9 ms·

I don't see the value in large numbers of unskilled workers entering the US every year. With a potentially large wave of automation coming, the US shouldn't st

I don't see the value in large numbers of unskilled workers entering the US every year. With a potentially large wave of automation coming, the US shouldn't straddled itself with lots of unemployable drivers, farm workers, etc. I hope we can move to a much more sensible immigration system, similar to Canada's, for example.

cm2012 8y ago
Immigrants to the US have the same level of college completion as natives: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/05/03/key-findings-about-u-s-immigrants/ft_17-05-03_immigrants_education_2/ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/05/03/key-findings...
- toomuchtodo 8y ago
  Illegal immigrants usually do not (under the table, off the books unskilled labor), and are in the US in large numbers (millions). Not a sleight, just facts.
  - achompas 8y ago
    I don't know that I would claim either of these things off-the-cuff in response to a post citing the ACS.
    - traek 8y ago
      It's easily verifiable, see [1] under "Educational Attainment of Adults". 13% of unauthorized immigrants have completed college, as compared to 31% of US-born and 30% of authorized immigrants. [1] https://www.migrationpolicy.org/data/unauthorized-immigrant-population/state/US https://www.migrationpolicy.org/data/unauthorized-immigrant-...
      - achompas 8y ago
        Thank you for the link.
  - madamelic 8y ago
    Also, a fact is that illegal immigrants are willing to work for dirt-cheap which subsidizes our produce price. :) https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/food/in-an-immigration-crackdown-who-will-pick-our-produce/2017/03/17/cc1c6df4-0a5d-11e7-93dc-00f9bdd74ed1_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.2ff4106d08ed https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/food/in-an-immigrat...
    - nostromo 8y ago
      Cheap produce is awesome. :) But working people not being able to find jobs because they're competing with dirt-cheap no-benefit laborers is not. :(
      - magic_beans 8y ago
        These working people who can't find jobs are addicted to opiates or refuse to educate themselves. Dirt cheap illegal laborers slave over jobs a white American would never, ever do.
        loggedinmyphone 8y ago
        Any system that creates winners also creates losers.
        unepipe 8y ago
        Not true.
        loggedinmyphone 8y ago
        Counterexample?
        Pulcinella 8y ago
        Systems of water sanitation, unless you want to count cholera and dysentery as losers.
  - slg 8y ago
    That is in large part a selection problem. Educated or skilled workers generally have an easier time immigrating legally so it is only natural for those here illegally to be less educated or skilled.
  - r00fus 8y ago
    Not all immigrants are undocumented (what you call illegal). The current US policy by this administration is causing even documented immigrants to reconsider or just give up and leave.
    - the_svd_doctor 8y ago
      Unfortunately yes. I'm what you would call a (potential) high-skilled immigrant (STEM Phd soon completed at top tier college). Clearly, the current policies don't make me want to stay. The path to permanent residency (i.e. proper immigration) is getting harder and harder. No longer that two days ago we got an email about "public charges" (i.e. -legal- public help that would make Dhs/State consider us a burden to the US) and how we should be careful not to use those while in the US, otherwise we can get denied entry/visa. Yikes.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - tropo 8y ago
      The official legal term: "illegal alien" Hardly any are undocumented. Of course, for many the documents are forged. Maybe they have your social security number; hope you don't mind! BTW, identity theft is illegal. Oh, also, in all states and countries an unregistered firearm is not illegal. It is undocumented. If I enter your home without permission, I'm an undocumented resident.
  - wmeredith 8y ago
    Source?
- mieseratte 8y ago
  I'm amazed at how skewed South / Central America is to all other regions!
  - oblio 8y ago
    They're the closest. For the other's it's a major investment to move so far.
mieseratte 8y ago
> I hope we can move to a much more sensible immigration system, similar to Canada's, for example. We have a decent immigration system in terms of getting the right kinds of advanced folks. The problem is we are also unwilling to do what needs to be done to stem the tide of unskilled illegal labor that flows into the nation.
- dv_dt 8y ago
  I would posit that the people coming here illegally to work are actually the most entrepreneurial, hard working, can-do people that we should welcome into our society. Judging based on what current socio-economic status they're at is short sighted. You'll see the same thing expressed in HN regarding employees at declining companies, the most desirable employees leave earlier... Though I would add that doing it via a more realistic temporary work visa program would be preferable to encouraging an illegal crossing industry to flourish.
  - mieseratte 8y ago
    > I would posit that the people coming here illegally to work are actually the most entrepreneurial, hard working, can-do people You're not at all wrong, I grew up with a lot of illegal friends. Good number of them have since gone on to become American citizens through hard work and determination and have built good lives for themselves. Maternally, I'm a second generation American. My grandparents came to America post-WWII with nothing but an offer of employment, and ended up retired with the classic condo beach life. The classic story of rags to middle class American riches. There's a reason that's been the American tale, coming to a faraway land in search of prosperity takes drive. We filter for hard workers. The problem is the black-market / underbelly aspects of this pool, and that very desperation and drive that drove them here has them put up with conditions we should be ashamed of be it in California, Iowa, or Appalachia. Businesses exploiting that cheap source of labor drive down the ability for those trying to live a basic American life.
- rubicon33 8y ago
  The biggest counter argument I hear, regularly, is that the "tide" of illegal labor you speak of is NECESSARY. Who will pick strawberries? Who will clean your hotel room? Etc. It's the classic who will do "X" dirty job argument.
loggedinmyphone 8y ago
Europe did the same in importing large numbers of Muslim laborers after WW2. The hope was that they'd either make their money and go back home, or culturally integrate. Many observers will say that neither happened and there's now a difficult social problem in many countries like France.
- dv_dt 8y ago
  America integrated large immigrant waves in it's past, and I doubt anyone would say the Italians, or Irish, or other minorities were not integrated today. Time bridges cultures, and we're the better for it.
  - cheeseomlit 8y ago
    Italians, Irish, and most of the other immigrants from that time were Europeans who had a lot in common with Americans culturally.
    - spamizbad 8y ago
      Not really true, especially for southern Sicilians Italians They shared neither language nor religion (US was overwhelmingly protestant). At the time, they were considered a distinct race from your typical white American due to their Sicilian heritage. Their diet was also significantly different, to the point where some states actually sent out social workers teaching Italian families to cook "American" foods -- the fear being their pasta-heavy diets would prevent them from integrating. Politically, they were far more pro-labor and were viewed as agitators, socialists and anarchists -- far removed from the political mainstream during the roaring 20s. They were hated and feared enough that there was a mass lynching of 11 Italian-Americans in Louisiana.
    - dv_dt 8y ago
      I don't think you're thinking of the historical details to say that in such a blase manner. The path to integration went through periods much more violent and contentious than anything we see today.
dalacv 8y ago
What some people don't realize is that the person emptying your trash bin in the evenings might very well be college educated. Not that they stand a chance of using that education in the US without the appropriate level of English.
- PebblesRox 8y ago
  Yes. For instance, my father-in-law has a PhD but worked as a janitor for a while when he first came to the US, until he could teach himself enough English to land a better job.
diminoten 8y ago
What's the definition of "value" here? For current US citizens? For the world's economy? For some kind of global happiness/prosperity measurement? Each definition changes the answers significantly, I'd think.
losteric 8y ago
Employing immigrants in unskilled labor is a good thing if we're on the cusp of an automation revolution. Immigrants are not citizens - these are employable people who invested in traveling to America because we pay more for their skills. They go home when the market becomes unfavorable. California has never been "straddled" with unemployable farm workers over winter...
gowld 8y ago
Having fewer children neatly solves the problem of unemployment
mlrtime 8y ago
Try getting reasonably priced manual or domestic work in NYC. Workers here are lazy, incompetent and entitled. Compared to large cities in Asia it is difficult to get good workers here. YMMV
cm2012 8y ago
Also, children of immigrants have the highest attainment of all https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0272775713001349 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S02727...
ch4s3 8y ago
> I don't see the value in large numbers of unskilled workers entering the US every year. With a potentially large wave of automation coming, the US shouldn't straddled itself with lots of unemployable drivers, farm workers, etc. Your argument is that the jobs these people do might be automated away so they shouldn't come here. Is that correct? I would counter that many of these jobs can't easily be automated and that these workers are much more adaptable than you give them credit for. You just aren't going to see robots picking strawberries or hanging sheetrock on a large scale anytime soon for economic and technical reasons. Delivery drivers and dishwashers have very low cpaex vs robots that could do the same. These immigrants also start small companies at higher rates than native born Americans. I guess I just don't get the rationale for keeping out low skill workers. The pay for goods an services, provide labor, start businesses, and generally do quite well.
BigChiefSmokem 8y ago
You are not in agriculture and manufacturing then. We want to bring back coal mine jobs but why don't those coal miners start picking strawberries then? Neither requires a higher education or barely any education at all.
- wmeredith 8y ago
  The coal mining stuff is smoke and mirrors. Arby’s employs more people than the entire coal mining industry.
papiandpapi 8y ago
Another nativist who displays his/her prejudice under the guise of Illegal vs legal immigrant.Go spend a year outside of United States and come tell us how your experience looks like.

cm2012 8y ago

Immigrants to the US have the same level of college completion as natives: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/05/03/key-findings-about-u-s-immigrants/ft_17-05-03_immigrants_education_2/ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/05/03/key-findings...

toomuchtodo 8y ago
Illegal immigrants usually do not (under the table, off the books unskilled labor), and are in the US in large numbers (millions). Not a sleight, just facts.
- achompas 8y ago
  I don't know that I would claim either of these things off-the-cuff in response to a post citing the ACS.
  - traek 8y ago
    It's easily verifiable, see [1] under "Educational Attainment of Adults". 13% of unauthorized immigrants have completed college, as compared to 31% of US-born and 30% of authorized immigrants. [1] https://www.migrationpolicy.org/data/unauthorized-immigrant-population/state/US https://www.migrationpolicy.org/data/unauthorized-immigrant-...
    - achompas 8y ago
      Thank you for the link.
- madamelic 8y ago
  Also, a fact is that illegal immigrants are willing to work for dirt-cheap which subsidizes our produce price. :) https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/food/in-an-immigration-crackdown-who-will-pick-our-produce/2017/03/17/cc1c6df4-0a5d-11e7-93dc-00f9bdd74ed1_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.2ff4106d08ed https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/food/in-an-immigrat...
  - nostromo 8y ago
    Cheap produce is awesome. :) But working people not being able to find jobs because they're competing with dirt-cheap no-benefit laborers is not. :(
    - magic_beans 8y ago
      These working people who can't find jobs are addicted to opiates or refuse to educate themselves. Dirt cheap illegal laborers slave over jobs a white American would never, ever do.
      - loggedinmyphone 8y ago
        Any system that creates winners also creates losers.
        unepipe 8y ago
        Not true.
        loggedinmyphone 8y ago
        Counterexample?
        Pulcinella 8y ago
        Systems of water sanitation, unless you want to count cholera and dysentery as losers.
- slg 8y ago
  That is in large part a selection problem. Educated or skilled workers generally have an easier time immigrating legally so it is only natural for those here illegally to be less educated or skilled.
- r00fus 8y ago
  Not all immigrants are undocumented (what you call illegal). The current US policy by this administration is causing even documented immigrants to reconsider or just give up and leave.
  - the_svd_doctor 8y ago
    Unfortunately yes. I'm what you would call a (potential) high-skilled immigrant (STEM Phd soon completed at top tier college). Clearly, the current policies don't make me want to stay. The path to permanent residency (i.e. proper immigration) is getting harder and harder. No longer that two days ago we got an email about "public charges" (i.e. -legal- public help that would make Dhs/State consider us a burden to the US) and how we should be careful not to use those while in the US, otherwise we can get denied entry/visa. Yikes.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - tropo 8y ago
    The official legal term: "illegal alien" Hardly any are undocumented. Of course, for many the documents are forged. Maybe they have your social security number; hope you don't mind! BTW, identity theft is illegal. Oh, also, in all states and countries an unregistered firearm is not illegal. It is undocumented. If I enter your home without permission, I'm an undocumented resident.
- wmeredith 8y ago
  Source?
mieseratte 8y ago
I'm amazed at how skewed South / Central America is to all other regions!
- oblio 8y ago
  They're the closest. For the other's it's a major investment to move so far.

mieseratte 8y ago

> I hope we can move to a much more sensible immigration system, similar to Canada's, for example. We have a decent immigration system in terms of getting the right kinds of advanced folks. The problem is we are also unwilling to do what needs to be done to stem the tide of unskilled illegal labor that flows into the nation.

dv_dt 8y ago
I would posit that the people coming here illegally to work are actually the most entrepreneurial, hard working, can-do people that we should welcome into our society. Judging based on what current socio-economic status they're at is short sighted. You'll see the same thing expressed in HN regarding employees at declining companies, the most desirable employees leave earlier... Though I would add that doing it via a more realistic temporary work visa program would be preferable to encouraging an illegal crossing industry to flourish.
- mieseratte 8y ago
  > I would posit that the people coming here illegally to work are actually the most entrepreneurial, hard working, can-do people You're not at all wrong, I grew up with a lot of illegal friends. Good number of them have since gone on to become American citizens through hard work and determination and have built good lives for themselves. Maternally, I'm a second generation American. My grandparents came to America post-WWII with nothing but an offer of employment, and ended up retired with the classic condo beach life. The classic story of rags to middle class American riches. There's a reason that's been the American tale, coming to a faraway land in search of prosperity takes drive. We filter for hard workers. The problem is the black-market / underbelly aspects of this pool, and that very desperation and drive that drove them here has them put up with conditions we should be ashamed of be it in California, Iowa, or Appalachia. Businesses exploiting that cheap source of labor drive down the ability for those trying to live a basic American life.
rubicon33 8y ago
The biggest counter argument I hear, regularly, is that the "tide" of illegal labor you speak of is NECESSARY. Who will pick strawberries? Who will clean your hotel room? Etc. It's the classic who will do "X" dirty job argument.

loggedinmyphone 8y ago

Europe did the same in importing large numbers of Muslim laborers after WW2. The hope was that they'd either make their money and go back home, or culturally integrate. Many observers will say that neither happened and there's now a difficult social problem in many countries like France.

dv_dt 8y ago
America integrated large immigrant waves in it's past, and I doubt anyone would say the Italians, or Irish, or other minorities were not integrated today. Time bridges cultures, and we're the better for it.
- cheeseomlit 8y ago
  Italians, Irish, and most of the other immigrants from that time were Europeans who had a lot in common with Americans culturally.
  - spamizbad 8y ago
    Not really true, especially for southern Sicilians Italians They shared neither language nor religion (US was overwhelmingly protestant). At the time, they were considered a distinct race from your typical white American due to their Sicilian heritage. Their diet was also significantly different, to the point where some states actually sent out social workers teaching Italian families to cook "American" foods -- the fear being their pasta-heavy diets would prevent them from integrating. Politically, they were far more pro-labor and were viewed as agitators, socialists and anarchists -- far removed from the political mainstream during the roaring 20s. They were hated and feared enough that there was a mass lynching of 11 Italian-Americans in Louisiana.
  - dv_dt 8y ago
    I don't think you're thinking of the historical details to say that in such a blase manner. The path to integration went through periods much more violent and contentious than anything we see today.

dalacv 8y ago

What some people don't realize is that the person emptying your trash bin in the evenings might very well be college educated. Not that they stand a chance of using that education in the US without the appropriate level of English.

PebblesRox 8y ago
Yes. For instance, my father-in-law has a PhD but worked as a janitor for a while when he first came to the US, until he could teach himself enough English to land a better job.

diminoten 8y ago

What's the definition of "value" here? For current US citizens? For the world's economy? For some kind of global happiness/prosperity measurement? Each definition changes the answers significantly, I'd think.

losteric 8y ago

Employing immigrants in unskilled labor is a good thing if we're on the cusp of an automation revolution. Immigrants are not citizens - these are employable people who invested in traveling to America because we pay more for their skills. They go home when the market becomes unfavorable. California has never been "straddled" with unemployable farm workers over winter...

gowld 8y ago

Having fewer children neatly solves the problem of unemployment

mlrtime 8y ago

Try getting reasonably priced manual or domestic work in NYC. Workers here are lazy, incompetent and entitled. Compared to large cities in Asia it is difficult to get good workers here. YMMV

cm2012 8y ago

Also, children of immigrants have the highest attainment of all https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0272775713001349 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S02727...

ch4s3 8y ago

> I don't see the value in large numbers of unskilled workers entering the US every year. With a potentially large wave of automation coming, the US shouldn't straddled itself with lots of unemployable drivers, farm workers, etc. Your argument is that the jobs these people do might be automated away so they shouldn't come here. Is that correct? I would counter that many of these jobs can't easily be automated and that these workers are much more adaptable than you give them credit for. You just aren't going to see robots picking strawberries or hanging sheetrock on a large scale anytime soon for economic and technical reasons. Delivery drivers and dishwashers have very low cpaex vs robots that could do the same. These immigrants also start small companies at higher rates than native born Americans. I guess I just don't get the rationale for keeping out low skill workers. The pay for goods an services, provide labor, start businesses, and generally do quite well.

BigChiefSmokem 8y ago

You are not in agriculture and manufacturing then. We want to bring back coal mine jobs but why don't those coal miners start picking strawberries then? Neither requires a higher education or barely any education at all.

wmeredith 8y ago
The coal mining stuff is smoke and mirrors. Arby’s employs more people than the entire coal mining industry.

papiandpapi 8y ago

Another nativist who displays his/her prejudice under the guise of Illegal vs legal immigrant.Go spend a year outside of United States and come tell us how your experience looks like.