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It is impossible to sell raw-milk cheese in the United States. Are French cheese makers overreacting by simply choosing not to do business here rather than cha

It is impossible to sell raw-milk cheese in the United States. Are French cheese makers overreacting by simply choosing not to do business here rather than change their centuries-old production techniques? It is illegal to sell kinder eggs in the US, because of some law that involves children accidentally swallowing toys. Is Kinder overreacting by refusing to sell those candies here? You cannot buy Bovril in the US, because of a panic about mad cow disease from 20 years ago. Are the manufacturers of bovril overreacting by refusing to create a separate production facility that uses only beef sourced from outside the UK? Compliance with laws outside your primary market has a cost, and potentially a benefit. Every business, large or small, is going to do that cost-benefit analysis, and make their own decisions. As an american I can hardly blame the Kinder people for failing to provide me with convenient access to chocolate eggs containing plastic toys. It's my government, and the laws they've put in place that have had that effect.

pvg 8y ago
Unlike your examples, GDPR bans neither messenger apps nor Monal in particular.
- fcbrooklyn 8y ago
  Indeed. And the prohibition on raw milk does not ban cheese. Many cheeses from France are still available, because they do not involve raw milk. The EU has passed a law, perhaps it is a worthwhile law. This is one of the consequences. The ban on raw milk in cheese making exists thanks to (presumably) the best intentions, and the end result is that there are many cheeses I would like to buy, that I cannot. An American (unlike me) who supports such a ban rejoices in the fact that we are protected from these dangerous french cheeses. Perhaps you rejoice that you are protected from the dangerous GDPR non-compliant Monal.
  - pvg 8y ago
    Running further with a bad analogy doesn't make the analogy any better or more relevant to the GP comment.
    - fcbrooklyn 8y ago
      Apologies, I genuinely don't understand this critique.
      - pvg 8y ago
        GDRP doesn't ban the milk from which messengers are churned at the messenger mills either.
        fcbrooklyn 8y ago
        Still in the dark mate. I'm sorry, maybe it's me, maybe it's you, but we seem to be speaking a different language.
        pvg 8y ago
        It's you. The original comment says 'The author of Monal misunderstands/misrepresents the regulation and is throwing a silly tizzy'. To which you say 'some laws ban some things. also, cheese is made of milk'. These things are true but not related to the GDRP or messengers.
        monkeywork 8y ago
        ... unsure if troll or just slow. parent was giving an example of how Monal isn't "throwing a silly tizzy" ... instead they have deemed the cost of complying with the regulations (all the items listed in the article) not worth the reward, much like how raw milk cheese companies decided to not sell in America because it was not worth the cost to comply (change practices, open different facility) with the regulations. The point being that doing that cost / benefit break down is totally reasonable and it's not "throwing a silly tizzy" to decide if you want to engage in a market that is increasing your costs beyond what you think you'll get in return. None of this has any judgement on the value/reason/justification of the regulation - simply it increased costs more than this company thought they could get back out of being compliant there so they removed themselves from that market.
  - mpweiher 8y ago
    > the prohibition on raw milk does not ban cheese. It bans "raw-milk cheese", which is a distinct kind of product, not one way of many to make a particular product ("cheese"). If you ban raw milk, you ban certain types of product entirely, and there is no workaround. It would be like saying a prohibition on planes does not ban automobiles, and after all, both are a kind of vehicle. True, but not really relevant. Back to the GDPR case, it's closer to a producer of pasteurized-milk-cheese saying they are going to get out of the cheese business altogether because of the ban on raw-milk-cheese, and labeling their cheese as such and documenting however briefly that the cheese is made out of pasteurized milk is just too much effort, and they are afraid of being sued by people claiming it is raw-milk-cheese. Whatever.
    - esrauch 8y ago
      No analogy is perfect. In this case, there are questions that legitimately have no definitive answer (like what is "large scale"), so it is more like the cheese maker genuinely doesn't know whether their milk would be audited as raw-milk or not, and even if they consult with a lawyer they still don't have confidence that they would know.
- llcoolv 8y ago
  If you read the article, you would find out that this is the essence basically. "As GDPR approaches, I get the impression that it is an end of an era for the internet. The days of someone making something, putting it on the internet and offering it to the world seem to be over. " And this particular thing GDPR ruins pretty goddamn well.
  - DmenshunlAnlsis 8y ago
    Bullshit. That era existed before everything was analyzed and monetized and PII was packaged and sold as a commodity. GDPR ruins invasion of privacy for profit.
    - gonzo 8y ago
      and open source.
      - DmenshunlAnlsis 8y ago
        Nothing about open source depends on invasion of privacy, unless what you’re open sourcing is data mining the public, in which case... blow.
jacquesm 8y ago
Thank you for making a coherent argument. You are missing one point I think: if not for those regulations those companies would love to do business. They are forbidden from doing business, this guy sees the law and runs off without even trying to become compliant. That's a different thing. There is no way that Kinder could be compliant with US law in such a way that they would not be exposed to what - to EU sensibilities - amount to exorbitant damage claims. Similar arguments apply to the other examples you use, I see your point and there are valid reasons to not enter a certain market because of the legal climate there but the point I am trying to make is that the OP has not raise any valid point at all other than 'I don't want to comply'. And that's fine by me but then don't bother dressing it up in a bunch of made up requirements.
- fcbrooklyn 8y ago
  Bovril could easily comply. They would simply have to open a manufacturing facility that did not use UK beef. The French cheese makers could sort of comply, by pasteurizing their milk. Kinder, I admit, has a more difficult problem, and has, in fact attempted to comply, by creating a completely different product with the same name.
  - dogecoinbase 8y ago
    Ah yes, "simply" open a manufacturing facility.
    - fcbrooklyn 8y ago
      There will be a cost involved. And presumably there will be some benefits that result. Those are precisely the parameters of OP's decision.
  - CaptainZapp 8y ago
    "The French cheese makers could sort of comply, by pasteurizing their milk" And why should the French cripple a delicious and traditional product, which is gladly gobbled up by millions of happy consumers to sell their product in the US?
davidgay 8y ago
> It is impossible to sell raw-milk cheese in the United States. I've bought plenty of raw mil cheeses (domestic and imported) in the US. http://www.realrawmilkfacts.com/raw-milk-regulations http://www.realrawmilkfacts.com/raw-milk-regulations says: "In 1987, the FDA mandated pasteurization of all milk and milk products for human consumption, effectively banning the shipment of raw milk in interstate commerce with the exception of cheese made from raw milk, provided the cheese has been aged a minimum of 60 days and is clearly labeled as unpasteurized." As many cheeses are aged more than 60 days, the ban on "raw-milk cheeses" is basically an urban myth.
- jkaplowitz 8y ago
  Oh it's real enough, since there are also plenty of cheeses which are aged under 60 days and not traditionally pasteurized. It's also relevant for making yogurt and butter in traditional ways, though one can start with pasteurized and get an okay enough result. But as I said in another reply to the parent poster, there are states which allow raw milk products in intrastate (but not interstate) commerce. [Edit: Wow my text got mangled by autocorrect. Fixed so that it makes sense now!]
youwishboye 8y ago
Your argument makes no sense. If it's illegal to sell something in the US, then those companies are not "refusing" to sell their products there, they are complying with the law.
jdietrich 8y ago
>Is Kinder overreacting by refusing to sell those candies here? Kinder make a different version of the Kinder Egg specifically to comply with US law. https://www.kinder.com/us/en/kinder-joy https://www.kinder.com/us/en/kinder-joy >Are the manufacturers of bovril overreacting by refusing to create a separate production facility that uses only beef sourced from outside the UK? Bovril was briefly made without any beef content because of the BSE issue. https://web.archive.org/web/20071201114613/http://www.unilever.co.uk/ourbrands/cookingandeating/bovrilbeefsup.asp https://web.archive.org/web/20071201114613/http://www.unilev...
EamonnMR 8y ago
I have good news for you about kinder eggs: they're no longer banned.[1] There's a store in Harvard Square that has about twenty different kinds. Sadly, they appear to be all licensed stuff now. https://www.npr.org/2017/05/26/530257536/after-being-banned-kinder-eggs-are-coming-to-america https://www.npr.org/2017/05/26/530257536/after-being-banned-...
dragonwriter 8y ago
> It is impossible to sell raw-milk cheese in the United States No, it's not, but it is legally imposible to import them, and trade them in interstate commerce (many—I think still a majority—of states allow raw milk and raw milk products, though the FDA prohibits most directly and sets standards which effectively prohibit the rest in interstate commerce, including foreign imports.) Not that that really changes the point you are illustrating.

pvg 8y ago

Unlike your examples, GDPR bans neither messenger apps nor Monal in particular.

fcbrooklyn 8y ago
Indeed. And the prohibition on raw milk does not ban cheese. Many cheeses from France are still available, because they do not involve raw milk. The EU has passed a law, perhaps it is a worthwhile law. This is one of the consequences. The ban on raw milk in cheese making exists thanks to (presumably) the best intentions, and the end result is that there are many cheeses I would like to buy, that I cannot. An American (unlike me) who supports such a ban rejoices in the fact that we are protected from these dangerous french cheeses. Perhaps you rejoice that you are protected from the dangerous GDPR non-compliant Monal.
- pvg 8y ago
  Running further with a bad analogy doesn't make the analogy any better or more relevant to the GP comment.
  - fcbrooklyn 8y ago
    Apologies, I genuinely don't understand this critique.
    - pvg 8y ago
      GDRP doesn't ban the milk from which messengers are churned at the messenger mills either.
      - fcbrooklyn 8y ago
        Still in the dark mate. I'm sorry, maybe it's me, maybe it's you, but we seem to be speaking a different language.
        pvg 8y ago
        It's you. The original comment says 'The author of Monal misunderstands/misrepresents the regulation and is throwing a silly tizzy'. To which you say 'some laws ban some things. also, cheese is made of milk'. These things are true but not related to the GDRP or messengers.
        monkeywork 8y ago
        ... unsure if troll or just slow. parent was giving an example of how Monal isn't "throwing a silly tizzy" ... instead they have deemed the cost of complying with the regulations (all the items listed in the article) not worth the reward, much like how raw milk cheese companies decided to not sell in America because it was not worth the cost to comply (change practices, open different facility) with the regulations. The point being that doing that cost / benefit break down is totally reasonable and it's not "throwing a silly tizzy" to decide if you want to engage in a market that is increasing your costs beyond what you think you'll get in return. None of this has any judgement on the value/reason/justification of the regulation - simply it increased costs more than this company thought they could get back out of being compliant there so they removed themselves from that market.
- mpweiher 8y ago
  > the prohibition on raw milk does not ban cheese. It bans "raw-milk cheese", which is a distinct kind of product, not one way of many to make a particular product ("cheese"). If you ban raw milk, you ban certain types of product entirely, and there is no workaround. It would be like saying a prohibition on planes does not ban automobiles, and after all, both are a kind of vehicle. True, but not really relevant. Back to the GDPR case, it's closer to a producer of pasteurized-milk-cheese saying they are going to get out of the cheese business altogether because of the ban on raw-milk-cheese, and labeling their cheese as such and documenting however briefly that the cheese is made out of pasteurized milk is just too much effort, and they are afraid of being sued by people claiming it is raw-milk-cheese. Whatever.
  - esrauch 8y ago
    No analogy is perfect. In this case, there are questions that legitimately have no definitive answer (like what is "large scale"), so it is more like the cheese maker genuinely doesn't know whether their milk would be audited as raw-milk or not, and even if they consult with a lawyer they still don't have confidence that they would know.
llcoolv 8y ago
If you read the article, you would find out that this is the essence basically. "As GDPR approaches, I get the impression that it is an end of an era for the internet. The days of someone making something, putting it on the internet and offering it to the world seem to be over. " And this particular thing GDPR ruins pretty goddamn well.
- DmenshunlAnlsis 8y ago
  Bullshit. That era existed before everything was analyzed and monetized and PII was packaged and sold as a commodity. GDPR ruins invasion of privacy for profit.
  - gonzo 8y ago
    and open source.
    - DmenshunlAnlsis 8y ago
      Nothing about open source depends on invasion of privacy, unless what you’re open sourcing is data mining the public, in which case... blow.

jacquesm 8y ago

Thank you for making a coherent argument. You are missing one point I think: if not for those regulations those companies would love to do business. They are forbidden from doing business, this guy sees the law and runs off without even trying to become compliant. That's a different thing. There is no way that Kinder could be compliant with US law in such a way that they would not be exposed to what - to EU sensibilities - amount to exorbitant damage claims. Similar arguments apply to the other examples you use, I see your point and there are valid reasons to not enter a certain market because of the legal climate there but the point I am trying to make is that the OP has not raise any valid point at all other than 'I don't want to comply'. And that's fine by me but then don't bother dressing it up in a bunch of made up requirements.

fcbrooklyn 8y ago
Bovril could easily comply. They would simply have to open a manufacturing facility that did not use UK beef. The French cheese makers could sort of comply, by pasteurizing their milk. Kinder, I admit, has a more difficult problem, and has, in fact attempted to comply, by creating a completely different product with the same name.
- dogecoinbase 8y ago
  Ah yes, "simply" open a manufacturing facility.
  - fcbrooklyn 8y ago
    There will be a cost involved. And presumably there will be some benefits that result. Those are precisely the parameters of OP's decision.
- CaptainZapp 8y ago
  "The French cheese makers could sort of comply, by pasteurizing their milk" And why should the French cripple a delicious and traditional product, which is gladly gobbled up by millions of happy consumers to sell their product in the US?

davidgay 8y ago

> It is impossible to sell raw-milk cheese in the United States. I've bought plenty of raw mil cheeses (domestic and imported) in the US. http://www.realrawmilkfacts.com/raw-milk-regulations http://www.realrawmilkfacts.com/raw-milk-regulations says: "In 1987, the FDA mandated pasteurization of all milk and milk products for human consumption, effectively banning the shipment of raw milk in interstate commerce with the exception of cheese made from raw milk, provided the cheese has been aged a minimum of 60 days and is clearly labeled as unpasteurized." As many cheeses are aged more than 60 days, the ban on "raw-milk cheeses" is basically an urban myth.

jkaplowitz 8y ago
Oh it's real enough, since there are also plenty of cheeses which are aged under 60 days and not traditionally pasteurized. It's also relevant for making yogurt and butter in traditional ways, though one can start with pasteurized and get an okay enough result. But as I said in another reply to the parent poster, there are states which allow raw milk products in intrastate (but not interstate) commerce. [Edit: Wow my text got mangled by autocorrect. Fixed so that it makes sense now!]

youwishboye 8y ago

Your argument makes no sense. If it's illegal to sell something in the US, then those companies are not "refusing" to sell their products there, they are complying with the law.

jdietrich 8y ago

>Is Kinder overreacting by refusing to sell those candies here? Kinder make a different version of the Kinder Egg specifically to comply with US law. https://www.kinder.com/us/en/kinder-joy https://www.kinder.com/us/en/kinder-joy >Are the manufacturers of bovril overreacting by refusing to create a separate production facility that uses only beef sourced from outside the UK? Bovril was briefly made without any beef content because of the BSE issue. https://web.archive.org/web/20071201114613/http://www.unilever.co.uk/ourbrands/cookingandeating/bovrilbeefsup.asp https://web.archive.org/web/20071201114613/http://www.unilev...

EamonnMR 8y ago

I have good news for you about kinder eggs: they're no longer banned.[1] There's a store in Harvard Square that has about twenty different kinds. Sadly, they appear to be all licensed stuff now. https://www.npr.org/2017/05/26/530257536/after-being-banned-kinder-eggs-are-coming-to-america https://www.npr.org/2017/05/26/530257536/after-being-banned-...

dragonwriter 8y ago

> It is impossible to sell raw-milk cheese in the United States No, it's not, but it is legally imposible to import them, and trade them in interstate commerce (many—I think still a majority—of states allow raw milk and raw milk products, though the FDA prohibits most directly and sets standards which effectively prohibit the rest in interstate commerce, including foreign imports.) Not that that really changes the point you are illustrating.