for a subscription is because I don’t want to find myself locked out of my password manager if I stop paying the subscription. With IntelliJ (JetBrains) I get perpetual fallback and that makes me super comfortable with a subscription model. Will AgileBits offer perpetual fallback? I doubt it. Their product works well but their marketing team are a let down.

thejj100100 8y ago
You're not locked out of 1Password, you just can't add new items iirc.
ixtli 8y ago
Thank you for this comment. JetBrains subscription also drops in price over time to reward you for continued patronage. It's the only subscription model i've ever been comfortable with.
roustem 8y ago
You do not lose access to your data when you stop paying for the subscription. It switches to read-only mode.
sigzero 8y ago
You aren't locked out. It becomes read online and you can export it at that point.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

vira28 8y ago

I couldn't have asked this question at a much better time. Would appreciate your feedback. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17111650 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17111650

stirner 8y ago

The Mac App Store makes it impossible to charge for software customers have already paid for? Tragic.

scarface74 8y ago
Not impossible, hackish. You can emulate upgrade pricing via bundles. If you sold V1 for $5.00 and then you want to sell V2 to new customers for $5.00 but existing customers. You can bundle the two versions for $8.00 and in the description for V1 you tell them that version 2 is available and don't buy it. You tell customers that have bought V1 already to get the bundle for $3.
- nodamage 8y ago
  I thought bundles were only available on iOS, not Mac?
  - scarface74 8y ago
    You are absolutely right. Yet another reason the Mac App Store is a dumpster fire....
- stirner 8y ago
  That's an interesting workaround. The question I meant to raise was whether a workaround is justified, or whether software developers should just maintain the apps they sell.
  - scarface74 8y ago
    It depends. If your app can work within the sandbox and it's a one and done like a game, maybe. The Mac platform changes so slowly you don't have to worry as much about incompatibility with s new OS as you do iOS. But if you ever want paid upgrades or you are already a well known app -no. For instance it wouldn't make any sense for MS or Adobe to be in the Mac App Store.
bwoodruff 8y ago

lemoncucumber 8y ago

So for the Mac client, the options are to either subscribe or buy a standalone license directly from AgileBits. But what is the upgrade path for futures versions of the iOS client if you choose not to subscribe?

bwoodruff 8y ago
1Password for iOS was just upgraded to v7 and was not a paid upgrade (anyone who had previously purchased received the upgrade free of charge). As for what the future will bring, having just recently launched v7, it is a bit early to say. Ben Woodruff AgileBits

f311a 8y ago

Can someone clarify? Can I use transfer my appstore non-subscription license?

bwoodruff 8y ago
I’m not entirely sure what you’re asking, but 1Password 7 is a separate purchase, unless you’re using a subscription (then it is included in your subscription). There is no transfer of licenses from v6 to v7. Does that help? Ben Woodruff AgileBits

vbezhenar 8y ago

1Password for Mac and iOS worked flawlessly. But I recently migrated to Windows and installed 1Password 6 for Windows. It's just bad software. It's not responsive (I'm pressing "Save" and it works for a second or two, while I'm expecting it to respond instantly), it has some obvious UI bugs, but worse of all, it crashes very often, I don't remember a single program that crashes so much. It just feels very unpolished. I'm waiting for 7-th version to try it. I thought about BitWarden but I don't really like its technologies. It uses .NET for server which is not very native for Linux. It uses JavaScript for client which I don't like at all. I wish it used something like Go or Java for server and .NET for client. So far my primary candidate to switch is KeePass. I don't like it a lot, but at least it works and it's reliable.

xxkylexx 8y ago
.NET Core is just as native as Java on Linux...
- vbezhenar 8y ago
  I happen to be Java developer, so for me personally Java is fine. But yes, something like Go or Rust would be even better.
roustem 8y ago
I am sorry to hear about the bad experience with 1Password 6! I was using 1Password 7 beta for the past few months and it worked well, we hope to release it in a few days. If you have a problem, please do not hesitate to send us an email or live a message in our discussion forum: https://discussions.agilebits.com/ https://discussions.agilebits.com/ We do our best to reply to every message in 24 hours

ggm 8y ago

There is a non-subscription, licence-purchase model. They basically obfuscate it, (ok: kinder is "don't market it strongly") But there IS a licence model. So mainly, the issue is how "hard" they make it to find. That, and the 'dont be evil, but hey, we changed our minds a bit' aspect to what was said in the past and now emerges. The APP store doesn't help, but I think its ass-backwards to use that to "sell" the subscription model. Honestly? I could come into this now and not care, but as a licence holder, the way its being done irks me. Just make it easier to find the licence option on the web page and in your apps, and I'll be good.

AGKyle 8y ago
Making it easier to find is a double edged sword and the reason why it's harder to find now. If we make it easy to find it will cause confusion for users about which to get. When we did this in the past we had a lot of users who thought they had to have both and as such would purchase both. This led to a lot of refunds on our part and explanation for which they should get. Turns out most users are perfectly happy and will benefit greatly from the subscription side. This site and a couple of other places being the exception to this as many of you seem to prefer licenses which means this aggravates you all, but for the average person the benefit greatly from the subscription side and it's the one they often choose when we explain the benefits of each. So making it easier to find puts that problem back on the table and quite frankly, it's something I'd really personally rather not deal with like before. It's easy to say differently until you have hundreds of users at any given time looking for help with what to buy or you accidentally find out they purchased both while helping them with some other unrelated thing. The Mac App Store makes sense for subscriptions though. They will always have access to the latest version so long as the subscription is active, so we don't have to deal with upgrade pricing there. For license users though it's not as clear cut. We can either issue a new app each time but we can't advertise the new version in the old version (rules) and this will end up with a lot of users not knowing there's a new version out. Subscription users will also have to upgrade manually each time and that's not convenient for them at all given they're entitled to that new version as part of their subscription. We're trying to make it easy, though it's going to be difficult this time because we do have to get license users to switch entirely to our direct download version. Once this is done though, subscription users can use either or, whichever they want. License users will always use our direct download version. When an upgrade comes out our subscription users will always be upgraded to the latest version without issues. Our license users will be prompted to upgrade or be informed of the upgrade in some way. This is how it should work, unfortunately it was not possible to do this for the Mac App Store so we had to make changes there. Perhaps things change with the Mac App Store in the future and we can bring back both, but for now, this new method we're using provides the best user experience for both sides, once the switch is made. I'll be the first to admit I hate removing choice from the equation here, and I hate that we have to get users to do work in the first place. But sometimes there are things outside of your ability to control and this is one of them for us. Hope that gives some additional insight that wasn't present in the blog post though. Kyle AgileBits

Angostura 8y ago

Assuming in the Apple ecosystem only, is there any reason to go for this rather that the in-built Keychain?

stock_toaster 8y ago

New version of the MacOS desktop app appears to require at least Sierra. Hope the current version still works with "1Password Families" for a while (as I'm stuck on El Cap due to older hardware).

mark_l_watson 8y ago

1Password is a good product - I used it for a trial period a few years ago. I ended up going with SpiderOak's Encryptr: open source and free. In any case, I try to get family and friends to use a password tool like 1Password, Encryptr, etc. It drives me crazy when people re-use the same low-entropy password for everything.

KiDD 8y ago

Never gonna pay to upgrade again...

twodayslate 8y ago

So if you are on a Family plan now and pay monthly you have to also pay monthly for the app?

roustem 8y ago
No. If you are on a Family plan then all apps and updates are included in the subscription price.

sigzero 8y ago

You can still buy a standalone license from the website directly. That's probably what I will do or I will find something else.

dvcrn 8y ago

I love 1Password and immediately bought a standalone 1P7 license when they started with the beta. I agree with some others that they bury the hell out of the standalone one and want people to go for the subscription, but as long as I still have my standalone one, I am a happy customer. 7 looks and feels great, and for a software that I used for years and years since I first bought my license, this upgrade felt justified. I in no way felt I had to upgrade though and could have just sticked with 6. My only worry is that with 8, it might become subscription only for good... (Please don't!!)

jsgo 8y ago

At this point, I'm not upset about this as I previously subscribed, but I'm at the point now where I'm thinking of bolting because it has become a pain. At this point, I just need to find something that is secure, portable, can be backed up, and cross platform. The syncing experience since at least 6 has been spotty between my Windows client, my iPhone, and my iPad. I can't tell you how many times I've had to reset a password because the device I was on didn't have the current gibberish password. Maybe I'm holding it wrong, but using the create login -> password generation bit does not sync at all. There's also the issue that every time I shutdown my Windows PC, I am greeted with an alert that AgileBits.1Password (there's another dot-separated part in the name as well, not sure what or specifically where) there was some issue in it that I have to close to shutdown. With all that being said, I don't think Agile Bits is a bad company or that the subscription model is evil or anything of that nature. I think they're pretty decent people that are trying to keep the company profitable and alive. Paying for updates for password managers probably isn't the sexiest business model on either side of the equation. I would prefer that once I pay for it, it could function at that level (with maybe bug fixes) leveraging DropBox, iCloud, OneDrive, whatever, but I also understand they felt the need to cut it off and keep it relatively simple. It just isn't for me anymore.

bwoodruff 8y ago
Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts. I understand your perspective, and I’m sorry to hear that ultimately 1Password did not work out for you. One of the primary reasons we built 1Password memberships was because of difficulties faced by customers in syncing with 3rd party services, and difficulties faced by our customer service team in troubleshooting those services (often black boxes). Ben Woodruff AgileBits

indemnity 8y ago

I thought I'd check out the beta, but what I didn't like about it is that it didn't even let me know the standalone approach was an option, Before I'd known what happened it had imported my previous passwords from the standalone version I had before and uploaded them to my 1Password.com account. Pretty unhappy about this, I make it sync to iCloud because it's basically the only cloud provider I somewhat trust. I do not want a bloody 1Password.com account. How do I now know they've really deleted my data slurped into 1Password.com?

Khaine 8y ago

I'm not sure how the subscription model makes sense for a password manager. In general, I'm not a fan of the subscription model. I hate the trend towards subscription. I can imagine a day, when I pay $5 a month for a password manager, $5 a month for office, $5 for slack, $5 for a to do manager, $5 fr a mail product, $10 for an internet browser, and after all that having no money for anything else.

bwoodruff 8y ago
Speaking strictly in terms of money... How much would you pay for a license? $65? So what does that work out to if we release an upgrade every 2 - 2.5 years? About $30 / yr, right? That is about what a subscription costs as well, but the subscription includes access to the apps on all platforms, as well as other features not available with a license. For most people, especially 1Password Families customers, the subscription option is going to be less expensive. This is a reflection of the amount of support required on average by license customers vs subscription customers. Ben Woodruff AgileBits
- Khaine 8y ago
  I understand the logic behind the value of a subscription. Personally, I am more comfortable 'owning' my software than having a subscription to it.

isarat 8y ago

I was skeptical about going for subscription. I started when I travelled abroad where I followed Basecamp’s travel tips (handbook). Things have changed when I started using 1Password 7 and 1Password X. The apps is very polished and pretty handy. I use Linux a lot these days and 1PX and CLI is very helpful. Never regretted the cloud update upgrade.

serbrech 8y ago

I've been staying on v4.x to keep the sync to dropbox. I don't want to used their hosted service. I don't want my master password to transit over the internet and its hash to be stored in a db, no matter how secure they are. Centralizing this makes it a target of attack. There is no way a hacker will try to get my credential unless he targets me personally, and there is little to no reason for this to happen. It does exactly what I need it to do. I don't need all the fancy other additional features. :(

bwoodruff 8y ago
Your Master Password is never transmitted or stored hashed in a database. Please check out our security whitepaper. http://1pw.ca/whitepaper http://1pw.ca/whitepaper Ben Woodruff AgileBits

lancewiggs 8y ago

Sending any information to Agilebits besides payment requires a whole lot more trust - and stuffing over customers was not the way to earn it. So no - I don’t trust them anymore. I’ve reccomended 1password to hundreds of people, so it’s sad to see the decline. I would and did accept a simple annual new paid version - but the upgrades seemed to to remove/hide the basics like Dropbox sync or one location for passwords. So now there is a gap in the market for a paid easy to install and sync password manager that makes it trivial to store data locally. Surely they are a lot easier to create now?

tomerbd 8y ago

Why not just use keepassx for Mac with parallel versions on for iOS Android with cloud sync can someone explain to me? I have everything I need auto complete control strength etc + it's open source.

Jemm 8y ago

At the rate that things in my life are moving to a subscription model, I am going to need a subscription manager more than a password manager.

jpz 8y ago

I bought their software. The software stopped working properly and nagged me to buy a subscription - despite having purchased the full product previously. I lost my interest in being their customer. They did offer my a 1yr subscription for free, but by then I had wasted hours trying to get a new install to work and had lost my goodwill with the product.

MindTooth 8y ago

I think for myself that I won't upgrade. The whole process is a mess when coming from the regular App Store app, and the need to convert, with new apps, sites, etc. The reason I've always loved 1Password was of the convince of signing into App Store, download the app, and just open 1Password, enter the masterpw, and be done with it. I will miss the iCloud-sync and the convenience on Apple-platforms, but I seriously believe that a change is forced.