11 ms·

Which is probably a good thing, since it will slowly beat into the minds of upper-levels at corps and recruiters that a College Degree shouldn't be the minimum

Which is probably a good thing, since it will slowly beat into the minds of upper-levels at corps and recruiters that a College Degree shouldn't be the minimum bar applicants need to reach, and maybe some of these companies will start removing the "has degree" band reject filter.

djrogers 8y ago
I don’t have a degree and have never run in to an issue with that fact. Came up once in an interview about 20 years ago for a very early job, and that’s the last I’ve heard of it.
- xkjkls 8y ago
  The problem is usually getting the first couple opportunities. You don't need a degree if you've been in the industry awhile, but if you're trying to get a prestigious job it gets really easy to be filtered into thrown out stack of resumes.
  - H1Supreme 8y ago
    This is the kicker. Getting your foot in the door is much, much easier with a degree. But, it doesn't mean it's the only way. I got my first programming gig, sans degree, with my portfolio. My boss commented that my website, and descriptions of my projects, is what got me the interview. Coming from graphic design, a portfolio is par for the course. But, I think some programmers will overlook the need for one. And no, I don't think Github projects serve as the same thing. A supplement? Yes. But, a proper site for your work can do wonders.
    - vkou 8y ago
      100% of my work has been internal-facing systems for large companies. Should I compose a portfolio of it? How will a hiring manager be able to differentiate it from a bunch of bullshit? As an artist, you can almost always point to something, and say: I did this. I designed that. I am credited on a blockbuster film. As a programmer, you can almost always talk a hot game about how you did something, but you can rarely tie that to proof. Are you saying that's the hiring manager's problem, not mine?
timr 8y ago
Even if not all college degrees are worthwhile, it doesn't mean that companies are wrong to want college degrees. In fact, it's probably true that the highest-paid, highest-skill jobs have the most genuine need for college degrees. And for the rest, virtue signaling is a real thing: if you have more applicants than jobs, you set up high filters to winnow the pool.
- macinjosh 8y ago
  Winnow the pool to rich people who can afford college that is.
  - timr 8y ago
    Or perhaps less cynically, winnowing the pool to the group of people who have the personalities and temperaments necessary to complete a college degree. It doesn't have to be a perfect filter; false negatives don't matter so much if your filter leads to enrichment. I'm not saying it's "fair", I'm just saying there are rational reasons to do it.
- luma 8y ago
  You seem to be suggesting that the simple addition of a degree requirement is good because it narrows the search field. By this same argument, I could say I will only accept candidates that are left handed.
  - timr 8y ago
    "By this same argument, I could say I will only accept candidates that are left handed." If you find that filtering for people who are left-handed improves the average quality of your candidates, then yes. But of course, a college degree is not even remotely as arbitrary as you're suggesting.
  - alistairSH 8y ago
    The assumption is that holding a degree is a proxy for IQ, or work ethic, or some other positive trait. Left-handedness doesn't signal much of anything, beyond perhaps a slightly shorter life expectancy.
SilasX 8y ago
Yes, my HS counselor, in speeches to students at assemblies (c.1999), was constantly saying "It doesn't matter which college you go to, but you absolutely must get a degree."
- gaius 8y ago
  Same here, they even went so far as to say it didn’t even matter what you studied! That is why you should never take career advice from someone who ended up as a careers adviser....
  - SilasX 8y ago
    Not sure if joking, but I agree, in a general sense. For skills above a certain level/specialization, I don't like the idea of a "full time, career teacher". In order to really ground the lessons/advice they're giving, they need to be a practicioner[1] too -- otherwise, your questions will get answered with "... that's what the book says" or some rationalization of some idiosyncratic ritual they favor. That doesn't impart a real understanding. For a HS counselor, that would mean they also work as a career counselor outside to tell people whether or what jobs to change to, or to stay at their current one. I wouldn't apply that to core education, as there are no e.g. professional adders, but you get the the picture. I could go on, but that's a topic for another day, I guess. [1] a retired or former practicioner would suffice here too
    - gaius 8y ago
      I don't like the idea of a "full time, career teacher". This one - I still remember her name but I won't doxx her obv - I happen to know had gone from school to university to teacher training to my school. She had never been outside the education system in her entire life. But her job was to advise 16- and 18-year olds on how to set themselves up for career success... (I think she also taught Home Ec or some similar fluffy subject)
  - s73v3r_ 8y ago
    But, here's the thing: They weren't wrong. The sheer number of people who have had their resumes ignored simply because they don't have a degree of some sort attests to that.
Consultant32452 8y ago
Employers are generally looking for a proxy for iq, since testing iq directly has potential legal problems. SAT, ASVAB, grades, degree attainment are often just proxies for iq. I think if Congress passes a law explicitly allowing iq tests for all job applications we'll see many of these seemingly irrational job requirements fade away.
- passivepinetree 8y ago
  This isn't true at all. IQ is much less important than work ethic and attitude at many/most jobs.
  - j_gu 8y ago
    So why then does the US military place people according to the ASVAB?
    - JasonFruit 8y ago
      The military provides the motivation.
    - topkai22 8y ago
      The ASVAB is a vocational (subject) test, not an IQ test. I think it does try to measure general intelligence in some sections, but it’s really focused on “can you do this type of job.” When I took it over a decade ago there was basically a “clerking” section which I flunked.
      - blueseaadmin 8y ago
        The ASVAB is what you say it is. I took it back in the mid 80s, scored just shy of perfect, yet I chose a combat MOS because of my interests and desire for going the "hard route". Looking back, I regret not going into a technical role in the Air Force rather than going Marines, but I've now been in IT for 20 years, and Uncle Sam paid for my degree when I left the service. All in all, a good gig.
      - 8y ago
aarongough 8y ago
I don't have a degree and honestly have never had any issues with recruiters or interviews for intermediate/senior 'software engineering' positions. I never represent myself as having a degree, but I don't go out of my way to point out my lack of degree either. Never once in an interview have I been asked about my education. One nice thing about software development positions is the interview process tends to be merit based. I have mostly interviewed with small/medium businesses in Toronto, but have also done early stage interviews with Google where it was also not brought up. I declined further interviews with Google because I didn't want to move, so maybe it would have been an issue later on.
- shaftway 8y ago
  I don't have a degree and it almost never fails to come up. Ultimately I flunked out (for a variety of reasons). I've done a lot of A/B(/C/D/E) testing with my resume: - Don't include education - I'm asked about it. Every. Single. Time. - Include the years I attended college - Asked why I didn't finish. Every. Single. Time. - Include college in a misleading way - I did a summer extension program for 2 years while in high school at a similar college. I list both colleges, my start year, my end year, and what my degree track was. I do not claim that I have a degree, but nearly everyone assumes I do. I'm almost never asked about it. Any time I am asked about it I'm honest to the degree they need ("I had to take a break from school due to family issues", which is true: my family had an issue with the number of "F"s I was getting). I've actually had managers who found out after being hired who told me "if I had known that, I wouldn't have hired you" Ultimately I think there are a lot of industries that a degree requirement is a good thing (I really want my doctor to actually have an MD), a lot of industries where certification is sufficient (I don't particularly think an LMFT needs to have a full degree), but the vast majority of industries shouldn't require it, and filtering for that is a cop-out. I've been at Google for a number of years. Whether I had a degree was brought up during the recruiter conversations; nobody cared.
  - derefr 8y ago
    > I really want my doctor to actually have an MD How do you feel about the fact that doctors from foreign countries need to requalify in the US with a whole ‘nother MD program here? Even if they’re from a country with as-or-more stringent requirements, and decades of experience? “Higher education” is sometimes, in hiring, a dog-whistle for “enculturated to the US because they attended college here.”
ryandvm 8y ago
I don't know. If an employer is clueless enough to have such a filter, it's probably best that I don't work for them anyway...
- toomuchtodo 8y ago
  Sometimes you don’t have a choice, because you have a mortgage to pay and want to eat.
- s73v3r_ 8y ago
  Those kind of platitudes are nice, but they provide cold comfort to someone who can't feed their family.

djrogers 8y ago

I don’t have a degree and have never run in to an issue with that fact. Came up once in an interview about 20 years ago for a very early job, and that’s the last I’ve heard of it.

xkjkls 8y ago
The problem is usually getting the first couple opportunities. You don't need a degree if you've been in the industry awhile, but if you're trying to get a prestigious job it gets really easy to be filtered into thrown out stack of resumes.
- H1Supreme 8y ago
  This is the kicker. Getting your foot in the door is much, much easier with a degree. But, it doesn't mean it's the only way. I got my first programming gig, sans degree, with my portfolio. My boss commented that my website, and descriptions of my projects, is what got me the interview. Coming from graphic design, a portfolio is par for the course. But, I think some programmers will overlook the need for one. And no, I don't think Github projects serve as the same thing. A supplement? Yes. But, a proper site for your work can do wonders.
  - vkou 8y ago
    100% of my work has been internal-facing systems for large companies. Should I compose a portfolio of it? How will a hiring manager be able to differentiate it from a bunch of bullshit? As an artist, you can almost always point to something, and say: I did this. I designed that. I am credited on a blockbuster film. As a programmer, you can almost always talk a hot game about how you did something, but you can rarely tie that to proof. Are you saying that's the hiring manager's problem, not mine?

timr 8y ago

Even if not all college degrees are worthwhile, it doesn't mean that companies are wrong to want college degrees. In fact, it's probably true that the highest-paid, highest-skill jobs have the most genuine need for college degrees. And for the rest, virtue signaling is a real thing: if you have more applicants than jobs, you set up high filters to winnow the pool.

macinjosh 8y ago
Winnow the pool to rich people who can afford college that is.
- timr 8y ago
  Or perhaps less cynically, winnowing the pool to the group of people who have the personalities and temperaments necessary to complete a college degree. It doesn't have to be a perfect filter; false negatives don't matter so much if your filter leads to enrichment. I'm not saying it's "fair", I'm just saying there are rational reasons to do it.
luma 8y ago
You seem to be suggesting that the simple addition of a degree requirement is good because it narrows the search field. By this same argument, I could say I will only accept candidates that are left handed.
- timr 8y ago
  "By this same argument, I could say I will only accept candidates that are left handed." If you find that filtering for people who are left-handed improves the average quality of your candidates, then yes. But of course, a college degree is not even remotely as arbitrary as you're suggesting.
- alistairSH 8y ago
  The assumption is that holding a degree is a proxy for IQ, or work ethic, or some other positive trait. Left-handedness doesn't signal much of anything, beyond perhaps a slightly shorter life expectancy.

SilasX 8y ago

Yes, my HS counselor, in speeches to students at assemblies (c.1999), was constantly saying "It doesn't matter which college you go to, but you absolutely must get a degree."

gaius 8y ago
Same here, they even went so far as to say it didn’t even matter what you studied! That is why you should never take career advice from someone who ended up as a careers adviser....
- SilasX 8y ago
  Not sure if joking, but I agree, in a general sense. For skills above a certain level/specialization, I don't like the idea of a "full time, career teacher". In order to really ground the lessons/advice they're giving, they need to be a practicioner[1] too -- otherwise, your questions will get answered with "... that's what the book says" or some rationalization of some idiosyncratic ritual they favor. That doesn't impart a real understanding. For a HS counselor, that would mean they also work as a career counselor outside to tell people whether or what jobs to change to, or to stay at their current one. I wouldn't apply that to core education, as there are no e.g. professional adders, but you get the the picture. I could go on, but that's a topic for another day, I guess. [1] a retired or former practicioner would suffice here too
  - gaius 8y ago
    I don't like the idea of a "full time, career teacher". This one - I still remember her name but I won't doxx her obv - I happen to know had gone from school to university to teacher training to my school. She had never been outside the education system in her entire life. But her job was to advise 16- and 18-year olds on how to set themselves up for career success... (I think she also taught Home Ec or some similar fluffy subject)
- s73v3r_ 8y ago
  But, here's the thing: They weren't wrong. The sheer number of people who have had their resumes ignored simply because they don't have a degree of some sort attests to that.

Consultant32452 8y ago

Employers are generally looking for a proxy for iq, since testing iq directly has potential legal problems. SAT, ASVAB, grades, degree attainment are often just proxies for iq. I think if Congress passes a law explicitly allowing iq tests for all job applications we'll see many of these seemingly irrational job requirements fade away.

passivepinetree 8y ago
This isn't true at all. IQ is much less important than work ethic and attitude at many/most jobs.
- j_gu 8y ago
  So why then does the US military place people according to the ASVAB?
  - JasonFruit 8y ago
    The military provides the motivation.
  - topkai22 8y ago
    The ASVAB is a vocational (subject) test, not an IQ test. I think it does try to measure general intelligence in some sections, but it’s really focused on “can you do this type of job.” When I took it over a decade ago there was basically a “clerking” section which I flunked.
    - blueseaadmin 8y ago
      The ASVAB is what you say it is. I took it back in the mid 80s, scored just shy of perfect, yet I chose a combat MOS because of my interests and desire for going the "hard route". Looking back, I regret not going into a technical role in the Air Force rather than going Marines, but I've now been in IT for 20 years, and Uncle Sam paid for my degree when I left the service. All in all, a good gig.
    - 8y ago

aarongough 8y ago

I don't have a degree and honestly have never had any issues with recruiters or interviews for intermediate/senior 'software engineering' positions. I never represent myself as having a degree, but I don't go out of my way to point out my lack of degree either. Never once in an interview have I been asked about my education. One nice thing about software development positions is the interview process tends to be merit based. I have mostly interviewed with small/medium businesses in Toronto, but have also done early stage interviews with Google where it was also not brought up. I declined further interviews with Google because I didn't want to move, so maybe it would have been an issue later on.

shaftway 8y ago
I don't have a degree and it almost never fails to come up. Ultimately I flunked out (for a variety of reasons). I've done a lot of A/B(/C/D/E) testing with my resume: - Don't include education - I'm asked about it. Every. Single. Time. - Include the years I attended college - Asked why I didn't finish. Every. Single. Time. - Include college in a misleading way - I did a summer extension program for 2 years while in high school at a similar college. I list both colleges, my start year, my end year, and what my degree track was. I do not claim that I have a degree, but nearly everyone assumes I do. I'm almost never asked about it. Any time I am asked about it I'm honest to the degree they need ("I had to take a break from school due to family issues", which is true: my family had an issue with the number of "F"s I was getting). I've actually had managers who found out after being hired who told me "if I had known that, I wouldn't have hired you" Ultimately I think there are a lot of industries that a degree requirement is a good thing (I really want my doctor to actually have an MD), a lot of industries where certification is sufficient (I don't particularly think an LMFT needs to have a full degree), but the vast majority of industries shouldn't require it, and filtering for that is a cop-out. I've been at Google for a number of years. Whether I had a degree was brought up during the recruiter conversations; nobody cared.
- derefr 8y ago
  > I really want my doctor to actually have an MD How do you feel about the fact that doctors from foreign countries need to requalify in the US with a whole ‘nother MD program here? Even if they’re from a country with as-or-more stringent requirements, and decades of experience? “Higher education” is sometimes, in hiring, a dog-whistle for “enculturated to the US because they attended college here.”

ryandvm 8y ago

I don't know. If an employer is clueless enough to have such a filter, it's probably best that I don't work for them anyway...

toomuchtodo 8y ago
Sometimes you don’t have a choice, because you have a mortgage to pay and want to eat.
s73v3r_ 8y ago
Those kind of platitudes are nice, but they provide cold comfort to someone who can't feed their family.