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Honestly I gotta agree with you here, bud. When I was growing up in Canada I had to keep my dreams a secret. If you had any grand goals people thought you were

Honestly I gotta agree with you here, bud. When I was growing up in Canada I had to keep my dreams a secret. If you had any grand goals people thought you were an egomaniacal weirdo. It wasn't until I seriously dated someone here in the US that I realized the difference: as part of the "delving into each others' inner lives" phase of the early relationship, I sheepishly admitted I had dreams of doing some pretty big things. I was greeted with an eye-roll and her saying "everyone wants to do something like that". Here in the USA it's normal for everyone to have big dreams, and weird if they don't. I think I like it.

vhodges 9y ago
I agree there's more ambition/drive in the US (Just observed, never having worked there), but there's lots here too. People do start companies. I think the bay area tends to do a lot more experimentation darwinian style, but I suspect it's because they can (more seed money/angels, etc)
- antoniuschan99 9y ago
  It's the East Coast vs West Coast mentality. West coast has always been about experiment wheareas east coast is more conservative. I've always wondered if it was because the Europeans took hold of the East coast first and it was only the more brave who would take on the Westword journey. Perhaps that mentality is still engrained in the culture? I think Dragons Den vs Shark Tank is a clear example of how much stronger the US is (population is 10x too though).
  - maxerickson 9y ago
    Sailing across an ocean to who knows what is pretty brave. I expect the enormous wealth captured by computers and software gives people the leeway to experiment.
  - rock_hard 9y ago
    California and Japan are the farthest people and ideas can travel...those who survive the journey will have been refined by it! When those people meet those ideas at the end of said journey is when then magic happens
  - privacypoller 9y ago
    My dad has a good saying: "what takes three hundred years to accomplish in western Europe takes 3 generations on the east coast, takes 30 years on the west coast". Not surprisingly they moved out west soon after school and I've been forever poisoned to the east!
    - neuromantik8086 9y ago
      Yeah, that's why Germany has maglevs and high speed rail and California can barely get it's own HSR off the ground. That's a truly awful saying that's emblematic of the stupid prejudices brought about by American exceptionalism and the even more obnoxious (to me) West Coast exceptionalism.
      - WiseWeasel 9y ago
        As much as I nodded along with your exasperation at the parent poster's (father's) demonstration of bias, you can't compare long-distance public transportation infrastructure in places with the population densities and growth rates of Germany and California, two extremes in that sense. California has 1/5 more area, with half the population, and that population has almost doubled over the last 35 years, versus a few % growth in Germany.
        coldtea 9y ago
        >you can't compare long-distance public transportation infrastructure in places with the population densities and growth rates of Germany and California You very much can. Parent didn't ask Californians to build infrastructure in Yosemite or the Death Valley. Heck, not even in Bakersfield. How's that L.A, San Diego, and San Francisco public transportation infrastructure? Places that, if anything, have more population density than the most populus German cities?
        WiseWeasel 9y ago
        The US mostly relies on air travel, and it's not too inconvenient if you can avoid major hubs like SFO and LAX. The population of those metropolitan areas isn't the problem; it's the distance, as well as the lower demand for travel between them. California is also more seismically active. You can build a passenger HSR system in California, but the cost/benefit is going to be worse than somewhere like Germany.
  - neuromantik8086 9y ago
    I hear this explanation floated around a lot, but I have extreme doubts that it has any bearing in reality. I live in NYC, and it's not that we're adverse to experimentation. Far from it; we mix and match cultures obsessively until the most bizarre "only in New York" moments come about. Instead, New Yorkers are more likely to call bullshit on an idea when it isn't good or at a minimum challenge it to be better. You don't have nearly the same survival of the fittest attitude in the Bay Area from my impressions, and as a result tons of crackpot ideas end up funded. Admittedly, crackpot ideas in NYC also get funded (Juicero, oy) so I'm not sure if the difference can totally be attributed to New York's adversarial nature. Mostly what it boils down to here I suspect is that start-ups just aren't as visible because all of the software devs and engineers realized that they could go work in finance rather than a "tech company" and make millions of dollars more. In this sense, lots of New York's innovative spirit gets channeled into problems relating to designing custom ASICs for HFT and trying to outwit the market. As another point, who claim that the East Coast is averse to experimentation have a marked tendency to ignore counterfactual examples like BBN and Bell Labs. Even Xerox (in Rochester) and Kodak were pretty deep into R&D before they fucked themselves.
    - api 9y ago
      I have lived on both coasts and the biggest difference I have noticed is the strength of the elite university caste system in the East. It felt like if you didn't go to a top ten school you had a glass ceiling. It exists out West too but in my experience so far is less prevalent and is given less weight. People out East often start a presentation, pitch, or interview with where they went to school. Out West I have done a dozen VC meetings and have only been asked once or twice and I didn't get the impression it was a major data point for them. Dominant mentalities are: East: who are you? What is your background? West: what can you do?
      - neuromantik8086 9y ago
        I've never lived outside of the East Coast / mid-West, but what you're saying sounds feasible. That said, I'd guess that the "who are you? What is your background?" question is more of a Boston thing than a New York thing, since New York doesn't have the Puritan / Boston Brahman caste system. I've known of a number of people who went to state schools or random unknown schools in New Jersey who've done reasonably well here.
  - tekknik 9y ago
    > West coast has always been about experiment wheareas east coast is more conservative. This is just flat out wrong and a bit egotistical. Now the west coast thinks it’s the “experimenters” rolls eyes
    - antoniuschan99 9y ago
      True that's an over generalization! I don't think it's egotistical though.
wolco 9y ago
As a Canadian thank you for your story. I felt somewhat the same way but thought it was just me.
rayiner 9y ago
> Here in the USA it's normal for everyone to have big dreams, and weird if they don't. I think I like it It makes Americans easily manipulated and exploited.
- sverige 9y ago
  I agree with this observation. There are countless examples of companies making big money by taking advantage of that trait.
- intended 9y ago
  That’s unfair - any stable trait of any community will be used by people to manipulate and exploit them.
  - astrodust 9y ago
    Not every trait is equally exploitable.
rock_hard 9y ago
As a German thank you...I feel just the same way about it! To infinity and beyond guys
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
xordon 9y ago
As a Canadian who has lived in the US for 1 year (in SF) I have a totally different take away. I noticed that people here are very hard working, almost as they are desperate for success, like if they fail or lost their job they would just die, poor and homeless and healthcare-less. I found that people in Canada were much more focused on happiness and were more willing to make sacrifices to improve their quality of live, though in Vancouver the housing crisis was a gut check for anyone who's goals include owning a home, or starting a family. There is money to be made here in the valley, especially in tech, but it is not where I intend to be permanently. I want to retire one day, and I probably can't do that here. I definitely couldn't do that in Vancouver with a local salary.
- itronitron 9y ago
  >> like if they fail or lost their job they would just die, poor and homeless and healthcare-less Because they could be very easily if they don't have a family safety net. I think that ultimately puts a damper on peoples' productive and creative ability as they tend to then focus more on keeping their job rather than being the most productive they can be for their employer.
  - otempomores 9y ago
    Anything to tie those revolutionary ballons down.. The earlier the better.. which is why the gov created student loans and long-term shot its own industries innovation ability in the foot.. all out of fear of 68 and a cultural revolution..
  - robbrit 9y ago
    > I think that ultimately puts a damper on peoples' productive and creative ability as they tend to then focus more on keeping their job rather than being the most productive they can be for their employer. You could also look at it the other way. The lack of a safety net is like burning the bridges: it encourages you to be more productive and creative precisely because if you're not, then you've got nothing to fall back on.
    - deleted 9y ago
astrodust 9y ago
That's part of the "tall poppy" culture endemic to Canada and other British colonies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tall_poppy_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tall_poppy_syndrome You stand out, you become a target.

vhodges 9y ago

I agree there's more ambition/drive in the US (Just observed, never having worked there), but there's lots here too. People do start companies. I think the bay area tends to do a lot more experimentation darwinian style, but I suspect it's because they can (more seed money/angels, etc)

antoniuschan99 9y ago
It's the East Coast vs West Coast mentality. West coast has always been about experiment wheareas east coast is more conservative. I've always wondered if it was because the Europeans took hold of the East coast first and it was only the more brave who would take on the Westword journey. Perhaps that mentality is still engrained in the culture? I think Dragons Den vs Shark Tank is a clear example of how much stronger the US is (population is 10x too though).
- maxerickson 9y ago
  Sailing across an ocean to who knows what is pretty brave. I expect the enormous wealth captured by computers and software gives people the leeway to experiment.
- rock_hard 9y ago
  California and Japan are the farthest people and ideas can travel...those who survive the journey will have been refined by it! When those people meet those ideas at the end of said journey is when then magic happens
- privacypoller 9y ago
  My dad has a good saying: "what takes three hundred years to accomplish in western Europe takes 3 generations on the east coast, takes 30 years on the west coast". Not surprisingly they moved out west soon after school and I've been forever poisoned to the east!
  - neuromantik8086 9y ago
    Yeah, that's why Germany has maglevs and high speed rail and California can barely get it's own HSR off the ground. That's a truly awful saying that's emblematic of the stupid prejudices brought about by American exceptionalism and the even more obnoxious (to me) West Coast exceptionalism.
    - WiseWeasel 9y ago
      As much as I nodded along with your exasperation at the parent poster's (father's) demonstration of bias, you can't compare long-distance public transportation infrastructure in places with the population densities and growth rates of Germany and California, two extremes in that sense. California has 1/5 more area, with half the population, and that population has almost doubled over the last 35 years, versus a few % growth in Germany.
      - coldtea 9y ago
        >you can't compare long-distance public transportation infrastructure in places with the population densities and growth rates of Germany and California You very much can. Parent didn't ask Californians to build infrastructure in Yosemite or the Death Valley. Heck, not even in Bakersfield. How's that L.A, San Diego, and San Francisco public transportation infrastructure? Places that, if anything, have more population density than the most populus German cities?
        WiseWeasel 9y ago
        The US mostly relies on air travel, and it's not too inconvenient if you can avoid major hubs like SFO and LAX. The population of those metropolitan areas isn't the problem; it's the distance, as well as the lower demand for travel between them. California is also more seismically active. You can build a passenger HSR system in California, but the cost/benefit is going to be worse than somewhere like Germany.
- neuromantik8086 9y ago
  I hear this explanation floated around a lot, but I have extreme doubts that it has any bearing in reality. I live in NYC, and it's not that we're adverse to experimentation. Far from it; we mix and match cultures obsessively until the most bizarre "only in New York" moments come about. Instead, New Yorkers are more likely to call bullshit on an idea when it isn't good or at a minimum challenge it to be better. You don't have nearly the same survival of the fittest attitude in the Bay Area from my impressions, and as a result tons of crackpot ideas end up funded. Admittedly, crackpot ideas in NYC also get funded (Juicero, oy) so I'm not sure if the difference can totally be attributed to New York's adversarial nature. Mostly what it boils down to here I suspect is that start-ups just aren't as visible because all of the software devs and engineers realized that they could go work in finance rather than a "tech company" and make millions of dollars more. In this sense, lots of New York's innovative spirit gets channeled into problems relating to designing custom ASICs for HFT and trying to outwit the market. As another point, who claim that the East Coast is averse to experimentation have a marked tendency to ignore counterfactual examples like BBN and Bell Labs. Even Xerox (in Rochester) and Kodak were pretty deep into R&D before they fucked themselves.
  - api 9y ago
    I have lived on both coasts and the biggest difference I have noticed is the strength of the elite university caste system in the East. It felt like if you didn't go to a top ten school you had a glass ceiling. It exists out West too but in my experience so far is less prevalent and is given less weight. People out East often start a presentation, pitch, or interview with where they went to school. Out West I have done a dozen VC meetings and have only been asked once or twice and I didn't get the impression it was a major data point for them. Dominant mentalities are: East: who are you? What is your background? West: what can you do?
    - neuromantik8086 9y ago
      I've never lived outside of the East Coast / mid-West, but what you're saying sounds feasible. That said, I'd guess that the "who are you? What is your background?" question is more of a Boston thing than a New York thing, since New York doesn't have the Puritan / Boston Brahman caste system. I've known of a number of people who went to state schools or random unknown schools in New Jersey who've done reasonably well here.
- tekknik 9y ago
  > West coast has always been about experiment wheareas east coast is more conservative. This is just flat out wrong and a bit egotistical. Now the west coast thinks it’s the “experimenters” rolls eyes
  - antoniuschan99 9y ago
    True that's an over generalization! I don't think it's egotistical though.

wolco 9y ago

As a Canadian thank you for your story. I felt somewhat the same way but thought it was just me.

rayiner 9y ago

> Here in the USA it's normal for everyone to have big dreams, and weird if they don't. I think I like it It makes Americans easily manipulated and exploited.

sverige 9y ago
I agree with this observation. There are countless examples of companies making big money by taking advantage of that trait.
intended 9y ago
That’s unfair - any stable trait of any community will be used by people to manipulate and exploit them.
- astrodust 9y ago
  Not every trait is equally exploitable.

rock_hard 9y ago

As a German thank you...I feel just the same way about it! To infinity and beyond guys

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

xordon 9y ago

As a Canadian who has lived in the US for 1 year (in SF) I have a totally different take away. I noticed that people here are very hard working, almost as they are desperate for success, like if they fail or lost their job they would just die, poor and homeless and healthcare-less. I found that people in Canada were much more focused on happiness and were more willing to make sacrifices to improve their quality of live, though in Vancouver the housing crisis was a gut check for anyone who's goals include owning a home, or starting a family. There is money to be made here in the valley, especially in tech, but it is not where I intend to be permanently. I want to retire one day, and I probably can't do that here. I definitely couldn't do that in Vancouver with a local salary.

itronitron 9y ago
>> like if they fail or lost their job they would just die, poor and homeless and healthcare-less Because they could be very easily if they don't have a family safety net. I think that ultimately puts a damper on peoples' productive and creative ability as they tend to then focus more on keeping their job rather than being the most productive they can be for their employer.
- otempomores 9y ago
  Anything to tie those revolutionary ballons down.. The earlier the better.. which is why the gov created student loans and long-term shot its own industries innovation ability in the foot.. all out of fear of 68 and a cultural revolution..
- robbrit 9y ago
  > I think that ultimately puts a damper on peoples' productive and creative ability as they tend to then focus more on keeping their job rather than being the most productive they can be for their employer. You could also look at it the other way. The lack of a safety net is like burning the bridges: it encourages you to be more productive and creative precisely because if you're not, then you've got nothing to fall back on.
  - deleted 9y ago

astrodust 9y ago

That's part of the "tall poppy" culture endemic to Canada and other British colonies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tall_poppy_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tall_poppy_syndrome You stand out, you become a target.