27 ms·

Don’t buy System76 hardware and expect to get firmware updates from the LVFS

163 points by anarcat 8y ago

obsurveyor 8y ago
There's also a response from someone at System76 here: https://plus.google.com/+CassidyJames/posts/RDKMJtGoX62 https://plus.google.com/+CassidyJames/posts/RDKMJtGoX62
- _asummers 8y ago
  > Classy. That's a great, professional way to build relationships and really makes people want to work with you on your project. That's.... not how this should be handled. Unsure this person's position, but if they're high enough to matter, that's not the position they should be taking here, regardless of their feelings on the matter. They also didn't address the technical parts of the article besides saying "it will probably work though we haven't tested it". They didn't discuss the reason for the degradation of communication, nor the particulars of the decisions made, or even acknowledge the scenario the article outlined, instead talking about the author negatively.
  - _wmd 8y ago
    It sounds like the "breakdown in communication" amounts to the LVFS maintainer not being informed, as everyone is naturally obliged to do so(!), that System76 were adopting a different strategy, and according to this reply due to a simple matter of commercial priority. Maintainer continues by indicating they do not require an apology, after all, everyone is obliged to inform them of all matters firmware! I didn't like the attitude in the original post, and I can understand why there is a little spice in System76's reply. Recommending a competing laptop brand over an issue as trivial as an alternative BIOS update mechanism that doesn't match Microsoft's compliance requirements seems like seriously sour grapes. It seems they expect System76 to invent an in-house firmware update system that does not use the official mechanism supplied by their chipset's support package, and somehow this is automatically a better outcome than what existed already. Maintainer should be reminded that toiling for free (presumably) on an important subsystem grants no special rights or entitlements, and lashing out at a vendor because they didn't toe an ideal line looks very immature edit: sadly maintainer isn't even working for free, they're a Red Hat employee
    - _asummers 8y ago
      To be clear, I wasn't making a comment on the tone of the original author. I tend to agree with you about the tone, but that person is not a company and is therefore held to slightly different standards. As far as the Microsoft thing, my read of that was that it was a vehicle for saying "everyone else already does this, it's the norm and expectation of consumers, don't be weird and proprietary" rather than wanting to bring in anything about Windows or whatever, especially since the article was talking about Linux distros. I have no ponies in this race, but I found System76's response very poor.
      - cassidyjames 8y ago
        For what it's worth, that was my personal response and not anything official or reviewed by System76 "the company." I try to retain a bit of autonomy while working for Sytem76. I agree that my tone may have been a little unprofessional itself, and that's on me. It has just been a frustrating time trying to do what's best for both our customers and the Linux ecosystem at large, and then being raked across the coals for it with a misleading and seemingly emotional blog post from a core Red Hat desktop employee and high-profile GNOME contributor. It's just not a fun thing to wake up to when you're also actively working with the guy on his other projects and contributing to GNOME itself, you know?
        _asummers 8y ago
        We all get frustrated, I get it. I've found a good rule of thumb for those types of situations is thinking about how the post would look if you said "I work at $COMPANY and directly represent them". Even if you don't include that copy in your posts (which larger companies enforce, see the typical "I work at X" disclaimers all over HN), it helps frame how your post may be interpreted.
- Lunatic666 8y ago
  I don't see him talking about the closed source flashing tool afuefi, which seemed to be the reason for the hickup in working together.
  - cptskippy 8y ago
    Richard's post made it clear that they didn't need to use it, they should be able to use UpdateCapsule.
- cptskippy 8y ago
  Yay drama! Why act like adults when we can squabble. It sounds like the folks at System76 have a limited amount of resources available and this is not an immediate priority for them. That's understandable considering the last 6 months have been a security shit show. I mean sure why not overhaul your firmware delivery system on top of everything else? It also sounds like Richard is butt hurt that they didn't notify him of their priorities. And so he passive aggressively wrote a public blog post trivializing the amount of effort it was going to take to switch and then advised people not to purchase their products. That's kind of petty. I find it really insulting when someone tells me how long it will take me to do something without knowing what constraints I'm forced to work under, so the "just a few hours" remarks annoyed me.
- netsharc 8y ago
  As someone who've never heard of LVFS or System76, this response seems to be a bit unprofessional to me. He opens and ends with passive-aggressiveness, he points to 2 tweets as if saying "How did you not see these 2 tweets!" Well okay one of them is his reply to the original blog poster's reply to another thread, but a random non-commital tweet after several months of radio silence seems unprofessional too.
Lunatic666 8y ago
I'm currently using a System76 laptop, but it's for sure my last one. The build quality is pretty poor and the touchpad is so annoying that I disabled it. When the fan broke and had to be replaced I had to take over the shipping costs and replace it myself. While I don't matter replacing parts, I don't see why I have to pay for the shipping during the warranty. Now this article on top, I'll see if I can get rid of it quickly, I went back using my old Lenovo X230 again anyway.
- ghba66 8y ago
  Where do you live? I'm pretty sure that is illegal in the EU
  - isostatic 8y ago
    I think he lives in Singapore. Consumer protection rules there weren't great from what I remember, although I only tended to buy a few things for the office from Sim Lim square
- neuromantik8086 8y ago
  I bought a lemur in 2012 and had consistent issues with overheating that caused the laptop to shut off. Bought an external fan, but that helped very little. Ended up buying a Macbook Pro. I did use a gazelle at one of my jobs, and had fewer issues with that. In general though, I'd be extremely chary of buying system76 in the future. They're basically just rebranding generic Clevo laptops with very little value added imho. If I absolutely needed a Linux laptop I'd preferring dual-booting a Mac using rEFIt, buying a Dell XPS, or virtualizing.
- znpy 8y ago
  When I sent my ThinkPad X220 to Lenovo for service under warranty, they sent UPS to my house to pick it and sent it back to me via UPS. All for free.
  - mmrezaie 8y ago
    For my ThinkPad x1 they came to the restaurant I was fixed it in like 3 minutes (had to replace the CPU fan), like a ninja. But I still cannot update the BIOS from Linux with the fwup, and fingerprint reader doesn't work. I had XPS 15 and if it wasn't because of the horrid coil whine I would have kept it. Their linux support is very good.
ddtaylor 8y ago
System76 has a littered history with firmware updates and drivers, especially for a company that brands itself as a specialist in Linux systems. If you're paying that premium in hopes you'll get a fully working system without quirks, be prepared for disappointment. I have had better luck with simply buying the most popular laptop since it's more likely to be working correctly without hours of configurations.
- dudul 8y ago
  What premium are you paying? I never found that System76 products were that expensive. I owned one a while ago. It lasted 6 years and was still working when I replaced it.
  - moondowner 8y ago
    To be honest these are premium prices: https://system76.com/laptops https://system76.com/laptops
    - organsnyder 8y ago
      Those are prices I'm comfortable paying for a ThinkPad, XPS, or Macbook. And all of them run a Unix variant (Linux or MacOS) very well. System76 needs to be offering similar levels of build quality and support for those systems to be worthwhile.
      - tedivm 8y ago
        They are not offering the same level of build quality. Not by a long shot. At my last company we started with System76 for both desktops and laptops, but ended up switching to Dell for laptops and Exxact for desktops. The System76 machines are also just Clevo laptops that are rebranded and sold. You're literally paying a "premium" for them to install a working version of linux and offer support on top.
        organsnyder 8y ago
omeid2 8y ago
As someone who is using Linux as my main OS for over a decade, I totally appreciate initiatives like LVFS that makes using Linux more seamless. Running Linux on MacBook Pro has also exposed me to the struggle of firmware updates and all that jazz. So the hard work of Richard Hughes on LVFS is not lost me but I think he could have definitely handle the whole S76 issue more professionally. The whole blog post has a very personal vendetta overtone. > The way forward from my point of view would be for System76 to spend a few hours making UpdateCapsule work correctly, another few days to build an EFI binary with the EC update, and a few more hours to write the metadata for the LVFS. I don’t require an apology, and would happily create them a OEM account on the LVFS. That is not how large organizations work. And if you're trying to build something to get large vendors on board, this demand for apology nonsense is not going to help you. PS. Don't own a S76 system, don't work for them.
- rkangel 8y ago
  > I don’t require an apology, and would happily create them a OEM account on the LVFS He is specifically not demanding an apology, and is explicitly saying he is happy to continue to work with them.
  - omeid2 8y ago
    It implies that someone owes an apology or at least an apology is fitting but the author is willing to forgo it.
    - dralley 8y ago
      Well, it sounds like they ignored his emails for 6 months, which their point of contact with him did apologize for in the reddit thread.
  - digi_owl 8y ago
    Nah, it is a passive-aggressive turn of phrase to try to make System76 look bad by being the "lesser" party. It is the kind of crap one would expect from a project spawned of the Gnome camp...
codegeek 8y ago
Aah System76. I had a terrible experience with their keyboard back in 2012 and they just said they can send a replacement keyboard but would not refund because as a consumer, it is my responsibility to install a new keyboard even though it was their fault. So I had to figure out how to become a technician, rip open the faulty keyboard and try and install the new one. Looks like they have not changed much. Good riddance.
- Xeboc 8y ago
  System76 tech support here. One of our primary principles is empowerment and enablement. I strive to teach, support, and educate individuals on Linux and hardware maintenance. We tend to have individuals handle minor repairs, as shipping a whole laptop is time consuming and exposes the hardware to the additional possibility of shipping damage or other loss. At any point in time, we are more than happy to bring a computer in and do the repair work. Unless otherwise requested, keeping a computer with an individual tends to be the best, as it allows the computer to continue to be used until the replacement part arrives.
  - theyinwhy 8y ago
    Using "empowerment and enablement" as an excuse for not doing the repair during warranty is not acceptable. Why would I want to repair a computer in warranty if I could instead spend time with my friends? If not in warranty, I of course would appreciate manuals' and spare parts' availability. But those are two very different kind of situations.
    - Xeboc 8y ago
      As I indicated: "At any point in time, we are more than happy to bring a computer in and do the repair work." No one has to do the repair work if they don't want to!
      - theyinwhy 8y ago
        That's good to know. What does your support look like? Do you send me a loaner? How long does it normally take you to do repairs?
hal9000xp 8y ago
In last few days, I actually wanted to order powerful laptop from System76. I want laptop with strong GPU (e.g. Nvidia) that will run Linux very well. Aside from System76, can anybody recommend powerful laptop fully compatible with Linux? Of course, I can buy any laptop with several GPUs and install some Linux distribution. But I don't want to spend 4000 USD and then discover that some hardware isn't supported. P.S. This time, I really don't understand why my comment is being downvoted.
- acomjean 8y ago
  I've looked into linux laptops for a bit. It seems there isn't a great resource about which laptops work well with linux and which don't. There are so many models, I imagine that is the problem. From my poking around a bit, It seems the Dell xps series (it can come with linux preinstalled), many ThinkPads and some HP machines play nice with many distributions. Wifi cards can (still) be a bit of a pain point.
- metabagel 8y ago
  I have a System 76 Galago Pro, which I absolutely love. However, the battery died, which required warranty replacement and a firmware update. But, I’m still happy with my purchase. The laptop’s features all work well under Linux, which may or may not be the case for other vendors. The only other gripe I had was that the screen was almost unreadable when I received the laptop due to tiny desktop fonts, which I was able to fix somehiw, perhaps through GNOME settings.
- opencl 8y ago
  Dell sells several workstation models with powerful GPUs and Linux preinstalled. If you don't need CUDA specifically AMD has much better Linux drivers than NVIDIA these days. http://www.dell.com/learn/us/en/555/campaigns/xps-linux-laptop_us http://www.dell.com/learn/us/en/555/campaigns/xps-linux-lapt...
  - sliken 8y ago
    AMD has much better drivers? Which? The open source ones? The binary blob ones? Compared to which nvidia drivers? I've been tracking this for some time and whenever I look the nvidia binary driver is the gold standard, intel is close, and amd's binary blob is a distant (and problematic) 3rd. So bad game reviews on linux often put a "doesn't work" in the AMD column.
iskander 8y ago
No opinions on how anyone should update firmware but I just wanted to chime in that I bought a fairly expensive System76 laptop in 2011 and was very disappointed with how rough & clunky it was.
- arghwhat 8y ago
  I always thought their early products looked rough and clunky, which has held me off their products. Their new Oryx Pro seems like a step in the right direction, though.
- davvolun 8y ago
  System76 is actually re-selling unbranded Sager/Clevo base models, customized to work smoothly with Linux. I believe there was talk from them about getting their own manufacturing up, but last I knew, that wasn't online. Whether the Linux customization is enough value-add is your call, but that's how all of these companies work.
acobster 8y ago
Their firmware updates are just straight up not working for me on my work laptop. To be fair, I've had zero gripes with how this machine has worked so far (got it about a year ago), and it's probably still the best computer I've gotten to work on. But it keeps prompting me with the same firmware update - one that supposedly disables Intel ME, a feature I definitely want disabled. But when I run the update it just prompts me a few days later to run the same update again. So I'm not at all surprised to learn that this is a proprietary system.
- cassidyjames 8y ago
  Hrm, that's strange and I haven't heard that being a widespread issue; thousands of customers have updated without issue. I'd open a support case so someone can get that sorted out for you.
- Xeboc 8y ago
  System76 support here. One of the important final steps to the firmware update is that 'load setup defaults' needs to be issued manually in the BIOS. The hardware has a limitation that even after we apply the new firmware, the settings have to applied by a manual step. This is written out in the firmware flashing steps, but it's still easy to miss! Please 'load setup defaults' in the exit tab of the BIOS (F2 on boot), at which time the Intel Management Engine will be fully disabled, and future firmware prompts will cease. If you are still getting the prompt, please reach out at support.system76.com and we will help further!
paulmd 8y ago
General FYI: most/all System76 hardware is actually rebranded models from Clevo, so the build quality issues people are discussing aren't that surprising. For example, the "Galago Pro" is actually a Clevo N130WU. https://system76.com/laptops/galago https://system76.com/laptops/galago https://www.avadirect.com/Clevo-N130WU-13-3-QHD-Core-i7-Intel-UHD-Graphics-620-Custom-Laptop/Configure/11544736 https://www.avadirect.com/Clevo-N130WU-13-3-QHD-Core-i7-Inte... Some googling suggests the Serval WS is a Clevo P775DM3-G, and the Oryx Pro is a Clevo P650SE. People upthread were wondering how they're doing all that with just 21 people or whatever, that's how. They slap a new label on Clevo hardware and dress it up with some nice photos. Most of those 21 people are probably web developers, marketing/photographers, and warehouse staff. They might not even be doing their own firmware updates, they might just be getting Clevo to deliver specific features for them. Maybe they are doing some minor OS customization, or EFI tweaks to help Linux compatibility, but they can't be doing all that much work with 21 people to spread between development and normal sales/warehouse work.
- monocasa 8y ago
  FWIW, they're supposedly switching from rebranded Clevos to their own custom laptops soon.
  - dmead 8y ago
    They have been saying that for two years.
    - cassidyjames 8y ago
      And it's been something we've been working on for more than two years. Building a US-based manufacturing plant from the ground up is a long process, but it will be worth it in the end. You can come by the factory in Denver, Colorado and see where we are! The entire company is relocating to the factory in June, and we're currently building our latest prototypes designed by the team.
      - leesalminen 8y ago
daveloyall 8y ago
From the System76 reply (emphasis mine): > LVFS is neat and we'd love to use it. We also have a couple of constraints that make that difficult: licensing/legal constraints imposed on us, plus time/effort constraints due to everything else going on. ...ok, that means there's non-free software in their machines, right?
- cassidyjames 8y ago
  Yes, just like every consumer computer at this point. But we're working on that. ;)
  - daveloyall 8y ago
    The lesson here is that your devs were not up front about that with the LVFS guys and the fallout got negative enough to go public. Keep trying! Somebody's got to do it. :)
shmerl 8y ago
I'd prefer Purism laptops, but they don't have any Ryzen+Vega options.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
cpburns2009 8y ago
So what distributions actually use LVFS? I vaguely recognize the name. The website mentions the GNOME Software center and automatically installing everything. Does it work through the package manager (apt, etc.) similar to the proprietary driver installer in Ubuntu, or does it just automatically do its own thing?

163 points by anarcat 8y ago

There's also a response from someone at System76 here: https://plus.google.com/+CassidyJames/posts/RDKMJtGoX62 https://plus.google.com/+CassidyJames/posts/RDKMJtGoX62

_asummers 8y ago
> Classy. That's a great, professional way to build relationships and really makes people want to work with you on your project. That's.... not how this should be handled. Unsure this person's position, but if they're high enough to matter, that's not the position they should be taking here, regardless of their feelings on the matter. They also didn't address the technical parts of the article besides saying "it will probably work though we haven't tested it". They didn't discuss the reason for the degradation of communication, nor the particulars of the decisions made, or even acknowledge the scenario the article outlined, instead talking about the author negatively.
- _wmd 8y ago
  It sounds like the "breakdown in communication" amounts to the LVFS maintainer not being informed, as everyone is naturally obliged to do so(!), that System76 were adopting a different strategy, and according to this reply due to a simple matter of commercial priority. Maintainer continues by indicating they do not require an apology, after all, everyone is obliged to inform them of all matters firmware! I didn't like the attitude in the original post, and I can understand why there is a little spice in System76's reply. Recommending a competing laptop brand over an issue as trivial as an alternative BIOS update mechanism that doesn't match Microsoft's compliance requirements seems like seriously sour grapes. It seems they expect System76 to invent an in-house firmware update system that does not use the official mechanism supplied by their chipset's support package, and somehow this is automatically a better outcome than what existed already. Maintainer should be reminded that toiling for free (presumably) on an important subsystem grants no special rights or entitlements, and lashing out at a vendor because they didn't toe an ideal line looks very immature edit: sadly maintainer isn't even working for free, they're a Red Hat employee
  - _asummers 8y ago
    To be clear, I wasn't making a comment on the tone of the original author. I tend to agree with you about the tone, but that person is not a company and is therefore held to slightly different standards. As far as the Microsoft thing, my read of that was that it was a vehicle for saying "everyone else already does this, it's the norm and expectation of consumers, don't be weird and proprietary" rather than wanting to bring in anything about Windows or whatever, especially since the article was talking about Linux distros. I have no ponies in this race, but I found System76's response very poor.
    - cassidyjames 8y ago
      For what it's worth, that was my personal response and not anything official or reviewed by System76 "the company." I try to retain a bit of autonomy while working for Sytem76. I agree that my tone may have been a little unprofessional itself, and that's on me. It has just been a frustrating time trying to do what's best for both our customers and the Linux ecosystem at large, and then being raked across the coals for it with a misleading and seemingly emotional blog post from a core Red Hat desktop employee and high-profile GNOME contributor. It's just not a fun thing to wake up to when you're also actively working with the guy on his other projects and contributing to GNOME itself, you know?
      - _asummers 8y ago
        We all get frustrated, I get it. I've found a good rule of thumb for those types of situations is thinking about how the post would look if you said "I work at $COMPANY and directly represent them". Even if you don't include that copy in your posts (which larger companies enforce, see the typical "I work at X" disclaimers all over HN), it helps frame how your post may be interpreted.
Lunatic666 8y ago
I don't see him talking about the closed source flashing tool afuefi, which seemed to be the reason for the hickup in working together.
- cptskippy 8y ago
  Richard's post made it clear that they didn't need to use it, they should be able to use UpdateCapsule.
cptskippy 8y ago
Yay drama! Why act like adults when we can squabble. It sounds like the folks at System76 have a limited amount of resources available and this is not an immediate priority for them. That's understandable considering the last 6 months have been a security shit show. I mean sure why not overhaul your firmware delivery system on top of everything else? It also sounds like Richard is butt hurt that they didn't notify him of their priorities. And so he passive aggressively wrote a public blog post trivializing the amount of effort it was going to take to switch and then advised people not to purchase their products. That's kind of petty. I find it really insulting when someone tells me how long it will take me to do something without knowing what constraints I'm forced to work under, so the "just a few hours" remarks annoyed me.
netsharc 8y ago
As someone who've never heard of LVFS or System76, this response seems to be a bit unprofessional to me. He opens and ends with passive-aggressiveness, he points to 2 tweets as if saying "How did you not see these 2 tweets!" Well okay one of them is his reply to the original blog poster's reply to another thread, but a random non-commital tweet after several months of radio silence seems unprofessional too.

Lunatic666 8y ago

I'm currently using a System76 laptop, but it's for sure my last one. The build quality is pretty poor and the touchpad is so annoying that I disabled it. When the fan broke and had to be replaced I had to take over the shipping costs and replace it myself. While I don't matter replacing parts, I don't see why I have to pay for the shipping during the warranty. Now this article on top, I'll see if I can get rid of it quickly, I went back using my old Lenovo X230 again anyway.

ghba66 8y ago
Where do you live? I'm pretty sure that is illegal in the EU
- isostatic 8y ago
  I think he lives in Singapore. Consumer protection rules there weren't great from what I remember, although I only tended to buy a few things for the office from Sim Lim square
neuromantik8086 8y ago
I bought a lemur in 2012 and had consistent issues with overheating that caused the laptop to shut off. Bought an external fan, but that helped very little. Ended up buying a Macbook Pro. I did use a gazelle at one of my jobs, and had fewer issues with that. In general though, I'd be extremely chary of buying system76 in the future. They're basically just rebranding generic Clevo laptops with very little value added imho. If I absolutely needed a Linux laptop I'd preferring dual-booting a Mac using rEFIt, buying a Dell XPS, or virtualizing.
znpy 8y ago
When I sent my ThinkPad X220 to Lenovo for service under warranty, they sent UPS to my house to pick it and sent it back to me via UPS. All for free.
- mmrezaie 8y ago
  For my ThinkPad x1 they came to the restaurant I was fixed it in like 3 minutes (had to replace the CPU fan), like a ninja. But I still cannot update the BIOS from Linux with the fwup, and fingerprint reader doesn't work. I had XPS 15 and if it wasn't because of the horrid coil whine I would have kept it. Their linux support is very good.

ddtaylor 8y ago

System76 has a littered history with firmware updates and drivers, especially for a company that brands itself as a specialist in Linux systems. If you're paying that premium in hopes you'll get a fully working system without quirks, be prepared for disappointment. I have had better luck with simply buying the most popular laptop since it's more likely to be working correctly without hours of configurations.

dudul 8y ago
What premium are you paying? I never found that System76 products were that expensive. I owned one a while ago. It lasted 6 years and was still working when I replaced it.
- moondowner 8y ago
  To be honest these are premium prices: https://system76.com/laptops https://system76.com/laptops
  - organsnyder 8y ago
    Those are prices I'm comfortable paying for a ThinkPad, XPS, or Macbook. And all of them run a Unix variant (Linux or MacOS) very well. System76 needs to be offering similar levels of build quality and support for those systems to be worthwhile.
    - tedivm 8y ago
      They are not offering the same level of build quality. Not by a long shot. At my last company we started with System76 for both desktops and laptops, but ended up switching to Dell for laptops and Exxact for desktops. The System76 machines are also just Clevo laptops that are rebranded and sold. You're literally paying a "premium" for them to install a working version of linux and offer support on top.
      - organsnyder 8y ago

omeid2 8y ago

As someone who is using Linux as my main OS for over a decade, I totally appreciate initiatives like LVFS that makes using Linux more seamless. Running Linux on MacBook Pro has also exposed me to the struggle of firmware updates and all that jazz. So the hard work of Richard Hughes on LVFS is not lost me but I think he could have definitely handle the whole S76 issue more professionally. The whole blog post has a very personal vendetta overtone. > The way forward from my point of view would be for System76 to spend a few hours making UpdateCapsule work correctly, another few days to build an EFI binary with the EC update, and a few more hours to write the metadata for the LVFS. I don’t require an apology, and would happily create them a OEM account on the LVFS. That is not how large organizations work. And if you're trying to build something to get large vendors on board, this demand for apology nonsense is not going to help you. PS. Don't own a S76 system, don't work for them.

rkangel 8y ago
> I don’t require an apology, and would happily create them a OEM account on the LVFS He is specifically not demanding an apology, and is explicitly saying he is happy to continue to work with them.
- omeid2 8y ago
  It implies that someone owes an apology or at least an apology is fitting but the author is willing to forgo it.
  - dralley 8y ago
    Well, it sounds like they ignored his emails for 6 months, which their point of contact with him did apologize for in the reddit thread.
- digi_owl 8y ago
  Nah, it is a passive-aggressive turn of phrase to try to make System76 look bad by being the "lesser" party. It is the kind of crap one would expect from a project spawned of the Gnome camp...

codegeek 8y ago

Aah System76. I had a terrible experience with their keyboard back in 2012 and they just said they can send a replacement keyboard but would not refund because as a consumer, it is my responsibility to install a new keyboard even though it was their fault. So I had to figure out how to become a technician, rip open the faulty keyboard and try and install the new one. Looks like they have not changed much. Good riddance.

Xeboc 8y ago
System76 tech support here. One of our primary principles is empowerment and enablement. I strive to teach, support, and educate individuals on Linux and hardware maintenance. We tend to have individuals handle minor repairs, as shipping a whole laptop is time consuming and exposes the hardware to the additional possibility of shipping damage or other loss. At any point in time, we are more than happy to bring a computer in and do the repair work. Unless otherwise requested, keeping a computer with an individual tends to be the best, as it allows the computer to continue to be used until the replacement part arrives.
- theyinwhy 8y ago
  Using "empowerment and enablement" as an excuse for not doing the repair during warranty is not acceptable. Why would I want to repair a computer in warranty if I could instead spend time with my friends? If not in warranty, I of course would appreciate manuals' and spare parts' availability. But those are two very different kind of situations.
  - Xeboc 8y ago
    As I indicated: "At any point in time, we are more than happy to bring a computer in and do the repair work." No one has to do the repair work if they don't want to!
    - theyinwhy 8y ago
      That's good to know. What does your support look like? Do you send me a loaner? How long does it normally take you to do repairs?

hal9000xp 8y ago

In last few days, I actually wanted to order powerful laptop from System76. I want laptop with strong GPU (e.g. Nvidia) that will run Linux very well. Aside from System76, can anybody recommend powerful laptop fully compatible with Linux? Of course, I can buy any laptop with several GPUs and install some Linux distribution. But I don't want to spend 4000 USD and then discover that some hardware isn't supported. P.S. This time, I really don't understand why my comment is being downvoted.

acomjean 8y ago
I've looked into linux laptops for a bit. It seems there isn't a great resource about which laptops work well with linux and which don't. There are so many models, I imagine that is the problem. From my poking around a bit, It seems the Dell xps series (it can come with linux preinstalled), many ThinkPads and some HP machines play nice with many distributions. Wifi cards can (still) be a bit of a pain point.
metabagel 8y ago
I have a System 76 Galago Pro, which I absolutely love. However, the battery died, which required warranty replacement and a firmware update. But, I’m still happy with my purchase. The laptop’s features all work well under Linux, which may or may not be the case for other vendors. The only other gripe I had was that the screen was almost unreadable when I received the laptop due to tiny desktop fonts, which I was able to fix somehiw, perhaps through GNOME settings.
opencl 8y ago
Dell sells several workstation models with powerful GPUs and Linux preinstalled. If you don't need CUDA specifically AMD has much better Linux drivers than NVIDIA these days. http://www.dell.com/learn/us/en/555/campaigns/xps-linux-laptop_us http://www.dell.com/learn/us/en/555/campaigns/xps-linux-lapt...
- sliken 8y ago
  AMD has much better drivers? Which? The open source ones? The binary blob ones? Compared to which nvidia drivers? I've been tracking this for some time and whenever I look the nvidia binary driver is the gold standard, intel is close, and amd's binary blob is a distant (and problematic) 3rd. So bad game reviews on linux often put a "doesn't work" in the AMD column.

iskander 8y ago

No opinions on how anyone should update firmware but I just wanted to chime in that I bought a fairly expensive System76 laptop in 2011 and was very disappointed with how rough & clunky it was.

arghwhat 8y ago
I always thought their early products looked rough and clunky, which has held me off their products. Their new Oryx Pro seems like a step in the right direction, though.
davvolun 8y ago
System76 is actually re-selling unbranded Sager/Clevo base models, customized to work smoothly with Linux. I believe there was talk from them about getting their own manufacturing up, but last I knew, that wasn't online. Whether the Linux customization is enough value-add is your call, but that's how all of these companies work.

acobster 8y ago

Their firmware updates are just straight up not working for me on my work laptop. To be fair, I've had zero gripes with how this machine has worked so far (got it about a year ago), and it's probably still the best computer I've gotten to work on. But it keeps prompting me with the same firmware update - one that supposedly disables Intel ME, a feature I definitely want disabled. But when I run the update it just prompts me a few days later to run the same update again. So I'm not at all surprised to learn that this is a proprietary system.

cassidyjames 8y ago
Hrm, that's strange and I haven't heard that being a widespread issue; thousands of customers have updated without issue. I'd open a support case so someone can get that sorted out for you.
Xeboc 8y ago
System76 support here. One of the important final steps to the firmware update is that 'load setup defaults' needs to be issued manually in the BIOS. The hardware has a limitation that even after we apply the new firmware, the settings have to applied by a manual step. This is written out in the firmware flashing steps, but it's still easy to miss! Please 'load setup defaults' in the exit tab of the BIOS (F2 on boot), at which time the Intel Management Engine will be fully disabled, and future firmware prompts will cease. If you are still getting the prompt, please reach out at support.system76.com and we will help further!

paulmd 8y ago

General FYI: most/all System76 hardware is actually rebranded models from Clevo, so the build quality issues people are discussing aren't that surprising. For example, the "Galago Pro" is actually a Clevo N130WU. https://system76.com/laptops/galago https://system76.com/laptops/galago https://www.avadirect.com/Clevo-N130WU-13-3-QHD-Core-i7-Intel-UHD-Graphics-620-Custom-Laptop/Configure/11544736 https://www.avadirect.com/Clevo-N130WU-13-3-QHD-Core-i7-Inte... Some googling suggests the Serval WS is a Clevo P775DM3-G, and the Oryx Pro is a Clevo P650SE. People upthread were wondering how they're doing all that with just 21 people or whatever, that's how. They slap a new label on Clevo hardware and dress it up with some nice photos. Most of those 21 people are probably web developers, marketing/photographers, and warehouse staff. They might not even be doing their own firmware updates, they might just be getting Clevo to deliver specific features for them. Maybe they are doing some minor OS customization, or EFI tweaks to help Linux compatibility, but they can't be doing all that much work with 21 people to spread between development and normal sales/warehouse work.

monocasa 8y ago
FWIW, they're supposedly switching from rebranded Clevos to their own custom laptops soon.
- dmead 8y ago
  They have been saying that for two years.
  - cassidyjames 8y ago
    And it's been something we've been working on for more than two years. Building a US-based manufacturing plant from the ground up is a long process, but it will be worth it in the end. You can come by the factory in Denver, Colorado and see where we are! The entire company is relocating to the factory in June, and we're currently building our latest prototypes designed by the team.
    - leesalminen 8y ago

daveloyall 8y ago

From the System76 reply (emphasis mine): > LVFS is neat and we'd love to use it. We also have a couple of constraints that make that difficult: licensing/legal constraints imposed on us, plus time/effort constraints due to everything else going on. ...ok, that means there's non-free software in their machines, right?

cassidyjames 8y ago
Yes, just like every consumer computer at this point. But we're working on that. ;)
- daveloyall 8y ago
  The lesson here is that your devs were not up front about that with the LVFS guys and the fallout got negative enough to go public. Keep trying! Somebody's got to do it. :)

shmerl 8y ago

I'd prefer Purism laptops, but they don't have any Ryzen+Vega options.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

cpburns2009 8y ago

So what distributions actually use LVFS? I vaguely recognize the name. The website mentions the GNOME Software center and automatically installing everything. Does it work through the package manager (apt, etc.) similar to the proprietary driver installer in Ubuntu, or does it just automatically do its own thing?