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Stripe cofounder here. This is an issue that I know a lot of HN readers care about and I'd encourage anyone interested to get involved. (Feel free to reach out

by pc 8y ago

Stripe cofounder here. This is an issue that I know a lot of HN readers care about and I'd encourage anyone interested to get involved. (Feel free to reach out to CA YIMBY, your local representatives, or any of the other organizations doing good work in the field.) Bad housing policy is one of the biggest impediments to overall economic growth[1] and to individual economic opportunity[2][3] in the US. Our current restrictive policies disproportionately hurt poorer, younger, and (frequently) non-white[4] people. I really hope we can change them. [1] https://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/chang-tai.hsieh/research/growth.pdf https://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/chang-tai.hsieh/research/gr... [2] https://www.urban.org/sites/default/files/publication/83656/2000907-strategies-for-increasing-housing-supply-in-high-cost-cities-dc-case-study_1.pdf https://www.urban.org/sites/default/files/publication/83656/... [3] From the Obama administration: https://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/whitehouse.gov/files/images/Housing_Development_Toolkit%20f.2.pdf https://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/whitehouse.gov/files/images... [4] https://www.amazon.com/Color-Law-Forgotten-Government-Segregated/dp/1631492853 https://www.amazon.com/Color-Law-Forgotten-Government-Segreg...

davidw 8y ago
I can't say thank you enough! California's housing policies have repercusions even way up here in Bend, Oregon: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/back-againbend-oregon-matt-abrams/?published=t https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/back-againbend-oregon-matt-ab... The articles and book you cite are excellent ones, and I'd highly recommend them to anyone interested in this issue. I have a bunch more here, too: https://bendyimby.com/2017/06/12/yimby-reading/ https://bendyimby.com/2017/06/12/yimby-reading/
- pchristensen 8y ago
  I used to live in Dublin, CA outside of SF, and there was a big housing boom there. I said that SF could turn off Dublin's housing boom with one vote. The entire Western US is in the same position with CA - every good place to live west of the Rockies is inundated with people leaving CA, many carrying CA housing wealth with them.
  - davidw 8y ago
    Sadly, a lot of them bring the same bullshit policies and ideas with them. One person, originally from LA, commenting locally here in Bend was complaining about how a duplex would "ruin the neighborhood".
    - StudentStuff 8y ago
      California Expats in large numbers are often disastrous for local politics. Many were political outsiders in Cali, but they bring baggage like the strong police state bent that most in SoCal seem to prefer with them. Especially in smaller communities, it is quite common to see a major ideological divide between those fleeing Cali and everyone else who lives there.
      - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
        I could not agree more.
    - borkt 8y ago
      A lot but not all. I live in the north sf bay (born and raised) and am an engineer for a municipality that has seen a big influx in the past 10-years of wealthy bay area/socal types. I (and basically all of my co-workers who mostly grew up here when it was not much different from Oregon) feel the same way you do in Bend about them here in California. It is definitely a class of people who are all about getting up in everyone's business if it is something they do not agree with. I am not sure where they come from but I would definitely say it isn't so much California as a whole, as maybe those accustomed to urban centers moving to more rural areas.
      - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
        >It is definitely a class of people who are all about getting up in everyone's business if it is something they do not agree with I agree. I think this mindset is cancerous to society. Being all up in everyone's business is part of what creates things like asinine zoning, the war on drugs, etc.
marcell 8y ago
This is awesome to see and I really hope more companies and institutions follow suit! Building housing should be the number one issue for every politician in the Bay Area and California.
Eridrus 8y ago
Are you concerned that the optics here of tech companies funding CA YIMBY will be bad, particularly since it is already seen as a tech employee group by opponents such as the existing low income housing advocacy groups?
- tomkarlo 8y ago
  If you're already accruing the supposed negatives of being associated with the industry (and I emphasize supposed, given that tech is also the region's biggest economic driver these days), you might as well have the dollars too. Tech companies are struggling to hire people in the Bay because of the housing crisis, it's entirely rational that they would start supporting efforts to fix the problem. At least in this case corporate interests are mostly aligned with public interests.
  - Eridrus 8y ago
    This assumes that your only two options are give them the money or not give them the money. They could give that money to someone else, e.g. to some of the low income housing groups that have existed for a while and who have not been pegged as tech proxies already.
    - netheril96 8y ago
      > to some of the low income housing groups that have existed for a while And that group is now pegged as a tech proxy.
    - tomkarlo 8y ago
      That doesn't help with the problem that the companies are trying to address, which is that their own employees and hires are having trouble finding housing.
erikpukinskis 8y ago
If these policies disproportionally hurt non-white people it should be (relatively) straightforward to get them overturned under the Civil Rights Act. Is anyone pursuing that?
ghein 8y ago
Thanks for taking a leadership role on this while so many others refuse to. Larry, Sergey, Mark, Marc, Marc, and Larry all should be actively helping these efforts to make housing more affordable to their employees and those of the companies that they invest in. And they all can afford a similar contribution far more easily than you and Stripe can.
- Apocryphon 8y ago
  Agreed entirely. It's shameful how big tech corporations have not been doing enough to champion better housing and transportation in the neighborhoods they are located in, while spending feel good PR initiatives on endeavors abroad, or lobbying in D.C. for regulation that benefits them directly.
  - slongfield 8y ago
    The Bay Area big tech companies are putting a lot into housing. This article is about a big-ish tech company championing YIMBY. Google is building 10,000 housing units ( https://www.mercurynews.com/2017/12/12/googles-massive-housing-and-office-plan-poised-for-approval/ https://www.mercurynews.com/2017/12/12/googles-massive-housi... ), Facebook is building 1,500 ( https://newsroom.fb.com/news/2017/07/investing-in-menlo-park-and-our-community/ https://newsroom.fb.com/news/2017/07/investing-in-menlo-park... ) and Apple put forward $75 million to improve transit in Cupertino ( http://www.cupertino.org/home/showdocument?id=15623 http://www.cupertino.org/home/showdocument?id=15623 ).
- jjeaff 8y ago
  Off topic, but curious who all the Larrys and Marcs are? I'm guessing Page, Ellison, Zuck, Andreesen, ... But that leaves another Marc?
  - keithwhor 8y ago
    Benioff.
    - 8y ago
slobotron 8y ago
Really enjoyed hearing you talk on the Knowledge Project Interview: Earning your Stripes [0]. 0: http://theknowledgeproject.libsyn.com/earning-your-stripes-my-conversation-with-patrick-collison http://theknowledgeproject.libsyn.com/earning-your-stripes-m...
dawsmik 8y ago
The rent control portion of sb827 may act as a deterrent to building new apartments. If you have to keep rents the same or pay 4 years rent to everyone in the building, it may be difficult to have the new, larger building pencil out.
- mercutio2 8y ago
  SB827 died quietly in committee.
- Decade 8y ago
  That was sort of the point. The bill was not authorizing anybody to raze existing homes to create new homes. It was not changing demolition controls, and it was not changing any approval processes. It was about setting baseline numbers for what would be legal to build. Scott Wiener is a nerdy guy and his policies are very nerdy. SB 827 was about allowing dense housing near transit. Wiener’s political rival held an anti-SB-827 rally next to a major transit stop with 3 light-rail train lines and a major bus line (and several minor bus lines). That location has a 26-foot height limit. If SB 827 had passed, those 1-story boutique shops could be replaced by 4-story apartments over retail. https://medium.com/@Scott_Wiener/offering-no-solutions-jane-kim-cynically-flips-and-attacks-senator-wieners-transit-housing-bill-f51765f86a22 https://medium.com/@Scott_Wiener/offering-no-solutions-jane-... This is one reason why I support London Breed for mayor.
aphextron 8y ago
>Bad housing policy is one of the biggest impediments to overall economic growth[1] and to individual economic opportunity[2][3] in the US. I would say it is the defining problem of our generation. The 20-30 year olds now who grew up in the bay area and aren't involved in tech have three options: Live with your parents until they die, work 40 hours a week just to feed yourself and pay the rent (split with random roommates), or move away from your entire family and support network. They live in a world where literally just being able to afford your own place is considered "bougie". It's insane. They can't even comprehend that there is a world where grown adults can live on there own and afford a respectable place to live while (gasp!) also saving for the future.
- creyes 8y ago
  Idk about _the_ problem. Healthcare might be a bigger problem than housing - especially since astronomical medical bills and lack of insurance can cause people who had homes to lose them
  - wjossey 8y ago
    Just looking at GDP (in the US), medical expenses do account for more of GDP than housing; however, a lot of those medical expenses come from Medicaid & Medicare, and are not directly out of pocket. I'd love to try to find the % GDP of out of pocket / Premium expenses in the USA as a comparison. I think you could make a clean argument it's a 1a / 1b sort of problem. Housing & healthcare are two of the most basic needs in a modern society, and both have systemic issues across much of the country.
    - WillPostForFood 8y ago
      Medicare and Medicare costs may not be out of the recipients pocket, but they are paid out of someone’s pocket.
      - maccam94 8y ago
        However, housing costs affect young people more than Medicaid/Medicare, and younger people contribute more to GDP than Medicaid/Medicare recipients. So, when talking about GDP growth, housing is likely much more significant.
flaque 8y ago
Is there a way techies can volunteer their skills to help out?
abalone 8y ago
> Our current restrictive policies disproportionately hurt poorer, younger, and (frequently) non-white[4] people. There is massive opposition within the poorer, non-white bay area community to the political group that Stripe is funding here. CA YIMBY [EDIT: correction, should read YIMBY Action] literally shouted down minority activists who were opposed to a housing bill at a recent protest. The LA Times just published a good overview of this issue yesterday. The title: "A major California housing bill failed after opposition from the low-income residents it aimed to help. Here's how it went wrong"[1] Money quote: "'The YIMBY movement has a white privilege problem,' said Anya Lawler, a lobbyist with the Western Center on Law & Poverty, a legal advocacy group and adversary of SB 827. 'I don't think they recognize it. They don't understand poverty. They don't understand what that's like, who our clients really are and what their lived experience is.'" Concessions to protect low-income residents were added to the failed bill only after substantial protest from the community. Let's hope next time around, instead of just claiming to act on behalf on poorer and non-white people, they actually try listening to them. [1] http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-pol-ca-housing-bill-failure-equity-groups-20180502-story.html http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-pol-ca-housing-bill-failu...
- rcpt 8y ago
  > CA YIMBY literally shouted down minority activists who were opposed to a housing bill at a recent protest. There should be a ton of videos accompanying this, right? All I could find was https://www.facebook.com/groups/vote123equity2018/permalink/225109874735410/ https://www.facebook.com/groups/vote123equity2018/permalink/... which looks like pretty standard protesting to me.
  - abalone 8y ago
    EDIT: I apologize, yes, that's YIMBY Action not CA YIMBY in the video. So there was shouting down minority speakers at the protest, but from a different YIMBY group. ----- Yes, here is video of CA YIMBY shouting down minority affordable housing activists.[1] The executive director of CA YIMBY apologized for her organization's behavior.[2] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WrVEYKVtfU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WrVEYKVtfU [2] https://twitter.com/NeverSassyLaura/status/981901464929951744 https://twitter.com/NeverSassyLaura/status/98190146492995174...
dabockster 8y ago
I am an admirer of the YIMBY movement, but I do have an issue with the idea. You seem to be assuming that, by building more units and increasing density, normal supply/demand forces will normalize the housing market. But, and here's my issue, what incentive is there for the landlord to lower prices before everyone who can't afford the current rates leave the SF area forever? I see the possibility of a landlord bringing more units online but still charging $3-4k a month rent just because they can. I also see the possibility of possible market collusion in order to keep rents high (multiple landlords colluding with each other to maximize profit) at the continued expense of tenants. With these possibilities in mind, just building more apartments may not be enough. I feel that the YIMBY idea is a good first step, but it is far from an end all solution.
- davidw 8y ago
  You're 100% correct that allowing more housing will not fix things overnight - it'll take time. "The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now." I don't think collusion is easy in a market with so many landlords. Here's an article about Denver prices dipping a few years back due to - you guessed it - lots of supply: https://www.curbed.com/2017/1/25/14342828/denver-rents-affordable-housing-apartments https://www.curbed.com/2017/1/25/14342828/denver-rents-affor...
- higginsc 8y ago
  You started off saying one thing: >You seem to be assuming that, by building more units and increasing density, normal supply/demand forces will normalize the housing market. And then proceeded to say a bunch of stuff that makes me think you don't believe this assumption. Think through your own example. Even if landlords collude, "still charging $3-4k a month rent", and more units open up, eventually some of those units will not be rented. Dormant units do not generate revenue, regardless of the asking price. If even more units are added, more landlords will continue to collect $0 on their dormant units. Landlords then have two options: continue to ask for $X dollars and get $0 or ask for $X-Y dollars and get $X-Y dollars. If $(X-Y) > $0, the law of large numbers, empirical studies, and common sense dictate that landlords will choose option B. Prices could stay high, however, if more people move to the area, increasing demand to match supply.
rubicon33 8y ago
I cannot thank you guys enough. I use Stripe for my small business and it has been nothing short of incredible. Now to hear that you're jumping into this housing crisis is absolutely amazing. It gives me hope that maybe, just maybe, if more big players get behind this movement, some REAL CHANGE might happen in California. You guys didn't have to do this, but you're doing it because it's the right thing to do and that is awsome. So I just want to extend a sincere thank you.
ummonk 8y ago
Thank you for doing this. I've always believed that the organizations employing workers in the Bay Area (and generating tax revenue for the state and municipalities) are the best suited for helping ensure that sufficient housing is built to provide affordable housing for their employees and everyone else in the Bay Area.
ilyaeck 8y ago
Patrick - a strong statement indeed, kudos you guys! To to diminish from it, but even stronger statement would be for Stripe to relocate the HQ to another state, or at least to a city lake Vallejo. It may be impractical at this point, but ...
- CalRobert 8y ago
  If Vallejo had BART or the Capitol Corridor this could make sense. As it stands now getting there could be nearly more painful than getting to downtown Davis or Sacramento.
foobarqux 8y ago
Can I ask what do you think is the impediment to changing housing policy and how you think those impediments might be addressed? Most of these proposals and organizations lack realpolitik.
gajjanag 8y ago
Thanks a lot for your work on this issue, and for your references - especially [1]. I had a conversation with a friend a week back where we tried to estimate what is the reduction in economic growth due to the lack of a sane housing policy, and am happy to see that [1] addresses this question.
eanzenberg 8y ago
Thank you. I’m an owner and I’m a strong believer in this raising a tide that raises all boats. Lets let SF and the Bay Area become the hub of excellence. That starts with affordable housing for all who want to be here.
WillPostForFood 8y ago
You mean you’d rather not have to pay higher wages, so you are looking for others to subsidize a fix.
neom 8y ago
Curious why this was a corporate donation instead of a personal donation?
CalRobert 8y ago
One of the biggest reasons I left the US was because I wanted: * A decent paying job in tech * In a neighborhood where I could walk to do things with my friends * But my friends didn't all have astronomical salaries * I could ride a bike without getting screamed at * My child could ride her bike to school without getting run over by a car * (Unrelated but while I'm at it) - I could take a true vacation or weekend and nobody would dream of asking me how they reach me on said vacation. I don't know of a single place in the US that meets these criteria. At one point I might have said Portland but the nicer areas there are getting very, very expensive.
- Leszek 8y ago
  Can I ask what such city you found?
  - baud147258 8y ago
    I'm guessing it's in Europe.
  - CalRobert 8y ago
    To be completely honest, the city I'm in now doesn't meet those criteria as well as I'd like, but I'm currently in Dublin. It falls flat on housing, though, mostly because rents and buying costs are up 80% or so in the last few years. When I moved here it was quite affordable. It also fails badly on: * My child could ride her bike to school without getting run over by a car But I'm in the Dublin Cycling Campaign and pushing to make that better. If I were moving _now_ I'd be looking closely at Utrecht. Another person mentioned Lausanne which I admit has me a bit envious too; looks to be quite reasonable https://www.immoscout24.ch/en/flat/rent/city-lausanne https://www.immoscout24.ch/en/flat/rent/city-lausanne
  - estsauver 8y ago
    As mentioned in another comment, Amsterdam actually checks all the boxes.
- adriaanm 8y ago
  Ditto. I just moved from the Bay Area to Lausanne for many of the same reasons (except the vacations: still working for the same awesome employer).
starik36 8y ago
Patrick, I disagree with your stance. You are looking to trade in one problem (housing prices) for more traffic, congestion and a lower quality of life. I feel like we need avoid latching onto the simplest solution to every problem and think outside of the box on this one.
- rorykoehler 8y ago
  If you can live near work you don't need a car. How did you come to the conclusion that affordable housing increases traffic?
mceoin 8y ago
Patrick, Although generally supportive of the Yimby movement in cities and the need to increase density, I am concerned that SB 827 (and similar) will steamroll the will of voters in smaller counties where staunch opposition remains. Marin County, just across the bridge from San Francisco, is a good example: they have a strong history of opposition to housing development and density[1], and the overwhelming majority of Marin residents are opposed to top-down State measures to impose density requirements. This is quite different to San Francisco, where the YIMBY movement appears to have majority support (including me) and where a local jobs boom and office space increase has created a housing imbalance. I would prefer that this is handled locally and am genuinely curious to know why the state government should be the interlocutor and arbiter? 1. http://rebelsdocumentary.org/ http://rebelsdocumentary.org/
- pzone 8y ago
  Places like Marin county are nice to live in. More people would be very happy to move there. This could happen if Marin county built more housing, but the residents who currently live there can vote against it. The YIMBY movement identifies this key problem: only people who live in a county have any say in the local politics. The people who would benefit from looser zoning laws have no say in the matter. If you let every county make choose on its own: stay exclusionary or build more, then every county votes to stay exclusionary, and you end up with the situation we see today. If want to do what's best for everyone as a whole, you need higher levels of government to step in and represent those people who don't otherwise have a voice.
- surrealize 8y ago
  Local control (and the perverse incentives that operate at that level) is exactly what's causing the problem. State-level intervention is the achievable way to fix it. Homeowners in a city have an incentive to block housing construction. That hurts everyone who commutes into that city; those people deserve a say too, and they have one at the state level.
  - mceoin 8y ago
    > That hurts everyone who commutes into that city; those people deserve a say too, and they have one at the state level. That's a fair point. (Although I would prefer to see it solved through fiscal incentives since the state is the one paying for transit construction.)
CalRobert 8y ago
To be fair, I imagine you must realize these exact same problems affect Ireland.

by pc 8y ago

davidw 8y ago

I can't say thank you enough! California's housing policies have repercusions even way up here in Bend, Oregon: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/back-againbend-oregon-matt-abrams/?published=t https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/back-againbend-oregon-matt-ab... The articles and book you cite are excellent ones, and I'd highly recommend them to anyone interested in this issue. I have a bunch more here, too: https://bendyimby.com/2017/06/12/yimby-reading/ https://bendyimby.com/2017/06/12/yimby-reading/

pchristensen 8y ago
I used to live in Dublin, CA outside of SF, and there was a big housing boom there. I said that SF could turn off Dublin's housing boom with one vote. The entire Western US is in the same position with CA - every good place to live west of the Rockies is inundated with people leaving CA, many carrying CA housing wealth with them.
- davidw 8y ago
  Sadly, a lot of them bring the same bullshit policies and ideas with them. One person, originally from LA, commenting locally here in Bend was complaining about how a duplex would "ruin the neighborhood".
  - StudentStuff 8y ago
    California Expats in large numbers are often disastrous for local politics. Many were political outsiders in Cali, but they bring baggage like the strong police state bent that most in SoCal seem to prefer with them. Especially in smaller communities, it is quite common to see a major ideological divide between those fleeing Cali and everyone else who lives there.
    - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
      I could not agree more.
  - borkt 8y ago
    A lot but not all. I live in the north sf bay (born and raised) and am an engineer for a municipality that has seen a big influx in the past 10-years of wealthy bay area/socal types. I (and basically all of my co-workers who mostly grew up here when it was not much different from Oregon) feel the same way you do in Bend about them here in California. It is definitely a class of people who are all about getting up in everyone's business if it is something they do not agree with. I am not sure where they come from but I would definitely say it isn't so much California as a whole, as maybe those accustomed to urban centers moving to more rural areas.
    - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
      >It is definitely a class of people who are all about getting up in everyone's business if it is something they do not agree with I agree. I think this mindset is cancerous to society. Being all up in everyone's business is part of what creates things like asinine zoning, the war on drugs, etc.

marcell 8y ago

This is awesome to see and I really hope more companies and institutions follow suit! Building housing should be the number one issue for every politician in the Bay Area and California.

Eridrus 8y ago

Are you concerned that the optics here of tech companies funding CA YIMBY will be bad, particularly since it is already seen as a tech employee group by opponents such as the existing low income housing advocacy groups?

tomkarlo 8y ago
If you're already accruing the supposed negatives of being associated with the industry (and I emphasize supposed, given that tech is also the region's biggest economic driver these days), you might as well have the dollars too. Tech companies are struggling to hire people in the Bay because of the housing crisis, it's entirely rational that they would start supporting efforts to fix the problem. At least in this case corporate interests are mostly aligned with public interests.
- Eridrus 8y ago
  This assumes that your only two options are give them the money or not give them the money. They could give that money to someone else, e.g. to some of the low income housing groups that have existed for a while and who have not been pegged as tech proxies already.
  - netheril96 8y ago
    > to some of the low income housing groups that have existed for a while And that group is now pegged as a tech proxy.
  - tomkarlo 8y ago
    That doesn't help with the problem that the companies are trying to address, which is that their own employees and hires are having trouble finding housing.

erikpukinskis 8y ago

If these policies disproportionally hurt non-white people it should be (relatively) straightforward to get them overturned under the Civil Rights Act. Is anyone pursuing that?

ghein 8y ago

Thanks for taking a leadership role on this while so many others refuse to. Larry, Sergey, Mark, Marc, Marc, and Larry all should be actively helping these efforts to make housing more affordable to their employees and those of the companies that they invest in. And they all can afford a similar contribution far more easily than you and Stripe can.

Apocryphon 8y ago
Agreed entirely. It's shameful how big tech corporations have not been doing enough to champion better housing and transportation in the neighborhoods they are located in, while spending feel good PR initiatives on endeavors abroad, or lobbying in D.C. for regulation that benefits them directly.
- slongfield 8y ago
  The Bay Area big tech companies are putting a lot into housing. This article is about a big-ish tech company championing YIMBY. Google is building 10,000 housing units ( https://www.mercurynews.com/2017/12/12/googles-massive-housing-and-office-plan-poised-for-approval/ https://www.mercurynews.com/2017/12/12/googles-massive-housi... ), Facebook is building 1,500 ( https://newsroom.fb.com/news/2017/07/investing-in-menlo-park-and-our-community/ https://newsroom.fb.com/news/2017/07/investing-in-menlo-park... ) and Apple put forward $75 million to improve transit in Cupertino ( http://www.cupertino.org/home/showdocument?id=15623 http://www.cupertino.org/home/showdocument?id=15623 ).
jjeaff 8y ago
Off topic, but curious who all the Larrys and Marcs are? I'm guessing Page, Ellison, Zuck, Andreesen, ... But that leaves another Marc?
- keithwhor 8y ago
  Benioff.
  - 8y ago

slobotron 8y ago

Really enjoyed hearing you talk on the Knowledge Project Interview: Earning your Stripes [0]. 0: http://theknowledgeproject.libsyn.com/earning-your-stripes-my-conversation-with-patrick-collison http://theknowledgeproject.libsyn.com/earning-your-stripes-m...

dawsmik 8y ago

The rent control portion of sb827 may act as a deterrent to building new apartments. If you have to keep rents the same or pay 4 years rent to everyone in the building, it may be difficult to have the new, larger building pencil out.

mercutio2 8y ago
SB827 died quietly in committee.
Decade 8y ago
That was sort of the point. The bill was not authorizing anybody to raze existing homes to create new homes. It was not changing demolition controls, and it was not changing any approval processes. It was about setting baseline numbers for what would be legal to build. Scott Wiener is a nerdy guy and his policies are very nerdy. SB 827 was about allowing dense housing near transit. Wiener’s political rival held an anti-SB-827 rally next to a major transit stop with 3 light-rail train lines and a major bus line (and several minor bus lines). That location has a 26-foot height limit. If SB 827 had passed, those 1-story boutique shops could be replaced by 4-story apartments over retail. https://medium.com/@Scott_Wiener/offering-no-solutions-jane-kim-cynically-flips-and-attacks-senator-wieners-transit-housing-bill-f51765f86a22 https://medium.com/@Scott_Wiener/offering-no-solutions-jane-... This is one reason why I support London Breed for mayor.

aphextron 8y ago

>Bad housing policy is one of the biggest impediments to overall economic growth[1] and to individual economic opportunity[2][3] in the US. I would say it is the defining problem of our generation. The 20-30 year olds now who grew up in the bay area and aren't involved in tech have three options: Live with your parents until they die, work 40 hours a week just to feed yourself and pay the rent (split with random roommates), or move away from your entire family and support network. They live in a world where literally just being able to afford your own place is considered "bougie". It's insane. They can't even comprehend that there is a world where grown adults can live on there own and afford a respectable place to live while (gasp!) also saving for the future.

creyes 8y ago
Idk about _the_ problem. Healthcare might be a bigger problem than housing - especially since astronomical medical bills and lack of insurance can cause people who had homes to lose them
- wjossey 8y ago
  Just looking at GDP (in the US), medical expenses do account for more of GDP than housing; however, a lot of those medical expenses come from Medicaid & Medicare, and are not directly out of pocket. I'd love to try to find the % GDP of out of pocket / Premium expenses in the USA as a comparison. I think you could make a clean argument it's a 1a / 1b sort of problem. Housing & healthcare are two of the most basic needs in a modern society, and both have systemic issues across much of the country.
  - WillPostForFood 8y ago
    Medicare and Medicare costs may not be out of the recipients pocket, but they are paid out of someone’s pocket.
    - maccam94 8y ago
      However, housing costs affect young people more than Medicaid/Medicare, and younger people contribute more to GDP than Medicaid/Medicare recipients. So, when talking about GDP growth, housing is likely much more significant.

flaque 8y ago

Is there a way techies can volunteer their skills to help out?

abalone 8y ago

> Our current restrictive policies disproportionately hurt poorer, younger, and (frequently) non-white[4] people. There is massive opposition within the poorer, non-white bay area community to the political group that Stripe is funding here. CA YIMBY [EDIT: correction, should read YIMBY Action] literally shouted down minority activists who were opposed to a housing bill at a recent protest. The LA Times just published a good overview of this issue yesterday. The title: "A major California housing bill failed after opposition from the low-income residents it aimed to help. Here's how it went wrong"[1] Money quote: "'The YIMBY movement has a white privilege problem,' said Anya Lawler, a lobbyist with the Western Center on Law & Poverty, a legal advocacy group and adversary of SB 827. 'I don't think they recognize it. They don't understand poverty. They don't understand what that's like, who our clients really are and what their lived experience is.'" Concessions to protect low-income residents were added to the failed bill only after substantial protest from the community. Let's hope next time around, instead of just claiming to act on behalf on poorer and non-white people, they actually try listening to them. [1] http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-pol-ca-housing-bill-failure-equity-groups-20180502-story.html http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-pol-ca-housing-bill-failu...

rcpt 8y ago
> CA YIMBY literally shouted down minority activists who were opposed to a housing bill at a recent protest. There should be a ton of videos accompanying this, right? All I could find was https://www.facebook.com/groups/vote123equity2018/permalink/225109874735410/ https://www.facebook.com/groups/vote123equity2018/permalink/... which looks like pretty standard protesting to me.
- abalone 8y ago
  EDIT: I apologize, yes, that's YIMBY Action not CA YIMBY in the video. So there was shouting down minority speakers at the protest, but from a different YIMBY group. ----- Yes, here is video of CA YIMBY shouting down minority affordable housing activists.[1] The executive director of CA YIMBY apologized for her organization's behavior.[2] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WrVEYKVtfU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WrVEYKVtfU [2] https://twitter.com/NeverSassyLaura/status/981901464929951744 https://twitter.com/NeverSassyLaura/status/98190146492995174...

dabockster 8y ago

I am an admirer of the YIMBY movement, but I do have an issue with the idea. You seem to be assuming that, by building more units and increasing density, normal supply/demand forces will normalize the housing market. But, and here's my issue, what incentive is there for the landlord to lower prices before everyone who can't afford the current rates leave the SF area forever? I see the possibility of a landlord bringing more units online but still charging $3-4k a month rent just because they can. I also see the possibility of possible market collusion in order to keep rents high (multiple landlords colluding with each other to maximize profit) at the continued expense of tenants. With these possibilities in mind, just building more apartments may not be enough. I feel that the YIMBY idea is a good first step, but it is far from an end all solution.

davidw 8y ago
You're 100% correct that allowing more housing will not fix things overnight - it'll take time. "The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now." I don't think collusion is easy in a market with so many landlords. Here's an article about Denver prices dipping a few years back due to - you guessed it - lots of supply: https://www.curbed.com/2017/1/25/14342828/denver-rents-affordable-housing-apartments https://www.curbed.com/2017/1/25/14342828/denver-rents-affor...
higginsc 8y ago
You started off saying one thing: >You seem to be assuming that, by building more units and increasing density, normal supply/demand forces will normalize the housing market. And then proceeded to say a bunch of stuff that makes me think you don't believe this assumption. Think through your own example. Even if landlords collude, "still charging $3-4k a month rent", and more units open up, eventually some of those units will not be rented. Dormant units do not generate revenue, regardless of the asking price. If even more units are added, more landlords will continue to collect $0 on their dormant units. Landlords then have two options: continue to ask for $X dollars and get $0 or ask for $X-Y dollars and get $X-Y dollars. If $(X-Y) > $0, the law of large numbers, empirical studies, and common sense dictate that landlords will choose option B. Prices could stay high, however, if more people move to the area, increasing demand to match supply.

rubicon33 8y ago

I cannot thank you guys enough. I use Stripe for my small business and it has been nothing short of incredible. Now to hear that you're jumping into this housing crisis is absolutely amazing. It gives me hope that maybe, just maybe, if more big players get behind this movement, some REAL CHANGE might happen in California. You guys didn't have to do this, but you're doing it because it's the right thing to do and that is awsome. So I just want to extend a sincere thank you.

ummonk 8y ago

Thank you for doing this. I've always believed that the organizations employing workers in the Bay Area (and generating tax revenue for the state and municipalities) are the best suited for helping ensure that sufficient housing is built to provide affordable housing for their employees and everyone else in the Bay Area.

ilyaeck 8y ago

Patrick - a strong statement indeed, kudos you guys! To to diminish from it, but even stronger statement would be for Stripe to relocate the HQ to another state, or at least to a city lake Vallejo. It may be impractical at this point, but ...

CalRobert 8y ago
If Vallejo had BART or the Capitol Corridor this could make sense. As it stands now getting there could be nearly more painful than getting to downtown Davis or Sacramento.

foobarqux 8y ago

Can I ask what do you think is the impediment to changing housing policy and how you think those impediments might be addressed? Most of these proposals and organizations lack realpolitik.

gajjanag 8y ago

Thanks a lot for your work on this issue, and for your references - especially [1]. I had a conversation with a friend a week back where we tried to estimate what is the reduction in economic growth due to the lack of a sane housing policy, and am happy to see that [1] addresses this question.

eanzenberg 8y ago

Thank you. I’m an owner and I’m a strong believer in this raising a tide that raises all boats. Lets let SF and the Bay Area become the hub of excellence. That starts with affordable housing for all who want to be here.

WillPostForFood 8y ago

You mean you’d rather not have to pay higher wages, so you are looking for others to subsidize a fix.

neom 8y ago

Curious why this was a corporate donation instead of a personal donation?

CalRobert 8y ago

One of the biggest reasons I left the US was because I wanted: * A decent paying job in tech * In a neighborhood where I could walk to do things with my friends * But my friends didn't all have astronomical salaries * I could ride a bike without getting screamed at * My child could ride her bike to school without getting run over by a car * (Unrelated but while I'm at it) - I could take a true vacation or weekend and nobody would dream of asking me how they reach me on said vacation. I don't know of a single place in the US that meets these criteria. At one point I might have said Portland but the nicer areas there are getting very, very expensive.

Leszek 8y ago
Can I ask what such city you found?
- baud147258 8y ago
  I'm guessing it's in Europe.
- CalRobert 8y ago
  To be completely honest, the city I'm in now doesn't meet those criteria as well as I'd like, but I'm currently in Dublin. It falls flat on housing, though, mostly because rents and buying costs are up 80% or so in the last few years. When I moved here it was quite affordable. It also fails badly on: * My child could ride her bike to school without getting run over by a car But I'm in the Dublin Cycling Campaign and pushing to make that better. If I were moving _now_ I'd be looking closely at Utrecht. Another person mentioned Lausanne which I admit has me a bit envious too; looks to be quite reasonable https://www.immoscout24.ch/en/flat/rent/city-lausanne https://www.immoscout24.ch/en/flat/rent/city-lausanne
- estsauver 8y ago
  As mentioned in another comment, Amsterdam actually checks all the boxes.
adriaanm 8y ago
Ditto. I just moved from the Bay Area to Lausanne for many of the same reasons (except the vacations: still working for the same awesome employer).

starik36 8y ago

Patrick, I disagree with your stance. You are looking to trade in one problem (housing prices) for more traffic, congestion and a lower quality of life. I feel like we need avoid latching onto the simplest solution to every problem and think outside of the box on this one.

rorykoehler 8y ago
If you can live near work you don't need a car. How did you come to the conclusion that affordable housing increases traffic?

mceoin 8y ago

Patrick, Although generally supportive of the Yimby movement in cities and the need to increase density, I am concerned that SB 827 (and similar) will steamroll the will of voters in smaller counties where staunch opposition remains. Marin County, just across the bridge from San Francisco, is a good example: they have a strong history of opposition to housing development and density[1], and the overwhelming majority of Marin residents are opposed to top-down State measures to impose density requirements. This is quite different to San Francisco, where the YIMBY movement appears to have majority support (including me) and where a local jobs boom and office space increase has created a housing imbalance. I would prefer that this is handled locally and am genuinely curious to know why the state government should be the interlocutor and arbiter? 1. http://rebelsdocumentary.org/ http://rebelsdocumentary.org/

pzone 8y ago
Places like Marin county are nice to live in. More people would be very happy to move there. This could happen if Marin county built more housing, but the residents who currently live there can vote against it. The YIMBY movement identifies this key problem: only people who live in a county have any say in the local politics. The people who would benefit from looser zoning laws have no say in the matter. If you let every county make choose on its own: stay exclusionary or build more, then every county votes to stay exclusionary, and you end up with the situation we see today. If want to do what's best for everyone as a whole, you need higher levels of government to step in and represent those people who don't otherwise have a voice.
surrealize 8y ago
Local control (and the perverse incentives that operate at that level) is exactly what's causing the problem. State-level intervention is the achievable way to fix it. Homeowners in a city have an incentive to block housing construction. That hurts everyone who commutes into that city; those people deserve a say too, and they have one at the state level.
- mceoin 8y ago
  > That hurts everyone who commutes into that city; those people deserve a say too, and they have one at the state level. That's a fair point. (Although I would prefer to see it solved through fiscal incentives since the state is the one paying for transit construction.)

CalRobert 8y ago

To be fair, I imagine you must realize these exact same problems affect Ireland.