11 ms·

Why do they store everything?

by mathieubordere 8y ago

ironcan 8y ago
This is the important question, why is this feature even on by default? Why is it an option to NOT have that feature?
- giardini 8y ago
  For the same reason most, if not all, copiers and printers embed hidden markings into output - so 3-letter agencies and law enforcement can track documents: https://www.google.com/search?q=hidden+markings+in+printed+pages https://www.google.com/search?q=hidden+markings+in+printed+p...
  - hnaccy 8y ago
    I have to agree. Storing thousands of old documents does not seem like an accident.
    - pwg 8y ago
      The code running the copier likely did an unlink(filename) when done with the job. And once deleted, it looked like it was gone from the point of view of looking at a directory listing of the drive. Of course the programmer writing the code did not consider all those "undelete" utilities that exist to "undo an unlink(filename) operation" and how they might just be used to recover the files.
21 8y ago
Probably they have a "redial" feature, which let's you reprint something again.
RachelF 8y ago
Not everything, but think of the workflows they are used for: Printing: They spool print jobs to their hard drive before printing. Scanning: They create temporary image files for ocr and pdf conversion. These files then need to be emailed to a user or sent via a file server. Photocopying: Temporary image files are also created. Photocopying on a digital copier is effectively a scan then print operation.
- deadmetheny 8y ago
  A more apt question would be "why are these files being stored after the device has finished doing whatever it needed to do with them"
  - tzahola 8y ago
    Because they weren't overwritten with zeroes.
    - scrumption 8y ago
      then another question: why even bother building in a hard drive large enough to store hundreds of documents? certainly a circular buffer 1/1000th the capacity would be cheaper? this makes no sense no matter how many one line hand-waves you make
      - jlgaddis 8y ago
        1. Cost. It is (presumably) much cheaper to use the same COTS SATA HDDs that are used in desktop PCs. 2. Since now your copier/printer/scanner/fax/coffee machine has a 500 GB in it, what are other ways we can take advantage of that space? Save a copy of every printed document ("for compliance"), e-mail documents straight to the end user, dump scanned documents (PDFs) straight into a network share (or run such a share on the device itself), cost accounting (by user or department or ...), "hold" printed documents in the queue until the user actually shows up at the printer to retrieve their print job (they can quickly/easily "release" it -- prevents other users from inadvertantly seeing documents they shouldn't), and ... --- Off-topic edit: Right after I wrote this comment, I remembered how years ago it was possible to "bounce" TCP connections off of HP JetDirect devices. I had a cow-orker that was overly paranoid and always had a terminal window open tailing the logs on his workstation. The look on his face and his bewilderment as be watched his PC slowly being port scanned by a 10-year-old printer in a building 60 miles away (but still within our network) was absolutely hilarious.
        deleted 8y ago
Taniwha 8y ago
they may not, the guy extracting this may be recovering deleted files from the hard drive The real question should be "why do all photocopiers not come with a command that will erase all data on the internal hard drive? along with instructions telling the purchaser to execute it when they sell or trash the device"
- gargravarr 8y ago
  The real question is, why do they have hard drives in the first place?! I find this concept quite disturbing. Imagine how many times in your life you hand over your passport or driver's license for identity validation, someone copies it 'for their records' and you assume the paper copy is destroyed after a while (last time I hired some expensive tools, this happened, but the company gave me the photocopy back when I returned them). Now your private data is sitting on that company's photocopier, probably without anyone having a clue it's made a digital copy as well as a hard copy, and nobody has a hope of controlling it. I struggle to see a legitimate reason for the existence of such a 'feature'.
- tajen 8y ago
  I’m still wondering why they have a hard drive and not just RAM.
suyash 8y ago
It's a software problem. The data should to be wiped out after certain time period in my opinion from the hard drive.
- gnode 8y ago
  A better solution (which could be used in addition to periodic erasure) would be to store the data encrypted, and hold the key in volatile memory. Reliably erasing data from hard disks (particularly if they're SSDs with their own controller) is a tricky business. There's little to stop someone just removing the disk from the machine and getting hold of whatever was stored on it at the time, or improperly disposing of it if the machine breaks.

Why do they store everything?

ironcan 8y ago

This is the important question, why is this feature even on by default? Why is it an option to NOT have that feature?

giardini 8y ago
For the same reason most, if not all, copiers and printers embed hidden markings into output - so 3-letter agencies and law enforcement can track documents: https://www.google.com/search?q=hidden+markings+in+printed+pages https://www.google.com/search?q=hidden+markings+in+printed+p...
- hnaccy 8y ago
  I have to agree. Storing thousands of old documents does not seem like an accident.
  - pwg 8y ago
    The code running the copier likely did an unlink(filename) when done with the job. And once deleted, it looked like it was gone from the point of view of looking at a directory listing of the drive. Of course the programmer writing the code did not consider all those "undelete" utilities that exist to "undo an unlink(filename) operation" and how they might just be used to recover the files.

21 8y ago

Probably they have a "redial" feature, which let's you reprint something again.

RachelF 8y ago

Not everything, but think of the workflows they are used for: Printing: They spool print jobs to their hard drive before printing. Scanning: They create temporary image files for ocr and pdf conversion. These files then need to be emailed to a user or sent via a file server. Photocopying: Temporary image files are also created. Photocopying on a digital copier is effectively a scan then print operation.

deadmetheny 8y ago
A more apt question would be "why are these files being stored after the device has finished doing whatever it needed to do with them"
- tzahola 8y ago
  Because they weren't overwritten with zeroes.
  - scrumption 8y ago
    then another question: why even bother building in a hard drive large enough to store hundreds of documents? certainly a circular buffer 1/1000th the capacity would be cheaper? this makes no sense no matter how many one line hand-waves you make
    - jlgaddis 8y ago
      1. Cost. It is (presumably) much cheaper to use the same COTS SATA HDDs that are used in desktop PCs. 2. Since now your copier/printer/scanner/fax/coffee machine has a 500 GB in it, what are other ways we can take advantage of that space? Save a copy of every printed document ("for compliance"), e-mail documents straight to the end user, dump scanned documents (PDFs) straight into a network share (or run such a share on the device itself), cost accounting (by user or department or ...), "hold" printed documents in the queue until the user actually shows up at the printer to retrieve their print job (they can quickly/easily "release" it -- prevents other users from inadvertantly seeing documents they shouldn't), and ... --- Off-topic edit: Right after I wrote this comment, I remembered how years ago it was possible to "bounce" TCP connections off of HP JetDirect devices. I had a cow-orker that was overly paranoid and always had a terminal window open tailing the logs on his workstation. The look on his face and his bewilderment as be watched his PC slowly being port scanned by a 10-year-old printer in a building 60 miles away (but still within our network) was absolutely hilarious.
      - deleted 8y ago

Taniwha 8y ago

they may not, the guy extracting this may be recovering deleted files from the hard drive The real question should be "why do all photocopiers not come with a command that will erase all data on the internal hard drive? along with instructions telling the purchaser to execute it when they sell or trash the device"

gargravarr 8y ago
The real question is, why do they have hard drives in the first place?! I find this concept quite disturbing. Imagine how many times in your life you hand over your passport or driver's license for identity validation, someone copies it 'for their records' and you assume the paper copy is destroyed after a while (last time I hired some expensive tools, this happened, but the company gave me the photocopy back when I returned them). Now your private data is sitting on that company's photocopier, probably without anyone having a clue it's made a digital copy as well as a hard copy, and nobody has a hope of controlling it. I struggle to see a legitimate reason for the existence of such a 'feature'.
tajen 8y ago
I’m still wondering why they have a hard drive and not just RAM.

suyash 8y ago

It's a software problem. The data should to be wiped out after certain time period in my opinion from the hard drive.

gnode 8y ago
A better solution (which could be used in addition to periodic erasure) would be to store the data encrypted, and hold the key in volatile memory. Reliably erasing data from hard disks (particularly if they're SSDs with their own controller) is a tricky business. There's little to stop someone just removing the disk from the machine and getting hold of whatever was stored on it at the time, or improperly disposing of it if the machine breaks.