15 ms·

Mindfulness may have been over-hyped

171 points by abhi3 8y ago

eptcyka 8y ago
Usually, practicing being mindful just brings about more anxiety than if I were to lose myself into doing something that has the capability of swallowing me whole - such as playing video games, running, driving, having long walks.
- eof 8y ago
  In my experience, mindfulness is like working out; it is temporarily uncomfortable (atleast/especially at first) in exchange for comfort over time. Running is somewhat similar in that at first it is uncomfortable but your body learns to lean into it. That being said, prolonged periods of mindfulness and focus can bring about unparalleled states of bliss, but those are fleeting.
- phailhaus 8y ago
  > lose myself into doing something that has the capability of swallowing me whole That's what being mindful is all about! It teaches you how to be present in the moment and let those negative anxious thoughts pass by rather than consume you.
  - rwnspace 8y ago
    Well, that's just as much something that can be learned through CBT or other means, and it's worth keeping in mind that negative effects are not unheard of [1]. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/aug/25/mental-health-meditation https://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/aug/25/mental-healt...
    - deleted 8y ago
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  - ljm 8y ago
    This isn’t meditation or mindfulness, it’s just an aspirational sales pitch for it that says nothing about how fucking hard it is when you’re dealing with non-trivial stuff. Nobody at any level below enlightenment will let go of any particular emotion and let it pass by, just by engaging in this practice. There is no letting go unless your meditation practice has first allowed you to fully express that which is holding you back. Meditation isn’t just getting into the zone.
    - phailhaus 8y ago
      > Nobody at any level below enlightenment will let go of any particular emotion and let it pass by, just by engaging in this practice. Have you tried? It's not easy. It's taken months but my anxiety has noticeably decreased, though there's still a long way to go. Several times I've "let my guard down" and relapsed, thinking that I didn't have to try so hard anymore. I've come to admit that it's going to be a daily thing that I have to watch for, though it does get easier. > There is no letting go unless your meditation practice has first allowed you to fully express that which is holding you back. Yes, that's exactly what you have to do. You can't let something go if you don't know what it is. Maybe you have an inaccurate idea of what mindfulness is?
    - empath75 8y ago
      I’m no zen monk but I do this on a very surface level, detaching myself from my current emotions and trying to observe them going by. I’ve found it useful in controlling anger and anxiety. Does it solve it? No. But I do find it useful and it doesn’t take that much effort or practice to get some value out of it.
  - sridca 8y ago
    > let those negative anxious thoughts pass by rather than consume you. Lol, I'd much rather prefer for those negative anxious thoughts to not occur in the first place (and there is a superior method to achieve this), much less having to have to let them pass by or consume me. This is why meditation is not a solution.
    - newfoundglory 8y ago
      Most people will experience anxious/negative feelings throughout their life, and improving how they handle them will be useful on all those occasions. I don’t know how you think you are going to prevent this from happening to you - perhaps you are thinking specifically of an anxiety disorder or other extreme?
      - sridca 8y ago
        I've successfully disarmed myself off most of the normal everyday anxieties by investigating them one by one. What's left will also go away in due time.
    - phailhaus 8y ago
      Trying to suppress your thoughts is not a solution either, that just gives them more weight. When you let them by, you realize that they were not worth the attention in the first place, and they fade away over time. There is no quick fix.
      - sridca 8y ago
        suppression != not-occurring
        phailhaus 8y ago
        Unfortunately I think you'll find that not everything can be solved, and that you'll always have some anxiety. It would actually be strange if you didn't, everyone has these thoughts every so often. The trick is to not let them take over you, and just move on. I suspect you're doing this without realizing it; you're analyzing your anxieties until you understand them, and then they stop happening over time as you stop giving them so much attention.
  - palimpsests 8y ago
    Being present in the moment - is one aspect of mindfulness. That this can facilitate less "holding on" to thoughts and emotional states is a nice side effect. For me and the communities I am a part of - I've noticed something that feels "deeper", here, which is that I've learned to not try to avoid things that feel negative - really, to befriend and even welcome every and all emotional state with curiosity and compassion. In this way, I've felt much less reactive, and much more capable of introspecting on what is going on within myself. This, combined with various other practices, support, and therapy, has been uncovering some really big changes in my life, both internally and externally. This reminds me of a concept that is frequently discussed by a teacher and author I recommend - Tara Brach (she has a great podcast series). She talks about the twin wings of compassion and awareness that are fundamental to many schools of Buddhism. Awareness === mindfulness, mastery of the mind and thought. Without compassion, i.e., opening of the heart - mindfulness doesn't have the same kind of potency for cultivation. It's hard to fly with only one wing. There's been a very large push for mindfulness but less so for unconditional love. Probably because we are a very cognitively-focused society, with many, many powerful disembodying influences. To stay connected to ones heart is a somatic experience. In my own experience and, again, hearing from many others, this is much more challenging than practicing different kinds of mindfulness meditation on a regular basis. Certainly not even remotely close to impossible - it's a natural state of our physiology that's often been deconditioned. There are many tools, techniques, and systems to help us re-access this state. With compassion, unconditional love can be brought to all aspects of yourself, all parts of experience that our egoic states might want to categorize as "bad" (or "good"). And, if we can really give this to ourselves, then we bring it out into the world, to share with as many beings as possible.
- deleted 8y ago
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- glenndebacker 8y ago
  That is because you are too focused on doing it "right". That was something that I also had problems with in the beginning. Anxiety went away from the moment that I've read and accepted that there is no right or bad way to being mindful or meditate. Also not being negative against bad feelings that could arise when practicing and just observe was a big step for me and made it easier to make it go away or make it less powerfull.
deleted 8y ago
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duncan_bayne 8y ago
Is there a name for this cycle? 1. Useful $THING gets mentioned in the news (mindfulness, AI, cryptocurrency, ...) 2. $THING gets hyped into orbit ($THING consultants, $THING apps, $THING books, $THING as a way of life, ...) 3. We start seeing articles like "$THING has been over-hyped" or "$THING results not replicated". 4. $THING drops out of the limelight, sometimes into a worse position than it started in because of the 'negative' press. 5. A new $THING emerges ... Edited: not trying to be snarky here (see below for the actual term I was looking for). It's just that this is a pattern I've seen repeated so many times, in tech. and elsewhere.
- jdelaney 8y ago
  There's something similar to what you describe called the Hype Cycle - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hype_cycle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hype_cycle
  - duncan_bayne 8y ago
    Ah, thanks - that's what I meant.
  - alex_young 8y ago
    Alternatively: Six phases of a big project - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_phases_of_a_big_project https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_phases_of_a_big_project
- bamboozled 8y ago
  It feels like this is actually a real social phenomenon made more intense by the Internet and social media.
- MaybiusStrip 8y ago
  Mindfulness and meditation have been popular for thousands of years...
  - gowld 8y ago
    The Silicon Valley /"Business School" mindfulness fad is much more recent, past decade or so.
qntty 8y ago
Alternatively: meditation turns out to be harder than popularizers tend to let on
- agumonkey 8y ago
  It's also probably impossible to assess whether someone is or not meditating.
  - eeZah7Ux 8y ago
    A lot of research has shown permanent changes in neural activation patterns in long-time, committed meditators.
  - loup-vaillant 8y ago
    You can still ask people different things and see how it turns out. If you can't assess whether they were meditating or not, just record whether you asked them to.
  - gowld 8y ago
    It's a bit easier to assess whether you yourself are getting into the meditative state when you try. (Still, that's made difficulty by not knowing what "experts" mean when they describe a meditative state.)
  - the-pigeon 8y ago
    I thought there was particular brain wave patterns associated with it. Which if so you could certainly measure them.
    - agumonkey 8y ago
      good point, i forgot about that
    - proverbialbunny 8y ago
      There was a study where they wrote some software with a bar on it representing brain activity in the area of the brain that decreases when meditating. They then told people to try to get the bar to go down. This worked, and showed that meditation can one day be made easy, and is a valuable tool that can be studied in a clear way.
jacquesm 8y ago
You don't say. I've seen companies that really couldn't afford it get sucked in to this nonsense at great expense and with very little to show for it. But some 'mindfulness consultant' made off with the loot. Besides the fact that you can't really force employees into stuff that they wouldn't do out of their own volition (imagine a company that suddenly forced all the employees to visit Scientology sessions regularly or something that effect). These hype cycles only serve the people that peddle the hype. Of course people are totally free to do what they want in their own time and if they feel like spending that on 'mindfulness' (which conveniently is so vague it could mean just about anything) then that's fine. Back in the 80's everybody seemed to have their personal Guru, now we have this. 20 years from now we'll probably have something else that takes its place.
- hedvig 8y ago
  Shame the only point of reference is as paid service rather than meditation you do yourself. Most people could do well to do anything that peels them away from the media stream (including hackernews) or libertarian news sites, etc.
  - itronitron 8y ago
    yeah, if you are paying for meditation then you are doing it wrong
- rubicon33 8y ago
  The nutrition space is filled with this shit too. I've had so many friends go "Gluten Free" with nothing at all to show for it, besides vague claims of feeling better. There's a 65 year old guy that just finished his 30,000th big mac [1] and meanwhile people are trying to tell me that the piece of toast I had for breakfast is causing systemic inflammation and killing me. SMH. [1] http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/wisconsin-man-eats-30-000th-big-mac-hamburger-article-1.3975373 http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/wisconsin-man-eats-...
  - GuiA 8y ago
    Big Macs aren’t particularly unhealthy. Bread, lettuce, tomato, “cheese”, beef... the sauce is the worst offender but there isn’t much of it. Fries and sodas are much worse for you.
gowld 8y ago
I never understood the difference or relationship between trace-like "meditation" and "mindfulness" (which I thought is something like introspecting into your mental state to recognize and defuse your emotions, like the "HALT: Hunger, Anger, Loneliness, and Tiredness" self-check)
- justinpombrio 8y ago
  There are many kinds of meditation. Three that I know of: (i) focusing on the sensations of your breath, either in your nostrils or your abdomen, while maintaining peripheral awareness; (ii) practicing feeling "loving kindness" towards people; (iii) visualizing complex shapes. I'm not sure what you mean by "trace-like", but I suspect that it would describe some forms of meditation but not others. I believe that "mindfulness" is also used in more than one way, and as a result may or may not refer to a kind of meditation. I have a book "The Mind Illuminated", which discusses meditation (i) in great detail, and suggests a self-check as you begin meditating, though with different steps than HALT. Disclaimer: I know very little about meditation, and some of this might be wrong. But it's certainly complicated, and words refer to many different things.
- sudosteph 8y ago
  Transcendental meditation is probably the trance like one you have in mind, and that's very different from the far more established Buddhist practice of "mindfulness" which is traditionally practiced via meditation. Transcendental meditation is just repeating a nonsense phrase over and over. Both practices typically have you sit still for 15 minutes, but that's where the similarities end. Mindfulness practice encompasses cultivating awareness of internal states, so the HALT thing can be seen as a limited form of that. The meditation aspect is typically used more to practice non-reactivity, body awareness, and to understand the temporary nature of things. For example, in one practice you sit still and make a mental note of all the sounds you hear. You hear them start and end, consider the qualities of the sound (loud, rhythmic, high pitch, etc) and you notice your reaction to them (do you get startled when the ice maker goes off? Are the sounds of birds calming?). You allow yourself to welcome new sounds into your perception, and try not to linger or dwell on old ones when they're gone. Obviously it's not directly practical to most things, but the idea is that you learn to feel alright with the temporary nature of things, pleasant or unpleasant, and can then apply that to your own emotions or other external situations.
Zak 8y ago
I'd compare it to a physical workout: it's not necessarily a good treatment for a specific disease or injury and may even be harmful to a person who isn't well. Being in shape, however makes a person generally more resilient to disease and injury.
Insanity 8y ago
When I see mindfulness mentioned, I am often reminded of my eastern philosophy classes. Mindfulness is not a 'moment of the day', it's a way of living your life. The idea was that in the west, we would take these ideas and try to fit them into a western world which is a world where time == money. So you get these things like 'mindfulness classes' where, for one hour, you practice being in a state of mindfulness whilst the rest of the week you go through your life as usual. I guess that when we took the idea of mindfulness and put it in a package that fit our society, it might have gotten hyped and more distant from its essence. This just to state that mindfulness might still be worth your time - just not the 'prepackaged' version. * Small disclaimer: I do not practice it, I'm just being a parrot of some philosophy classes that I thought were interesting.
- yjftsjthsd-h 8y ago
  In fairness, "do this one thing in a tiny fragment of your time and reap benefits continually" works fine for quite a lot of things around well-being, mostly excercise.
- criddell 8y ago
  Kurt Vonnegut made me more mindful before I even knew that was a word. In A Man Without a Country he relays some advice given to him by his uncle: > I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is. Since reading that ten years ago I've done that almost daily. Often I'm only saying it to my dog but it certainly has made me appreciate the small moments that can be wonderful.
sfRattan 8y ago
No kidding. Dealt with pitches for 'mindfulness' as a practicing stoic for years. "Dude, you should check out mindfulness. You'd really be into it." Nope. As best I could ever tell, mindfulness was a pop-psych pastiche of various bits of Buddhism, Daoism, and Stoicism designed to sell self-help books and consulting hours. I can't speak for Buddhism and I've heard that the Daodejing appears cryptic now because the body of contemporary Chinese literature it frequently alludes to has been largely lost to history. But the surviving late stoic works are surprisingly accessible, even in stilted translations, making it much easier to see through attempts to repackage old ideas and make a quick buck.
- mattmanser 8y ago
  They're pretty clear in the article that it does work. But it's been over-hyped.
- emmanuel_1234 8y ago
  Hoping to peak your interest, Stoicisim and Buddhism are a lot similar than they seem. The way I see it, Buddhism talks a lot about the idea of "mind workout" (meditation) to be able to draw conclusion (insights), whereas Stoicism uses only discourse and logic. The conclusions are roughly the same though, for example the emphasis on equanimity, happiness and virtues in both philosophy. In practice, and to draw a shitty analogy: using logic, you know you shouldn't eat that cupcake because it's 800kcal. You can also curb your sugar addiction so you don't feel so hungry for cupcakes. That being said I agree with you: "mindfulness" in isolation is just a buzzword, which is what this article is trying to say.
  - sfRattan 8y ago
    I've looked into Buddhism generally and come to the conclusion that, while it provides about as useful a framework for living well as Stoicism, it's a more complete religious system than I'm interested in. I don't want to treat Buddhism like a buffet and then call myself a Buddhist. Stoic physics, for a contrasting example, are taken literally by no one and can be safely left out of the daily practice of Stoicism (though pneuma and logos are often useful as metaphors).
thepumpkin1979 8y ago
I can tell it’s a billion dollar business, I launched a Meditation app two months ago, we had good retention and users were loving the app. Then the guy we hired to do the voice over disappeared with no explanation so we couldn’t fulfill our promise of “daily meditation” because the voice was not the same. 15 days later I understood why: We received a Cease and Desist from one of the companies behind the top meditation and mindfulness apps in the AppStore. They certainly don’t want anybody to enter that niche.
- rhizome 8y ago
  A cease and desist based on what?
  - jacquesm 8y ago
    Not being mindful to their god given right to make a profit?
- faceyspacey 8y ago
  Can you elaborate on the cease and desist? Is there a patent on daily meditations. Sounds hardly "mindful" (without knowing the details).
  - thepumpkin1979 8y ago
    The cease and desist included, in addition to some screens they said we copied from their design, part of the scripts which I wasn't aware they copyrighted. We didn't copy anything, the text from the meditation we took it from Shunryu Suzuki's book.
    - budadre75 8y ago
      how do they even copyright other's work as their own?
    - namlem 8y ago
      You can't have a copyright for text that someone else wrote unless they sell it to you.
fourthark 8y ago
"Or it may not have. We don't really know anything." I find these articles very frustrating. "Maybe it's good, sounds like of good, right? But studies are inconclusive!" So what are you saying? And why so many stock photos?
matte_black 8y ago
Mindfulness brings no advantage except the realization that we are not our mind, that we exist as a being beyond it, that our thoughts are mostly response to stimulus. If you ignore stimulus, there are no thoughts. If you observe the mind intently, it inevitably struggles to do much thinking about anything. What is profound about this conclusion? Nothing. It does not lead to better memories. It does not lead to more satisfaction. It does not bring more joy. It does not make you more productive. Does it help you focus better? Maybe. But practicing to actually focus is much more efficient.
- jm__87 8y ago
  There is a difference between knowing something objectively and experiencing it subjectively. The really hardcore meditators do it not just so they can recount the experience of emptiness to someone but so they can actually feel it and learn from the experience itself firsthand. It's like asking someone who did psychedelics to explain it to you. They'll always tell you the experience is not something you can understand with words alone.
chaseha 8y ago
The comments here so far seem to be focusing on the click-baity title... the article is actually a good review of mindfulness research and next steps in the field
- dimal 8y ago
  90% of it was touting the benefits. I kept reading to see if it would get to the part where it’s all bunk, but it never did.
mmajcher 8y ago
Here's a talk on the subject from famous buddhist monk and teacher Ajahn Brahm. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGjXEM1HZ54&t=1s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGjXEM1HZ54&t=1s TLDR There are other things necessary for mindfulness/meditation to really take off. Things like ethics, right view and other parts of Eightfold Path (buddhist practice). Those give a mind basic clarity and joy necessary for successful practice.
ecwilson 8y ago
Well, mindfulness certainly has been overhyped. Apps and gurus have pushed it as a cure-all and people have eaten it up because our society is broken and people are over stressed. Mindfulness is simply an introductory technique meant to be expanded upon. Personally, I've still found it very useful. When I'm meditating frequently, I'm less reactive -- it's like there's this new sense of "self" that is observing and controlling my brain, whereas before, or when my meditation habit lapses, my brain is just doing it's thing in a more reactive way. This has been incredibly useful both personally and professionally.
- kaycebasques 8y ago
  My go-to is to spend 5 minutes explicitly relaxing my body. It increases my self-awareness and ability to focus while reducing stress.
- jonny_eh 8y ago
  I don't think our society is broken, at least not more-so compared to any other generation.
  - cal5k 8y ago
    Ironically the "society is broken" narrative, aside from being unsupported by the evidence, is often used to sell mindfulness products & services.
    - FundThrowaway 8y ago
      I'd argue that the broken society narrative is a subjective opinion and not objectively quantfiable. One man's broken society is another man's utopia, it's all dependent on your personal beliefs.
      - collyw 8y ago
        Its probably as dependent on your position in such a society.
    - 8y ago
Mikeb85 8y ago
Mindfulness isn't overhyped, but it also doesn't work if you're not committed. Mindfulness seminars or apps aren't going to change you, they might be a nice introduction, but meditation is a practice that you need to make part of your life to truly get results.
anoncoward1234 8y ago
Mindfulness isn't over-hyped. Mindfulness takes effort. There's crazy videos of buddhist monks walking on their thumbs. People can raise their body temperature several degrees at will (and it's how a lot of open ocean swimmers survive, say, crossing the english channel). But it takes practice, every day, for years and you can't fake it - you're body knows you're cheating and can't be bribed. Given that - how do you do a statistical analysis across the population of mindfulness meditation vs. pill popping? Pills always work, often with horrible debilitating side effects (yay Opioids!). Meanwhile the monk I met who learned to walk again after being confined to a wheelchair (gymnastics injury) had to sit under a tree for several years doing muscle exercises and willing the pain away. So of course science can't rationalize it. How do you measure the strength of will of people? It's not so easy to put these sorts of things into a study. So I guess we'll keep eating the poison pill. Shrug.
- yjftsjthsd-h 8y ago
  > Pills always work We are clearly on different things.
- wilsonnb 8y ago
  People heal from injuries using physical therapy on a regular basis. I also don't know what walking on ones thumbs has to do with mindfullness. You don't need to do a statistical analysis. We have other tools that can be used like double blind trials comparing meditation and medication. Anyways, I think you should be very careful about placing much stock in anything that can't be studied in a scientific way. Such a thing would by definition have no measurable effect on the world or be unchangeable.
ahartmetz 8y ago
This seems to be a phenomenon similar to "agile washing". It actually works if you internalize it, turn it over in your mind and make it your own. It doesn't work if you just hire a trainer and otherwise treat it as a necessary evil. Based on the opinion of a friend who reports good results from reading a book about mindfulness and practicing it. There are a bunch of similar comments here, this is just a slightly different angle on it.
spicymaki 8y ago
Yes, extracting the mindfulness techniques out of vipassana practice and then trying to use it to cure PTSD, anxiety, and poor work performance is bound to fail. Being mindful of your neurotic behavior is useful, but it does not help unless you act and change the circumstances that is causing the problem.
- stopnamingnuts 8y ago
  Can letting go be the change that qualifies under this definition? For most of my users the problem making them (and me) miserable is not the absence of the minor, nice-to-have feature which they have turned into a major defect in their mind. It's the neurosis itself. The change they need to make is to lighten up rather than dancing in the entryway of my cube on tiptoes like they have to tinkle until I break down and work on their pet priority. (edit for clarity)
- dimal 8y ago
  The article gives examples of how it helps with PTSD. It doesn’t “fail”. It doesn’t totally cure it, it that’s a high bar for any psychological intervention.
- glenndebacker 8y ago
  I have PTSD and practice mindfulness/buddhism and while it doesn't cure it, it certainly does help a lot. You can only act and change the circumstances when you have some new insights and there is where mindfulness/buddhism helps me. It is certainly not the case of I'm meditating and miraculously all my problems go away... Personally I don't think that mindfulness/medition/... is overhyped but the tools/apps/courses are. There is really no need to spends hunderds of euro's to being mindfull or learn the practices.
silentsea90 8y ago
$$$ via attention seeking articles : First X gets hyped thanks to tons of articles from publications like this, then there are counter articles calling X overhyped. Then there are articles calling for balance/nuance in X. X = AI, mindfulness, blockchain, health tracking apps, self driving cars, yoga... News businesses will create a hype curve for every phenomenon.
- wepple 8y ago
  I realized this the other day in the shower: media outlets basically argue with themselves to create their own hype cycles. First it’s a fringe crazy idea, then it’s the new hotness, then it should be a part of your daily life, then someone decides they’re edgy and it’s not for them, then it’s basically cancer, then a story of how it grew too fast and has collapsed. And the funny thing is, it’s almost a negative signal of what’s valuable. By the time The Guardian or CNN is talking about bitcoin, you have no chance of making a dime.
jknoepfler 8y ago
As someone who meditates daily, I would be surprised if meditation had substantial therapeutic benefit for anything beyond some behavioral disorders. Meditation for me is about truth seeking. I emerge from zazen feeling as though I understand myself and the world around me more honestly. It has long term implications for how I think and behave, certainly, but probably not in any medically interesting sense. I don't expect studying physics or building a deck to change my health outcomes measurably. Meditating isn't different in kind. The value that I gain from "just sitting" is not something I can articulate very well in words. I would certainly encourage others to meditate daily, but meditation won't mend broken bones or unclog arteries or replace neurotransmitters the body can't produce enough of naturally. It's just sitting, after all.
- dwaltrip 8y ago
  > feeling as though I understand myself and the world around me more honestly That sounds like it could be rather therapeutic for many folks. Small changes in perspectives can make a big difference, I think.
macawfish 8y ago
Say the same people responsible for the overhyping headlines. Obnoxious! Meanwhile at University of Wisconsin, Madison: Study reveals gene expression changes with meditation https://news.wisc.edu/study-reveals-gene-expression-changes-with-meditation/ https://news.wisc.edu/study-reveals-gene-expression-changes-...
danschumann 8y ago
Wim Hof is where it's at though. Cold exposure and breathing
tim333 8y ago
The article talks a lot about PTSD but mindfulness meditation was not designed for that so it's maybe not surprising it doesn't fix it. Funnily enough they recently seem to have found a fix with MDMA https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/mdma-ecstasy-mdma-post-traumatic-stress-disorder-veterans-a8332561.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/mdma-ecstasy-mdma-... Mindfulness, according to Wikipedia: >In Buddhist teachings, mindfulness is utilized to develop self-knowledge and wisdom that gradually lead to what is described as enlightenment (by the way there were recent discussions of meditation, more of the get thing done variety, by the Sapiens guy here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13905249 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13905249 and a link to Seinfeld on Meditation https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13909346 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13909346 which I'm having a look at)
- ghthor 8y ago
  Id consider the induced state when I've tried MDMA to be very similar to mindfulness. It feels like I have better communication with my body, and it's easier to listen to it.
suneilp 8y ago
There is too much analysis of mindfulness and meditation. So you'll end up with analyzing yourself too much while looking for that glorious state of detaching your self from your self to get into that witness mode and apply all the philosophies, ideals, influences crammed into your head to each thought you have. So my suggestion is while meditating, drop all that stuff, sit alone at home/indoor, or quiet outdoor area, and just be meditative while listening to your breath instead of "meditating", and trust you understand basic human decency. Being yogic-like, or whatever, doesn't mean you have to be what people commonly think that means. Just be you. That's how I've always viewed yoga/tantra as at it's core. There is more to yoga and tantra than that but there is no need to go there unless you're interested. For most people, they just want to de-stress and heal their mind and body and be themselves. The regular practice of meditation like this extends into regular activities and has improved my productivity, tempered my reactivity to shit, etc.
dvcrn 8y ago
If it wasn’t this overhyped, and if not everyone and their dog told me to try it, it would have never crossed my mind. If it works or not, I don’t know but I enjoy my moment of silence a lot. I also love that it gives me more and more frequently moments where I realize where and when I actually am instead of moving on autopilot through my day. As cliche as it sounds, I for example stopped listening to music on the train and just listen to my surroundings and “be there”. My social media and phone addiction almost completely disappeared and I’m just in general a nicer person. Again, what of that is actually attributed to meditation and mindfulness, I don’t know but it’s been great.
moreorless 8y ago
Ask 20 "experts" on what it is and you get 20 different answers. :P
maroonblazer 8y ago
The original article appears here with the much less click-baity headline: "Peering into the meditating mind" https://www.knowablemagazine.org/article/mind/2018/peering-meditating-mind https://www.knowablemagazine.org/article/mind/2018/peering-m...
throwaway84742 8y ago
I think the entire benefit of this (assuming there is any) is in setting aside a few minutes per day to fully relax. I’m also pretty sure a power nap would be better, but it’s generally less socially acceptable, especially in a work environment.
hikarudo 8y ago
There's an article [1] entitled "Meditation en masse - how colonialism sparked the global Vipassana movement". When the British conquered the Buddhist kingdom of Burma, Buddhism lost the protection it had from the king. The laity then organized in order to defend their Buddhist institutions, and people began to study the dhamma like never before. This gave rise to talented monks who preached to the laity. Then Ledi Sayadaw, a Burmese monk, began preaching that meditation was not something that only monks who dedicated their lives to it could do, but was available to anyone. This led to a lineage of lay teachers of meditation, one of whom was Goenka, the founder of the Vipassana meditation movement. In short, the modern Vipassana movement has its origins in the popularization of meditation which was a result of British colonialism in Burma. [1] https://tricycle.org/magazine/meditation-en-masse/ https://tricycle.org/magazine/meditation-en-masse/
- curlcntr 8y ago
  I have the book the author of that article wrote (The Birth of Insight: Meditation, Modern Buddhism, and the Burmese Monk Ledi Sayadaw). Its an interesting book. Historical perspective on ideas is fascinating.
curlcntr 8y ago
Mindfulness style meditation without any goals or objectives, no clock or apps. No expectations. Just the beauty of it. For me, that has been most consistent with the nature of the practice itself.
shekharshan 8y ago
Buddha gave the path of end of suffering as eight noble qualities: "right view", "right intention", "right speech", "right action", "right effort", "right livelihood", "right mindfulness", and "right concentration". Notice "right mindfulness" is different than "right concentration" and it is just 1/8th of the path. When your hypothesis is 1/8th of the complete picture, of course your studies will prove it does not work.
wizardofmysore 8y ago
I have been practicing mindfulness meditation for the past five years and it has shown positive benefits for mental health in terms of being less reactive and calm. My immunity has also increased, I used to have a lot of allergies and used to get throat infection regularly but I don't now. One observation is that mindfulness meditation in the night reduced sleep quality. Second is that mindfulness meditation is another exercise. It is aimed at increasing focus, since what you are doing is trying to focus. It isn't a cure for every mental ailment.
thisisit 8y ago
I am not surprised because Mindfulness is not a cure-all. I recently read Goleman's Emotional Intelligence. One of the key takeaways for me was the nature of mindfulness/meditation. To paraphase Goleman Mindfulness/meditation works by alleviating your mood. So, if there is lot of anger or you tend to get worried a lot, meditation works. But, if you tend to be more dispirited most of the time then meditation actually doesn't work for you. A better solution is to try and get into an upbeat mood. Exercise, exciting adventure sports etc might be a better option.
vermaden 8y ago
A lot of things today are overhyped.
c12 8y ago
The self-help 'there is a book and a subscription and an app for that' modern take on mindfulness which is entirely in place to make money is of course over-hyped and largely predatory in nature. This shouldn't take away from the fact that mindfulness does help people. Just that if you're paying for it, you are quite likely doing it wrong.
qwerty456127 8y ago
It can be considered "over-hyped" in a way but I believe it is not hyped sufficiently as long as the majority of people still haven't mastered it. Lack of mindfulness skill and habit is pretty much like the "gluteal amnesia" syndrome: there is a natural thing your butt muscles should be doing all the way you go but in just so many people it doesn't, same thing with your mind and mindfulness. And you don't necessarily need an instructor for this: it's a valid way to get started but for many people (not for everybody, of course) some books and free YouTube videos can be enough as well.
keeptrying 8y ago
The article seems to be struggling to differentiate between mindfulness, meditation and negative aspects of the same like rumination. As the battle for our attention increases rapidly, its going to be ever more important to truly understand all these tools and make use of them. I think the meaning of mindfulness is mis-understood in a very large part of the population rather than it being over-hyped.

171 points by abhi3 8y ago

Usually, practicing being mindful just brings about more anxiety than if I were to lose myself into doing something that has the capability of swallowing me whole - such as playing video games, running, driving, having long walks.

eof 8y ago
In my experience, mindfulness is like working out; it is temporarily uncomfortable (atleast/especially at first) in exchange for comfort over time. Running is somewhat similar in that at first it is uncomfortable but your body learns to lean into it. That being said, prolonged periods of mindfulness and focus can bring about unparalleled states of bliss, but those are fleeting.
phailhaus 8y ago
> lose myself into doing something that has the capability of swallowing me whole That's what being mindful is all about! It teaches you how to be present in the moment and let those negative anxious thoughts pass by rather than consume you.
- rwnspace 8y ago
  Well, that's just as much something that can be learned through CBT or other means, and it's worth keeping in mind that negative effects are not unheard of [1]. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/aug/25/mental-health-meditation https://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/aug/25/mental-healt...
  - deleted 8y ago
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- ljm 8y ago
  This isn’t meditation or mindfulness, it’s just an aspirational sales pitch for it that says nothing about how fucking hard it is when you’re dealing with non-trivial stuff. Nobody at any level below enlightenment will let go of any particular emotion and let it pass by, just by engaging in this practice. There is no letting go unless your meditation practice has first allowed you to fully express that which is holding you back. Meditation isn’t just getting into the zone.
  - phailhaus 8y ago
    > Nobody at any level below enlightenment will let go of any particular emotion and let it pass by, just by engaging in this practice. Have you tried? It's not easy. It's taken months but my anxiety has noticeably decreased, though there's still a long way to go. Several times I've "let my guard down" and relapsed, thinking that I didn't have to try so hard anymore. I've come to admit that it's going to be a daily thing that I have to watch for, though it does get easier. > There is no letting go unless your meditation practice has first allowed you to fully express that which is holding you back. Yes, that's exactly what you have to do. You can't let something go if you don't know what it is. Maybe you have an inaccurate idea of what mindfulness is?
  - empath75 8y ago
    I’m no zen monk but I do this on a very surface level, detaching myself from my current emotions and trying to observe them going by. I’ve found it useful in controlling anger and anxiety. Does it solve it? No. But I do find it useful and it doesn’t take that much effort or practice to get some value out of it.
- sridca 8y ago
  > let those negative anxious thoughts pass by rather than consume you. Lol, I'd much rather prefer for those negative anxious thoughts to not occur in the first place (and there is a superior method to achieve this), much less having to have to let them pass by or consume me. This is why meditation is not a solution.
  - newfoundglory 8y ago
    Most people will experience anxious/negative feelings throughout their life, and improving how they handle them will be useful on all those occasions. I don’t know how you think you are going to prevent this from happening to you - perhaps you are thinking specifically of an anxiety disorder or other extreme?
    - sridca 8y ago
      I've successfully disarmed myself off most of the normal everyday anxieties by investigating them one by one. What's left will also go away in due time.
  - phailhaus 8y ago
    Trying to suppress your thoughts is not a solution either, that just gives them more weight. When you let them by, you realize that they were not worth the attention in the first place, and they fade away over time. There is no quick fix.
    - sridca 8y ago
      suppression != not-occurring
      - phailhaus 8y ago
        Unfortunately I think you'll find that not everything can be solved, and that you'll always have some anxiety. It would actually be strange if you didn't, everyone has these thoughts every so often. The trick is to not let them take over you, and just move on. I suspect you're doing this without realizing it; you're analyzing your anxieties until you understand them, and then they stop happening over time as you stop giving them so much attention.
- palimpsests 8y ago
  Being present in the moment - is one aspect of mindfulness. That this can facilitate less "holding on" to thoughts and emotional states is a nice side effect. For me and the communities I am a part of - I've noticed something that feels "deeper", here, which is that I've learned to not try to avoid things that feel negative - really, to befriend and even welcome every and all emotional state with curiosity and compassion. In this way, I've felt much less reactive, and much more capable of introspecting on what is going on within myself. This, combined with various other practices, support, and therapy, has been uncovering some really big changes in my life, both internally and externally. This reminds me of a concept that is frequently discussed by a teacher and author I recommend - Tara Brach (she has a great podcast series). She talks about the twin wings of compassion and awareness that are fundamental to many schools of Buddhism. Awareness === mindfulness, mastery of the mind and thought. Without compassion, i.e., opening of the heart - mindfulness doesn't have the same kind of potency for cultivation. It's hard to fly with only one wing. There's been a very large push for mindfulness but less so for unconditional love. Probably because we are a very cognitively-focused society, with many, many powerful disembodying influences. To stay connected to ones heart is a somatic experience. In my own experience and, again, hearing from many others, this is much more challenging than practicing different kinds of mindfulness meditation on a regular basis. Certainly not even remotely close to impossible - it's a natural state of our physiology that's often been deconditioned. There are many tools, techniques, and systems to help us re-access this state. With compassion, unconditional love can be brought to all aspects of yourself, all parts of experience that our egoic states might want to categorize as "bad" (or "good"). And, if we can really give this to ourselves, then we bring it out into the world, to share with as many beings as possible.
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glenndebacker 8y ago
That is because you are too focused on doing it "right". That was something that I also had problems with in the beginning. Anxiety went away from the moment that I've read and accepted that there is no right or bad way to being mindful or meditate. Also not being negative against bad feelings that could arise when practicing and just observe was a big step for me and made it easier to make it go away or make it less powerfull.

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duncan_bayne 8y ago

Is there a name for this cycle? 1. Useful $THING gets mentioned in the news (mindfulness, AI, cryptocurrency, ...) 2. $THING gets hyped into orbit ($THING consultants, $THING apps, $THING books, $THING as a way of life, ...) 3. We start seeing articles like "$THING has been over-hyped" or "$THING results not replicated". 4. $THING drops out of the limelight, sometimes into a worse position than it started in because of the 'negative' press. 5. A new $THING emerges ... Edited: not trying to be snarky here (see below for the actual term I was looking for). It's just that this is a pattern I've seen repeated so many times, in tech. and elsewhere.

jdelaney 8y ago
There's something similar to what you describe called the Hype Cycle - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hype_cycle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hype_cycle
- duncan_bayne 8y ago
  Ah, thanks - that's what I meant.
- alex_young 8y ago
  Alternatively: Six phases of a big project - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_phases_of_a_big_project https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_phases_of_a_big_project
bamboozled 8y ago
It feels like this is actually a real social phenomenon made more intense by the Internet and social media.
MaybiusStrip 8y ago
Mindfulness and meditation have been popular for thousands of years...
- gowld 8y ago
  The Silicon Valley /"Business School" mindfulness fad is much more recent, past decade or so.

qntty 8y ago

Alternatively: meditation turns out to be harder than popularizers tend to let on

agumonkey 8y ago
It's also probably impossible to assess whether someone is or not meditating.
- eeZah7Ux 8y ago
  A lot of research has shown permanent changes in neural activation patterns in long-time, committed meditators.
- loup-vaillant 8y ago
  You can still ask people different things and see how it turns out. If you can't assess whether they were meditating or not, just record whether you asked them to.
- gowld 8y ago
  It's a bit easier to assess whether you yourself are getting into the meditative state when you try. (Still, that's made difficulty by not knowing what "experts" mean when they describe a meditative state.)
- the-pigeon 8y ago
  I thought there was particular brain wave patterns associated with it. Which if so you could certainly measure them.
  - agumonkey 8y ago
    good point, i forgot about that
  - proverbialbunny 8y ago
    There was a study where they wrote some software with a bar on it representing brain activity in the area of the brain that decreases when meditating. They then told people to try to get the bar to go down. This worked, and showed that meditation can one day be made easy, and is a valuable tool that can be studied in a clear way.

jacquesm 8y ago

You don't say. I've seen companies that really couldn't afford it get sucked in to this nonsense at great expense and with very little to show for it. But some 'mindfulness consultant' made off with the loot. Besides the fact that you can't really force employees into stuff that they wouldn't do out of their own volition (imagine a company that suddenly forced all the employees to visit Scientology sessions regularly or something that effect). These hype cycles only serve the people that peddle the hype. Of course people are totally free to do what they want in their own time and if they feel like spending that on 'mindfulness' (which conveniently is so vague it could mean just about anything) then that's fine. Back in the 80's everybody seemed to have their personal Guru, now we have this. 20 years from now we'll probably have something else that takes its place.

hedvig 8y ago
Shame the only point of reference is as paid service rather than meditation you do yourself. Most people could do well to do anything that peels them away from the media stream (including hackernews) or libertarian news sites, etc.
- itronitron 8y ago
  yeah, if you are paying for meditation then you are doing it wrong
rubicon33 8y ago
The nutrition space is filled with this shit too. I've had so many friends go "Gluten Free" with nothing at all to show for it, besides vague claims of feeling better. There's a 65 year old guy that just finished his 30,000th big mac [1] and meanwhile people are trying to tell me that the piece of toast I had for breakfast is causing systemic inflammation and killing me. SMH. [1] http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/wisconsin-man-eats-30-000th-big-mac-hamburger-article-1.3975373 http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/wisconsin-man-eats-...
- GuiA 8y ago
  Big Macs aren’t particularly unhealthy. Bread, lettuce, tomato, “cheese”, beef... the sauce is the worst offender but there isn’t much of it. Fries and sodas are much worse for you.

gowld 8y ago

I never understood the difference or relationship between trace-like "meditation" and "mindfulness" (which I thought is something like introspecting into your mental state to recognize and defuse your emotions, like the "HALT: Hunger, Anger, Loneliness, and Tiredness" self-check)

justinpombrio 8y ago
There are many kinds of meditation. Three that I know of: (i) focusing on the sensations of your breath, either in your nostrils or your abdomen, while maintaining peripheral awareness; (ii) practicing feeling "loving kindness" towards people; (iii) visualizing complex shapes. I'm not sure what you mean by "trace-like", but I suspect that it would describe some forms of meditation but not others. I believe that "mindfulness" is also used in more than one way, and as a result may or may not refer to a kind of meditation. I have a book "The Mind Illuminated", which discusses meditation (i) in great detail, and suggests a self-check as you begin meditating, though with different steps than HALT. Disclaimer: I know very little about meditation, and some of this might be wrong. But it's certainly complicated, and words refer to many different things.
sudosteph 8y ago
Transcendental meditation is probably the trance like one you have in mind, and that's very different from the far more established Buddhist practice of "mindfulness" which is traditionally practiced via meditation. Transcendental meditation is just repeating a nonsense phrase over and over. Both practices typically have you sit still for 15 minutes, but that's where the similarities end. Mindfulness practice encompasses cultivating awareness of internal states, so the HALT thing can be seen as a limited form of that. The meditation aspect is typically used more to practice non-reactivity, body awareness, and to understand the temporary nature of things. For example, in one practice you sit still and make a mental note of all the sounds you hear. You hear them start and end, consider the qualities of the sound (loud, rhythmic, high pitch, etc) and you notice your reaction to them (do you get startled when the ice maker goes off? Are the sounds of birds calming?). You allow yourself to welcome new sounds into your perception, and try not to linger or dwell on old ones when they're gone. Obviously it's not directly practical to most things, but the idea is that you learn to feel alright with the temporary nature of things, pleasant or unpleasant, and can then apply that to your own emotions or other external situations.

Zak 8y ago

I'd compare it to a physical workout: it's not necessarily a good treatment for a specific disease or injury and may even be harmful to a person who isn't well. Being in shape, however makes a person generally more resilient to disease and injury.

Insanity 8y ago

When I see mindfulness mentioned, I am often reminded of my eastern philosophy classes. Mindfulness is not a 'moment of the day', it's a way of living your life. The idea was that in the west, we would take these ideas and try to fit them into a western world which is a world where time == money. So you get these things like 'mindfulness classes' where, for one hour, you practice being in a state of mindfulness whilst the rest of the week you go through your life as usual. I guess that when we took the idea of mindfulness and put it in a package that fit our society, it might have gotten hyped and more distant from its essence. This just to state that mindfulness might still be worth your time - just not the 'prepackaged' version. * Small disclaimer: I do not practice it, I'm just being a parrot of some philosophy classes that I thought were interesting.

yjftsjthsd-h 8y ago
In fairness, "do this one thing in a tiny fragment of your time and reap benefits continually" works fine for quite a lot of things around well-being, mostly excercise.
criddell 8y ago
Kurt Vonnegut made me more mindful before I even knew that was a word. In A Man Without a Country he relays some advice given to him by his uncle: > I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is. Since reading that ten years ago I've done that almost daily. Often I'm only saying it to my dog but it certainly has made me appreciate the small moments that can be wonderful.

sfRattan 8y ago

No kidding. Dealt with pitches for 'mindfulness' as a practicing stoic for years. "Dude, you should check out mindfulness. You'd really be into it." Nope. As best I could ever tell, mindfulness was a pop-psych pastiche of various bits of Buddhism, Daoism, and Stoicism designed to sell self-help books and consulting hours. I can't speak for Buddhism and I've heard that the Daodejing appears cryptic now because the body of contemporary Chinese literature it frequently alludes to has been largely lost to history. But the surviving late stoic works are surprisingly accessible, even in stilted translations, making it much easier to see through attempts to repackage old ideas and make a quick buck.

mattmanser 8y ago
They're pretty clear in the article that it does work. But it's been over-hyped.
emmanuel_1234 8y ago
Hoping to peak your interest, Stoicisim and Buddhism are a lot similar than they seem. The way I see it, Buddhism talks a lot about the idea of "mind workout" (meditation) to be able to draw conclusion (insights), whereas Stoicism uses only discourse and logic. The conclusions are roughly the same though, for example the emphasis on equanimity, happiness and virtues in both philosophy. In practice, and to draw a shitty analogy: using logic, you know you shouldn't eat that cupcake because it's 800kcal. You can also curb your sugar addiction so you don't feel so hungry for cupcakes. That being said I agree with you: "mindfulness" in isolation is just a buzzword, which is what this article is trying to say.
- sfRattan 8y ago
  I've looked into Buddhism generally and come to the conclusion that, while it provides about as useful a framework for living well as Stoicism, it's a more complete religious system than I'm interested in. I don't want to treat Buddhism like a buffet and then call myself a Buddhist. Stoic physics, for a contrasting example, are taken literally by no one and can be safely left out of the daily practice of Stoicism (though pneuma and logos are often useful as metaphors).

thepumpkin1979 8y ago

I can tell it’s a billion dollar business, I launched a Meditation app two months ago, we had good retention and users were loving the app. Then the guy we hired to do the voice over disappeared with no explanation so we couldn’t fulfill our promise of “daily meditation” because the voice was not the same. 15 days later I understood why: We received a Cease and Desist from one of the companies behind the top meditation and mindfulness apps in the AppStore. They certainly don’t want anybody to enter that niche.

rhizome 8y ago
A cease and desist based on what?
- jacquesm 8y ago
  Not being mindful to their god given right to make a profit?
faceyspacey 8y ago
Can you elaborate on the cease and desist? Is there a patent on daily meditations. Sounds hardly "mindful" (without knowing the details).
- thepumpkin1979 8y ago
  The cease and desist included, in addition to some screens they said we copied from their design, part of the scripts which I wasn't aware they copyrighted. We didn't copy anything, the text from the meditation we took it from Shunryu Suzuki's book.
  - budadre75 8y ago
    how do they even copyright other's work as their own?
  - namlem 8y ago
    You can't have a copyright for text that someone else wrote unless they sell it to you.

fourthark 8y ago

"Or it may not have. We don't really know anything." I find these articles very frustrating. "Maybe it's good, sounds like of good, right? But studies are inconclusive!" So what are you saying? And why so many stock photos?

matte_black 8y ago

Mindfulness brings no advantage except the realization that we are not our mind, that we exist as a being beyond it, that our thoughts are mostly response to stimulus. If you ignore stimulus, there are no thoughts. If you observe the mind intently, it inevitably struggles to do much thinking about anything. What is profound about this conclusion? Nothing. It does not lead to better memories. It does not lead to more satisfaction. It does not bring more joy. It does not make you more productive. Does it help you focus better? Maybe. But practicing to actually focus is much more efficient.

jm__87 8y ago
There is a difference between knowing something objectively and experiencing it subjectively. The really hardcore meditators do it not just so they can recount the experience of emptiness to someone but so they can actually feel it and learn from the experience itself firsthand. It's like asking someone who did psychedelics to explain it to you. They'll always tell you the experience is not something you can understand with words alone.

chaseha 8y ago

The comments here so far seem to be focusing on the click-baity title... the article is actually a good review of mindfulness research and next steps in the field

dimal 8y ago
90% of it was touting the benefits. I kept reading to see if it would get to the part where it’s all bunk, but it never did.

mmajcher 8y ago

Here's a talk on the subject from famous buddhist monk and teacher Ajahn Brahm. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGjXEM1HZ54&t=1s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGjXEM1HZ54&t=1s TLDR There are other things necessary for mindfulness/meditation to really take off. Things like ethics, right view and other parts of Eightfold Path (buddhist practice). Those give a mind basic clarity and joy necessary for successful practice.

ecwilson 8y ago

Well, mindfulness certainly has been overhyped. Apps and gurus have pushed it as a cure-all and people have eaten it up because our society is broken and people are over stressed. Mindfulness is simply an introductory technique meant to be expanded upon. Personally, I've still found it very useful. When I'm meditating frequently, I'm less reactive -- it's like there's this new sense of "self" that is observing and controlling my brain, whereas before, or when my meditation habit lapses, my brain is just doing it's thing in a more reactive way. This has been incredibly useful both personally and professionally.

kaycebasques 8y ago
My go-to is to spend 5 minutes explicitly relaxing my body. It increases my self-awareness and ability to focus while reducing stress.
jonny_eh 8y ago
I don't think our society is broken, at least not more-so compared to any other generation.
- cal5k 8y ago
  Ironically the "society is broken" narrative, aside from being unsupported by the evidence, is often used to sell mindfulness products & services.
  - FundThrowaway 8y ago
    I'd argue that the broken society narrative is a subjective opinion and not objectively quantfiable. One man's broken society is another man's utopia, it's all dependent on your personal beliefs.
    - collyw 8y ago
      Its probably as dependent on your position in such a society.
  - 8y ago

Mikeb85 8y ago

Mindfulness isn't overhyped, but it also doesn't work if you're not committed. Mindfulness seminars or apps aren't going to change you, they might be a nice introduction, but meditation is a practice that you need to make part of your life to truly get results.

anoncoward1234 8y ago

Mindfulness isn't over-hyped. Mindfulness takes effort. There's crazy videos of buddhist monks walking on their thumbs. People can raise their body temperature several degrees at will (and it's how a lot of open ocean swimmers survive, say, crossing the english channel). But it takes practice, every day, for years and you can't fake it - you're body knows you're cheating and can't be bribed. Given that - how do you do a statistical analysis across the population of mindfulness meditation vs. pill popping? Pills always work, often with horrible debilitating side effects (yay Opioids!). Meanwhile the monk I met who learned to walk again after being confined to a wheelchair (gymnastics injury) had to sit under a tree for several years doing muscle exercises and willing the pain away. So of course science can't rationalize it. How do you measure the strength of will of people? It's not so easy to put these sorts of things into a study. So I guess we'll keep eating the poison pill. Shrug.

yjftsjthsd-h 8y ago
> Pills always work We are clearly on different things.
wilsonnb 8y ago
People heal from injuries using physical therapy on a regular basis. I also don't know what walking on ones thumbs has to do with mindfullness. You don't need to do a statistical analysis. We have other tools that can be used like double blind trials comparing meditation and medication. Anyways, I think you should be very careful about placing much stock in anything that can't be studied in a scientific way. Such a thing would by definition have no measurable effect on the world or be unchangeable.

ahartmetz 8y ago

This seems to be a phenomenon similar to "agile washing". It actually works if you internalize it, turn it over in your mind and make it your own. It doesn't work if you just hire a trainer and otherwise treat it as a necessary evil. Based on the opinion of a friend who reports good results from reading a book about mindfulness and practicing it. There are a bunch of similar comments here, this is just a slightly different angle on it.

spicymaki 8y ago

Yes, extracting the mindfulness techniques out of vipassana practice and then trying to use it to cure PTSD, anxiety, and poor work performance is bound to fail. Being mindful of your neurotic behavior is useful, but it does not help unless you act and change the circumstances that is causing the problem.

stopnamingnuts 8y ago
Can letting go be the change that qualifies under this definition? For most of my users the problem making them (and me) miserable is not the absence of the minor, nice-to-have feature which they have turned into a major defect in their mind. It's the neurosis itself. The change they need to make is to lighten up rather than dancing in the entryway of my cube on tiptoes like they have to tinkle until I break down and work on their pet priority. (edit for clarity)
dimal 8y ago
The article gives examples of how it helps with PTSD. It doesn’t “fail”. It doesn’t totally cure it, it that’s a high bar for any psychological intervention.
glenndebacker 8y ago
I have PTSD and practice mindfulness/buddhism and while it doesn't cure it, it certainly does help a lot. You can only act and change the circumstances when you have some new insights and there is where mindfulness/buddhism helps me. It is certainly not the case of I'm meditating and miraculously all my problems go away... Personally I don't think that mindfulness/medition/... is overhyped but the tools/apps/courses are. There is really no need to spends hunderds of euro's to being mindfull or learn the practices.

silentsea90 8y ago

$$$ via attention seeking articles : First X gets hyped thanks to tons of articles from publications like this, then there are counter articles calling X overhyped. Then there are articles calling for balance/nuance in X. X = AI, mindfulness, blockchain, health tracking apps, self driving cars, yoga... News businesses will create a hype curve for every phenomenon.

wepple 8y ago
I realized this the other day in the shower: media outlets basically argue with themselves to create their own hype cycles. First it’s a fringe crazy idea, then it’s the new hotness, then it should be a part of your daily life, then someone decides they’re edgy and it’s not for them, then it’s basically cancer, then a story of how it grew too fast and has collapsed. And the funny thing is, it’s almost a negative signal of what’s valuable. By the time The Guardian or CNN is talking about bitcoin, you have no chance of making a dime.

jknoepfler 8y ago

As someone who meditates daily, I would be surprised if meditation had substantial therapeutic benefit for anything beyond some behavioral disorders. Meditation for me is about truth seeking. I emerge from zazen feeling as though I understand myself and the world around me more honestly. It has long term implications for how I think and behave, certainly, but probably not in any medically interesting sense. I don't expect studying physics or building a deck to change my health outcomes measurably. Meditating isn't different in kind. The value that I gain from "just sitting" is not something I can articulate very well in words. I would certainly encourage others to meditate daily, but meditation won't mend broken bones or unclog arteries or replace neurotransmitters the body can't produce enough of naturally. It's just sitting, after all.

dwaltrip 8y ago
> feeling as though I understand myself and the world around me more honestly That sounds like it could be rather therapeutic for many folks. Small changes in perspectives can make a big difference, I think.

macawfish 8y ago

Say the same people responsible for the overhyping headlines. Obnoxious! Meanwhile at University of Wisconsin, Madison: Study reveals gene expression changes with meditation https://news.wisc.edu/study-reveals-gene-expression-changes-with-meditation/ https://news.wisc.edu/study-reveals-gene-expression-changes-...

danschumann 8y ago

Wim Hof is where it's at though. Cold exposure and breathing

tim333 8y ago

The article talks a lot about PTSD but mindfulness meditation was not designed for that so it's maybe not surprising it doesn't fix it. Funnily enough they recently seem to have found a fix with MDMA https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/mdma-ecstasy-mdma-post-traumatic-stress-disorder-veterans-a8332561.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/mdma-ecstasy-mdma-... Mindfulness, according to Wikipedia: >In Buddhist teachings, mindfulness is utilized to develop self-knowledge and wisdom that gradually lead to what is described as enlightenment (by the way there were recent discussions of meditation, more of the get thing done variety, by the Sapiens guy here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13905249 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13905249 and a link to Seinfeld on Meditation https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13909346 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13909346 which I'm having a look at)

ghthor 8y ago
Id consider the induced state when I've tried MDMA to be very similar to mindfulness. It feels like I have better communication with my body, and it's easier to listen to it.

suneilp 8y ago

There is too much analysis of mindfulness and meditation. So you'll end up with analyzing yourself too much while looking for that glorious state of detaching your self from your self to get into that witness mode and apply all the philosophies, ideals, influences crammed into your head to each thought you have. So my suggestion is while meditating, drop all that stuff, sit alone at home/indoor, or quiet outdoor area, and just be meditative while listening to your breath instead of "meditating", and trust you understand basic human decency. Being yogic-like, or whatever, doesn't mean you have to be what people commonly think that means. Just be you. That's how I've always viewed yoga/tantra as at it's core. There is more to yoga and tantra than that but there is no need to go there unless you're interested. For most people, they just want to de-stress and heal their mind and body and be themselves. The regular practice of meditation like this extends into regular activities and has improved my productivity, tempered my reactivity to shit, etc.

dvcrn 8y ago

If it wasn’t this overhyped, and if not everyone and their dog told me to try it, it would have never crossed my mind. If it works or not, I don’t know but I enjoy my moment of silence a lot. I also love that it gives me more and more frequently moments where I realize where and when I actually am instead of moving on autopilot through my day. As cliche as it sounds, I for example stopped listening to music on the train and just listen to my surroundings and “be there”. My social media and phone addiction almost completely disappeared and I’m just in general a nicer person. Again, what of that is actually attributed to meditation and mindfulness, I don’t know but it’s been great.

moreorless 8y ago

Ask 20 "experts" on what it is and you get 20 different answers. :P

maroonblazer 8y ago

The original article appears here with the much less click-baity headline: "Peering into the meditating mind" https://www.knowablemagazine.org/article/mind/2018/peering-meditating-mind https://www.knowablemagazine.org/article/mind/2018/peering-m...

throwaway84742 8y ago

I think the entire benefit of this (assuming there is any) is in setting aside a few minutes per day to fully relax. I’m also pretty sure a power nap would be better, but it’s generally less socially acceptable, especially in a work environment.

hikarudo 8y ago

There's an article [1] entitled "Meditation en masse - how colonialism sparked the global Vipassana movement". When the British conquered the Buddhist kingdom of Burma, Buddhism lost the protection it had from the king. The laity then organized in order to defend their Buddhist institutions, and people began to study the dhamma like never before. This gave rise to talented monks who preached to the laity. Then Ledi Sayadaw, a Burmese monk, began preaching that meditation was not something that only monks who dedicated their lives to it could do, but was available to anyone. This led to a lineage of lay teachers of meditation, one of whom was Goenka, the founder of the Vipassana meditation movement. In short, the modern Vipassana movement has its origins in the popularization of meditation which was a result of British colonialism in Burma. [1] https://tricycle.org/magazine/meditation-en-masse/ https://tricycle.org/magazine/meditation-en-masse/

curlcntr 8y ago
I have the book the author of that article wrote (The Birth of Insight: Meditation, Modern Buddhism, and the Burmese Monk Ledi Sayadaw). Its an interesting book. Historical perspective on ideas is fascinating.

curlcntr 8y ago

Mindfulness style meditation without any goals or objectives, no clock or apps. No expectations. Just the beauty of it. For me, that has been most consistent with the nature of the practice itself.

shekharshan 8y ago

Buddha gave the path of end of suffering as eight noble qualities: "right view", "right intention", "right speech", "right action", "right effort", "right livelihood", "right mindfulness", and "right concentration". Notice "right mindfulness" is different than "right concentration" and it is just 1/8th of the path. When your hypothesis is 1/8th of the complete picture, of course your studies will prove it does not work.

wizardofmysore 8y ago

I have been practicing mindfulness meditation for the past five years and it has shown positive benefits for mental health in terms of being less reactive and calm. My immunity has also increased, I used to have a lot of allergies and used to get throat infection regularly but I don't now. One observation is that mindfulness meditation in the night reduced sleep quality. Second is that mindfulness meditation is another exercise. It is aimed at increasing focus, since what you are doing is trying to focus. It isn't a cure for every mental ailment.

thisisit 8y ago

I am not surprised because Mindfulness is not a cure-all. I recently read Goleman's Emotional Intelligence. One of the key takeaways for me was the nature of mindfulness/meditation. To paraphase Goleman Mindfulness/meditation works by alleviating your mood. So, if there is lot of anger or you tend to get worried a lot, meditation works. But, if you tend to be more dispirited most of the time then meditation actually doesn't work for you. A better solution is to try and get into an upbeat mood. Exercise, exciting adventure sports etc might be a better option.

vermaden 8y ago

A lot of things today are overhyped.

c12 8y ago

The self-help 'there is a book and a subscription and an app for that' modern take on mindfulness which is entirely in place to make money is of course over-hyped and largely predatory in nature. This shouldn't take away from the fact that mindfulness does help people. Just that if you're paying for it, you are quite likely doing it wrong.

qwerty456127 8y ago

It can be considered "over-hyped" in a way but I believe it is not hyped sufficiently as long as the majority of people still haven't mastered it. Lack of mindfulness skill and habit is pretty much like the "gluteal amnesia" syndrome: there is a natural thing your butt muscles should be doing all the way you go but in just so many people it doesn't, same thing with your mind and mindfulness. And you don't necessarily need an instructor for this: it's a valid way to get started but for many people (not for everybody, of course) some books and free YouTube videos can be enough as well.

keeptrying 8y ago

The article seems to be struggling to differentiate between mindfulness, meditation and negative aspects of the same like rumination. As the battle for our attention increases rapidly, its going to be ever more important to truly understand all these tools and make use of them. I think the meaning of mindfulness is mis-understood in a very large part of the population rather than it being over-hyped.