26 ms·

Make your own sourdough

619 points by hendricius 8y ago

pomosly 8y ago
Good Amount of Alcohol - What Quantity are we talking about here?
tenf-sefhu 8y ago
No thank you
poulsbohemian 8y ago
Nicely done, excellent pictures.
- hendricius 8y ago
  Thanks. I usually do the baking, my fiancee does the pictures :D. I love to bake and a/b test the different doughs.
chrissnell 8y ago
I had a starter for several years that was descended from the one kept by Dick Proenekke [1]. He lived alone in a cabin that he built himself--by hand--deep in the Alaskan bush. He made sourdough pancakes daily and his original starter came from a friend of his back in town. Someone related to this person sells the starter (on a wooden spoon) that you can buy [2] and use to create your own descendant. There's a fascinating PBS documentary on him that you can watch on YouTube, if you're interested: [3] [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Proenneke https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Proenneke [2] http://richardproenneke.com/heirloom_sourdough_starter_spoon http://richardproenneke.com/heirloom_sourdough_starter_spoon [3] https://youtu.be/iYJKd0rkKss https://youtu.be/iYJKd0rkKss
- hendricius 8y ago
  Really interesting, thanks for the links. I would be curious to see how that starter behaves differently then mine. I really need a good microscope to analyse the different doughs in detail.
  - etrautmann 8y ago
    I have a colleague who sequences the genomes of the yeast in her sourdough starter to characterize how it changes over time :)
    - hendricius 8y ago
      That's amazing! What are here most important learnings? TLDR :D.
- rhcom2 8y ago
  That is an absolutely incredible combination of food and history. How did you like the results?
  - chrissnell 8y ago
    The starter was great but it's just sourdough starter. My palette is not refined enough to taste the difference between various sourdough cultures. Use the instructions in OP's link and it will probably be just as good. I think it's neat to have a starter from a place that's special to you. You could make one in your hometown, or in a favorite vacation spot, a place famous for its sourdough (like San Francisco), etc.
    - hendricius 8y ago
      Here in Germany many people trade starters across villages. It would be interesting to have a scientific study on the differences. Maybe there is different bacteria/yeast in the different villages?
      - lostlogin 8y ago
        The type of flour and the temperature it’s kept at make the most difference imho. You can notice a change in the smell as seasons change.
        hendricius 8y ago
        That would be really interesting to have in the recipes as well. Did you conduct any A/B tests?
        lostlogin 8y ago
        More or less - bulking up the starter and putting it in the fridge (7 degrees) but leaving some in a new batch of bread at 2o degrees. If you try bulking up a starter with high grade white flour you notice a difference pretty fast too.
- DrScump 8y ago
  He does his own narration in the film ("Alone in the Wilderness") as well.
  - omilu 8y ago
    That's not him, the narrator is Bob Swerer Jr who reads from Dicks autobiography. There are recordings of Dick you can watch and he sounds nothing like the narrators voice in Alone in the wilderness.
- tomcooks 8y ago
  He also contributed science with data taken from the field during his outings, when he wasn't busy being a badass
- bgaluszka 8y ago
  Correct me if I'm wrong but if you get sourdough made at some other place after couple of weeks your local culture will take over thus sourdough will loose that other place uniqueness so to speak. But I'm not an expert just something I remember when I was interested in sourdough and pizza making.
  - lmilcin 8y ago
    You are correct. Your method of keeping the starter will over time select the culture that is best suited for your method of keeping, from available gene pool.
    - vanderZwan 8y ago
      Reminds me of a story I heard of a beer brand (forgot which one) that opened a new factory which was heavily modernised, but decided to take the wooden roof from the old one and install it above the copper kettles in the new location to make sure the environmental bacterial cultures would remain the same to keep their "flavour identity"
    - saalweachter 8y ago
      Anecdotally, my experience has been that while yeast cultures are durable, you can also get some maladaptive selection going from time to time; eg, if you are too irregular in feeding your starter, you might end up with a slow-growing culture rather than the fast-growing culture you get from feeding your starter twice a day and want for a good rise. Your starter will still be alive, but not as useful until you start feeding it constantly again and get that fast-growing culture established again.
  - bonesss 8y ago
    I think that's a feature, not a bug :) The sourdough that comes from your kitchen is going to be unique to that place. Even moving across town can have a huge difference. It's a built-in thumbprint that makes sure that no one can ever really make grandmas pizza bottoms, or baguettes, quite the same...
slimbods 8y ago
Nice article, thanks. Losing your starter can be painful as it takes at least a week to build a new one. So it's good to have a backup; build a bit extra then freeze it. Should you lose your starter, you can defrost the backup and carry on right away. Especially handy if you go on holiday or can't bake for a few weeks.
- hendricius 8y ago
  Wouldn't freezing kill the bacteria and yeast?
  - seanhunter 8y ago
    It's pretty hardy and goes dormant. You only need a few alive to grow a healthy starter back when you need it again, so every now and then I make an extra amount, mix in a little more flour than normal, spread it in blobs on an aluminium foil-covered baking tray and stick the whole thing in the freezer. After a few hours I come back, pop them off the foil and into a freezer bag. When reviving, I try to use two blobs from two separate bags just in case one has died. I put them in tepid water for a bit, then add flour and mix and I'm back in business. My starter was given to me by Dan Lepard[1] (the end-boss of breadmaking) during a sourdough masterclass that I was given as a present. I thoroughly recommend this as a present if you have a friend or loved one who is interested in making bread btw. It's fantastic and you get payback in tasty loaves for many years. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Lepard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Lepard
    - achamayou 8y ago
      If it's just a few weeks, I've found the fridge to be fine. It will take a couple of feeds over 48h to re-activate completely, but it's otherwise ok. If you start from scratch, you can get going in 3/4 days if you're willing to throw in a bit of honey or maple syrup at first (1tsp). Without it, it does seem to take a week.
    - lostlogin 8y ago
      Mine lives in the fridge and works just fine. A month or two in the freezer once by accident was fine too.
caublestone 8y ago
A couple left academia to pursue their passion for cultures and turned their treasures into a market: http://www.sourdo.com http://www.sourdo.com Apparently they run into some sticky situations carrying dried yellowish brown powder around in aluminum foil. In Saudi Arabia they were detained at the airport for hours while authorities verified that the sketchy powder was in fact mostly harmless yeast.
- toredash 8y ago
  Mostly?
  - sjwright 8y ago
    Presumably the remainder was harmless non-yeast.
- lostlogin 8y ago
  Another misunderstanding - I know someone who had a baby sitter mistake the starter for yogurt and eat some. I’m sure that was an unpleasant surprise.
keithpeter 8y ago
Nice guide. I have tried a couple of sourdoughs but mine nearly always end up with a lot of alcohol (acetone smell, bitter liquid). As OA says, you can just scrape the liquid off the top and feed the sourdough to refresh it, but then the bread I bake has a slight acetoney taste. Suggestion: add a description of the sourdough after each day so people have a rough idea if their sourdough is growing. The photo helps - you get a lot of bubbles after around day 3 or 4 and the volume doubles.
- hendricius 8y ago
  Thanks for the suggestion. I think what you describe is natural. Don't worry. As you feed the mother dough from time to time that taste will diminish.
- bonesss 8y ago
  Fermentation goes through four phases, roughly paraphrased into: wheatey, champagne, alcohol, vomit. You're describing a starter that is too 'old'. Very 'young' starters have little flavour, and then get sweet and honey-like before getting souuuuuur. Personally I'd recommend just leaving it on the counter and going to a 24 hour or 12 hour feeding schedule. Flavour: you can absolutely scrape the bad stuff off the top and feed the starter to keep it alive. But if you're going to bake, remember that you're blending out the original product... If you start with some 'alcohol' or 'vomit' and mix out half, bread made the next day will be 33% bad-stuff. You want to mix out for say a week or so to get back to mostly tastey happy stuff. Also: not sure if this applies, but in general making a mature starter is a 5 week process from scratch. Bubbles in the first few days are generally bad bacteria dying in the container you're using... You can still bake with it, but keep going for a week and a half and see what kind of lovely smells start coming :)
  - keithpeter 8y ago
    Been through all four, not too much on the vomit stage though. Must have another bash at it soon, thanks.
  - convolvatron 8y ago
th0ma5 8y ago
Get some starter for the price of a stamp: http://carlsfriends.net/source.html http://carlsfriends.net/source.html Or choose from many others for sale: http://www.sourdo.com/our-sourdough-cultures-2/ http://www.sourdo.com/our-sourdough-cultures-2/
- hendricius 8y ago
  You can also go to many local bakeries. Here in Germany the are happy to give you some starter for free. But I still think making your own one is so easy, it's 14 minutes of time over a week.
  - th0ma5 8y ago
    100% agree. Among my favorite things was growing a starter from scratch.
drsim 8y ago
If you live in Denmark, the Meyers bakeries will give you free starter, just bring a container: https://www.meyersmad.dk/om-meyers/meyers-virksomheder/meyers-bageri/ https://www.meyersmad.dk/om-meyers/meyers-virksomheder/meyer...
- flyGuyOnTheSly 8y ago
  That is truly amazing! How old is their starter culture, do you know?
  - drsim 8y ago
    I don't unfortunately know. Their Purpurhvedebrød [1] is very nice with walnuts and cranberries. It got me thinking I'd like to try making it. The recipe mentions 'young sourdough'. [1] https://www.meyersmad.dk/lav-mad/opskrifter/purpurhvedebrod/ https://www.meyersmad.dk/lav-mad/opskrifter/purpurhvedebrod/
- dmos62 8y ago
  Same everywhere where there's artisan bread-making. Just ask if they have some and they'll gladly gift it to you or tell you when to come back.
  - cpfohl 8y ago
    I started sour-doughing last fall (My wife liked it better than my brewing hobby since it took shorter chunks of time and she liked the final product). My local bakery actually wouldn't give or sell me a starter because, and I quote, "I'd feel bad selling something like that, and it's too easy to start yourself". He then gave me instructions for starting the starter myself. It's been fun, and way less fussy than the internet likes to make it out to be. Except this page. Y'all seem to have the same abusive relationship to your starters as I do,.
- adamcharnock 8y ago
  I believe this actually used to be written into law in the UK. I don't think it is technically law any more, but regardless my dad finds that bakeries are always very happy to hand over some live yeast. Not sure if that is the same as a sourdough starter though...
hahla 8y ago
I find it funny that this is post is popular because the title includes “an engineers guide.” As a hobbyist bread and pizza maker there are so many amazing resources across pizzamaking.com, YouTube and reddit that have years of community input I’m almost insulted that this is more popular.
- jvkersch 8y ago
  I agree but I do like the fact that it's written in Markdown and hosted on GitHub. I don't know many recipe books that allow for issues to be raised and that accept pull requests ;)
  - calinet6 8y ago
    Nor many that need to ;) FWSY is pretty flawless as a whole work, and much more depth than this.
- hendricius 8y ago
  I really tried to skip all the mambojambo. Most recipes do not go into detail to answer the question of the why. It's almost like using any kind library when programming. You don't know the internals. My goal however is to really deep dive and actually go through the process of how the internals of that library work.
  - lostlogin 8y ago
    My bread method is the opposite - how many steps can I skip and get a great result. The answer for me has resulted in a loaf started just now (with a 10 year old starter). It’s evening now and I’ll cook it tomorrow at midday. Edit: I’m talking about a bread recipe, not a starter one, which is clearly an important difference.
- slow_donkey 8y ago
  Pizzamaking.com was one of my first communities and it was eye-opening to see how passionate people were about their craft even as hobbyists. I guess I shouldn't be surprised it's still active given their tenacity and older audience.
eps 8y ago
Wait, wait... there's no salt in the sourdough?
- cup-of-tea 8y ago
  No mention of salt in whole page. That is a huge omission. It's not even bread without salt. If you follow this recipe it will taste awful. Use salt if you want your bread to be like bakery bread. And there is no "salt to taste" in baking. 10g per 500g of flour is a good start but the point you add it is important so check a proper recipe.
  - hendricius 8y ago
    No salt at all in the sour dough. When baking you will add salt. I like around 2%. But in the mother sour dough you do not want any salt. This link is only about how to get your actual mother sour dough, not baking! That's still TODO and will follow up later. Edit: 2% of the flour's weight in salt. Let's say you bake 700 grams of flour (500 grams flour, 200 grams sour dough) then you would add 14 grams of salt. Note please that this is my personal preference. It could be you prefer more or less salt.
    - slow_donkey 8y ago
      2% bp not total weight. Should probably clarify since this isn't a baking audience
      - hendricius 8y ago
        Thanks
      - acqq 8y ago
        > 2% bp not total weight. Where bp stands for... what? > Should probably clarify since this isn't a baking audience. Yes please.
        8y ago
cup-of-tea 8y ago
Baking is a surprisingly geeky thing to do. While cooking is more about knowing your ingredients and tasting as you go, baking absolutely requires strict adherence to a recipe. I can't actually remember why I started baking bread. But when I first started the product was horrible. I would let the dough rise in a warm place and "make it big" as quickly as possible. For me the rising was just about CO_2 so it made sense. It took me a long time to realise that time is a crucial ingredient. You want the rise to take more time, not less. The difference is astonishing. I never had much luck with sourdough but I actually prefer the taste of "fresh" bread anyway in the French style. Sourdough is in fashion right now but don't think using cultured yeast gives an inferior product!
- hendricius 8y ago
  Excactly. You mentioned a good point. It's a different kind of taste simply. However you can replace the yeast in any regular recipe with sour dough. I failed so many times. But usually there is a good explanation to why your baking failed. I love it, you really have to use your brain.
- jvkersch 8y ago
  My bread has increased in quality so much by (a) mixing the ingredients (without the yeast, or with only a little bit of the sourdough starter) the night before (i.e. making a poolish), and (b) taking a full day to prepare: you knead a little, let it rest for a couple of hours, give it a few turns, rest, etc. As a result, the bread is much more flavorful, and the flavor is more delicate: not too sour, not too sweet, and you can chew it and feel the flavors develop.
  - atomical 8y ago
    My bread has much better flavor if I let the dough sit in the fridge for four days.
    - slow_donkey 8y ago
      I do this also for time control. I can effectively bake whenever convenient if it's half dormant in the fridge.
exDM69 8y ago
Excellent article! We've been baking sourdough bread at home for about a year now. When the starter is done, baking bread is a lot less work than when using yeast. The work is spread over a few days but there are no laborious processes involved.
- hendricius 8y ago
  Exactly. This strategy has been used by people since we first invented bread. I always think we should use it, it's ready for the taking.
alpb 8y ago
I am afraid your sourdough in the pictures is a bit unconventional. It did not raise as much I expected. Did you use a Dutch oven? Also some useful links: https://www.reddit.com/r/Breadit/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Breadit/ https://youtu.be/yg5nLQVg4VY https://youtu.be/yg5nLQVg4VY
lmilcin 8y ago
Recipe is fine for sure, and I was doing this for a long time, but some time ago I have learned superior way of keeping sourdough. The oft cited recipe asks for feeding it every day and also keeping something like 100% hydration. Remembering to feed it every day is a major hassle for me. My sourdough is a piece of bread dough that is enough to use for my next batch. Basically, after first rise and before I shape my bread, I will cut something between 50-200g of dough, put it in a glass container with a small hole for air circulation and store it in the fridge. I will not feed the starter. Next time I make bread I will take it out of the fridge and mix it with measured amount of warm water that is going to be used for the bread. Advantages: - no separate feeding, you cut a piece of bread, and you use it as part of next one, - hydration and salt level matches your bread recipe which means you can add way more or less starter and the bread will still have the same hydration and salt level, - the hydration and salt level makes it stable in a fridge for a very long time, I have tested up to 3 weeks with no ill effects and I decided not to stretch it any more. I was only able to keep the traditional 100% hydration no-salt starter for only about a week or risk it spoiling. I also use a spreadsheet to aid calculations (I plan to make android app but I somehow never have time to finish it): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1lSBl3kjAeitBUH75DEIRM95ZX94Tgk-miApmWdpHfUA/edit?usp=sharing https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1lSBl3kjAeitBUH75DEIR...
- vanderZwan 8y ago
  Have you considered opening an issue/sending a pull request on the github page? ;)
  - lmilcin 8y ago
    Excellent point, don't know why I did not think about doing this. I will do it tomorrow, I have a long drive before me today with wife and 3 kids.
- lostlogin 8y ago
  I’ve got a lazier option. Get some starter, add 70g of flour, 100g water and leave it overnight. Then stick it in the fridge and use it like you’d use a very slow working shop bought yeast (and maybe 20g at a time). Don’t feed it till it gets low. Treat it mean, any more effort on it is wasted. Mine’s coming up on 10 years old now and is just fine. I accidentally put it in the freezer and lost it for a month, I think it improved it.
ktpsns 8y ago
As a German, I appreciate this. I don't like the idea of nations, but in cultural terms, bread is one of the best innovations in this country. I always miss high quality bread when going to the US.
- lostlogin 8y ago
  Your doing down your beer and desserts.
- SideburnsOfDoom 8y ago
  It seems like places like the US and UK have swung between extremes: first a long period when beer was nothing but bland macrobrew: Bud light, Heineken etc, and then a growing counter-movement of artisanal craft beer. Same with bread, Artisanal Craft Sourdough bread is a thing now.
Qantourisc 8y ago
My brain seems to recall you want to keep your sourdough for 2 weeks before using it, to make sure there are no harmful strains left in your culture. But I cannot find the resource atm.
collyw 8y ago
Would this have appeared here is it wasn't hosted on github? Don't get me wrong, I am quite interested in fermentation (I make my own sauerkraut for probiotics), but it seems strange for it to appear at number one on the front page of HN.
- ttsda 8y ago
  From the README: >Learn how to master the art of baking the programmer way. If you love programming, you will also enjoy breaking some bread. A/B test, iterate and ultimately become a self taught baker. This repo is dedicated to becoming your bread manifesto with useful tricks and hacks. Furthermore the goal is to illustrate how easy making bread is and that you can get started today without expensive tools.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- kzrdude 8y ago
  What's number one is always rapidly changing though, so it doesn't mean much.
- unreal37 8y ago
  Here's one secret to getting on News YCombinator.
mtrovo 8y ago
I love this geek / hobbist way to approach cooking. Do you know any other books / websites / youtube channels with the same format? I enjoy watching French Guy Cooking [1] (he even has a video series about making your own bread which is quite good) but never found other sources with the same format. [1] https://www.youtube.com/user/FrenchGuyCooking/featured https://www.youtube.com/user/FrenchGuyCooking/featured
- washadjeffmad 8y ago
  Look into food science and biotech journals and other industrial literature. Heston Blumenthal's cookbooks also read more like lab manuals than most, and he takes advantage of common scientific instrumentation to create precise and reproducible recipes. Just learning basic lab methods is enough to make you a significantly more insightful cook. If you're mostly interested in bread, I found Daniel Leader's books to be excellent guides. "Local Breads" in particular goes into the many different levain and biga/sponge methods and the regional sourdoughs that use them.
- poooogles 8y ago
  The modernist cuisine books might be up your street then. https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=modernist+cuisine&tag=hydrukspg-21&index=aps&hvadid=186577499467&hvpos=1t1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=13455683551674071624&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=e&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9045886&hvtargid=kwd-20138705597&ref=pd_sl_1g5h4lz830_e https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=modernist+cuisi...
  - FredrikMeyer 8y ago
    He has now also written books about bread! https://www.amazon.co.uk/Modernist-Bread-Art-Science-Cuisine/dp/0982761058/ref=la_B003TG79GU_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1524931038&sr=1-1 https://www.amazon.co.uk/Modernist-Bread-Art-Science-Cuisine...
punnerud 8y ago
Been thinking about an automatic machine to make bread this way. Everything you need is flour, water and power if you have the machine.
- hendricius 8y ago
  Yes, but it is really to to have one machine to rule them all. It also depends on each flour you are using. The machine would work better in some countries than others.
nwatson 8y ago
"As a baker it is your job to ensure that [the yeast and bacteria] feel happy and enjoy their home." ... until you impose hell upon them in the form of an oven. That is one awkward "light-hearted" sentence.
tclancy 8y ago
Tempted to file a bug report that simply reads, “Bacteria”.
nautilus12 8y ago
"If you don't feed your mother dough it will starve eventually as it has no more food." I read this out of context with hilarious interpretation.
nimbius 8y ago
while this is an excellent introduction to creating a sourdough starter this doesnt cover oven temperatures, bulk ferment, shaping, or the obvious use of a banneton for final rise. There is every possibility you'll be able to create this starter and still end up with a pancake. The final picture in the link is absurd. The crumb is too wet to do much more than gum up a bread knife and the crust is undefined. in the first picture, the crust is underdeveloped suggesting low oven temperatures or a cold kitchen. Id like to clarify this recipe by adding the following: 80% hydration of the loaf if you're making a rustic/boule and to promote proper gas development in the gluten structure. 65% for sandwich sourdough loaves formed in a pan (and a prayer). 450F oven temp for 45 minutes. 12 hour rest after cooking to allow gluten to properly finalize. 1.8% salt in accordance with the EU health commission recommendations for salt content of artisan breads. remember to subtract your preferment hydration from the total fermentation. that is, if you start with a 100% hydrated 200g starter, then 100g of water must be deleted from your 80% final hydration. if you dont have the patience for sourdough --and frankly a commercial steam proofer-- then 1-2% yeast by weight is the general recommendation for white bread. If you've never baked before, sourdough is enough to turn you off to the idea of anything but store bought. it is not as easy as this post makes it seem.
- tonyarkles 8y ago
  Just to make sure we're clear on this, since I'm relatively new to breadmaking and have so far only followed exact recipes... 80% hydration refers to mass ratios, correct? 80% hydration = 100g flour to 80g water?
  - hendricius 8y ago
    Exactly.
- tsieling 8y ago
  Thanks for adding pretty much the same things I wanted to say, but doing so better. Getting good at leavened sourdough takes time and practice, but it is absolutely worth the journey. There is a world of variety and frustration and joy and surprise in just flour+water+salt and whatever wild yeast is in your air.
DanAndersen 8y ago
If anyone is looking for frugal yet meaningful gifts for Christmas, etc, I found great success by making gifts of my sourdough starter to some close friends and family. Some time beforehand, I started to split up and increase the amount of starter I was growing, then printed little laminated labels with instructions for feeding the starter (and an example recommended bread recipe that was easy to make), and attached it to the mason jars in which I was storing the starter.
notyourday 8y ago
I'm surprised no one mentioned Alton Brown: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqxkMqsEQI0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqxkMqsEQI0
verelo 8y ago
On the topic of bread for a moment: I recently started making my own bread. I bought a book on the topic by Ken Forkish "Flour water salt yeast", and I've fallen in love with the process. The recipes are great, but the first few chapters that cover his journey to making bread, a bit of the science behind it and talking about the less scientific components of what almost sounds like "luck" (Really, just super detailed experimentation and careful repetition once you get the variables right) in the process of getting the perfect rise. I've got to admit, i'm not a big reader, but there is something about the way Ken put this book together that I really enjoy. Maybe it's that he worked for IBM before becoming a baker and we both think like technical individuals? Maybe it's just good writing and I need to experience more of it? Whatever it is, I'd encourage you to buy the book...i've got no skin in the game, but bread making is great and his methods are slow but fun (My first bread took 18 hours to go through the whole process).
- calinet6 8y ago
  ^ 100% agree, that's the best book. It does a great job of explaining the exact reasons, science, and tradeoffs between the critical factors, and you come away with not just instructions, but a deeper understanding of bread and how it really works and why. It's a really great book.
  - MegaDeKay 8y ago
    Jeffrey Hamelman's "Bread" is also a great book. He really digs into the science of bread, and he also offers up an incredibly wide variety of techniques that will really expand your repertoire. Unfortunately, I can't come up with the dough (ha ha) for Modernist Bread...
- moosehawk 8y ago
  Second "Flour Water Salt Yeast". I've been baking bread for a few years now following his techniques with great success. He also has a 2nd book called "The Elements of Pizza" that I highly recommend. I had a similar experience when starting. The process seemed time consuming and complicated, but now I can bake a couple loaves any day of the week with a small amount of planning and little effort/thought. In both books he provides techniques and recipes for being able to start baking bread and pizzas with little or no upfront investment (some containers, a couple bannetons for bread and a peel + stone for pizzas). The best part of the process is experimenting with your own recipes. Here's a couple shots of some recent loaves and pizzas I've baked recently: https://i.imgur.com/0cKI4ad.jpg https://i.imgur.com/0cKI4ad.jpg https://i.imgur.com/iMkzJJB.jpg https://i.imgur.com/iMkzJJB.jpg https://i.imgur.com/ZEIlGy9.png https://i.imgur.com/ZEIlGy9.png https://i.imgur.com/gr0qO2t.png https://i.imgur.com/gr0qO2t.png
caffeine5150 8y ago
I started making sourdough out of law school back in the late 90's when I got Nancy Silverton's book on the topic (La Brea Bakery Founder). I baked bread back then, but found it too exacting and inconsistent. I began again years later after starting a family and almost every weekend we make the amazing sourdough pancakes and waffles in Silverton's book. We maintain a starter that's 60% water and 40% flour by weight. It stays in the fridge during the week. We pull it out Friday morning, feed it midday and night and it's ready to go in the morning a repeat for Sunday. Then it gets a small feeding and goes back in the fridge. It can stay there for up to a few weeks. The pancakes are excellent and light I believe because the yeast digests much of the flour. You don't have that heavy feeling after eating them. The waffles are the best I've had anywhere. I have a one-page spreadsheet that has the feeding recipe and schedule for various batch sizes and the recipes for the waffles and pancakes if anyone is interested. We also make kefir soda from water kefir grains, which is really good. Naturally carbonated soda that's not too sweet and is probiotic.
NVRM 8y ago
Cooking recipe on github top ranked on hacker news. --RIP HACKER--
sebular 8y ago
Being a programmer who recently started making sourdough, this is nice to see. But I have to admit that I clicked because I saw Github + sourdough and thought that someone had coded an app to help you track weights and timing!
hourislate 8y ago
Off on a tangent here but if your ever in Toronto, Canada and you like bread, visit Dimpflmeier http://www.dimpflmeierbakery.com/ http://www.dimpflmeierbakery.com/ or Future Bakery https://www.futurebakery.com/ https://www.futurebakery.com/ down the street. Both are Factory Bakeries open to the public and make some of the best Sourdough Rye and bread I've ever had. Wish we had something like this in TX...
bitL 8y ago
Hey, how do I clone source code? All I get are some Markdown files :( I'd like to compile and execute it quickly as I am hungry! Thanks!
- Moru 8y ago
  Carefull for what you wish, might get spaghetti!
- hendricius 8y ago
  You can also speed up the process and have your bread ready in 1 hour. You just have to kneed the dough way more. When I have guests I use my machine to kneed the dough.
  - bitL 8y ago
    Where can I get a dough coprocessor? Can't see any on eBay :(
sutterbomb 8y ago
Anyone that’s interested in this and looking for a good short fiction read, pick up Sourdough by Robin Sloan. It’s a fun little tale set in the Bay Area about someone who picks up bread making as a hobby and things get weird.
raintrees 8y ago
My wife has kept a sourdough starter going for almost 3 years now, including us being gone for 3 weeks - Fridge slows down/temporarily stops the process. The extra that gets taken out each night during a feeding is now used to make sourdough pancakes - Refrigerate then warm up when hungry. I do not see baking temps mentioned, she uses cast iron dutch ovens with lids, something like 15 minutes at 500 degrees, lid on, 15 minutes at 450 degrees lid off, then another 30 or so minutes lid off at 400 degrees. Definitely scored. She is not available right now to correct me, so be careful if using these steps. Many recipes vary, here is one that is close to what I vaguely remember: http://www.bakersandbest.com/2012/06/10/sourdough-so-simple-a-spartan-could-make-it/ http://www.bakersandbest.com/2012/06/10/sourdough-so-simple-... And she will use no other flour, just King Arthur Bread Flour. Although once in a while she does mix in other types of King Arthur flour, such as Whole Wheat or Rye. YMMV Edit: She corrected me: 20 minutes at 500 degrees lid on, 10 minutes at 450 degrees lid on, 15 minutes at 450 degrees lid off. And she said the rising will break the bread unless scored (giving the rise a semi-controlled path). When I see the biga being made, I know the next day is folding, and the following day the house is going to smell wonderful. :)
nanomonkey 8y ago
I suggest starting with fresh ground rye flour as it has more yeast on the berries surface. If you can't grind it fresh yourself from rye berries, then purchase something reasonably fresh like Bob's Red Mill. I consistently get a new starter up and running in 4 days, after the fourth day I mix in other (wheat) flour. Second suggestion is to start with a smaller amount (say 15 grams) and feed double whatever you have with each feeding (equal parts by weight flour and water). Throw out some starter when the feedings get too much (remember you're doubling each time). The water should be left to dechlorinate in an open container overnight. I have a pitcher with a cloth over it that I keep on a shelf for feedings and making bread. White flour and lower temperatures will slow down your starter activity (useful at times). Whole grain flours and warmer temps will speed up your starter activity.
antoineMoPa 8y ago
Cooking/Making bread is fun like coding, except that its tastier and will still bake if you make tiny mistakes.
DrBazza 8y ago
Not unrelated, yeast came from China apparently: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-018-0030-5 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-018-0030-5 https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/04/yeast-sequencing-china/557930/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/04/yeast-se...
nkkollaw 8y ago
I make this often to make żurek--a Polish soup. Basically, instead of putting it into bread you add it to a broth with sausages, bring it to a boil for two minutes or until it gets dense, and it's ready. One of my favorite.
yumraj 8y ago
For those in the US which flour do you typically use? Anyone had any success with whole wheat sourdough, and is so with which flour?
gmac 8y ago
If you're looking for some more guidance on how to bake the loaf itself, I've been making bread in the following way several times a week for most of the last seven years, and it is easily adapted to sourdough: http://mackerron.com/bread http://mackerron.com/bread
haloboy777 8y ago
I'm still trying to figure out how did something edible grabbed such attention on HN??
mch82 8y ago
How about that 122 year old sour dough starter mentioned in the recipe! The starter has been passed between multiple families and across generations. Is anyone familiar with starter? Would a unique flavor or anything like that carry with the bread all those years?
donjoe 8y ago
My mom's been baking sourdough bread once a week since I can remember. We've been a family of 6 killing at least a whole leaf a day. The awesome thing about sourdough bread compared to yeast or yeast/sourdough based mixtures is the ability to stay fresh for way longer. The neighbors would show up and ask for a piece of the mother dough for their occasional bread-baking experiments. While studying I really missed 'proper' bread - especially during my time living abroad. I've been baking my own bread ever since, too :)
gricardo99 8y ago
Have to mention http://www.sourdo.com http://www.sourdo.com You can get cultures from all over the world. But it’s also worth trying to start your own from scratch. As a complete noob I had some great success.
irremediable 8y ago
I've been getting into baking bread lately, so it's very cool to see an article like this on HN. That said, if you're new to baking, I wouldn't recommend this as a starting point unless you strongly prefer sourdough to other breads. Sourdough is trickier, and this recipe is quite minimalist: lots of ingredient ratios and timings should actually vary with your ingredients, equipment and supposedly even atmospheric conditions. I'd recommend one of two loaves for fellow newbies: a bloomer or soda bread. The bloomer requires more effort and time, and is a fun way to try out all the basics of baking: kneading, yeast, proving, shaping. It'll give you a loaf like the kind you're probably familiar with, albeit at a higher quality than supermarket bread. Soda bread is very easy to get good results from and very fast to bake. It doesn't require kneading, and doesn't use yeast -- instead using bicarbonate of soda and buttermilk. You can substitute buttermilk with anything milky and acidic; I use soy milk mixed with lemon juice. This is a great way to get quality bread with minimal effort, and you can make it sweet or savoury according to your preferences. I'll post some recipes later... Edit: recipes in my reply to this comment.
- irremediable 8y ago
  These Paul Hollywood recipes are a pretty good starting point. They don't mention the buttermilk trick, but it's easy enough: squeeze half a lemon into your milk. The nice thing with Hollywood's bloomer recipe is that lots of people have tried it, and share tips for debugging problems you may encounter. Bloomer: https://www.bbc.com/food/recipes/paul_hollywoods_bloomer_84636 https://www.bbc.com/food/recipes/paul_hollywoods_bloomer_846... Soda bread: https://www.bbc.com/food/recipes/soda_bread_24837 https://www.bbc.com/food/recipes/soda_bread_24837
bootsz 8y ago
> Learn how to master the art of baking the programmer way. If you love programming, you will also enjoy breaking some bread. As a hobbyist sourdough baker and professional software engineer I definitely think there is some truth to this. For me bread baking is a great complementary pursuit to programming. It is entirely manual and rooted in the physical world, which makes it a great way to "unplug" and decompress. But it also requires a similar type of analytical skills and problem solving mindset that developers tend to have. If you are interested in getting into baking sourdough I would highly recommend this blog as a resource: https://www.theperfectloaf.com https://www.theperfectloaf.com The tutorials and recipes are very beginner-friendly and have tons of hi-res photos. I own about 6 books on bread baking but would say this site is probably a better overall resource for a beginner. Interestingly, the author of the site is himself also a software engineer. It definitely shows through in the precision of his recipes :)

619 points by hendricius 8y ago

pomosly 8y ago

Good Amount of Alcohol - What Quantity are we talking about here?

tenf-sefhu 8y ago

No thank you

poulsbohemian 8y ago

Nicely done, excellent pictures.

hendricius 8y ago
Thanks. I usually do the baking, my fiancee does the pictures :D. I love to bake and a/b test the different doughs.

chrissnell 8y ago

I had a starter for several years that was descended from the one kept by Dick Proenekke [1]. He lived alone in a cabin that he built himself--by hand--deep in the Alaskan bush. He made sourdough pancakes daily and his original starter came from a friend of his back in town. Someone related to this person sells the starter (on a wooden spoon) that you can buy [2] and use to create your own descendant. There's a fascinating PBS documentary on him that you can watch on YouTube, if you're interested: [3] [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Proenneke https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Proenneke [2] http://richardproenneke.com/heirloom_sourdough_starter_spoon http://richardproenneke.com/heirloom_sourdough_starter_spoon [3] https://youtu.be/iYJKd0rkKss https://youtu.be/iYJKd0rkKss

hendricius 8y ago
Really interesting, thanks for the links. I would be curious to see how that starter behaves differently then mine. I really need a good microscope to analyse the different doughs in detail.
- etrautmann 8y ago
  I have a colleague who sequences the genomes of the yeast in her sourdough starter to characterize how it changes over time :)
  - hendricius 8y ago
    That's amazing! What are here most important learnings? TLDR :D.
rhcom2 8y ago
That is an absolutely incredible combination of food and history. How did you like the results?
- chrissnell 8y ago
  The starter was great but it's just sourdough starter. My palette is not refined enough to taste the difference between various sourdough cultures. Use the instructions in OP's link and it will probably be just as good. I think it's neat to have a starter from a place that's special to you. You could make one in your hometown, or in a favorite vacation spot, a place famous for its sourdough (like San Francisco), etc.
  - hendricius 8y ago
    Here in Germany many people trade starters across villages. It would be interesting to have a scientific study on the differences. Maybe there is different bacteria/yeast in the different villages?
    - lostlogin 8y ago
      The type of flour and the temperature it’s kept at make the most difference imho. You can notice a change in the smell as seasons change.
      - hendricius 8y ago
        That would be really interesting to have in the recipes as well. Did you conduct any A/B tests?
        lostlogin 8y ago
        More or less - bulking up the starter and putting it in the fridge (7 degrees) but leaving some in a new batch of bread at 2o degrees. If you try bulking up a starter with high grade white flour you notice a difference pretty fast too.
DrScump 8y ago
He does his own narration in the film ("Alone in the Wilderness") as well.
- omilu 8y ago
  That's not him, the narrator is Bob Swerer Jr who reads from Dicks autobiography. There are recordings of Dick you can watch and he sounds nothing like the narrators voice in Alone in the wilderness.
tomcooks 8y ago
He also contributed science with data taken from the field during his outings, when he wasn't busy being a badass
bgaluszka 8y ago
Correct me if I'm wrong but if you get sourdough made at some other place after couple of weeks your local culture will take over thus sourdough will loose that other place uniqueness so to speak. But I'm not an expert just something I remember when I was interested in sourdough and pizza making.
- lmilcin 8y ago
  You are correct. Your method of keeping the starter will over time select the culture that is best suited for your method of keeping, from available gene pool.
  - vanderZwan 8y ago
    Reminds me of a story I heard of a beer brand (forgot which one) that opened a new factory which was heavily modernised, but decided to take the wooden roof from the old one and install it above the copper kettles in the new location to make sure the environmental bacterial cultures would remain the same to keep their "flavour identity"
  - saalweachter 8y ago
    Anecdotally, my experience has been that while yeast cultures are durable, you can also get some maladaptive selection going from time to time; eg, if you are too irregular in feeding your starter, you might end up with a slow-growing culture rather than the fast-growing culture you get from feeding your starter twice a day and want for a good rise. Your starter will still be alive, but not as useful until you start feeding it constantly again and get that fast-growing culture established again.
- bonesss 8y ago
  I think that's a feature, not a bug :) The sourdough that comes from your kitchen is going to be unique to that place. Even moving across town can have a huge difference. It's a built-in thumbprint that makes sure that no one can ever really make grandmas pizza bottoms, or baguettes, quite the same...

slimbods 8y ago

Nice article, thanks. Losing your starter can be painful as it takes at least a week to build a new one. So it's good to have a backup; build a bit extra then freeze it. Should you lose your starter, you can defrost the backup and carry on right away. Especially handy if you go on holiday or can't bake for a few weeks.

hendricius 8y ago
Wouldn't freezing kill the bacteria and yeast?
- seanhunter 8y ago
  It's pretty hardy and goes dormant. You only need a few alive to grow a healthy starter back when you need it again, so every now and then I make an extra amount, mix in a little more flour than normal, spread it in blobs on an aluminium foil-covered baking tray and stick the whole thing in the freezer. After a few hours I come back, pop them off the foil and into a freezer bag. When reviving, I try to use two blobs from two separate bags just in case one has died. I put them in tepid water for a bit, then add flour and mix and I'm back in business. My starter was given to me by Dan Lepard[1] (the end-boss of breadmaking) during a sourdough masterclass that I was given as a present. I thoroughly recommend this as a present if you have a friend or loved one who is interested in making bread btw. It's fantastic and you get payback in tasty loaves for many years. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Lepard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Lepard
  - achamayou 8y ago
    If it's just a few weeks, I've found the fridge to be fine. It will take a couple of feeds over 48h to re-activate completely, but it's otherwise ok. If you start from scratch, you can get going in 3/4 days if you're willing to throw in a bit of honey or maple syrup at first (1tsp). Without it, it does seem to take a week.
  - lostlogin 8y ago
    Mine lives in the fridge and works just fine. A month or two in the freezer once by accident was fine too.

caublestone 8y ago

A couple left academia to pursue their passion for cultures and turned their treasures into a market: http://www.sourdo.com http://www.sourdo.com Apparently they run into some sticky situations carrying dried yellowish brown powder around in aluminum foil. In Saudi Arabia they were detained at the airport for hours while authorities verified that the sketchy powder was in fact mostly harmless yeast.

toredash 8y ago
Mostly?
- sjwright 8y ago
  Presumably the remainder was harmless non-yeast.
lostlogin 8y ago
Another misunderstanding - I know someone who had a baby sitter mistake the starter for yogurt and eat some. I’m sure that was an unpleasant surprise.

keithpeter 8y ago

Nice guide. I have tried a couple of sourdoughs but mine nearly always end up with a lot of alcohol (acetone smell, bitter liquid). As OA says, you can just scrape the liquid off the top and feed the sourdough to refresh it, but then the bread I bake has a slight acetoney taste. Suggestion: add a description of the sourdough after each day so people have a rough idea if their sourdough is growing. The photo helps - you get a lot of bubbles after around day 3 or 4 and the volume doubles.

hendricius 8y ago
Thanks for the suggestion. I think what you describe is natural. Don't worry. As you feed the mother dough from time to time that taste will diminish.
bonesss 8y ago
Fermentation goes through four phases, roughly paraphrased into: wheatey, champagne, alcohol, vomit. You're describing a starter that is too 'old'. Very 'young' starters have little flavour, and then get sweet and honey-like before getting souuuuuur. Personally I'd recommend just leaving it on the counter and going to a 24 hour or 12 hour feeding schedule. Flavour: you can absolutely scrape the bad stuff off the top and feed the starter to keep it alive. But if you're going to bake, remember that you're blending out the original product... If you start with some 'alcohol' or 'vomit' and mix out half, bread made the next day will be 33% bad-stuff. You want to mix out for say a week or so to get back to mostly tastey happy stuff. Also: not sure if this applies, but in general making a mature starter is a 5 week process from scratch. Bubbles in the first few days are generally bad bacteria dying in the container you're using... You can still bake with it, but keep going for a week and a half and see what kind of lovely smells start coming :)
- keithpeter 8y ago
  Been through all four, not too much on the vomit stage though. Must have another bash at it soon, thanks.
- convolvatron 8y ago

th0ma5 8y ago

Get some starter for the price of a stamp: http://carlsfriends.net/source.html http://carlsfriends.net/source.html Or choose from many others for sale: http://www.sourdo.com/our-sourdough-cultures-2/ http://www.sourdo.com/our-sourdough-cultures-2/

hendricius 8y ago
You can also go to many local bakeries. Here in Germany the are happy to give you some starter for free. But I still think making your own one is so easy, it's 14 minutes of time over a week.
- th0ma5 8y ago
  100% agree. Among my favorite things was growing a starter from scratch.

drsim 8y ago

If you live in Denmark, the Meyers bakeries will give you free starter, just bring a container: https://www.meyersmad.dk/om-meyers/meyers-virksomheder/meyers-bageri/ https://www.meyersmad.dk/om-meyers/meyers-virksomheder/meyer...

flyGuyOnTheSly 8y ago
That is truly amazing! How old is their starter culture, do you know?
- drsim 8y ago
  I don't unfortunately know. Their Purpurhvedebrød [1] is very nice with walnuts and cranberries. It got me thinking I'd like to try making it. The recipe mentions 'young sourdough'. [1] https://www.meyersmad.dk/lav-mad/opskrifter/purpurhvedebrod/ https://www.meyersmad.dk/lav-mad/opskrifter/purpurhvedebrod/
dmos62 8y ago
Same everywhere where there's artisan bread-making. Just ask if they have some and they'll gladly gift it to you or tell you when to come back.
- cpfohl 8y ago
  I started sour-doughing last fall (My wife liked it better than my brewing hobby since it took shorter chunks of time and she liked the final product). My local bakery actually wouldn't give or sell me a starter because, and I quote, "I'd feel bad selling something like that, and it's too easy to start yourself". He then gave me instructions for starting the starter myself. It's been fun, and way less fussy than the internet likes to make it out to be. Except this page. Y'all seem to have the same abusive relationship to your starters as I do,.
adamcharnock 8y ago
I believe this actually used to be written into law in the UK. I don't think it is technically law any more, but regardless my dad finds that bakeries are always very happy to hand over some live yeast. Not sure if that is the same as a sourdough starter though...

hahla 8y ago

I find it funny that this is post is popular because the title includes “an engineers guide.” As a hobbyist bread and pizza maker there are so many amazing resources across pizzamaking.com, YouTube and reddit that have years of community input I’m almost insulted that this is more popular.

jvkersch 8y ago
I agree but I do like the fact that it's written in Markdown and hosted on GitHub. I don't know many recipe books that allow for issues to be raised and that accept pull requests ;)
- calinet6 8y ago
  Nor many that need to ;) FWSY is pretty flawless as a whole work, and much more depth than this.
hendricius 8y ago
I really tried to skip all the mambojambo. Most recipes do not go into detail to answer the question of the why. It's almost like using any kind library when programming. You don't know the internals. My goal however is to really deep dive and actually go through the process of how the internals of that library work.
- lostlogin 8y ago
  My bread method is the opposite - how many steps can I skip and get a great result. The answer for me has resulted in a loaf started just now (with a 10 year old starter). It’s evening now and I’ll cook it tomorrow at midday. Edit: I’m talking about a bread recipe, not a starter one, which is clearly an important difference.
slow_donkey 8y ago
Pizzamaking.com was one of my first communities and it was eye-opening to see how passionate people were about their craft even as hobbyists. I guess I shouldn't be surprised it's still active given their tenacity and older audience.

eps 8y ago

Wait, wait... there's no salt in the sourdough?

cup-of-tea 8y ago
No mention of salt in whole page. That is a huge omission. It's not even bread without salt. If you follow this recipe it will taste awful. Use salt if you want your bread to be like bakery bread. And there is no "salt to taste" in baking. 10g per 500g of flour is a good start but the point you add it is important so check a proper recipe.
- hendricius 8y ago
  No salt at all in the sour dough. When baking you will add salt. I like around 2%. But in the mother sour dough you do not want any salt. This link is only about how to get your actual mother sour dough, not baking! That's still TODO and will follow up later. Edit: 2% of the flour's weight in salt. Let's say you bake 700 grams of flour (500 grams flour, 200 grams sour dough) then you would add 14 grams of salt. Note please that this is my personal preference. It could be you prefer more or less salt.
  - slow_donkey 8y ago
    2% bp not total weight. Should probably clarify since this isn't a baking audience
    - hendricius 8y ago
      Thanks
    - acqq 8y ago
      > 2% bp not total weight. Where bp stands for... what? > Should probably clarify since this isn't a baking audience. Yes please.
      - 8y ago

cup-of-tea 8y ago

Baking is a surprisingly geeky thing to do. While cooking is more about knowing your ingredients and tasting as you go, baking absolutely requires strict adherence to a recipe. I can't actually remember why I started baking bread. But when I first started the product was horrible. I would let the dough rise in a warm place and "make it big" as quickly as possible. For me the rising was just about CO_2 so it made sense. It took me a long time to realise that time is a crucial ingredient. You want the rise to take more time, not less. The difference is astonishing. I never had much luck with sourdough but I actually prefer the taste of "fresh" bread anyway in the French style. Sourdough is in fashion right now but don't think using cultured yeast gives an inferior product!

hendricius 8y ago
Excactly. You mentioned a good point. It's a different kind of taste simply. However you can replace the yeast in any regular recipe with sour dough. I failed so many times. But usually there is a good explanation to why your baking failed. I love it, you really have to use your brain.
jvkersch 8y ago
My bread has increased in quality so much by (a) mixing the ingredients (without the yeast, or with only a little bit of the sourdough starter) the night before (i.e. making a poolish), and (b) taking a full day to prepare: you knead a little, let it rest for a couple of hours, give it a few turns, rest, etc. As a result, the bread is much more flavorful, and the flavor is more delicate: not too sour, not too sweet, and you can chew it and feel the flavors develop.
- atomical 8y ago
  My bread has much better flavor if I let the dough sit in the fridge for four days.
  - slow_donkey 8y ago
    I do this also for time control. I can effectively bake whenever convenient if it's half dormant in the fridge.

exDM69 8y ago

Excellent article! We've been baking sourdough bread at home for about a year now. When the starter is done, baking bread is a lot less work than when using yeast. The work is spread over a few days but there are no laborious processes involved.

hendricius 8y ago
Exactly. This strategy has been used by people since we first invented bread. I always think we should use it, it's ready for the taking.

alpb 8y ago

I am afraid your sourdough in the pictures is a bit unconventional. It did not raise as much I expected. Did you use a Dutch oven? Also some useful links: https://www.reddit.com/r/Breadit/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Breadit/ https://youtu.be/yg5nLQVg4VY https://youtu.be/yg5nLQVg4VY

lmilcin 8y ago

Recipe is fine for sure, and I was doing this for a long time, but some time ago I have learned superior way of keeping sourdough. The oft cited recipe asks for feeding it every day and also keeping something like 100% hydration. Remembering to feed it every day is a major hassle for me. My sourdough is a piece of bread dough that is enough to use for my next batch. Basically, after first rise and before I shape my bread, I will cut something between 50-200g of dough, put it in a glass container with a small hole for air circulation and store it in the fridge. I will not feed the starter. Next time I make bread I will take it out of the fridge and mix it with measured amount of warm water that is going to be used for the bread. Advantages: - no separate feeding, you cut a piece of bread, and you use it as part of next one, - hydration and salt level matches your bread recipe which means you can add way more or less starter and the bread will still have the same hydration and salt level, - the hydration and salt level makes it stable in a fridge for a very long time, I have tested up to 3 weeks with no ill effects and I decided not to stretch it any more. I was only able to keep the traditional 100% hydration no-salt starter for only about a week or risk it spoiling. I also use a spreadsheet to aid calculations (I plan to make android app but I somehow never have time to finish it): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1lSBl3kjAeitBUH75DEIRM95ZX94Tgk-miApmWdpHfUA/edit?usp=sharing https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1lSBl3kjAeitBUH75DEIR...

vanderZwan 8y ago
Have you considered opening an issue/sending a pull request on the github page? ;)
- lmilcin 8y ago
  Excellent point, don't know why I did not think about doing this. I will do it tomorrow, I have a long drive before me today with wife and 3 kids.
lostlogin 8y ago
I’ve got a lazier option. Get some starter, add 70g of flour, 100g water and leave it overnight. Then stick it in the fridge and use it like you’d use a very slow working shop bought yeast (and maybe 20g at a time). Don’t feed it till it gets low. Treat it mean, any more effort on it is wasted. Mine’s coming up on 10 years old now and is just fine. I accidentally put it in the freezer and lost it for a month, I think it improved it.

ktpsns 8y ago

As a German, I appreciate this. I don't like the idea of nations, but in cultural terms, bread is one of the best innovations in this country. I always miss high quality bread when going to the US.

lostlogin 8y ago
Your doing down your beer and desserts.
SideburnsOfDoom 8y ago
It seems like places like the US and UK have swung between extremes: first a long period when beer was nothing but bland macrobrew: Bud light, Heineken etc, and then a growing counter-movement of artisanal craft beer. Same with bread, Artisanal Craft Sourdough bread is a thing now.

Qantourisc 8y ago

My brain seems to recall you want to keep your sourdough for 2 weeks before using it, to make sure there are no harmful strains left in your culture. But I cannot find the resource atm.

collyw 8y ago

Would this have appeared here is it wasn't hosted on github? Don't get me wrong, I am quite interested in fermentation (I make my own sauerkraut for probiotics), but it seems strange for it to appear at number one on the front page of HN.

ttsda 8y ago
From the README: >Learn how to master the art of baking the programmer way. If you love programming, you will also enjoy breaking some bread. A/B test, iterate and ultimately become a self taught baker. This repo is dedicated to becoming your bread manifesto with useful tricks and hacks. Furthermore the goal is to illustrate how easy making bread is and that you can get started today without expensive tools.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
kzrdude 8y ago
What's number one is always rapidly changing though, so it doesn't mean much.
unreal37 8y ago
Here's one secret to getting on News YCombinator.

mtrovo 8y ago

I love this geek / hobbist way to approach cooking. Do you know any other books / websites / youtube channels with the same format? I enjoy watching French Guy Cooking [1] (he even has a video series about making your own bread which is quite good) but never found other sources with the same format. [1] https://www.youtube.com/user/FrenchGuyCooking/featured https://www.youtube.com/user/FrenchGuyCooking/featured

washadjeffmad 8y ago
Look into food science and biotech journals and other industrial literature. Heston Blumenthal's cookbooks also read more like lab manuals than most, and he takes advantage of common scientific instrumentation to create precise and reproducible recipes. Just learning basic lab methods is enough to make you a significantly more insightful cook. If you're mostly interested in bread, I found Daniel Leader's books to be excellent guides. "Local Breads" in particular goes into the many different levain and biga/sponge methods and the regional sourdoughs that use them.
poooogles 8y ago
The modernist cuisine books might be up your street then. https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=modernist+cuisine&tag=hydrukspg-21&index=aps&hvadid=186577499467&hvpos=1t1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=13455683551674071624&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=e&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9045886&hvtargid=kwd-20138705597&ref=pd_sl_1g5h4lz830_e https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=modernist+cuisi...
- FredrikMeyer 8y ago
  He has now also written books about bread! https://www.amazon.co.uk/Modernist-Bread-Art-Science-Cuisine/dp/0982761058/ref=la_B003TG79GU_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1524931038&sr=1-1 https://www.amazon.co.uk/Modernist-Bread-Art-Science-Cuisine...

punnerud 8y ago

Been thinking about an automatic machine to make bread this way. Everything you need is flour, water and power if you have the machine.

hendricius 8y ago
Yes, but it is really to to have one machine to rule them all. It also depends on each flour you are using. The machine would work better in some countries than others.

nwatson 8y ago

"As a baker it is your job to ensure that [the yeast and bacteria] feel happy and enjoy their home." ... until you impose hell upon them in the form of an oven. That is one awkward "light-hearted" sentence.

tclancy 8y ago

Tempted to file a bug report that simply reads, “Bacteria”.

nautilus12 8y ago

"If you don't feed your mother dough it will starve eventually as it has no more food." I read this out of context with hilarious interpretation.

nimbius 8y ago

while this is an excellent introduction to creating a sourdough starter this doesnt cover oven temperatures, bulk ferment, shaping, or the obvious use of a banneton for final rise. There is every possibility you'll be able to create this starter and still end up with a pancake. The final picture in the link is absurd. The crumb is too wet to do much more than gum up a bread knife and the crust is undefined. in the first picture, the crust is underdeveloped suggesting low oven temperatures or a cold kitchen. Id like to clarify this recipe by adding the following: 80% hydration of the loaf if you're making a rustic/boule and to promote proper gas development in the gluten structure. 65% for sandwich sourdough loaves formed in a pan (and a prayer). 450F oven temp for 45 minutes. 12 hour rest after cooking to allow gluten to properly finalize. 1.8% salt in accordance with the EU health commission recommendations for salt content of artisan breads. remember to subtract your preferment hydration from the total fermentation. that is, if you start with a 100% hydrated 200g starter, then 100g of water must be deleted from your 80% final hydration. if you dont have the patience for sourdough --and frankly a commercial steam proofer-- then 1-2% yeast by weight is the general recommendation for white bread. If you've never baked before, sourdough is enough to turn you off to the idea of anything but store bought. it is not as easy as this post makes it seem.

tonyarkles 8y ago
Just to make sure we're clear on this, since I'm relatively new to breadmaking and have so far only followed exact recipes... 80% hydration refers to mass ratios, correct? 80% hydration = 100g flour to 80g water?
- hendricius 8y ago
  Exactly.
tsieling 8y ago
Thanks for adding pretty much the same things I wanted to say, but doing so better. Getting good at leavened sourdough takes time and practice, but it is absolutely worth the journey. There is a world of variety and frustration and joy and surprise in just flour+water+salt and whatever wild yeast is in your air.

DanAndersen 8y ago

If anyone is looking for frugal yet meaningful gifts for Christmas, etc, I found great success by making gifts of my sourdough starter to some close friends and family. Some time beforehand, I started to split up and increase the amount of starter I was growing, then printed little laminated labels with instructions for feeding the starter (and an example recommended bread recipe that was easy to make), and attached it to the mason jars in which I was storing the starter.

notyourday 8y ago

I'm surprised no one mentioned Alton Brown: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqxkMqsEQI0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqxkMqsEQI0

verelo 8y ago

On the topic of bread for a moment: I recently started making my own bread. I bought a book on the topic by Ken Forkish "Flour water salt yeast", and I've fallen in love with the process. The recipes are great, but the first few chapters that cover his journey to making bread, a bit of the science behind it and talking about the less scientific components of what almost sounds like "luck" (Really, just super detailed experimentation and careful repetition once you get the variables right) in the process of getting the perfect rise. I've got to admit, i'm not a big reader, but there is something about the way Ken put this book together that I really enjoy. Maybe it's that he worked for IBM before becoming a baker and we both think like technical individuals? Maybe it's just good writing and I need to experience more of it? Whatever it is, I'd encourage you to buy the book...i've got no skin in the game, but bread making is great and his methods are slow but fun (My first bread took 18 hours to go through the whole process).

calinet6 8y ago
^ 100% agree, that's the best book. It does a great job of explaining the exact reasons, science, and tradeoffs between the critical factors, and you come away with not just instructions, but a deeper understanding of bread and how it really works and why. It's a really great book.
- MegaDeKay 8y ago
  Jeffrey Hamelman's "Bread" is also a great book. He really digs into the science of bread, and he also offers up an incredibly wide variety of techniques that will really expand your repertoire. Unfortunately, I can't come up with the dough (ha ha) for Modernist Bread...
moosehawk 8y ago
Second "Flour Water Salt Yeast". I've been baking bread for a few years now following his techniques with great success. He also has a 2nd book called "The Elements of Pizza" that I highly recommend. I had a similar experience when starting. The process seemed time consuming and complicated, but now I can bake a couple loaves any day of the week with a small amount of planning and little effort/thought. In both books he provides techniques and recipes for being able to start baking bread and pizzas with little or no upfront investment (some containers, a couple bannetons for bread and a peel + stone for pizzas). The best part of the process is experimenting with your own recipes. Here's a couple shots of some recent loaves and pizzas I've baked recently: https://i.imgur.com/0cKI4ad.jpg https://i.imgur.com/0cKI4ad.jpg https://i.imgur.com/iMkzJJB.jpg https://i.imgur.com/iMkzJJB.jpg https://i.imgur.com/ZEIlGy9.png https://i.imgur.com/ZEIlGy9.png https://i.imgur.com/gr0qO2t.png https://i.imgur.com/gr0qO2t.png

caffeine5150 8y ago

I started making sourdough out of law school back in the late 90's when I got Nancy Silverton's book on the topic (La Brea Bakery Founder). I baked bread back then, but found it too exacting and inconsistent. I began again years later after starting a family and almost every weekend we make the amazing sourdough pancakes and waffles in Silverton's book. We maintain a starter that's 60% water and 40% flour by weight. It stays in the fridge during the week. We pull it out Friday morning, feed it midday and night and it's ready to go in the morning a repeat for Sunday. Then it gets a small feeding and goes back in the fridge. It can stay there for up to a few weeks. The pancakes are excellent and light I believe because the yeast digests much of the flour. You don't have that heavy feeling after eating them. The waffles are the best I've had anywhere. I have a one-page spreadsheet that has the feeding recipe and schedule for various batch sizes and the recipes for the waffles and pancakes if anyone is interested. We also make kefir soda from water kefir grains, which is really good. Naturally carbonated soda that's not too sweet and is probiotic.

NVRM 8y ago

Cooking recipe on github top ranked on hacker news. --RIP HACKER--

sebular 8y ago

Being a programmer who recently started making sourdough, this is nice to see. But I have to admit that I clicked because I saw Github + sourdough and thought that someone had coded an app to help you track weights and timing!

hourislate 8y ago

Off on a tangent here but if your ever in Toronto, Canada and you like bread, visit Dimpflmeier http://www.dimpflmeierbakery.com/ http://www.dimpflmeierbakery.com/ or Future Bakery https://www.futurebakery.com/ https://www.futurebakery.com/ down the street. Both are Factory Bakeries open to the public and make some of the best Sourdough Rye and bread I've ever had. Wish we had something like this in TX...

bitL 8y ago

Hey, how do I clone source code? All I get are some Markdown files :( I'd like to compile and execute it quickly as I am hungry! Thanks!

Moru 8y ago
Carefull for what you wish, might get spaghetti!
hendricius 8y ago
You can also speed up the process and have your bread ready in 1 hour. You just have to kneed the dough way more. When I have guests I use my machine to kneed the dough.
- bitL 8y ago
  Where can I get a dough coprocessor? Can't see any on eBay :(

sutterbomb 8y ago

Anyone that’s interested in this and looking for a good short fiction read, pick up Sourdough by Robin Sloan. It’s a fun little tale set in the Bay Area about someone who picks up bread making as a hobby and things get weird.

raintrees 8y ago

My wife has kept a sourdough starter going for almost 3 years now, including us being gone for 3 weeks - Fridge slows down/temporarily stops the process. The extra that gets taken out each night during a feeding is now used to make sourdough pancakes - Refrigerate then warm up when hungry. I do not see baking temps mentioned, she uses cast iron dutch ovens with lids, something like 15 minutes at 500 degrees, lid on, 15 minutes at 450 degrees lid off, then another 30 or so minutes lid off at 400 degrees. Definitely scored. She is not available right now to correct me, so be careful if using these steps. Many recipes vary, here is one that is close to what I vaguely remember: http://www.bakersandbest.com/2012/06/10/sourdough-so-simple-a-spartan-could-make-it/ http://www.bakersandbest.com/2012/06/10/sourdough-so-simple-... And she will use no other flour, just King Arthur Bread Flour. Although once in a while she does mix in other types of King Arthur flour, such as Whole Wheat or Rye. YMMV Edit: She corrected me: 20 minutes at 500 degrees lid on, 10 minutes at 450 degrees lid on, 15 minutes at 450 degrees lid off. And she said the rising will break the bread unless scored (giving the rise a semi-controlled path). When I see the biga being made, I know the next day is folding, and the following day the house is going to smell wonderful. :)

nanomonkey 8y ago

I suggest starting with fresh ground rye flour as it has more yeast on the berries surface. If you can't grind it fresh yourself from rye berries, then purchase something reasonably fresh like Bob's Red Mill. I consistently get a new starter up and running in 4 days, after the fourth day I mix in other (wheat) flour. Second suggestion is to start with a smaller amount (say 15 grams) and feed double whatever you have with each feeding (equal parts by weight flour and water). Throw out some starter when the feedings get too much (remember you're doubling each time). The water should be left to dechlorinate in an open container overnight. I have a pitcher with a cloth over it that I keep on a shelf for feedings and making bread. White flour and lower temperatures will slow down your starter activity (useful at times). Whole grain flours and warmer temps will speed up your starter activity.

antoineMoPa 8y ago

Cooking/Making bread is fun like coding, except that its tastier and will still bake if you make tiny mistakes.

DrBazza 8y ago

Not unrelated, yeast came from China apparently: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-018-0030-5 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-018-0030-5 https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/04/yeast-sequencing-china/557930/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/04/yeast-se...

nkkollaw 8y ago

I make this often to make żurek--a Polish soup. Basically, instead of putting it into bread you add it to a broth with sausages, bring it to a boil for two minutes or until it gets dense, and it's ready. One of my favorite.

yumraj 8y ago

For those in the US which flour do you typically use? Anyone had any success with whole wheat sourdough, and is so with which flour?

gmac 8y ago

If you're looking for some more guidance on how to bake the loaf itself, I've been making bread in the following way several times a week for most of the last seven years, and it is easily adapted to sourdough: http://mackerron.com/bread http://mackerron.com/bread

haloboy777 8y ago

I'm still trying to figure out how did something edible grabbed such attention on HN??

mch82 8y ago

How about that 122 year old sour dough starter mentioned in the recipe! The starter has been passed between multiple families and across generations. Is anyone familiar with starter? Would a unique flavor or anything like that carry with the bread all those years?

donjoe 8y ago

My mom's been baking sourdough bread once a week since I can remember. We've been a family of 6 killing at least a whole leaf a day. The awesome thing about sourdough bread compared to yeast or yeast/sourdough based mixtures is the ability to stay fresh for way longer. The neighbors would show up and ask for a piece of the mother dough for their occasional bread-baking experiments. While studying I really missed 'proper' bread - especially during my time living abroad. I've been baking my own bread ever since, too :)

gricardo99 8y ago

Have to mention http://www.sourdo.com http://www.sourdo.com You can get cultures from all over the world. But it’s also worth trying to start your own from scratch. As a complete noob I had some great success.

irremediable 8y ago

I've been getting into baking bread lately, so it's very cool to see an article like this on HN. That said, if you're new to baking, I wouldn't recommend this as a starting point unless you strongly prefer sourdough to other breads. Sourdough is trickier, and this recipe is quite minimalist: lots of ingredient ratios and timings should actually vary with your ingredients, equipment and supposedly even atmospheric conditions. I'd recommend one of two loaves for fellow newbies: a bloomer or soda bread. The bloomer requires more effort and time, and is a fun way to try out all the basics of baking: kneading, yeast, proving, shaping. It'll give you a loaf like the kind you're probably familiar with, albeit at a higher quality than supermarket bread. Soda bread is very easy to get good results from and very fast to bake. It doesn't require kneading, and doesn't use yeast -- instead using bicarbonate of soda and buttermilk. You can substitute buttermilk with anything milky and acidic; I use soy milk mixed with lemon juice. This is a great way to get quality bread with minimal effort, and you can make it sweet or savoury according to your preferences. I'll post some recipes later... Edit: recipes in my reply to this comment.

irremediable 8y ago
These Paul Hollywood recipes are a pretty good starting point. They don't mention the buttermilk trick, but it's easy enough: squeeze half a lemon into your milk. The nice thing with Hollywood's bloomer recipe is that lots of people have tried it, and share tips for debugging problems you may encounter. Bloomer: https://www.bbc.com/food/recipes/paul_hollywoods_bloomer_84636 https://www.bbc.com/food/recipes/paul_hollywoods_bloomer_846... Soda bread: https://www.bbc.com/food/recipes/soda_bread_24837 https://www.bbc.com/food/recipes/soda_bread_24837

bootsz 8y ago

> Learn how to master the art of baking the programmer way. If you love programming, you will also enjoy breaking some bread. As a hobbyist sourdough baker and professional software engineer I definitely think there is some truth to this. For me bread baking is a great complementary pursuit to programming. It is entirely manual and rooted in the physical world, which makes it a great way to "unplug" and decompress. But it also requires a similar type of analytical skills and problem solving mindset that developers tend to have. If you are interested in getting into baking sourdough I would highly recommend this blog as a resource: https://www.theperfectloaf.com https://www.theperfectloaf.com The tutorials and recipes are very beginner-friendly and have tons of hi-res photos. I own about 6 books on bread baking but would say this site is probably a better overall resource for a beginner. Interestingly, the author of the site is himself also a software engineer. It definitely shows through in the precision of his recipes :)