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Hardware. That’s the keyword, and it might very well be true. Tesla doesn’t claim their software is capable of full self-driving yet and in fact the system will

Hardware. That’s the keyword, and it might very well be true. Tesla doesn’t claim their software is capable of full self-driving yet and in fact the system will scream at you and stop the car if you take your hands off the steering wheel for too long.

lordnacho 9y ago
And when the software is self-driving, it's safe to use the car in the way we all want? Who's to know if there isn't a third key component necessary for that, behind yet another technical term?
ghostly_s 9y ago
It's deliberately deceptive, and I'm real tired of tech people tripping over each other to defend it. Technically correct? Sure. But deliberately phrased to obscure the fact that this is a hypothetical future capability that the product does not possess today. And please spare me your "well actually, the showroom attendants will clarify exactly what it means" -- they are framing this in a misleading way to generate public interest.
- myared 9y ago
  Who is being deceived? Non-Tesla owners? Or are you suggesting that there are Tesla owners who are (a) sitting in their driveway wondering why their car isn't driving them to work or (b) returning their cars upon finding out many of the features on the Autopilot page require regulatory approval?
  - GW150914 9y ago
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/tesla-autopilot-driver-motorway-m1-nottingham-a8326911.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/tesla-autopilot-... Tesla driver caught turning on autopilot and leaving driver’s seat on motorway Culprit admits he knew what he had done was ‘silly’ but that the car was capable of something ‘amazing’
- kmonsen 9y ago
  so how do anyone actually know what the hardware is capable of if the software is not ready? I mean there is no way to verify that hardware is ready for anything on its own.
- jrs95 9y ago
  It's exceedingly clear to me that they're talking about hardware that can support future capabilities -- additional features via software upgrades is something they talk about a lot. And they're very explicit about what their Autopilot system does and doesn't do on their site. There's basically no situation in which someone is buying a $70,000+ car without knowing how the Autopilot works. It's really not that deceptive. People would have to be a lot dumber than they actually are to be confused about it.
  - AsyncAwait 9y ago
    > It's really not that deceptive. I'd say that if they're claiming to be able to deliver full self-driving autonomy to existing cars via purely a SOFTWARE upgrade, then that's pretty deceptive, since I am pretty sure not even Tesla knows exactly what hardware might be required for such capability. They'll know when they build it, but not before.
tonyedgecombe 9y ago
I know plenty of people who couldn't tell you the difference between hardware and software.
mannykannot 9y ago
Watson might not be able to see what Tesla is trying to insinuate here...
m3rc 9y ago
That is a laughably dumb excuse.
alxlaz 9y ago
That ad is just deliberately deceptive. Not dishonest, it's misleading, and quite some work has been put in the wording, because it's nothing that anyone would ever say in a serious manner. Hardware alone has nothing to do with it, and anyone who's ever done some relevant bit of engineering understands that. If I shove four DSP boards and a laptop in my trunk, then hook them to the CAN bus and to four LIDAR sensors, my car would also have hardware that's fully capable of safe self-driving. That's one level past dishonest. Honest advertising would just be "none of our cars have full self-driving capability at a safety level substantially greater than that of a human driver". But this is on another level. Have they ever actually ran software that does, indeed, have this capability? Or do they have a detailed enough specification of that software, so that they can verify that it will, indeed, run on that hardware once it's written? It's probably a safe bet that they haven't, and they don't, and in fact there is no way to verify that the hardware is in fact capable of running such software. This is likely a good engineering bet (i.e. the hardware is probably enough to support their current software approach, and they'll hit the software's limitations before they hit the hardware's), but advertising engineering bets as safety-related selling points is really irresponsible. Bet with your own money all you want, but not with people's lives.
damon_c 9y ago
What about "safety level substantially greater than that of a human driver" being the keyword? Isn't Tesla's autopilot doing better than humans do in the same number of miles? We just all hear about it every time a Tesla is in a crash. If we heard about every human driver car accident, it would be overwhelming. edit: from this article: https://electrek.co/2018/03/30/tesla-autopilot-fatal-crash-data/ https://electrek.co/2018/03/30/tesla-autopilot-fatal-crash-d... In the US, there is one automotive fatality every 86 million miles across all vehicles from all manufacturers. For Tesla, there is one fatality, including known pedestrian fatalities, every 320 million miles in vehicles equipped with Autopilot hardware. If you are driving a Tesla equipped with Autopilot hardware, you are 3.7 times less likely to be involved in a fatal accident.
- simion314 9y ago
  The numbers are wrong since it compares expensive new cars versus everything else(old cars with no safety features, bikes, buses) if you compare with similar cars you get numbers that are not in Tesla favor. So try not to spread this false numbers, also the Tesla numbers are not open to be examined by third parties.
  - frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago
    Not to mention that every 320 million miles in vehicles equipped with Autopilot hardware. does not mean 320 million miles with autopilot controlling the vehicle. Who knows how many of those miles are human driven?
  - gnicholas 9y ago
    Yep, as shown by the stats in the latter half of this article: https://www.thedailybeast.com/how-tesla-and-elon-musk-exaggeraged-safety-claims-about-autopilot-and-cars https://www.thedailybeast.com/how-tesla-and-elon-musk-exagge... Disclosure: I am one of the co-authors
    - x43b 9y ago
      Why is applied physicist in quotes? Elon has a ivy league physics degree, was accepted at Stanford in applied physics, and has clearly applied a knowledge of physics at numerous companies.

lordnacho 9y ago

And when the software is self-driving, it's safe to use the car in the way we all want? Who's to know if there isn't a third key component necessary for that, behind yet another technical term?

ghostly_s 9y ago

It's deliberately deceptive, and I'm real tired of tech people tripping over each other to defend it. Technically correct? Sure. But deliberately phrased to obscure the fact that this is a hypothetical future capability that the product does not possess today. And please spare me your "well actually, the showroom attendants will clarify exactly what it means" -- they are framing this in a misleading way to generate public interest.

myared 9y ago
Who is being deceived? Non-Tesla owners? Or are you suggesting that there are Tesla owners who are (a) sitting in their driveway wondering why their car isn't driving them to work or (b) returning their cars upon finding out many of the features on the Autopilot page require regulatory approval?
- GW150914 9y ago
  https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/tesla-autopilot-driver-motorway-m1-nottingham-a8326911.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/tesla-autopilot-... Tesla driver caught turning on autopilot and leaving driver’s seat on motorway Culprit admits he knew what he had done was ‘silly’ but that the car was capable of something ‘amazing’
kmonsen 9y ago
so how do anyone actually know what the hardware is capable of if the software is not ready? I mean there is no way to verify that hardware is ready for anything on its own.
jrs95 9y ago
It's exceedingly clear to me that they're talking about hardware that can support future capabilities -- additional features via software upgrades is something they talk about a lot. And they're very explicit about what their Autopilot system does and doesn't do on their site. There's basically no situation in which someone is buying a $70,000+ car without knowing how the Autopilot works. It's really not that deceptive. People would have to be a lot dumber than they actually are to be confused about it.
- AsyncAwait 9y ago
  > It's really not that deceptive. I'd say that if they're claiming to be able to deliver full self-driving autonomy to existing cars via purely a SOFTWARE upgrade, then that's pretty deceptive, since I am pretty sure not even Tesla knows exactly what hardware might be required for such capability. They'll know when they build it, but not before.

tonyedgecombe 9y ago

I know plenty of people who couldn't tell you the difference between hardware and software.

mannykannot 9y ago

Watson might not be able to see what Tesla is trying to insinuate here...

m3rc 9y ago

That is a laughably dumb excuse.

alxlaz 9y ago

That ad is just deliberately deceptive. Not dishonest, it's misleading, and quite some work has been put in the wording, because it's nothing that anyone would ever say in a serious manner. Hardware alone has nothing to do with it, and anyone who's ever done some relevant bit of engineering understands that. If I shove four DSP boards and a laptop in my trunk, then hook them to the CAN bus and to four LIDAR sensors, my car would also have hardware that's fully capable of safe self-driving. That's one level past dishonest. Honest advertising would just be "none of our cars have full self-driving capability at a safety level substantially greater than that of a human driver". But this is on another level. Have they ever actually ran software that does, indeed, have this capability? Or do they have a detailed enough specification of that software, so that they can verify that it will, indeed, run on that hardware once it's written? It's probably a safe bet that they haven't, and they don't, and in fact there is no way to verify that the hardware is in fact capable of running such software. This is likely a good engineering bet (i.e. the hardware is probably enough to support their current software approach, and they'll hit the software's limitations before they hit the hardware's), but advertising engineering bets as safety-related selling points is really irresponsible. Bet with your own money all you want, but not with people's lives.

damon_c 9y ago

What about "safety level substantially greater than that of a human driver" being the keyword? Isn't Tesla's autopilot doing better than humans do in the same number of miles? We just all hear about it every time a Tesla is in a crash. If we heard about every human driver car accident, it would be overwhelming. edit: from this article: https://electrek.co/2018/03/30/tesla-autopilot-fatal-crash-data/ https://electrek.co/2018/03/30/tesla-autopilot-fatal-crash-d... In the US, there is one automotive fatality every 86 million miles across all vehicles from all manufacturers. For Tesla, there is one fatality, including known pedestrian fatalities, every 320 million miles in vehicles equipped with Autopilot hardware. If you are driving a Tesla equipped with Autopilot hardware, you are 3.7 times less likely to be involved in a fatal accident.

simion314 9y ago
The numbers are wrong since it compares expensive new cars versus everything else(old cars with no safety features, bikes, buses) if you compare with similar cars you get numbers that are not in Tesla favor. So try not to spread this false numbers, also the Tesla numbers are not open to be examined by third parties.
- frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago
  Not to mention that every 320 million miles in vehicles equipped with Autopilot hardware. does not mean 320 million miles with autopilot controlling the vehicle. Who knows how many of those miles are human driven?
- gnicholas 9y ago
  Yep, as shown by the stats in the latter half of this article: https://www.thedailybeast.com/how-tesla-and-elon-musk-exaggeraged-safety-claims-about-autopilot-and-cars https://www.thedailybeast.com/how-tesla-and-elon-musk-exagge... Disclosure: I am one of the co-authors
  - x43b 9y ago
    Why is applied physicist in quotes? Elon has a ivy league physics degree, was accepted at Stanford in applied physics, and has clearly applied a knowledge of physics at numerous companies.