7 ms·

How Posture Makes Us Human

82 points by dnetesn 9y ago

joe_the_user 9y ago
The most interesting modern theory of posture (imo) is that of FM Alexander, The Alexander Technique[1] (a system that has influenced other systems, such as those of Feldenkrais). The Alexander Technique is notable for avoiding the approach of standing by force of will and rather standing naturally once one has retrained a faulty idea of one's position in space. Proper posture thus becomes "effortless" rather than being a matter of force, effort or will (Alexander's writings on how modern society miscalibrates basic human balance reflexes are worth a look also). It is interesting to read the long heritage of the idea of standing by will - especially the similarities of the idea of Alexander and Hegel passage quoted in the article. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Technique https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Technique
- handsomechad 9y ago
  I'm really interested in Alexander but haven't found great resources about it online. Can you link to anything publicly available that you found interesting? Where does he talk about modern society miscalibrating human balance? Also, how does it compare to Feldenkrais?
  - throway45981 9y ago
    Alexander teaching is almost always one-on-one with gentle hands-on guidance. The best comparison is probably private music lessons. Feldenkrais includes two types of work, Awareness Through Movement which is a series of thought-provoking movements taught in group classes, and Functional Integration which is a one on one manipulative technique. Note that ATMs were designed for broadcast dissemination - at times Feldenkrais would teach classes by playing tapes of himself reading the lessons. Teachers vary widely, but as a rule Alexander teaching emphasizes the role of conscious intention as a way to defeat old movement patterns. Feldenkrais work leans towards reeducating the unconscious through exploration. Alexander's writings are impenetrable, wordy, and arrogant. Feldenkrais's books are considerably clearer. Alexander was a voice actor, while Feldenkrais had a doctorate in engineering. If you are going to learn online, get Feldenkrais's book _Awareness Through Movement_, find some recordings of the instructions, and spend hours doing them. Any Alexander Teacher who offers instruction online is a charlatan, but if you have the opportunity to take a few private lessons with an AmSAT or Affiliated Societies certified Alexander teacher, you may notice things that would take a lot of individual study. Source: I am trained as an Alexander Teacher and would happily take a Feldenkrais teacher training if I had time.
    - carapace 9y ago
      Moshé Feldenkrais is a pretty fascinating individual. An engineer and physicist, I believe he was one of the first Europeans to earn Black belt in Judo. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosh%C3%A9_Feldenkrais https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosh%C3%A9_Feldenkrais
- DenisM 9y ago
  Over stretched and weak back muscles plus over tense chest muscle contribute greatly to poor posture. How does that figure into the idea of retraining positional perception?
  - jamesb93 9y ago
    Perhaps those people perceive their back to be straight when it has been curved for years. Their sense of normal is warped and they dont have the feedback system to correct it without first adjusting their proprioception of where they are in relation to their body (and how parts of their body are in relation to each other).
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- Tharkun 9y ago
  I can't remember where I read it, but I recently read something along the lines of: "no posture is perfect; the body is not a static entity, we are constantly moving and adjusting to our environment". Moving a lot and in different ways seems like it's better than sitting/standing still in the same position all day long.
  - djtriptych 9y ago
    The body is technically always moving, but your perception of what your body is doing can be made calm. Once this happens, your posture adjustments are more like manipulating a single point in space (your center of gravity) than adjusting limbs and muscles. It feels effortless, or like you are always floating.
  - crazygringo 9y ago
    The two don't really have that much to do with each other. Posture can be good or bad, both while still or in movement. Yes, of course movement is healthy and good, but moving more doesn't necessarily mean your posture will improve, or that your movement will be performed with good posture. And the idea that "no posture is perfect" feels misleading -- when your body is in healthy balance without excess tension, then yes your posture is perfect, again regardless of whether you're in motion or not.
- fjsolwmv 9y ago
  What's the difference between "standing by will" and Alexander's "standing by will until you've retrained muscle memory"?
  - djtriptych 9y ago
    Correcting posture requires not only a strengthening and lengthing of the correct muscles, but literally a new perception of what your body is doing. Bring strong and flexible is sufficient to walk. I sometimes indicate how hard this is as “learning to walk again”. Retraining your posture is on the order of difficulty of learning to walk for the first time. Imagine how much effort and attention you put into that the first time around.
    - fjsolwmv 9y ago
      Normal human beings put 0 effort and attention into walking. They stumble about until it works. A toddler learns to walk before they have most of their conscious brain development.
      - djtriptych 8y ago
        None of what you just said made sense.
- djtriptych 9y ago
  Have you compared it to any other modern theories of posture or is this just the one you’re familiar with?
  - crazygringo 9y ago
    FWIW, Alexander Technique is standard in virtually every college-level acting program and classical voice program. It really is the standard, with Feldenkrais at a kind of distant second.
    - Jommi 9y ago
      Not sure how this relates to it being provenly effective for "correct" posture.
      - crazygringo 9y ago
        Unfortunately, the area of posture is very much like the area of nutrition -- very little scientific evidence, lots of wildly different competing theories. In nutrition it's count your calories, no actually don't eat carbs, or avoid saturated fats, or animal fats are fine, just trust your instinct, instinct is what makes everyone fat, etc. The world of posture seems awfully similar -- everybody thinks they know what good posture is (which is often overexaggerated and incorrect), but few people can really define it, and different coaches have wildly different definitions for it (tilt the pelvis forwards! no, never tilt the pelvis forwards!). But at the end of the day, the people who most depend on their posture to make a living -- actors, singers, and dancers -- overwhelmingly use AT. So, scientifically proven? Not at all. But it seems to be the best we've got. Check out: https://www.amazon.com/Body-Learning-Introduction-Alexander-Technique/dp/0805042067/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1526216511&sr=8-1 https://www.amazon.com/Body-Learning-Introduction-Alexander-...
- paulsutter 9y ago
  Everyone I know with good posture are physically fit, none of whom have “retrained a faulty idea of one’s position in space”. The sense we have that someone is fit generally comes from their posture. Does this idea-retraining work as well as the gym? Do you know examples of unfit people with great posture through idea-retraining? Of course we all know unfit people who are always straining to “sit up straight” and so forth, which always seems unnatural. Perhaps these people are the target market for this idea-retraining?
  - yodon 9y ago
    Much of this is stronger than average back muscles helping to straighten the spine and pull the shoulders into a more correct position. More general core strength then helps stabilize the body as a whole, increasing your awareness of their physicality and posture. Rowers, for example, tend to be almost physically incapable of standing with poor posture because of the excess back and shoulder strength they develop.
    - taneq 9y ago
      That's what I've found - the degree of "computer-nerd stoop" that I have directly relates to how much upper body work (and specifically back-work) I've been doing. A few dozen reps of seated row / horizontal row a week, or a lengthy motorcycle commute for a few weeks, completely 'fixes' my posture.
      - JimboOmega 9y ago
        As someone who commutes by motorcycle daily, how foes that fix anything? You're always hunched over on the bike
        taneq 9y ago
        Well, it depends on your exact bike and commute. A large-bore naked bike plus several places on the commute which allow spirited up to highway speeds combine to a pretty good back workout. I guess a slow commute in purely suburban / urban traffic on a supersports or a scooter wouldn't be as useful though.
projektir 9y ago
This concept is... exceedingly philosophically problematic, and one of those things that might be cute on paper if you don't think about it too much, but rather horrific if you do. We should keep in mind the positions many of these philosophers were in. They often come from aristocracy classes and look down on commoners. They had access to better resources and were not ailed with problems, and therefore had no trouble defining people who are weaker, sicker, lower, smaller, uglier, etc., as "lesser". It's not a coincidence that many philosophers were not even able to register women as people. The downtrodden person is easy to look down upon as they have been damaged. No room for complexity or messiness that's inherent in the lives of most people. These philosophers liked living by ideals, but human life is not ideal, and creating these ideals simply gates away most humans. If anything, the concept is non-human, but in its nature, Luciferous, as it separates off a "worthy" elite and throws away the rest. Most normal people do not survive the judgment of a philosopher. A hunching person is human. A person with damaged limbs is a human. An older person who cannot stand upright is human. If you assign value to posture, then you have forgotten these people and flagged them as unworthy, and that makes you not human more than anything discussed in this article. It is that thought which is immoral, it is that thought which makes the slave, and not at all the posture of the slave. The excuse that comes after, not the origin of the evil.
- Valmar 9y ago
  I agree. :)

82 points by dnetesn 9y ago

The most interesting modern theory of posture (imo) is that of FM Alexander, The Alexander Technique[1] (a system that has influenced other systems, such as those of Feldenkrais). The Alexander Technique is notable for avoiding the approach of standing by force of will and rather standing naturally once one has retrained a faulty idea of one's position in space. Proper posture thus becomes "effortless" rather than being a matter of force, effort or will (Alexander's writings on how modern society miscalibrates basic human balance reflexes are worth a look also). It is interesting to read the long heritage of the idea of standing by will - especially the similarities of the idea of Alexander and Hegel passage quoted in the article. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Technique https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Technique

handsomechad 9y ago
I'm really interested in Alexander but haven't found great resources about it online. Can you link to anything publicly available that you found interesting? Where does he talk about modern society miscalibrating human balance? Also, how does it compare to Feldenkrais?
- throway45981 9y ago
  Alexander teaching is almost always one-on-one with gentle hands-on guidance. The best comparison is probably private music lessons. Feldenkrais includes two types of work, Awareness Through Movement which is a series of thought-provoking movements taught in group classes, and Functional Integration which is a one on one manipulative technique. Note that ATMs were designed for broadcast dissemination - at times Feldenkrais would teach classes by playing tapes of himself reading the lessons. Teachers vary widely, but as a rule Alexander teaching emphasizes the role of conscious intention as a way to defeat old movement patterns. Feldenkrais work leans towards reeducating the unconscious through exploration. Alexander's writings are impenetrable, wordy, and arrogant. Feldenkrais's books are considerably clearer. Alexander was a voice actor, while Feldenkrais had a doctorate in engineering. If you are going to learn online, get Feldenkrais's book _Awareness Through Movement_, find some recordings of the instructions, and spend hours doing them. Any Alexander Teacher who offers instruction online is a charlatan, but if you have the opportunity to take a few private lessons with an AmSAT or Affiliated Societies certified Alexander teacher, you may notice things that would take a lot of individual study. Source: I am trained as an Alexander Teacher and would happily take a Feldenkrais teacher training if I had time.
  - carapace 9y ago
    Moshé Feldenkrais is a pretty fascinating individual. An engineer and physicist, I believe he was one of the first Europeans to earn Black belt in Judo. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosh%C3%A9_Feldenkrais https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosh%C3%A9_Feldenkrais
DenisM 9y ago
Over stretched and weak back muscles plus over tense chest muscle contribute greatly to poor posture. How does that figure into the idea of retraining positional perception?
- jamesb93 9y ago
  Perhaps those people perceive their back to be straight when it has been curved for years. Their sense of normal is warped and they dont have the feedback system to correct it without first adjusting their proprioception of where they are in relation to their body (and how parts of their body are in relation to each other).
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
Tharkun 9y ago
I can't remember where I read it, but I recently read something along the lines of: "no posture is perfect; the body is not a static entity, we are constantly moving and adjusting to our environment". Moving a lot and in different ways seems like it's better than sitting/standing still in the same position all day long.
- djtriptych 9y ago
  The body is technically always moving, but your perception of what your body is doing can be made calm. Once this happens, your posture adjustments are more like manipulating a single point in space (your center of gravity) than adjusting limbs and muscles. It feels effortless, or like you are always floating.
- crazygringo 9y ago
  The two don't really have that much to do with each other. Posture can be good or bad, both while still or in movement. Yes, of course movement is healthy and good, but moving more doesn't necessarily mean your posture will improve, or that your movement will be performed with good posture. And the idea that "no posture is perfect" feels misleading -- when your body is in healthy balance without excess tension, then yes your posture is perfect, again regardless of whether you're in motion or not.
fjsolwmv 9y ago
What's the difference between "standing by will" and Alexander's "standing by will until you've retrained muscle memory"?
- djtriptych 9y ago
  Correcting posture requires not only a strengthening and lengthing of the correct muscles, but literally a new perception of what your body is doing. Bring strong and flexible is sufficient to walk. I sometimes indicate how hard this is as “learning to walk again”. Retraining your posture is on the order of difficulty of learning to walk for the first time. Imagine how much effort and attention you put into that the first time around.
  - fjsolwmv 9y ago
    Normal human beings put 0 effort and attention into walking. They stumble about until it works. A toddler learns to walk before they have most of their conscious brain development.
    - djtriptych 8y ago
      None of what you just said made sense.
djtriptych 9y ago
Have you compared it to any other modern theories of posture or is this just the one you’re familiar with?
- crazygringo 9y ago
  FWIW, Alexander Technique is standard in virtually every college-level acting program and classical voice program. It really is the standard, with Feldenkrais at a kind of distant second.
  - Jommi 9y ago
    Not sure how this relates to it being provenly effective for "correct" posture.
    - crazygringo 9y ago
      Unfortunately, the area of posture is very much like the area of nutrition -- very little scientific evidence, lots of wildly different competing theories. In nutrition it's count your calories, no actually don't eat carbs, or avoid saturated fats, or animal fats are fine, just trust your instinct, instinct is what makes everyone fat, etc. The world of posture seems awfully similar -- everybody thinks they know what good posture is (which is often overexaggerated and incorrect), but few people can really define it, and different coaches have wildly different definitions for it (tilt the pelvis forwards! no, never tilt the pelvis forwards!). But at the end of the day, the people who most depend on their posture to make a living -- actors, singers, and dancers -- overwhelmingly use AT. So, scientifically proven? Not at all. But it seems to be the best we've got. Check out: https://www.amazon.com/Body-Learning-Introduction-Alexander-Technique/dp/0805042067/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1526216511&sr=8-1 https://www.amazon.com/Body-Learning-Introduction-Alexander-...
paulsutter 9y ago
Everyone I know with good posture are physically fit, none of whom have “retrained a faulty idea of one’s position in space”. The sense we have that someone is fit generally comes from their posture. Does this idea-retraining work as well as the gym? Do you know examples of unfit people with great posture through idea-retraining? Of course we all know unfit people who are always straining to “sit up straight” and so forth, which always seems unnatural. Perhaps these people are the target market for this idea-retraining?
- yodon 9y ago
  Much of this is stronger than average back muscles helping to straighten the spine and pull the shoulders into a more correct position. More general core strength then helps stabilize the body as a whole, increasing your awareness of their physicality and posture. Rowers, for example, tend to be almost physically incapable of standing with poor posture because of the excess back and shoulder strength they develop.
  - taneq 9y ago
    That's what I've found - the degree of "computer-nerd stoop" that I have directly relates to how much upper body work (and specifically back-work) I've been doing. A few dozen reps of seated row / horizontal row a week, or a lengthy motorcycle commute for a few weeks, completely 'fixes' my posture.
    - JimboOmega 9y ago
      As someone who commutes by motorcycle daily, how foes that fix anything? You're always hunched over on the bike
      - taneq 9y ago
        Well, it depends on your exact bike and commute. A large-bore naked bike plus several places on the commute which allow spirited up to highway speeds combine to a pretty good back workout. I guess a slow commute in purely suburban / urban traffic on a supersports or a scooter wouldn't be as useful though.

projektir 9y ago

This concept is... exceedingly philosophically problematic, and one of those things that might be cute on paper if you don't think about it too much, but rather horrific if you do. We should keep in mind the positions many of these philosophers were in. They often come from aristocracy classes and look down on commoners. They had access to better resources and were not ailed with problems, and therefore had no trouble defining people who are weaker, sicker, lower, smaller, uglier, etc., as "lesser". It's not a coincidence that many philosophers were not even able to register women as people. The downtrodden person is easy to look down upon as they have been damaged. No room for complexity or messiness that's inherent in the lives of most people. These philosophers liked living by ideals, but human life is not ideal, and creating these ideals simply gates away most humans. If anything, the concept is non-human, but in its nature, Luciferous, as it separates off a "worthy" elite and throws away the rest. Most normal people do not survive the judgment of a philosopher. A hunching person is human. A person with damaged limbs is a human. An older person who cannot stand upright is human. If you assign value to posture, then you have forgotten these people and flagged them as unworthy, and that makes you not human more than anything discussed in this article. It is that thought which is immoral, it is that thought which makes the slave, and not at all the posture of the slave. The excuse that comes after, not the origin of the evil.

Valmar 9y ago
I agree. :)