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I don't think the two are comparable. Cheating on a test doesn't "take" anything of intrinsic value from another person, stealing does. Cheating hurts no one.

I don't think the two are comparable. Cheating on a test doesn't "take" anything of intrinsic value from another person, stealing does. Cheating hurts no one. You can argue that cheating puts you ahead of students that work in good faith, systemically, though it's still a bit different. Stealing has implied intent of taking something away from someone, cheating doesn't. You're just trying to get better grades.

walshemj 8y ago
devalues the value of the qualifications and hurts those that didn't cheat.
eecsninja 8y ago
Agreed 100%. We only think cheating is only "wrong" because it goes against how the people who set up the educational system intend for it to work, e.g. they are short circuiting the system. It has no counterpart in the real world, and cannot be compared to murder and theft. If it were up to me, I'd make the school system results-only -- i.e. it's about how well you can build a project and explain it, not how well you can write up answers. People who think otherwise need to wake up from their K-12-university programming. And in case anyone thinks I'm an uneducated redneck, I am an Asian American overachiever with two engineering degrees from world-renowned universities.
- nradov 8y ago
  A results-only education system would be preferable and would make some forms of cheating irrelevant. But it suffers from practical cost and scalability obstacles. We're already struggling to adequately fund public education. Are politicians willing to budget for additional teachers to evaluate student projects rather than relying on cheap and simple exams?
  - eecsninja 8y ago
    Maybe not, but companies are capable of assessing prospective employees. For the sake of my future children, that's all that matters to me. Fuck academia.
    - cirgue 8y ago
      If you think the only important part of your children’s future is their ability to get hired, then you’re already setting them up for a life of misery and disappointment.
      - eecsninja 8y ago
        If you think the only important part of your children's education is what happens inside the walls of schools, then you're already setting them up for a life of mediocrity and servitude.
        mwfunk 8y ago
        Why not do both? Learn your amazing life lessons outside of school and couple them with learning everything you can inside school. Why limit yourself? Why go out of your way to diminish your own value? It doesn’t make sense. That’s how people end up in lives of mediocrity and servitude- they make self-destructive life choices that they rationalize by wrapping them up in some sort of bogus heroic narrative that they literally only came with to make them feel less bad about themselves. There’s nothing wrong with failure, right up until someone decides to not learn from their failures, and enshrines them instead because it’s a lot less work and it feels better. I’ve been there and it sucks. There is no pot of gold at the end of that rainbow.
        eecsninja 8y ago
        Thanks for sharing, and for pointing out that it's ultimately about self-improvement. I'd upvote you more if I could.
        jamespo 8y ago
        except he didn't say "all that matters to me" unlike your overblown hyperbole
        isostatic 8y ago
        Of course the point of schools and college isn't the final exam, it's the years of learning you benefit from while being there At least it should be
- pbhjpbhj 8y ago
  >I am an Asian American overachiever with two engineering degrees from world-renowned universities. // .. and as cheating isn't wrong in your personal ethical system you're happy to lose your job to someone who claims to be better qualified than you but is just cheating to get ahead? I don't know what engineering you do but I don't think society should value engineers as highly who know something is wrong but can't explain it and so don't get it fixed. "Soft" skills matter.
hdctambien 8y ago
Cheating can take from others. Merit scholarships are given based on class rank. If the #11 student cheats to get to #10, then they took scholarship money that someone else actually earned. This is a very real problem in my school district. Additionally, if you cheated to get good grades and got into a good university because of them, then you probably took the seat of someone that didn't cheat and was not accepted but would have been. Also, (some?) universities internally rank high schools by the performance of the students they accept. So, if School A sends a bunch of 4.0 students that all flunk out, then future students from that school get their 4.0 weighted lower than a 4.0 from School B where students regularly graduate from the university with honors. So, if you are cheating to get a good grade and you get into a good school (taking the seat of a student that didn't cheat) and then you get caught cheating, or just end up doing poorly because you were never that good of a student, then future students from your high school will be penalized because of the poor choices you made (and because the school was unwilling or unable to deal with those choices).
- misterbowfinger 8y ago
  Yes, precisely!!!! The system is. broken. to. begin. with. And not just with cheating, with a number of different factors. What incentive, as a student, do I have to NOT cheat if I won't get caught?
  - tylerhou 8y ago
    1) your own personal ethics, and 2) the fact that being caught, especially in a college environment, has consequences.
    - misterbowfinger 8y ago
      [updated my comment, apologies for the poor wording]
  - PuercoPop 8y ago
    Learn. Which is the whole poiny of education in the first place.

walshemj 8y ago

devalues the value of the qualifications and hurts those that didn't cheat.

eecsninja 8y ago

Agreed 100%. We only think cheating is only "wrong" because it goes against how the people who set up the educational system intend for it to work, e.g. they are short circuiting the system. It has no counterpart in the real world, and cannot be compared to murder and theft. If it were up to me, I'd make the school system results-only -- i.e. it's about how well you can build a project and explain it, not how well you can write up answers. People who think otherwise need to wake up from their K-12-university programming. And in case anyone thinks I'm an uneducated redneck, I am an Asian American overachiever with two engineering degrees from world-renowned universities.

nradov 8y ago
A results-only education system would be preferable and would make some forms of cheating irrelevant. But it suffers from practical cost and scalability obstacles. We're already struggling to adequately fund public education. Are politicians willing to budget for additional teachers to evaluate student projects rather than relying on cheap and simple exams?
- eecsninja 8y ago
  Maybe not, but companies are capable of assessing prospective employees. For the sake of my future children, that's all that matters to me. Fuck academia.
  - cirgue 8y ago
    If you think the only important part of your children’s future is their ability to get hired, then you’re already setting them up for a life of misery and disappointment.
    - eecsninja 8y ago
      If you think the only important part of your children's education is what happens inside the walls of schools, then you're already setting them up for a life of mediocrity and servitude.
      - mwfunk 8y ago
        Why not do both? Learn your amazing life lessons outside of school and couple them with learning everything you can inside school. Why limit yourself? Why go out of your way to diminish your own value? It doesn’t make sense. That’s how people end up in lives of mediocrity and servitude- they make self-destructive life choices that they rationalize by wrapping them up in some sort of bogus heroic narrative that they literally only came with to make them feel less bad about themselves. There’s nothing wrong with failure, right up until someone decides to not learn from their failures, and enshrines them instead because it’s a lot less work and it feels better. I’ve been there and it sucks. There is no pot of gold at the end of that rainbow.
        eecsninja 8y ago
        Thanks for sharing, and for pointing out that it's ultimately about self-improvement. I'd upvote you more if I could.
      - jamespo 8y ago
        except he didn't say "all that matters to me" unlike your overblown hyperbole
      - isostatic 8y ago
        Of course the point of schools and college isn't the final exam, it's the years of learning you benefit from while being there At least it should be
pbhjpbhj 8y ago
>I am an Asian American overachiever with two engineering degrees from world-renowned universities. // .. and as cheating isn't wrong in your personal ethical system you're happy to lose your job to someone who claims to be better qualified than you but is just cheating to get ahead? I don't know what engineering you do but I don't think society should value engineers as highly who know something is wrong but can't explain it and so don't get it fixed. "Soft" skills matter.

hdctambien 8y ago

Cheating can take from others. Merit scholarships are given based on class rank. If the #11 student cheats to get to #10, then they took scholarship money that someone else actually earned. This is a very real problem in my school district. Additionally, if you cheated to get good grades and got into a good university because of them, then you probably took the seat of someone that didn't cheat and was not accepted but would have been. Also, (some?) universities internally rank high schools by the performance of the students they accept. So, if School A sends a bunch of 4.0 students that all flunk out, then future students from that school get their 4.0 weighted lower than a 4.0 from School B where students regularly graduate from the university with honors. So, if you are cheating to get a good grade and you get into a good school (taking the seat of a student that didn't cheat) and then you get caught cheating, or just end up doing poorly because you were never that good of a student, then future students from your high school will be penalized because of the poor choices you made (and because the school was unwilling or unable to deal with those choices).

misterbowfinger 8y ago
Yes, precisely!!!! The system is. broken. to. begin. with. And not just with cheating, with a number of different factors. What incentive, as a student, do I have to NOT cheat if I won't get caught?
- tylerhou 8y ago
  1) your own personal ethics, and 2) the fact that being caught, especially in a college environment, has consequences.
  - misterbowfinger 8y ago
    [updated my comment, apologies for the poor wording]
- PuercoPop 8y ago
  Learn. Which is the whole poiny of education in the first place.